He admitted guilt and has to stay in his home

[Pete Serotta]

Free enterprise....Ray this is just for you :D :D :D

NEWS ALERT
from The Wall Street Journal


Dec. 17, 2008

A bail hearing for Bernard Madoff was canceled after the money manager agreed to terms requested by the government, including home detention in his Manhattan apartment and a curfew of 7 p.m. to 9 a.m. Madoff, arrested last week on fraud charges for allegedly running a giant Ponzi scheme, will also be required to wear an electronically monitored ankle bracelet. His wife will surrender her passport and pledged properties she owns in Manhattan, Montauk, N.Y., and Palm Beach, Fla., to help secure the $10 million bond.

[soulspinner]

Crime does pay if your far enuff up the white collar ladder..........he wont end up in a real big house....

[DukeHorn]

The lawyer in me always find the way we treat white collar and blue collar crimes so differently somewhat entertaining and hypocritical. I won't even go into the racial statistics of the imposition of the death penalty (but we all know what's going on there). Anyway, let's infer a bit on this Madoff situation.

If we followed Scalia's dissenting opinion under US v. Booker on the "mandatory" Federal Sentencing Guidelines, it would be have been entertaining seeing how a small time drug user gets automatic jail time, while someone who embezzled 50 billion dollars will get his day in court and probably a wrist-slap.

I forgot, what's more detrimental to our society?? Drugs? or white collar crimes that ruin the middle class (think Enron, mortgage derivatives)?

Oh yeah, but we definitely need more than the current 7 justices appointed by Republicans (going back to an earlier thread). We need all of them to be Republican appointed to protect the oh so "rational" free market. Again, someone explain to me how any system run by human beings can be inherently rational, especially when as a society we decide not to police the system??? Explain to me why we don't count on felons to report their own crimes but somehow expect corporations to self-report?

Why do we study "robber barons" in American history back when the US government never regulated and somehow expect things to turn out differently 100+ years later. Ah, because as a society, our businessmen are more "enlightened" now. Gotcha......


"Under current law, possession of five grams or more of crack cocaine triggers a mandatory minimum sentence of five years in prison; simple possession of any quantity of any other controlled substance (except flunitrazepan) by a first-time offender – including powder cocaine – is a misdemeanor offense punishable by a maximum of one year in prison."

[csm]

how much different is what this guy did compared to what the folks running fannie mae and freddie mac did? or compared to what any of our elected officials have done? they're all running one great big ponzi scheme.
that should be his defense. If I was on that jury I'd think long and hard about convicting him given the other offenses we are hearing and seeing daily.
it is starting to look like the list of those not asking for a bailout of some sort is gonna be shorter than the list of those who are.
just sayin....

[LegendRider]

how much different is what this guy did compared to what the folks running fannie mae and freddie mac did? or compared to what any of our elected officials have done? they're all running one great big ponzi scheme.
that should be his defense. If I was on that jury I'd think long and hard about convicting him given the other offenses we are hearing and seeing daily.
it is starting to look like the list of those not asking for a bailout of some sort is gonna be shorter than the list of those who are.
just sayin....

One is illegal and immoral and the other is just immoral.

[csm]

yes but which is which.
obviously I know but.....

[93legendti]

And the point is what? Thanks


http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=618405&postcount=107

[saab2000]

Crime does pay if your far enuff up the white collar ladder..........he wont end up in a real big house....

Hard to say. Bernie Ebbers stole some of my money and I think he will die in jail. Not a bad outcome if you ask me.

[csm]

from what I heard this morning there is some accountability in the SEC over this too. that ought to fall in his favor.
just when I think it can not possibly get any worse.....
Monday rolls around!!!!

[Ozz]

from what I heard this morning there is some accountability in the SEC over this too. ....
???

Character is what you do when no one is looking.....

I would label this guy and other "white collar" crooks as domestic terrorists for the problems they have caused the whole country and world....exactly what bin Laden wanted.

Gitmo and waterboards for the lot!

[Viper]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=618405&postcount=107

Are you upset because Bernie Madoff did his best to promote his xxxxx, only his xxxxx, lied to them and cost them $50B? You know there are financial institutions already asking to have this $50B addressed by a US Governement bailout. :rolleyes:

http://www.reuters.com/article/governmentFilingsNews/idUSLF6597520081215

Sorry Viper = this needed to be deleted.....It is investors and not anything else ;)

(Please go to the article if you wish more info...also MANY investor and charities got taken -THanks PETE)

[97CSI]

Oh yeah, but we definitely need more than the current 7 justices appointed by Republicans (going back to an earlier thread). We need all of them to be Republican appointed to protect the oh so "rational" free market. Again, someone explain to me how any system run by human beings can be inherently rational, especially when as a society we decide not to police the system??? Explain to me why we don't count on felons to report their own crimes but somehow expect corporations to self-report?

Why do we study "robber barons" in American history back when the US government never regulated and somehow expect things to turn out differently 100+ years later. Ah, because as a society, our businessmen are more "enlightened" now. Gotcha......Believe it is that our businesspeople (don't forget the ruinous Carley Fiorinna sp? and Christie Whitman, amongst others) are better able to and do purchase the politicians (Dodd, Schumer and all republicans and most all democrats). Congress leads the way and they refuse to police themselves, so what chance do we mere mortals have, I ask you.

[csm]

the SEC had oversight on this guy. they ignored the signs; he reported transactions with APPLE at $100 at a time when APPLE was trading at /around $92 as just one example.

I'm betting there is some govt official-type folks that had some dough tied up with this clown and will protect him rather than get exposed.
anyone wanna bet that the Clinton's had some money invested through him? maybe not directly but through one of their "charities?"
can not wait for the book......

[sloji]

"The lawyer in me always find the way we treat white collar and blue collar crimes so differently somewhat entertaining and hypocritical. I won't even go into the racial statistics of the imposition of the death penalty (but we all know what's going on there). Anyway, let's infer a bit on this Madoff situation.

If we followed Scalia's dissenting opinion under US v. Booker on the "mandatory" Federal Sentencing Guidelines, it would be have been entertaining seeing how a small time drug user gets automatic jail time, while someone who embezzled 50 billion dollars will get his day in court and probably a wrist-slap."

American the beautiful is just another cult, so what's new. There is just enough freedom and wilderness to go unnoticed and enjoy. IT's the job of the cult to keep you working for them and they have a plan for you, it's called education and employment, and if you believe in both you are told you will prosper and get a place at the front of the line. There is justice at the front, freedom, cars, money, but most of all you will be respected, looked up to and won't go to prison for nearly anything you do...congratulations you've arrived.

It's time for a bike ride on the roads that slaves built, time for my lunch hand picked by slaves, time for me to forget that the wolves are at my door with a righteous grin and keys to the kingdom if only I will submit...

[Viper]

American the beautiful is just another cult, so what's new. There is just enough freedom and wilderness to go unnoticed and enjoy. IT's the job of the cult to keep you working for them and they have a plan for you, it's called education and employment, and if you believe in both you are told you will prosper and get a place at the front of the line. There is justice at the front, freedom, cars, money, but most of all you will be respected, looked up to and won't go to prison for nearly anything you do...congratulations you've arrived.

It's time for a bike ride on the roads that slaves built, time for my lunch hand picked by slaves, time for me to forget that the wolves are at my door with a righteous grin and keys to the kingdom if only I will submit...

From my pov, the Irish built America. :beer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq5qaTSSCwg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUela-xQytU&feature=related

Watch Star Wars, Episode I and II, Anakin's mom has an Irish brogue. We built the galaxy too atmo. :)

[Tobias]

The lawyer in me always find the way we treat white collar and blue collar crimes so differently somewhat entertaining and hypocritical.The problem is not political, Democrats vs. Republicans, lack of regulations, or lack of enforcement; it’s all about lack of severe punishment for the crimes being committed. And in that sense Democrats are just as guilty as Republicans – although for different reasons.

I don’t disagree that if a person uses a gun to rob a store or car-jack a blonde female mother of three they will likely serve 20 years, and that destroying 1,000 lives or more by stealing or embezzling billions will likely result in a relative slap on the wrist. But we as a society are to blame for not having the guts to execute the SOBs. That’s the problem IMHO. Additionally, we don’t use a dollar-to-human-life equivalent to quantify white-collar crimes. And no, it’s not infinite -- life does have a dollar value.

In assigning risk there is a “real” dollar value that must be used for a human life in order to make rational decisions. I don’t recall the number but it’s not all that high – in the order of a few millions or less. If we used that “dollar” number to equate embezzling billions to murdering 1,000s of human beings, then we’d put a stop to all this nonsense.

[Tobias]

Gitmo and waterboards for the lot!Drop them off half-way between Gitmo and Key West, and if they survive, they deserve a second chance. Otherwise, problem solved. :rolleyes:

[sloji]

When I think of my Irish roots this comes to mind;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWmf3Waio9E

and this;

http://www.kavanaghfamily.com/articles/2003/20030618jfc.htm


and with that in mind I am happily unnoticed...

[Viper]

When I think of my Irish roots this comes to mind;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWmf3Waio9E

and this;

http://www.kavanaghfamily.com/articles/2003/20030618jfc.htm


and with that in mind I am happily unnoticed...

This makes things better, only one man can dance with Nelson Mandela (at 3:50):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaGMDadKUbA&feature=related

The Irish are saving Africa atmo. We are and we show up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sNGCQvXiHM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UVa8M0QLts&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-rvbEbABeI

[Ray]

Tom Friedman had a good column this morning that deals with this. Key quote (red ink seems about right):

I have no sympathy for Madoff. But the fact is, his alleged Ponzi scheme was only slightly more outrageous than the “legal” scheme that Wall Street was running, fueled by cheap credit, low standards and high greed. What do you call giving a worker who makes only $14,000 a year a nothing-down and nothing-to-pay-for-two-years mortgage to buy a $750,000 home, and then bundling that mortgage with 100 others into bonds — which Moody’s or Standard & Poors rate AAA — and then selling them to banks and pension funds the world over? That is what our financial industry was doing. If that isn’t a pyramid scheme, what is?

Far from being built on best practices, this legal Ponzi scheme was built on the mortgage brokers, bond bundlers, rating agencies, bond sellers and homeowners all working on the I.B.G. principle: “I’ll be gone” when the payments come due or the mortgage has to be renegotiated.

The problem isn't primarily legal or regulatory. The problem is ethical and moral. There has always been greed, but somewhere along the line too damn many people at all levels of society forgot about right and wrong and lost the ability to recognize wrong when the opportunity to benefit from it was staring them in the face.

-Ray

[csm]

ok, lets put madoff in line for a bailout instead of out on bail.
good times.

[sloji]

This makes things better, only one man can dance with Nelson Mandela (at 3:50):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaGMDadKUbA&feature=related

The Irish are saving Africa atmo. We are and we show up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sNGCQvXiHM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UVa8M0QLts&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-rvbEbABeI


+1

[Pete Serotta]

this has nothing to do with race, religion, sex BUT just greed. Not much different than Freddie and Fannie, as well as ML, or GS.......

Legend, please do not think everything comes down to religion......

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=618405&postcount=107

[Viper]

+1

imho = http://www.bagofnothing.com/2007/12/black-tv-anchor-turning-white/

atmo = melanin

One man, one woman, one kind of man, mankind = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTa8-LdXdlw

[Pete Serotta]

Right on!!!!

Tom Friedman had a good column this morning that deals with this. Key quote (red ink seems about right):

I have no sympathy for Madoff. But the fact is, his alleged Ponzi scheme was only slightly more outrageous than the “legal” scheme that Wall Street was running, fueled by cheap credit, low standards and high greed. What do you call giving a worker who makes only $14,000 a year a nothing-down and nothing-to-pay-for-two-years mortgage to buy a $750,000 home, and then bundling that mortgage with 100 others into bonds — which Moody’s or Standard & Poors rate AAA — and then selling them to banks and pension funds the world over? That is what our financial industry was doing. If that isn’t a pyramid scheme, what is?

Far from being built on best practices, this legal Ponzi scheme was built on the mortgage brokers, bond bundlers, rating agencies, bond sellers and homeowners all working on the I.B.G. principle: “I’ll be gone” when the payments come due or the mortgage has to be renegotiated.

The problem isn't primarily legal or regulatory. The problem is ethical and moral. There has always been greed, but somewhere along the line too damn many people at all levels of society forgot about right and wrong and lost the ability to recognize wrong when the opportunity to benefit from it was staring them in the face.

-Ray

[Viper]

Friedman's article is based on moral relativism, seeks and discusses the lowestcommondenominator which is now one word as it's used so much, too often...hey everyone was doin' it. Bernie Madoff was caught, his own sons turned him in and he should be fried like french toast. Pass the syrup please.

Liars can figure, but figures don't lie atmo.

[Pete Serotta]

The reason I posted this was greed and nothing else...Viper and Adam please go for a bike ride, take a time out, or even come over for a wine.......

Religion has NOTHING to do with the greed we are experiencing...Charities got hit VERY bad on this, as well as individuals.

White collar crime, historically pays very well........that was the point. At 70 years old and with lawyers, he will probably be at his summer house by MAY!! (that is after coming back from Florida.)>

Lack of accountability, Lack of Punishment, and Lack of Leadership, especially by example - helped us get here.

It is not a male/female. Republican/Democrat, Catholic/Islam/???ish/Protestant issue....All have failed miserably over the past years

[RPS]

There has always been greed, but somewhere along the line too damn many people at all levels of society forgot about right and wrong and lost the ability to recognize wrong when the opportunity to benefit from it was staring them in the face.

-RayIf by “forgot” you mean they didn’t care, then I would agree.

But like Kevin Spacey as Prot stated in K-Pax, all beings “KNOW” the difference between right and wrong. If they don’t act on that basis, it’s because they are putting themselves above the rest – it’s really that simple. It’s not about forgetting, it’s about not caring at all what harm they do to others. They know the difference. Everyone does.

[Birch]

While I'd like his "home" detention to be in a studio in alphabet city, I guess that's not going to come about. Must be tough being forced to "stay home" in a $7 million apartment in the city, but I regress.

This case is not only criminal, but just sad. This is a man who did this for the fame not for the fortune. He already had that. Besides, on his "money management" firm, he wasn't really charging for assets under management and a performance fee. He was charging commissions. Paltry compared to the 2 and 20 he'd get as a legitimate hedge fund manager.

I'm also getting tired of the Fannie/Freddie knock. There's a lot of people out there talking crap that don't know crap? Were they poorly run companies? You bet. Were they criminal enteprises? Not even close. In fact, many of us would never have had their first home without a Freddie or Fannie sponsored mortgage. Secondly, it was a decree from the Clinton administration for Fannie and Freddie to loosen credit requirements in order to increase home ownership to minorities that eventually began to toppling of this house of cards. Greenspan warned against this, but he also grossly underestimated the downside of this happenning.

I'm in structured finance, albeit waaaaaaaaay down towards the bottom of the food chain. However, I know how a majority of this stuff works. They aren't that bad of products. Nor are the CDS's that killed AIG. Those aren't bad products either.

You know what killed em? Complacency with a side of laziness with a bit of greed sprinkled on top. The slimiest? That would be the corrupt mortgage brokers that go from one scam to the next. Not all mortgage brokers are bad, in fact far from it, but that is an industry that is going to be crushed, ground up and restructured top to bottom.

OK... enough ramblin here.....

[sloji]

If by “forgot” you mean they didn’t care, then I would agree.

But like Kevin Spacey as Prot stated in K-Pax, all beings “KNOW” the difference between right and wrong. If they don’t act on that basis, it’s because they are putting themselves above the rest – it’s really that simple. It’s not about forgetting, it’s about not caring at all what harm they do to others. They know the difference. Everyone does.

I took care of a child with multiple brain tumors and one day he surprised me by taking a bite out of my leg. Not sure the everyone part works, mabye a bell curve would be closer.

Clarity is cool but I remember a story about a preacher asking for canned goods for the poor one day and for donations for a new church organ the next and I wondered what fair was...did they really need a new organ when they had an old one and maybe they should spend it on the poor? How much is enough when there is suffering to be cured?

I opted out and grew my own food for six years, lived in a pair of shorts and read books, took walks with my son and wife it was great but everyone asked how would I get ahead? what do you owe to other people? Even my relative poverty seemed to bug folks...just hard to figure out what's fair ...atmo

[ti_boi]

People Suck. :beer:

[Blue Jays]

This story would be great filed in the OT subfolder. :beer:

[Lazy Bill]

It looks to me like Madoff is still pulling all the strings here.
He may have orchestrated the whole sequence of events as a diversion for some as yet undiscovered end.
He insulates his family by "admitting" to his sons, who then, through their fiduciary duty, turn him in to the feds.
He tells the feds he is guilty and what he is guilty of, thus sending them on a years long mission to gather evidence
of how the money was "squandered" when it reality it has been stolen and hidden.
This guy knows more about moving money than anybody investigating him ever will.
A $10 million bail bond for a "$50 billion" fraud? Something is very wrong here.

[Ray]

If by “forgot” you mean they didn’t care, then I would agree.

But like Kevin Spacey as Prot stated in K-Pax, all beings “KNOW” the difference between right and wrong. If they don’t act on that basis, it’s because they are putting themselves above the rest – it’s really that simple. It’s not about forgetting, it’s about not caring at all what harm they do to others. They know the difference. Everyone does.
Right and wrong might not even be the right terms here. The folks directly involved in the scams (illegal and legal scams) had to have known pretty close to exactly what they were doing and there should be a special section of hell reserved for them. But LOTS of people who benefited were only guilty of not calling "bull*****" when they were offered something that seemed too good to be true and they had to know at some level that it wasn't true. Like the folks taking those insane loans that they had to know in their bones they couldn't afford, even if they didn't understand all of the fine print. Like the folks bundling all of those bad loans and selling them and the rating agencies giving them high ratings because, after all, only a few of them would default, right? Like so many of the other players in the chain. Even down to people not much different than me who kept hearing that our house was worth waaaaaaay more than any REAL value could account for and counting on that "wealth" for retirement or to leverage against to buy a more extravagant lifestyle than they could really afford (I didn't get caught in that trap, but I easily could have). Or folks who fell into the same traps with their retirement accounts who saw them going through the roof for several years and started to take that "money" for granted - like it could only go up?

Were the folks who just didn't call BS when they had to sense something was too good to be true as guilty as the folks who were offering the deals that were too good to be true? Maybe not quite, on some ethical scale. But the results were the same - we were all part of the suspension of disbelief that got us here, whether active participants or passive. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Damn few of us weren't part of the problem on one level or another.

-Ray

[RPS]

Were the folks who just didn't call BS when they had to sense something was too good to be true as guilty as the folks who were offering the deals that were too good to be true? Maybe not quite, on some ethical scale.Ray, for me there is a big difference -- mostly depending on the “intent” of these actions you describe. If you own a home and it goes up in value, using the gain to finance buying toys may be unwise but is not illegal, immoral, or harmful to anyone else. In fact, by using the equity in the home to buy a big-screen plasma TV you could even rationalize that you are helping others (workers at Samsung or Sony, and Best Buy etc…) by providing them a job.

What people like Madoff do is totally different in my opinion – they prey on the weak for personal gain. There is no redeeming value to this type of behavior unless one thinks that the mere transfer of wealth and power to the unscrupulous is a good thing. Most of us instinctively know it’s wrong, immoral, and irreprehensible. Whether legal or not is mostly a technicality for me.

[PaulE]

It looks to me like Madoff is still pulling all the strings here.
He may have orchestrated the whole sequence of events as a diversion for some as yet undiscovered end.
He insulates his family by "admitting" to his sons, who then, through their fiduciary duty, turn him in to the feds.
He tells the feds he is guilty and what he is guilty of, thus sending them on a years long mission to gather evidence
of how the money was "squandered" when it reality it has been stolen and hidden.
This guy knows more about moving money than anybody investigating him ever will.
A $10 million bail bond for a "$50 billion" fraud? Something is very wrong here.

I can't get my head around the concept of $50 billion being "lost", "gone", "disappeared" in a Ponzi scheme. $50 billion of fraud, maybe, but if he was embezzling and using new investors' money to pay the earlier investors, and he was getting them steady 10-12% returns, there must have been a lot of early investors who collected back all of their original investment plus their "earnings", even if those earnings were fake. So for those early investors, there is no money lost, but what they "earned" was not really earned, but they did get cash. SO over 30 years or so he kept taking on new investors to pay off the older ones, perpetuating this on higher and higher balances. Now there is $50 billion completely gone? As in accounts with book balances of $50 billion for which there are zero assets? It just seems to me that there must be some serious money hidden away somewhere. How many hundreds of billions must have flowed through this Ponzi scheme over the years to make $50 billion disappear, and where did it all go?

[soulspinner]

Ray, for me there is a big difference -- mostly depending on the “intent” of these actions you describe. If you own a home and it goes up in value, using the gain to finance buying toys may be unwise but is not illegal, immoral, or harmful to anyone else. In fact, by using the equity in the home to buy a big-screen plasma TV you could even rationalize that you are helping others (workers at Samsung or Sony, and Best Buy etc…) by providing them a job.

What people like Madoff do is totally different in my opinion – they prey on the weak for personal gain. There is no redeeming value to this type of behavior unless one thinks that the mere transfer of wealth and power to the unscrupulous is a good thing. Most of us instinctively know it’s wrong, immoral, and irreprehensible. Whether legal or not is mostly a technicality for me.


Good thing whether its legal or not is not a technicality to the justice system. Hes goin down...

[Ray]

Ray, for me there is a big difference -- mostly depending on the “intent” of these actions you describe. If you own a home and it goes up in value, using the gain to finance buying toys may be unwise but is not illegal, immoral, or harmful to anyone else. In fact, by using the equity in the home to buy a big-screen plasma TV you could even rationalize that you are helping others (workers at Samsung or Sony, and Best Buy etc…) by providing them a job.

What people like Madoff do is totally different in my opinion – they prey on the weak for personal gain. There is no redeeming value to this type of behavior unless one thinks that the mere transfer of wealth and power to the unscrupulous is a good thing. Most of us instinctively know it’s wrong, immoral, and irreprehensible. Whether legal or not is mostly a technicality for me.
I agree there's a difference ethically and certainly legally. But ALL of it contributed mightily to the bubble that just burst and to a sense that "we was ripped off" when in fact most of us did it to ourselves. There are all sorts of technical explanations for what just happened to the financial system and what is happening to our economy as a result. But the bottom line is its nearly everyone's behavior, our "irrational exuberance" if you like. And we can only blame the crooks for suckering us to a certain extent when we were such willing partners in being suckered. There are a lot of mini GMs in a lot of households around the US and you can call it victimization or you can call it bad management, but some pretty serious restructuring seems to be in order.

-Ray

[DukeHorn]

Let's be clear. Madoff committed embezzlement, but how about these traders?? Why aren't some of these folks getting punished? From today's NY Times.

Mr. Kim’s colleagues, not only at his level, but far down the ranks, also pocketed large paychecks. In all, Merrill handed out $5 billion to $6 billion in bonuses that year. A 20-something analyst with a base salary of $130,000 collected a bonus of $250,000. And a 30-something trader with a $180,000 salary got $5 million.

But Merrill’s record earnings in 2006 — $7.5 billion — turned out to be a mirage. The company has since lost three times that amount, largely because the mortgage investments that supposedly had powered some of those profits plunged in value.


Even assuming that those illusory profits should lead to bonus compensation, why are these same firms giving out bonus compensation on record losses??

Scrutiny over pay is intensifying as banks like Merrill prepare to dole out bonuses even after they have had to be propped up with billions of dollars of taxpayers’ money. While bonuses are expected to be half of what they were a year ago, some bankers could still collect millions of dollars.

Wow, instead of earning my company 50-70 million of "fake" profits and getting a 4 million dollar bonus, I've lost 100-120 million "real" dollars and I'm going to get a 1 million dollar bonus. (just one anecdotal story from a buddy of mine).

And you wonder why we're having a brain drain here in the US with all our good math PhDs heading to Wall Street to work in this crappy service industry that generates no real value for our country. Then again, I always have interesting talks with my McKinsey friends about what real value "consultants" have. Nothing like paying a wet in the ears MBA with no practical experience in biotech over $300/hour to process internal "comments" to come up with recommendations. Another excuse in wasteful corporate spending.

[ti_boi]

Looks to me like America is rapidly changing. People are sick about the greed and worse they are angry about paying the tab for wealthy overcompensated bankers. If this leads to real change.....fine....but my guess is that the lazy, complacent Americans (myself included) will continue to stew about this...rant on the internet...and simply grouse about it, but nothing will change.

That being said, wow......this trainwreck is fascinating.....

[jpw]

I read today that Madoff's brother's daughter is married to an SEC attorney.
Both brother and daughter worked for Madoff.

Blood is thicker than regulation.

[RPS]

I sense this issue is taking a slight anti-free-market turn…..which seems common. Personally, I support capitalism and free markets, and when problems like Madoff inevitably surface, I direct my anger at the fundamental or root problem which is corruption, not capitalism. Corruption and abuse of power can and does occur in any type of system. People in power under socialist and communist rule can also be corrupt.

I know this issue is similar to gun control – some people want to fix the problem by eliminating guns rather than punishing or eliminating criminals. That logic doesn’t work for me because the gun itself is not evil, it’s the user. And the same thing with capitalism – Madoff is corrupt and evil for doing what he did using the system, but that doesn’t make the system evil or bad. Let’s punish Madoff, not capitalism and free markets. Let’s make an example of Madoff and everyone who helped him (and I’m sure there are many).

[csm]

we don't have the stomach for a true freemarket system. we talk and talk about the virtues of it but when push comes to shove; or fail, we immediately want to step in and "fix" it.
here's the thing: we need to let the market forces sort out the domestic auto industry. the "living" wage that the UAW is getting is an artificially inflated wage that is not in line with other manufacturing jobs. until that is taken care of, any monies given to the big 3 will be a bandaid. or a finger in the dyke.
we should have taken the same approach with AIG and the finanacial institutions. seriously, is it right or fair that they used bailout funds to pay for bonuses????
and, without turning this into a locked thread.... we need term limits on ALL elected officials. the argument that we can vote them out really doesn't hold water. just look at the amount of money SPENT to get into office. look at the amount of money the fine Gov of IL thought he could get. and he would have gotten it if not for that pesky but ended too soon investigation.
if we don't have the stomach for free-market economics then we need to swing the other direction and wallow in a socialist system. I look forward to buying an american Yugo. and standing in line for bread.

[Ray]

I didn't really sense it taking an anti-free market turn. And I don't believe you either have completely free markets or socialism. Its not that black and white. We've never had completely free markets in this country and we've never been close to socialism either. We have a market based system regulated by a democratic government. The pendulum swings between more and less regulation, but its never come close to either extreme.

But ANY system is only as good as the will of the people who take part in it. To the extent that ours is broken now, its not because the system, such as it is, is flawed. Its because too many of the people in it perceived a free lunch and grabbed for it. It doesn't exist and we're collectively coming up empty at the moment.

-Ray

[Viper]

I was told we had this all cleaned up, just eight years ago, after the 2000 .com implosion where tech died, Nasdaq tanked, Enron, Worldcom etc etc etc.

Anyone? Anyone? Great Depression. Bueller? Bueller? Something d-o-o economics. Voodoo economics.

Get to the 2:40 mark of this brilliant video and enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSA22rVJg6g

Yep, America is filled with mouth breathers, desk droolers and gum chewers. Voodoo economics. Bueller. Ferris. Classic. The Federal Reserve loves you. Open mouth or keep it busy chewing gum, feel the love.

[William]

Droan America

All of you Lemmings just need to open your mouths and close your brains and park yourself in front of the television for your daily dose of what’s “right” in the world. Don’t worry about anything, we’ll take care of it. Just buy frivolous things to keep up with the Joneses, pull the lever when it’s time to perpetuate the illusion of change without really changing anything. We have everything under control. This is a free country you know. You are free…you are free to do as we tell you…………


.

[Viper]

:beer:

[johnnymossville]

Our social security system has this little ponzy scheme beat by many trillions.

Best thing we can do in our daily lives is while keeping an eye on what's going on, spend what energy we have planning for our own futures, take care of the relationships closest to us and be thankful for and protect what we do have. A nice collection of bicycles, guns and ammo is a good start. :banana:

[William]

Our social security system has this little ponzy scheme beat by many trillions.

Best thing we can do in our daily lives is while keeping an eye on what's going on, spend what energy we have planning for our own futures, take care of the relationships closest to us and be thankful for and protect what we do have. A nice collection of bicycles, guns and ammo is a good start. :banana:

I heart this guy! :beer:


Viper. I have espresso up my nose. :beer:




William

[csm]

actually got a deal on some 12ga shotgun shells. around $30/case of 250.
not the 3 1/2" goose and turkey size but enough to put some the fear of god/allah/etc in people.
I shoot skeet and sporting clays so that is the realistic purpose.

[Viper]

A nice collection of bicycles, guns and ammo is a good start. johnnymossville


Viper. I have espresso up my nose. :beer:
William

:beer:

[Tobias]

Our social security system has this little ponzy scheme beat by many trillions.The SS Ponzi scheme has all others beat by a mile cause many new investors haven’t been born yet, making them easy to fool. Not only are they clueless, they tend to stay quiet. And they don't vote much either. :rolleyes:

[csm]

the best part about ss investors.... they don't have a choice!

[johnnymossville]

The other big scam is public education. From recent events it sounds like it's only gonna get WAYYYYY worse.

"We want to re-build education from the bottom up." - BO.

Oh yeah, that's a winning formula. Uhuh. Kinda like taking the last 10 finishers at your local industrial park CatV crit and putting them in the Tour.

[fiamme red]

http://www.epinions.com/content_5269725316

(snipped)

The U.S. Government is engaging essentially in a modified version of the Ponzi scheme. (It's been operating for decades, but has been greatly expanded by Bush and, recently, by the various bailouts and the up-coming economic stimulus package). Under this federally-operated scheme, current taxpayers receive rates of combined income (take-home income after tax-cuts) and governmental services that significantly exceed the actual market value of their productivity. The extra increment of return is paid for by spending, in advance, yet-to-be collected taxes of future generations of Americans. Those future Americans will someday receive combined income and services at below the rate of the actual market value of their work because a rapidly increasing proportion of their taxes will have to be spent to service the debt we created to fund our largesse. Those future Americans will, quite naturally, postpone the ultimate reckoning by continuing the pyramid scheme as long as they can – i.e., spending the taxes of still later generations. And since they, like us, will probably want to live at a level higher than that justified by their actual productivity, they will need to not merely pass on the debt they inherited but continue to expand it. So, annual debt service will rapidly approach and exceed the GDP and severely constrain options for dealing with the then current social, economic, and international problems. At the same time, unfunded commitments to Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security will grow rapidly, adding to the strain on resources. When the pool of available investors dries up, the nation will either have to declare bankruptcy (default on the outstanding loans) or struggle through an extended period of living at a level well beneath the actual value of their productivity. America will then become a backwater nation and the buzz, internationally, will revolve around the "Chinese dream."

The beauty of the Government's modification to the Ponzi scheme is that, instead of pitting the interests of current investors against those of new investors, it pits the interests of current Americans (i.e., voters) against a voiceless, yet-to-be-enfranchised citizenry of the future. Those taking the hit aren't yet here (or aren't yet old enough) to complain about it. The vast majority of current Americans will gladly participate in the scheme because they'll enjoy the benefit of a higher level of consumption than their work alone could justify. By the time the future taxpayers are able to realize that they've been screwed, we'll all be comfortably in our graves and well out of shouting distance.

[97CSI]

Amen........one time when it is nice to be older.

[johnnymossville]

The people schemed by Madoff went into his little game willingly at least as far as I've heard. He didn't put a gun to anyone's head right? Greed made that work.

The scheme our glorious government pulls is forced upon us and the lies pile up every single day with the hope we'll reelect them in a few years so they can keep their scheme going a bit longer. Thirst for Power and Greed make this work.

[Ahneida Ride]

should I say something .... ????

Nah .... you all know how I feel ...
I'll stop the broken record for once ... :hello: :banana:

[DukeHorn]

Hmmm, last I saw, our decrepit public education system got my sister into Yale, a few cousins into Stanford and MIT, and I did OK as well

But keep on complaining about the federal government, it's amusing. Especially coming from someone who was probably gung-ho about the Iraq War and believes that dinosaurs existed 6,000 years ago. (yawn, see how other folks can play the stereotyping game......).

Considering that you're a Michelle Malkin fan, I'm going to also guess that you're a supporter of racial profiling (I mean the internment of all those Japanese Americans in WWII was just a minor blip according to her).

[johnnymossville]

I mean the internment of all those Japanese Americans in WWII was just a minor blip according to her.

Of all the garbage we have to put up with from our government you have to dig up Japanese Internment? A policy initiated by a Democrat during a time of war. Ohhh,... don't forget all those unfortunate vacationers trapped and tortured in Guantanamo.

[Joellogicman]

Of all the garbage we have to put up with from our government you have to dig up Japanese Internment? A policy initiated by a Democrat during a time of war. Ohhh,... don't forget all those unfortunate vacationers trapped and tortured in Guantanamo.

The interment was initiated by the then mainly Republican west coast states (their population at the time too low to influence national elections the way they do now) and long time military people.

Many of FDR's hard core new dealers were against the interment. FDR overruled them in part because he wanted to placate conservatives who were against the US joining WWII all the way through - and some even well after - the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

Getting to the point - then you do approve of racial profiling?

[Viper]

Getting to the point - then you do approve of racial profiling?

Some countries in the Middle East do.

:(

[johnnymossville]

The idealist in me detests racial profiling, but I guarantee if it's used it will save lives. I'm against Japanese Internment also, and am glad Ronald Reagan Apologized for it.

[Viper]

The interment was initiated by the then mainly Republican west coast states (their population at the time too low to influence national elections the way they do now) and long time military people.

Was it cause they were Republican west coast states or was it cause they were west-coast-states, states that had a very high Asian population?