OT: winter training? X-country ski? MN

[BlackTiBob]

Any avid X-country skiers here? I'm thinking of taking it up here in MN to stay in better shape over winter.
I do elliptical 5 times a week and weights 5 times a week and some bike trainer at home. Bike 4500 miles in season.

My question is: what type would better fit my love of road biking, traditional cross country OR skating style??
Also, are there more miles of one type trail or the other available?
If you just go in the boonies, no trails, is traditional the only style you really can use?
Anu other suggestions greatly appreciated.
Bob
I'm in Mpls/St Paul and planning on renting at Elm Creek Park and taking lesson before jumping in and buying.

[93legendti]

I can't help with the skiing, but I started a thread about snowshoeing during the summer:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=48770&highlight=snow+shoeing

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=25718&highlight=snow+shoeing

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=24152&page=2&pp=15&highlight=snow+shoeing

[Karin Kirk]

Excellent choice Bob -- IMO, xc skiing beats the pants off riding indoors!

Skate skiing is typically a more aerobic workout. Classic skiing can be aerobic, but it can also just be shuffling along on skis at a walking pace. Skating requires trails groomed specifically for skating, while you can classic pretty much anywhere there is enough snow.

Skating requires good technique to be able to move along. To me, this is an advantage because it makes it all the more fun/challenging.

Classic requires really, really good technique to do it well. Great classic skiing is an art form. However anyone who can walk can also do so with skis on, so the range is huge.

Taking a lesson is the ideal way to find out which one suits you best. Take one lesson of each, and not on the same day! Wait 'til you're fresh. Allow for some practice time after the lesson to play with it. Then pick the one you like best and pursue the gear.

My pref is skating by far. But I also have a cheap classic setup for the time of year (now) when there is enough snow, but no grooming in town.

I started an XC thread around this time last year - you might dredge that up if you are so inclined.

[erikbrooks]

Any avid X-country skiers here?

That would be me

My question is: what type would better fit my love of road biking, traditional cross country OR skating style??

hard to say - many bikers find skating easier to pick up, and you move about 10-15% faster. i love 'em both.

Also, are there more miles of one type trail or the other available?

I can't help about MN - I live in Seattle.

If you just go in the boonies, no trails, is traditional the only style you really can use?

Yes. Skating requires groomed trails, and classic can be done with or without. Skating can work pretty well on trails groomed for snowmobiling, if you can ski them before the snowmobiles go over them. In WA, that means getting up pretty early, which snowmobilers mostly don't do. Those trails are not so good for classic. That option MAY expand your possibilities for skating by a lot. Local knowledge is key to this.

..

[endosch2]

XC Skiing is awesome - I do both classic and skate techniques - skate 80% of the time. I also have taught nordic at a big nordic center in the northeast. You have to have groomed trails for skating, or just the right snow conditions which are rare. Classic is more mellow but has its own appeal.

The problem with learning is that XC skiing is a weight transfer and balance sport, not like running or cycling (OK you have to balance on a bike but nothing like balancing on a very narrow ski while gliding along).

Skate skiing simulates mountain biking more than anything - you are moving up and down trails quickly at a fairly high intensity, with few long breaks for recovery. As you get better you can learn to relax more but it is hard.

My advice is to get some lessons by someone who knows what they are doing. With Skate skiing there is different equipment, and waxing becomes more of a factor. Skate skiing is absolutely awful and miserable if you have poor technique. It takes a while to learn to completely transfer your weight from one ski to the other, land and glide on a flat ski, and learn the various poling and tempo related techniques. On most peoples first time out they hate it and find it very hard.

Classic skiing can be done enjoyably with relatively poor technique and most people like it from the get go - but it can become boring because it is slower.

My advice is to start with Classic and master speed control, double poling, and weight transfer. Then make the change.

[giordana93]

I don't get to ski as much in Cleveland as I used to in Quebec, and haven't been in a shop to see what's out there these days, so take this with that caveat:
--if possible, I would get a boot that allows you to do both classic and skate. it will be a bit of a compromise, but can be back up boots for when you get serious and get a boot for more specialized needs (you will need to decide on the type of binding at this point)
--start with a pair of no-wax classic skis. they're cheap, you won't have to worry about figuring out wax, and they should be much easier to handle than skating skis (which are shorter, and kind of nervous like a good race bike: you want the slower touring bike to start); and when you graduate to some better skis, you can take these out in crappy conditions (or when classic skiing with people less fit than you)and not worry about them. the disadvantage of the no-wax is speed, but they are forgiving of less than perfect technique, and they aren't that slow (again, think nice race bike vs a comfort-touring rig). they will also be a bit wider than the speed-oriented waxed models so you can take them out in fresh deep powder--where skating is a no-go and skinny skis don't get enough float.
one more thing, it's almost impossible to "take it easy" on skate skis; kind of like trying to do the butterfly stroke in swimming, there's no "half-speed", so if you want some easy, enjoy-the-scenery days, go classic.
eventually you will probably want a set of each, so you could plan on that; wait for end of season sales or try to get a package. enjoy. it's really a beautiful sport

[KeithS]

There are a couple of guys I ride with in the summer and spin with in the winter who are members of a group called Ride and Glide. The group is sponsored by my local Serotta dealer (Now Bikes) a x-country ski shop (Finn SISU) and Hed Cycles. They are St. Paul guys, the "Ride" part in the summer starts out at White Bear Beach. Link to web site here (http://www.rideandglide.bizland.com/)
Pretty focused group, and they're great to ride with. Timely topic with this evenings snow. Elm Creek is a great place to ski too. Lights if you want to ski after work. PM me if you want more detail or need contact info.

[Clydesdale]

I definitely know less about skiing than everyone who has posted, so keep that in mind...

I'm a few hours south of you in Northern IA so somewhat similar conditions? Anyway, I picked up some classic skis a few years ago, nothing special just some decent waxless ones that I don't have to baby or maintain much. We have a local golf course that allows skiing and a local park with about a mile loop that is a biking, walking area in the summer. The park gets groomed occasionally. Anyway, for what it is worth, an hour of working hard on the classic skis can be a killer if you have even a few small hills and a decent trail. I like that the classics go anywhere, and even if the trail isn't allowing a good "glide" you can basically run on the skis and work your tail off. And when the trails are good you can really work on glide and push and give your thighs a great workout. I hope to try skating this season, but love the flexibility of classic. You might also look into some "backcountry" type skis - think cyclocross - if you don't have access to something at least occasionally groomed.

Again, keep in mind that I ski like a buffalo on roller-skates but I have an absolute ball and get great conditioning.

And Karin is right on - you'll laugh at the trainer on your way out of the house with skis!

[skijoring]

I second everything Clydesdale said, an inexpensive set of classic (waxless) skis or light backcountry skis is the way to get a good taste. It's fun skiing on single track, or abandoned roads and it's great not having to pay to play.

[endosch2]

I agree with what people have posted. As far as equipment goes you can get boots that can do a good job of crossover between the skate and classic technique, but forget about poles and skiis that do both. Skate skiis are much shorter, and have no wax pocket. Skate poles are typically 10CM longer than classic poles. The rule of thumb is that classic poles need to come to your armpit and skate poles need to come in between your chin and nose. I prefer a little shorter skate poles because I think they are better for climbing. Saloman has the most comprehensive boot selection. Reliable Racing in NY is a good web site to look at for prices and models, but a good local XC store should steer you in the right direction. Also a good XC ski store will have a glass box that you can stand on the skis and determine which flex is good for your weight.

My first pair of nordic skiis were a pair of high performace fish-scale (waxless) classic skiis. I got the proper length for my weight and they work for trail blazing and groomed tracks. The ski has to have a flex pattern so that the fish scales are engaged in the snow when you step down on the ski, and are released when you are not "kicking" down on the ski. This allows you to glide on the ski fairly effortlessly. Mine are Fischer, and I still use them all the time. I am 5'9" and the skis are 210 CM. My skate skiis are 190s but have been shorter when I was lighter. Most of my skiis are Fischer which seems to have always had a great line of nordic equipment.

In the past 10 years many of the ski stores have been selling shorter, wider skiis for beginner classic skiers. They offer a cheapo XC ski "package" with boots, skiis, poles. The thought is that they are more stable and easier to manuever. After instructing people on them I have come to the belief that they are basically long snowshoes. They dont glide and often are not properly selected for the user.

Whatever you do it is a blast to get out on skiis and I strongly encourage you to go for it. You will not regret it at all.

[BlackTiBob]

thanks for all the ideas.

More ideas are certainly welcome too.

I had thought about winter biking, studded tires etc but I'm not sure I want to go that route for conditioning in winter.
This ski thing just came to me and might be more enjoyable.

Although ski skating tends to make you work hard aerobically, tradit style gets the heartrate up too, if you go at a vigorous pace, right??

[giordana93]

thanks for all the ideas.

More ideas are certainly welcome too.

I had thought about winter biking, studded tires etc but I'm not sure I want to go that route for conditioning in winter.
This ski thing just came to me and might be more enjoyable.

Although ski skating tends to make you work hard aerobically, tradit style gets the heartrate up too, if you go at a vigorous pace, right??

--absolutely on the last point, you can easily get your heart rate up on classic (it's not an olympic sport for nothing!), and it's pretty much a full body workout. I would agree with what everyone else said above. my original point on the difference between the two techniques was this: on classic you can go as hard as you want, meaning you can take it easy if you want too. skating, to be enjoyable, requires some technique, and you pretty much can't slow it down too much or you can't carry any speed/momentum (again, think of trying to swim fly at half speed). on the other hand, the intensity, and especially the speed of skating is addictive: you fly up and down hills with only glide wax

[erikbrooks]

thanks for all the ideas.


Although ski skating tends to make you work hard aerobically, tradit style gets the heartrate up too, if you go at a vigorous pace, right??

Of course. Classic, also called striding, and what you are calling traditional, is lots like running. That's what we do lots of to train for classic racing, which I've done for the last 10 years.

Skating is very much like inline skating, which is one of the main training tools I use to train for ski skate racing. Most serious racers badmouth inline skates for training, but if you already have fine technique, they work well, and have brakes of a sort, which roller skis do not. Brakeless fixie bikes are much safer than rollerskis! Gotta be ready to dive for the ditches with those puppies!

As to the effort level of skating - I agree with the other posters - you just can't ease along while skating. It forces you to work at a fair effort level - much like my singlespeed bike - when I come to a hillclimb, I have to gun it on the SS bike or skate skis.

[Bittersweet]

Classic requires really, really good technique to do it well. Great classic skiing is an art form. However anyone who can walk can also do so with skis on, so the range is huge.

Snipped

I would just mention that most folks that are aerobically fit but not long time skiers gravitate to skating but that good, fast classic skiing is quite a workout and requires relentless focus on technique. With skating, for a while, you can get away with crappy technique and good fitness. With classic you'll get smoked and go ridiculously slowly. I'm fond of defending classic as it gets a bit of a bad rap. Most folks think pensioners shuffling around in the woods. Kick waxing is also a black art that once you begin to master it brings great joy when everything comes together. The original marathons are also done in classic if you wish to go old school (Vasaloppet, Birkebeinerrennet).

In MN you are in one of the hot beds of nordic skiing. Poke around and I'm sure you'll find a local club.

Finn Sisu (already mentioned) is a great resource and right near you. Give 'em a ring. Also:
www.fasterskier.com
www.masterskier.com

[dogdriver]

Pugsley. Stay out of the classic tracks, the skaters will have to just deal with the tire tracks...

[thwart]

I'd say, as a long time classic (nordic) XC skier, you can definitely get your heart rate up with that method. And, much like roller training for cycling, you must have good technique to do well.

And the art of waxing is a little bit like using tubular tires... ;)

You can literally go anywhere with classic skis. Skate skis, not really.

[rpm]

There are lots of places in the Twin Cities area to get inexpensive lessons in either classic or skating. It's the best way to learn. I took lessons through the City of St. Paul from Ahvo, who owns Finn Sisu. He's a great guy who knows everything about X-C. Also check out the North Star Ski Touring Club--a huge organization with lots of trips.



In MN you are in one of the hot beds of nordic skiing. Poke around and I'm sure you'll find a local club.

Finn Sisu (already mentioned) is a great resource and right near you. Give 'em a ring. Also:
www.fasterskier.com
www.masterskier.com

[endosch2]

OK, now that everyone has set you up with all advice concerning technique and equipment, let me give some XC ski fashion advice.

Remember - just like cycling - it is not how you feel, or how you ride, it is how you look that really matters.

At the nordic center that I frequent in the winter there are many cyclists who show up from the Boston area. It is a large area in New Hampshire so those in the area can start to make guesses. Anyway, the bike club group shows up in full cold weather cycling attire, complete with logoed cycling shorts pulled over tights, club jackets, etc. They appear to me as if they are saying "I am a hardcore roadie here doing my cross-training", or trying to make whatever statement they can. And then they usually kindof suck as skiiers (which would be excusable if they were not calling so much attention to them selves).

Even though I am a dedicated cyclist, I get the creeps a little when I see the pods of these folks. I get the same sinking feeling as when a triathelete shows up in sleeveless tank top jerseys and aero bars on a Tuesday night hammer ride. You dont need your chamois when you ski. Most real hot shot nordic skiiers dress in somewhat loose fitting yet insulated attire, lycra is left for race days.

I just had to dive deeper into that topic. I feel so much better now that I have aired this observation about our culture.

[Bittersweet]

OK, now that everyone has set you up with all advice concerning technique and equipment, let me give some XC ski fashion advice.

Remember - just like cycling - it is not how you feel, or how you ride, it is how you look that really matters.

At the nordic center that I frequent in the winter there are many cyclists who show up from the Boston area. It is a large area in New Hampshire so those in the area can start to make guesses. Anyway, the bike club group shows up in full cold weather cycling attire, complete with logoed cycling shorts pulled over tights, club jackets, etc. They appear to me as if they are saying "I am a hardcore roadie here doing my cross-training", or trying to make whatever statement they can. And then they usually kindof suck as skiiers (which would be excusable if they were not calling so much attention to them selves).

Even though I am a dedicated cyclist, I get the creeps a little when I see the pods of these folks. I get the same sinking feeling as when a triathelete shows up in sleeveless tank top jerseys and aero bars on a Tuesday night hammer ride. You dont need your chamois when you ski. Most real hot shot nordic skiiers dress in somewhat loose fitting yet insulated attire, lycra is left for race days.

I just had to dive deeper into that topic. I feel so much better now that I have aired this observation about our culture.

As I'm from NH and now live in W. MA I can guess but won't. Dead on. Like cycling - observe, play it cool, watch technique, listen, learn... Oh and just like glasses arms over helmet straps in cycling they always go outside the hat. Its all about the fashion ;)

[Karin Kirk]

I like the fashion tips! :)
I agree tights are a no-no, but I do wear cycling tops such as a vest, lightweight shell or cycling jacket. Hopefully that's no too dorky.

Glasses outside the hat - of course. Also, keep the hat level, don't tip it back on your head, which would result in the dreaded "gaper gap" between your hat and your glasses. Apparently if your ears are cold you should wear ear muffs of some sort, which I don't have.

[erikbrooks]

I like the fashion tips! :)
I agree tights are a no-no,

what's wrong with tights? I often wear running tights on the bike or on skis. If it works, use it.

IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/24ph0f7.jpg[/IMG]
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=24ph0f7&s=4
http://i38.tinypic.com/24ph0f7.jpg

Hmmm - none of these methods seem to embed the photo. Sigh.

[Karin Kirk]

Well if you're racing, as you are in the photos, then tights make perfect sense. But for just skiing, it seems that your basic Nordic pants are a little less, well... tight. But I'm no authority. I'm just a mediocre skier, and I'm not even very fashionable. This is just what I've observed. Even when I co-mingled with serious racers in West Yellowstone this fall, they were wearing outfits that were looser and seemed to be more functional for training, rather than a full-on race suit. (for example, the wind-front pants seem to be much more comfy than tights in anything but warm conditions.)

But like I said, I'm definitely not the fashion police on this one.

However, I did just come from an extended conversation with a table-full of alpine ski instructors who were engaged in a lengthy and animated conversation about the size of the PSIA patch on our new uniforms. This is serious stuff folks. :rolleyes:

[thwart]

what's wrong with tights? I often wear running tights on the bike or on skis. If it works, use it. 1+

First time out XC'ing yesterday, really great conditions for it! Unfortunately it's supposed to rain tomorrow.

I like the ability of my running/biking tights to shake off the snow when I fall (and yesterday, the downhill parts were fast...)

Now... to wear biking shorts over those, w/pad :butt:

[BlackTiBob]

thanks for all the tips on this and the fashion tips :)

I've checked out new equipment and have a set in mind, pending a lesson on Saturday, classic style, at Elm Creek Park.

I hope that goes well and it clicks 1/10 as much as road biking and I'll be happy. I'll keep my fingers crossed and my skis uncrossed, right?

If it goes well and I like it, then it's buy my own equipment, take more lessons??, and scout out places in Mpls and St Paul to go out.

[giordana93]

keep fingers crossed that it's not 10 below!
seriously, it won't be fun if you're freezing, so overdressing for the lesson is ok. once you get on some trails, you can generate a good amount of heat from working, but standing around during a lesson, probably in a more open area (vs. in the woods on trails which give some wind break) it's gonna be COLD. especially the normal victims: feet and hands

[93legendti]

We're in the midst of one Michigan's 5 worst snowfalls of all time...time to try out my snow shoes.

[giordana93]

in Cleveland, we're on the warm side of the front: 29 and freezing rain. my favorite.

[oldguy00]

Are there any good quality indoor machines that simulate skate skiing?? ie. not the classic movement such as nordic track..

[endosch2]

Are there any good quality indoor machines that simulate skate skiing?? ie. not the classic movement such as nordic track..


The only one I know is nordic track. You can use roller skis for street training for both skate and classic. Maybe someone needs to try roller skiing on a treadmill and report back. Are there any real wide long tread mills made for two perhaps that you could do skate style roller skiing on?

Now there is a new market for a tiny applicaiton....

[endosch2]

keep fingers crossed that it's not 10 below!
seriously, it won't be fun if you're freezing, so overdressing for the lesson is ok. once you get on some trails, you can generate a good amount of heat from working, but standing around during a lesson, probably in a more open area (vs. in the woods on trails which give some wind break) it's gonna be COLD. especially the normal victims: feet and hands


There are other pieces of anatomy that get cold when skiing too.

THATS IT!!! - we found why all the bike-wankers from Boston where their logo chamois shorts over their tights when the XC Ski!!!

[93legendti]

Metro Detroit is on track for a 10-inch snowfall, enough to rank today’s storm in the top five in December in recorded history, according to the National Weather Service.

I was out walking with snow shoes when my wife got her minivan stuck on our driveway and I had to "rescue" her. My legs were burning after 10 minutes and all I was doing was maintaining forward momentum. I think my 'shoes must be for hard pack, because I was sinking a few inches or more on every step. Great workout!

[spiderman]

15 degrees. no wind
11 inches of powder!
i packed my bib tights with chamois
just to honor this thread
and wore my ski bibs over the top...
one hour of pure pleasure!
nicest time on skis i can remember:
smooth, slow
deep and tough!
made me forget how much i like to ride bike...

[erikbrooks]

Are there any good quality indoor machines that simulate skate skiing?? ie. not the classic movement such as nordic track..

OH ya - :-)

http://www.teamnordicskiracer.com/cgi-bin/news/news_item.asp?NewsID=1843

the indoor skate part starts about in the middle of this video.

Maybe not a home unit tho - :-) Gotta luv the part that delivers and measures the air consumption.

More detail about the machine is at http://www.fasterskier.com/training2822.html

Seriously - the closest that you get would be a slideboard:

http://www.pro-slideboards.com/
There are cheaper slideboards that roll up - usually about 6 feet wide, that are probably OK to start. - and the cost is pretty low. I've used them at a gym, and they were really pretty good.

[erikbrooks]

.

[dharleyd]

does anyone here do the birkie in hayward?