pistons/pacers brawl

[Climb01742]

a lot of trends in american sports sadly came together, i think, last night. an active or beign acceptance of trash talking. making sports about "respect", not a game. forgetting sports is a game. leagues marketing borderline or not so borderline bad behavior. fans forgetting that they are fans. everyone forgetting that there are kids in the stands. seeing every action as a challenge. letting sportsmanship become a passe idea. valuing theatrics over fundamentals. and maybe most of all, sports being first and foremost a business, rather than a sport. something that is supposed to teach us something about life and ourselves. and oh yeah, that sports is supposed to be fun, a game. i hope the culture of sports in our country begins to change. did you see that shot on espn of the young boy crying, being held and consoled by his slightly older brother? and THIS is sports? i don't know if i'd ever want to take my daughter to a pro game...which saddens me beyond words, because some of my happiest father/son memories as a kid are of my dad taking me to major league baseball games. in a word...bummer.

[BumbleBeeDave]

What a bunch of MORONS! . . . . Couldn’t they celebrate Ginger’s birthday a bit more calmly?

BBDave

[Sandy]

I just watched multiple repeats of the incident, some in slow motion. What a pathetic interaction of people, both on the players and fans side. You saw some fans simply astounded after the occurrence and a little child crying. Truly pathetic. There will be some very serious repercussions from this. A very bad day for the NBA, fans, players, and the world of sports. A genuine example of exactly what sports should never be.

Sandy

[Smiley]

I guess nobody here has ever watched an English league soccer match , the action is in the stands. I was never allowed to go to soccer matches when I was a kid because of the problems that occur in the stands . This does not make what happened here in the NBA any better just maybe a global trend . I would never pay good money to see an NBA game anyay , humm maybe a WNBA game cause I think Stacey Dales Schulman of the Mystics she is HOT :banana:

[bulliedawg]

The NBA. It's FAN-tastic!

[93legendti]

What struck me was the ESPN commentators basically condoning the players going into the stands to fight the fans. Regardless if the fans were wrong o throw things (they were), going into the stands to fight the people who help pay your salaries seems wrong...

[Kevin]

Idiots.

Kevin

[Ahneida Ride]

Ditto .... Idiots

Thanks Kevin

[Sandy]

I certainly agree with you. I think the ESPN commentators backed the players to the point of stupidity. Going into the stands really escalated the incident. Attacking fans on the court did likewise. Players and fans were both to blame. I really thought that the former players supported the players too much. NBA players know better than going into the stands and attacking fans, period. It all was very disgusting, to say the least, and unfortunately, I believe, it follows what is occurring in our society in general. Both the fans and the players bear blame. Both exhibited truly absurd behavior. Absolutely no justification on either side, period.


Sandy

[M_A_Martin]

Detroit has a basketball team?

Sorry guys, ever since the theatrics of Bill Lambeer and the boys, I haven't bothered to watch pro bb due to just about all the reasons you've included above.

[93legendti]

huh?

[Andreu]

I guess nobody here has ever watched an English league soccer match , the action is in the stands. I was never allowed to go to soccer matches when I was a kid because of the problems that occur in the stands . This does not make what happened here in the NBA any better just maybe a global trend . I would never pay good money to see an NBA game anyay , humm maybe a WNBA game cause I think Stacey Dales Schulman of the Mystics she is HOT :banana:

I have been to hundreds of football matches in England, Scotland and Spain and I have never been frightened or thought I was going to be injured. Yes, I have seen the occasional fight maybe 5 or 6 incidents of nearly 10 years going to football matches. If you want trouble you will get it. It depends on which teams you follow and your willingness to get involved in the "action". The "action" you are talking about is usually in the streets and well organised. The hooligans in question are normally politically motivated (ultra right wing) and are isolated (thankfully) to a few clubs (though too many) in Europe this is vey different to the events I witnessed in the basketball game the other day.

Players getting involved in such shenanigans is probably a global trend - we are now part of the 30 second culture that the USA has created - it makes money and spectacle - it is a show and "we" want to see two hockey/basktball teams get involved in a fight...if fans are involved so be it. There is, thankfully, enough spectacle and entertainment in football no to rely on fighting in the game as a form of entertainment.

I reiterate the incident the other day in basketball is is very different to what happens with fans/followers/hooligans in European football and I sincerely hope to God, for your sake, this is not a global trend.

[Climb01742]

that the espn announcers, who are former players, seemed to condone the current players going into the stands shows, i think, that the entitled, above the rules attitude of current players has been around for awhile. IMO, all sides -- players, fans, owners, the league, the media -- share the responsibility for this.

[toaster]

It's the thug life culture in the stands and elsewhere.

All about dissing and being dissed. The world is insane, no need to act out and think that you deserve respect from people you don't even know.

When I ride my bike I'm witness to cowardly acts by motorist who believe their right to the road supercedes mine. They are truly cowards living in a protective steel and glass box that they know insures their ability to escape from any retribution by the ones they bully.

Sports fans need a wake up call. Take the alcohol out of their hands, have security remove them from the arena when they act unruly, or stick them into a penalty box and fine them. The player's need some protection. I'd hate to see protective barriers used to insulate the players, but it's got to feel a bit unnerving to be a pro and have to consider the ability of fans to interfere or cause you injury.

[93legendti]

The NBA Commish seems to have it right:

``This demonstrates why our players must not enter the stands, whatever the provocation or poisonous behavior of people attending the games,'' Stern said.

[Lost Weekend]

Hey, they are making up for no hockey season!! ;)

[Sandy]

Don't they wear white socks???

BSS

[gdw]

It was actually a red vs blue state confrontatiion. Let's blame the politicians. :banana:

[keno]

I reiterate the incident the other day in basketball is is very different to what happens with fans/followers/hooligans in European football and I sincerely hope to God, for your sake, this is not a global trend.

Unfortunately, Europe is hardly without its serious problems concerning soccer and ones a likely precursor to actual violence. The following piece, relating to Spain, is the most recent one I've read. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=aLk2QGuVrSEw&refer=europe I have seen others recently concerning the abominable treatment of Henry Thiery, Arsenal, and other black players within the UK. Perhaps my memory does not serve me well, but it seems to me that I remember that many soccer stadiums have protective barriers in the form of fences or moats keeping the fans and the players separate. I am sure this is the case in many stadiums in South America; of Europe I am less sure. The subject of racist behavior discussed in the article is an ugly one, and its relevance to the Pistons - Pacers fight last night will doubtlessly be the subject of much ink and discussion now coming.

My point being twofold; first, that the US is not necessarily the exporter to the world of the problems experienced around professional sports, and second, that European football is not without its own unfortunate blemishes of a very serious nature.

keno

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . had just a teeny bit more to do with this than she’s letting on . . . ;)

(Obviously, BBDave has too much time on his hands this evening.) :rolleyes:

BBDave

[RABikes2]

BBDave,

That had to be one of the best laughs I've had in a while. You do have too much time on your hands tonight, but I appreciated the humor. Thanks. :p

[Sandy]

Notice that the fighters ALL have on white socks. Notice that the 2 peacemakers in the middle have black socks. Need I say more????


BSS

[M_A_Martin]

I think its a case of mistaken identity...that can't be me. I have this huge CF brace on my knee...

I like the shoes though...I might have to get me some of those!

[Andreu]

I didn' realise there was a racist element to what went on in the basketball game the other day. This is bad. Interestingly, this problem which was rife in England in the 70's seems to have reared its ugly head again in Europe (particularly Spain though there also issues in Italy too).

My point was that going to a football match is safe... the element who fight in English football is very different to the violence generally seen in hockey games for example - I have the feeling that these games are going the way of profesional wrestling. The fight in the basketball appeared to me like some kind of orchestrated affair...I was wrong. The perpetrators of the violence are usually extremists who use football has a device to initiate violence and recruit. Though they are racist this is very different to the violence we witnessed in the basketball game the other day.

I wouldn't want people thinking that going to a football game in Europe is dangerous. I went to games in England when the violence was alot worse and never got into any trouble. This "terrace" violence is usually away from the grounds and well organised...my belief is that you would have to go looking for it to get involved.

After Hillsborough (a football game when many fans where killed due to crushing not fighting) the attitude changed slightly. Grounds actually took the barriers down to let the fans have a route to safety. Many grounds, I believe in South America still have barriers.

I guess there is a risk in going to a game in Europe that most of us live with here. To US sensibilities this is a risk which is not worth taking...the games in American football (and I have only seen bits of games on TV so I am second guessing) for example generally look like family affairs with no violence and this is what we should be aiming for. Or does American football have similar problems?

And I certainly wouldn't say that the USA is to blame for all the problems in professsional sport - just some of them!
A

[keno]

a critical aspect of the other night's fighting was that it started with fighting among the players on the court and then one of them, Ron Artest, a man with a well-known background of anger management issues and a loose cannon in other respects, went into the stands to attack a fan who had thrown beer at him. Then matters escalated.

I believe that in order to gain some control over violence in professional basketball related to players going into the stands(each sport is different; I can't recall a noted incident in which a football player went into the stands to fight, mostly for the reasons that the stands are not that close to the playing field, the lowest rows in a football stadium are somewhat higher than the playing surface, and the heckling is mostly lost in the general roar; it does happen in baseball and hockey occasionally) a minimum of two things need to happen:

First, if a player goes into the stands the NBA has to automatically suspend him for the balance of the season or longer, and, if the situation warrants, for life.

Second, if a player goes into the stands there has to be meaningful criminal prosecution. Until a player spends some real time in jail for hitting a fan many of the players will not get the message. Where a hard case, such as Artest, is involved, there may be no ultimate way in which to deal with such a player going into the stands. The fans who involve themselves in these fights do face real world consequences.

Fighting in the stands does happen and is dealt with appropriately, I believe. It is not a good situation in any event. My guess is that hockey is the sport at which most of fan fighting occurs. For the most part the players have been getting a free ride when they get involved. The franchises probably step in to keep the players playing, particularly when a name player is involved. Those are the people the fans pay to see. This will be an interesting case to follow as the players involved are big names.

I do see your point about the difference between physical violence and abusive language. Most cases, oddly not the current one, start with the latter. Perhaps I see a narrower gap between the two than you.

keno

[Sandy]

My guess is that Ron Artest will be suspended for the remainder of the season, perhaps just to the playoffs. The other Pacer who went into the stands and started flailing away will probably get a rather long suspension, also. In addition, I would be surprised if neither of the players did not get criminal charges placed against them. I would also expect arrest and charges made against a few of the fans. There needs to be some tough punative measures taken, and I believe that there will be. Blame will be given to all parties- fans, players, security, police, management, Serotta forum members and viewers....


Mr. Dunk,


Sandy

[Andreu]

....Eric Cantona karate kicking a fan (who was verbally abusing him) in a game in London a few years ago. Cantona received community service.

One of the more worrying aspects of all this is that youngsters copy the behaviour of the pros. They see it on TV and they think it is normal behaviour to fight, hassle the ref, moan, cheat, act ungentlemanly/womanly etc etc. I played football (soccer) until my late teens and was involved in a couple of games which really questioned my faith in humans. How do we change this attitude of "winning at all costs"? (I guess we are in the realms of doping here too.)

The most worrying aspect is the use of sport for politics (right wing) or incite racial hatred....a whole different kettle of rotten fish. But possibly easier to fix with education and time. In its defence we have to remember that Spain was under a rightwing dicatorship until the late 1970's.
A

[keno]

if you as a TV viewer of the incident on ESPN end up doing hard time, can I use your Ottrott while you are in stir? I'll send you knishes and appetizing goodies that you can trade for cigarettes and time on the squat rack.

keno

[Sandy]

I plea bargained. I got 500 hours of community service. I have to fix flats of cyclists with 14 engineer degrees, an IQ of over 165, but who are not smart enough to figure out why their tires keep getting flats. :D :D


Airhead Sandy

[Andreu]

an IQ total of 165 or an average figure?
A

[Sandy]

It sort of depends.

When figuring out why the tires keep getting flats, it is a total of 165.

In all other instances, it is an average figure.


Joe Average

[93legendti]

racist element? huh?
No, the critical aspect was Artest attacked a fan who did NOT throw anything at him. He got the wrong guy. Even if he got the right guy, I think he will be suspended for the season.

[bulliedawg]

There is definitely a cultural aspect to developments in the NBA and NFL. Many of the players in both those sports lived hard-scrabble childhoods where machismo and respect were the only way to survive. Most of these young men are adaptable. Some are not. The ones who are adaptable end up leading exemplary lives. They use their power and riches to do great things. The ones who aren't adaptable are ruined by their power and riches.

I see it all the time in college sports. The universities are constantly admitting young men who, all things being equal, should not be in college. The large majority of them are great kids who led difficult lives. They get a lot of help, but they come around and are adaptable to college life. A small percentage are not adaptable and fail miserably. I know most of the athletes at UGA. Of about 85 football players, I can honestly say there is only one who is an outright scary SOB and completely unadaptable. Interestingly, he is also the most physical and hard-hitting player on the team.

Of course a part of being adaptable is being held accountable. Ron Artest has never been held accountable. Mike Jarvis was a clown. Jermaine O'Neal never went to college. He was drafted straight out of high school (About on hour from here in Anderson, SC), and for a long time was considered the posterchild for bad choices. Most experts thought he was doomed, and had no chance of success. But he has worked very hard to become a top-notch NBA player. That's why I'm particularly disappointed in his behavior. It seemed to me that he had turned the corner.

If I had a son who had lived a hard scrabble life and had his choice of places to play basketball, I would see to it that he chose one of the top notch academic/hoops schools like UNC, UVA, Michigan. These schools have figured out how to take kids and turn them into good men. They have the adaptability thing down cold. With rare exception (Rasheed Wallace, maybe C-Webb) these schools, coaches, support staff turn rough boys into fine men.

I shall now step down of my soap box.

[Climb01742]

If I had a son who had lived a hard scrabble life and had his choice of places to play basketball, I would see to it that he chose one of the top notch academic/hoops schools like UNC, UVA, Michigan.

wonderful, insighful post, mr dawg. to the colleges you listed, i would add duke. if i were a kid who had a hardscrabble life, duke seems to have found a good balance of academic and hoops excellence.

[JohnS]

I agree with MOST of what you said. Where I differ is the blame for their actions. From the time that most of these kids were in 9th grade and made the varsity team, they've had "guardian angels" looking out for them. People who gave them money, bailed them out of trouble, etc. Right at the age where people start being responsible for their actions, they were absolved. They're still kids inside, who think they're getting in a school fight on the playground during recess. They need to grow up and realize that they are college educated adults with responsibilities and are accountable for what they do!!

[bulliedawg]

They need to grow up and realize that they are college educated adults with responsibilities and are accountable for what they do!!

That's where men like Dean Smith, Joe Paterno, John Thompson etc. come in.

The difference between David Thompson (only hardcore ACC basketball fans will know that name) and Michael Jordan is simple: Thompson was coached by Norm Sloan; Jordan was coached by Dean Smith.

Like my father (God rest his soul) used to say. "If you want to know who you are, just look at who you're with."

[toaster]

I just finished reading a wire story on the guy who is seen on video throwing the first beer, quite a rap sheet and prior trouble with the law this dude has.

Which brings me to what I want to say regarding prosecutions:
Let the NBA do what it needs to do to the players, they did not initiate the first assault that crossed the line between players and fans.

The D.A. should do a complete investigation and determine the civilian combatants and prosecute them.

Jail them, prosecute them on assault charges, ban them from all city pro sports venues and generally make examples of them in the press and in the courts.

With fans like this, who needs enemies.

[Sandy]

They should also prosecute the Pacer players who went into the stands and attacked spectators. One simply seemed to attack spectators indiscriminatively. There was simply no justification for that.

Sandy

[93legendti]

That's where men like Dean Smith, Joe Paterno, John Thompson etc. come in.

The difference between David Thompson (only hardcore ACC basketball fans will know that name) and Michael Jordan is simple: Thompson was coached by Norm Sloan; Jordan was coached by Dean Smith.

Like my father (God rest his soul) used to say. "If you want to know who you are, just look at who you're with."

Thompson...with the 48" vertical leap who led the league in scoring?


Geez, everytime Stephen A. Smith opens his mouth to defend Artest, I can't help thinking what an idiot he is...of course he picked the Lakers over the Pistons in the 2004 Finals, so he must be an expert... :D

[Tom]

George Seldes, one of the great muckraking journalists of the 1930s and 1940s used to scrawl "Opiate del pueblo" across the top of the NY Times sports section every day. I never understood why until these past few years. Think about it. We seem to care about a bunch of thugs running about woofing and pounding on each other, or we argue at length about whether our favorite bike racer may or may not be a cheat. Meanwhile in the real world, we can't spare a moment to think about the complex problems that just get worse and worse. I guess that as long as our kids have sports to watch, we're cool. We won't be leaving them much else.

My brother Chris, many years older than I and a Brooklyn Dodgers fan until the day they decamped: "They're all whores."

Do a Google search on George Seldes. He was a trip. He was a neighbor of ours when I was a kid and the stories that guy could tell. Read any of his books, you'll see that nothing changes much.

[Sandy]

David Thomson was a remakably gifted athletic basketball player. I remember him as having really special talent, even for those in the NBA. He had a real impact on the NBA initially, but it was not long lasting. I don't remember what happened. Certainly a special talent and yes, he could really get HIIIIIGGGGHHHH in he air, especially so.

Soaring Scoring Senile Sandy

[toaster]

In this case prosecute the offending fans with a vengence! You want them to learn a lesson.

[Lost Weekend]

I agree, those idiot fans should get the "book thrown at them". I would of loved to of seen one of the tour riders, maybe magnus B, stop, unclip, and confront the spitters. :p

[zap]

How about that fassa bartolo rider (name ?) who punched an overzealous simoni fan in the face during the '02 (i think) Giro.

On a climb too...

[93legendti]

Wladimir Belli

[Dr. Doofus]

Belli to the Pistons

Alcala (for the Stephens nose-shot in the '94 Tour) to Indiana

The two spanish twits who duked it out in the Vuelta to ?????

Jerk's hoochie looks like she could kick some butt...maybe she goes to United?

[e-RICHIE]

interesting read, this thread is.
reminds me of the opinions re "trash talking"
and assertiveness issues that surrounded the
l.a. guy during the tdf - most folks seemed to
write that it was acceptable behavior and part
and parcel of the sporting personality. i'm still
not sure where the line is drawn.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . where Belli was thrown out of the Tour and it turned out later the abusive fan he punched out was Gilberto Simoni's nephew--no joke!

BBDave

[Ozz]

David Thomson was a remakably gifted athletic basketball player. I remember him as having really special talent, even for those in the NBA. He had a real impact on the NBA initially, but it was not long lasting. I don't remember what happened. Certainly a special talent and yes, he could really get HIIIIIGGGGHHHH in he air, especially so.

He fell down some stairs at Studio 54 and screwed up his back....I don't think there is any doubt he was doping...and it wasn't the kind that would "enhance" his performance on the court.

[Andreu]

"interesting read, this thread is.
reminds me of the opinions re "trash talking"
and assertiveness issues that surrounded the
l.a. guy during the tdf - most folks seemed to
write that it was acceptable behavior and part
and parcel of the sporting personality. i'm still
not sure where the line is drawn."

In my limited experience of managing people the problem lies in the confusion between aggressiveness and assertiveness. Some maleducated people don´t know where the line is. Punching someone is aggressive in my opinion.

[keno]

The following article is another man's, not altogether my own, view of the bigger NBA situation.

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=7422

BTW, I was wondering if the #91 Pacers shirt that Ron Artest wore will become a big seller in NBA stores - if they will now carry it - or from other outlets. For those who don't know the story, Artest at the beginning of the season changed his uniform number (previously #23 and before that #15) to #91, as a tribute to former NBA bad boy Dennis Rodman. It should be no surprise that the following interview in the Chicago Sun Times of Dennis tells us what it does.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/basketball/cst-spt-worm23.html

Despite being entrepreneurial, I think it speaks volumes that Artest has used post-fight interviews to promote his rap album (he had requested the Pacers time off to work on it and was benched for two games for his interesting attitude to his team and his $6 million job) rather than address the all-too real and deadly serious problems raised by the brawl.

keno

[dbrk]

Something strange, nothing new.

Our modern sports gladiators are invested in what the great French scholar Rene Girard (see his Violence and the Sacred) called "substitutional violence." This is an old saw but if you look at Gregory Nagy's Best of the Achaeans: Concepts of the Hero in Archaic Greek Poetry (Nagy was a prof of mine back then, over there on the river in Cambridge) or Jan Heesterman's The Broken World of Sacrifice (about Vedic sacrifice), you find out that sports as ritual public games function like other forms of dissimulated or substitutional violence. In other words, they take what would certainly be death and mean to transmute these emotions and acts into someting that let's society hold them in other terms of accountability. After all, what is at stake here is competition turning to conflict, aggression turning into efforts of submission, and now the whole matter being about justification, accountablity, and young men acting like adults (or not). Kleos (fame) and teemay (fortune), being a hair's breadth away from immortality, glory, madness and murder: we should hardly be surprised that in the 21st century and in America (leaving aside elsewhere) we use sports for these purposes, although we are just as fond of war, Hummers, "Like a Rock,"' and other forms of real and fake violence.

This may seem to some the usual academic nonsense easily dismissed. Americans love to dispise the intellectual and reflective. But the truth is, this incident is part of an ancient pattern and these scholars offer the serious study of human nature in the Classics (that's why they are classic, 'cause they still tell us stuff...) and it's nothing new at all. The players in this game may not be Hamlet and Caesar but basically the differences seem to lie more in degrees of literacy and vulgarity than in tragic content.

Personally I have soured on competitive sports, competitive bicycles, competitive this or that, I leave it to others, it's totally boring to me. I want to hang with interesting people, ride at whatever pace the day inspires and not give one crap about winning or losing or "meeting a challenge" or anything of the sort. I like other things. There are other ways to enjoy life than competition. I have have enjoyed this thread because it's about real stuff, actually deep stuff. Good of Climb to think aloud. Excellent comments all around.

dbrk

[keno]

dbrk, your eschewing interest in matters competitive brought to mind a piece I keep in my favorite articles collection. The piece is called "The Logic of Playing Dirty", by Alfie Kohn and is from his book "No Contest: The Case Against Competition", Houghton Mifflin Company, 1985. "For nothing can seem foul to those that win." Henry IV

keno

[Andreu]

I am not normally a big fan of Kipling but had to copy and paste this in, it being so apt....

If
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!