Rider liability question..

[oldguy00]

Question for you guys...

We recently had an accident during an official club ride.
A rider pulled a bonehead move, which resulted in him knocking another rider off his bike. He fully acknowledged that the crash was his fault. We were riding single file, and the group as a whole was slowing slightly as we approached a set of train tracks. The rider was behind and going too fast, and in the course of trying to slow himself down, he slid his bike, slammed into and knocked the other rider to the ground...

The result to the crashed rider:
- badly broken wrist requiring surgery to put in screw and a plate, and about a week in the hospital waiting for said surgery.
- about 2k in damage to bike.
- pain and suffering, currently on morphine and will likely be in a cast for 2 - 3 months, followed by an estimated 5 - 6 months of physio.
- expenses for things he can no longer do for himself......like shoveling the driveway, etc etc.

Assume that:
- although it was a club ride, there is not much insurance benefit through the club
- the hospital and surgery cost was covered through medicare
- the rider who caused the accident has not once offered any assistance, financially or otherwise. Simply offered an apology.

We know that if it had been a car that hit the rider from the side and caused the above damage, we'd be in court suing the driver. But what do you do if it is another rider, and not a car? Is there an unwritten rule that a biker can cause unlimited damage to another biker and not be responsible for it? Obviously said injured rider is me... I'm getting mixed opinions locally.....some shy away from the question.....others say have a lawyer tap his plpd insurance (through home insurance?), partly because they think I deserve it, and partly because they want people in our club to understand they need to ride safe...

What would you guys do??

[paczki]

First, thanks for the Dura Ace -- just got it. And very sorry to hear about such an awful injury.

I think a club ride is a tacit assumption of risk, like a race. If the move did not have malicious intent, i.e. he did not ride into you to hurt you, I think it's unfortunate, and in this case really awful, but he owes you nothing other than an apology.

[oldguy00]

First, thanks for the Dura Ace -- just got it. And very sorry to hear about such an awful injury.

I think a club ride is a tacit assumption of risk, like a race. If the move did not have malicious intent, i.e. he did not ride into you to hurt you, I think it's unfortunate, and in this case really awful, but he owes you nothing other than an apology.

Thats what I was originally thinking too, but was getting mixed reviews locally...
As well, one lawyer that I have consulted, who is also a cyclist and very experienced in dealing with bike accidents, has told me I can absolutely go for plpd insurance.......but again....unwritten rules....
I miss my new Dura Ace... :)

[oldfatslow]

but the first rule of bike club is don't sue the members of bike club.

I don't think the other member of your club acted deliberately with intent to harm you or someone else. Crashes are part of the sport and the best way to mitigate them from happening is riding alone yet you elected to ride with your club.

I look at my club as a means to help develop other riders, even newbies, and share the sport I love with others. My risk of crashing is inherently higher riding with a group which includes less experienced riders than when I ride by myself but I make that trade off happily as I enjoy the social nature of being on the road, with the guys, sharing the sport we love.

Even limiting group riding only to those with experienced riders can mitigate the likelihood of crashes occuring but you just never know (watch any pro race and you'll see that even the guys with amazing bike handling with a moment of inattention can create havoc). I see it as an assumed risk of the sport.

I hope you heal quickly and are back on the road again soon.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Obviously you are injured both physically and financially and this other rider has legally acknowledged liability by offering an apology--hopefully in front of some witnesses. On the other hand, this rider may be a friend--or at least a riding acquaintance, and any potential witnesses may be as well. There could be some lasting bad feelings from any legal action that could compound the hurt for everyone.

Can you sit down and make a reasonably accurate estimate of just how much you will personally be out financially by the time all your treatment is concluded? Obviously, your bike is either heavily damaged or toast. You said the hospital and surgery cost was covered through medicare. What about the follow-up care? Physical therapy? Drugs? Durable medical devices like braces or crutches? Then there's the cost of paying someone else to do all the things you would ordinarily have to do yourself that still have to be done. That shoveling he driveway you mention, and housekeeping? Mowing the yard? Are your leaves raked yet?

My two cents . . . Try to get that estimate together and see how much it adds up to. Then consider just how much liability you personally feel this guy should have. How close a friend is he? How much have you ridden with him? Does he pull bonehead moves all the time, or is this a one in a million instance? Does he have insurance himself? If he IS a reasonably close friend, how much trouble would a claim from you on his insurance put him personally in? Or is he a total stranger who just showed up for the ride? Would he be amenable to a direct payment to you rather than an insurance claim? Have you already discussed the issue in any way with him?

A lot is going to depend on the answers to those questions. I wouldn't sue the bike club. Sure, you could, but they probably had you sign a release if they know what they are doing. They also might be left with a canceled policy, have to shut down, and lots more people would be hurt. Besides, let's be reasonable. What would you sue them for? Should they test each rider's skills before letting them participate in a group ride? The club didn't cause this guy to trip you up. They merely organized the ride.

Once you have your cost estimate, you should talk with the perp bonehead and see what his reaction is to some straight talk. If he's remorseful and wants to help, that's great. But if he shrugs you off and wants to avoid responsibility, then take that into account, check with your witnesses to make sure they would back up your account, and go ahead and file a claim.

BBD

[oldguy00]

thx. Yeah, I don't intend to try to pursue it, just wanted to know other's thoughts........ooooh...9:30AM.....time for my morphine.... :banana:

[oldguy00]

Obviously you are injured both physically and financially and this other rider has legally acknowledged liability by offering an apology--hopefully in front of some witnesses. On the other hand, this rider may be a friend--or at least a riding acquaintance, and any potential witnesses may be as well. There could be some lasting bad feelings from any legal action that could compound the hurt for everyone.

Can you sit down and make a reasonably accurate estimate of just how much you will personally be out financially by the time all your treatment is concluded? Obviously, your bike is either heavily damaged or toast. You said the hospital and surgery cost was covered through medicare. What about the follow-up care? Physical therapy? Drugs? Durable medical devices like braces or crutches? Then there's the cost of paying someone else to do all the things you would ordinarily have to do yourself that still have to be done. That shoveling he driveway you mention, and housekeeping? Mowing the yard? Are your leaves raked yet?

My two cents . . . Try to get that estimate together and see how much it adds up to. Then consider just how much liability you personally feel this guy should have. How close a friend is he? How much have you ridden with him? Does he pull bonehead moves all the time, or is this a one in a million instance? Does he have insurance himself? If he IS a reasonably close friend, how much trouble would a claim from you on his insurance put him personally in? Or is he a total stranger who just showed up for the ride? Would he be amenable to a direct payment to you rather than an insurance claim? Have you already discussed the issue in any way with him?

A lot is going to depend on the answers to those questions. I wouldn't sue the bike club. Sure, you could, but they probably had you sign a release if they know what they are doing. They also might be left with a canceled policy, have to shut down, and lots more people would be hurt. Besides, let's be reasonable. What would you sue them for? Should they test each rider's skills before letting them participate in a group ride? The club didn't cause this guy to trip you up. They merely organized the ride.

Once you have your cost estimate, you should talk with the perp bonehead and see what his reaction is to some straight talk. If he's remorseful and wants to help, that's great. But if he shrugs you off and wants to avoid responsibility, then take that into account, check with your witnesses to make sure they would back up your account, and go ahead and file a claim.

BBD

Suing the club was never a consideration. An honest guess of actual out of pocket expenses will maybe be around the 4k mark? Hard to predict.

I have a 1 year old son who I can now no longer change, bath, pick up, etc. I'm right handed, and of course that is what is injured. My wife is 2 months pregnant, so can't expect her to be shoveling and raking. So the personal stuff is pissing me off....

Regardless, I doubt it is something I will pursue. I don't think it would hurt this guy financially, other than maybe slightly raising his insurance rate....
I'm pissed that he has never once offered to help out with anything.
He is a 26 yo student, drives a 30k SUV and rides a 4k bike. I think he is the only rider from the club who didn't visit the hospital or offer to help out...
And yes, he admitted fault in front of the whole club, as well as online.....which is probabyly why the lawyer figured he'd have a field day with the guy... ;)

[sc53]

I do think it's odd that one would automatically think of suing a car driver for hitting a cyclist but not another cyclist. You could file a negligence lawsuit against the guy but you'd have to prove negligence and defend against claims of contributory negligence and assumption of risk etc. By the time you paid your lawyer and all the costs of a civil lawsuit I'd guess you'd be way over $4000. Plus would a jury agree with you that the other guy was negligent in a legal sense rather than just momentarily careless or inattentive? I'd guess that this would not be a real winner of a case for a negligence lawyer to take. Too many factors going against your getting a big jury award to make it worth his while.
Your accident also reminds me of what we dog owners often face--someone's dog injuring another dog whether accidentally or agressively. Normally the owner of the aggressor dog offers to pay all vet/med bills. But if its an accidental injury caused just by playing (which can be open to debate among the witnesses) it's not an automatic assumption that the owner of the biter will offer to pay. Rough playing is just part of owning a dog and letting it play with other dogs. Obviously these incidents can be a source of strong feelings.
Now if the dog bites a person--that's not cool no matter what the circumstances and the owner better run off fast if he doesn't want to be held to account!
All these scenarios bring up the question of how much risk of injury do we assume when we engage in sports and doggie games for fun? Obviously there will be differences of opinion.
Old Guy I hope you heal faster than expected and that it's a mild winter where you are!

[1centaur]

I would try to separate out doing something "wrong" from doing something "not quite careful enough, as it turned out." That should then lead to what you CAN get vs. what you SHOULD get. I suspect that will lead you not to pursue it.

If the other guy's insurance company would cut you a check, it would probably reflect avoidance of the cost of litigation rather than being something you were truly owed. That's the business they are in - taking money from policy holders for years, paying out a little on the first claim and then dropping the policy holder. That's an example of getting what you can, not what you should, assuming the rider was not riding with his eyes closed blissfully listening to his Ipod.

When my legal department at work negotiates contracts, they are careful to make the standard of care "gross negligence" not "negligence" because the arguability of one over the other is so different. This accident sounds like negligence to me, which falls well within the "things happen on bike rides with others" risk that you signed up for. Your injuries have nothing to do with fault, they are the way the cookie crumbles, IMO.

[oldguy00]

Old Guy I hope you heal faster than expected and that it's a mild winter where you are!

thx, but to be honest, i'm hoping for a heavy winter.....i'd rather pay for snow shoveling than have to look out the window on a nice day and know all the guys are out training while I'm stuck inside, like today...... :(
I'm hoping the surgeon will tell me that it is OK for me to start running soon, and some indoor trainer time...

[mavic1010]

Same thing happend to me a few years back. 16 yrs old kid on a ride, had his chain/rear der lock up and he flipped in front of his bike. Of course, I was behind him and ended just ramming into him. Result...a separated shoulder and about 2k damage to my bike and accessories. The worst part was the same thing happened the day before on the club ride with this kid. You would think that his parents would at least tell him to maintain his bike better.

The kid and the parents never offered to help fix the bike or even offered an apology. The kid's father dropped off my bike after the ride, since obviously I was at the hospital.

I ended up suing that family for damages, but their was a court case that had just been decided about another rider causing an accident to a fellow rider on an organized ride.

In the end I settled for 1k. Since I had no chance of winning.

[mike p]

You can sue anyone you want at any time you like, but your not likely to get a cent, to many things you can't prove. You assume risk whenever you race or ride with a bunch of other riders. It's sad, unfortunate and all that but it's part of biking,happens all the time in racing. Thats the reason some bikers won't ride with newbys or sketchy riders. It's not that there stuck up it's that the ramifications of going down can be huge! Hope you get well soon.

Mike

[BumbleBeeDave]

<<I don't think it would hurt this guy financially, other than maybe slightly raising his insurance rate....>>

The goal here would seem to me to be to make you financially whole, not hurt the other guy. There are a lot of options left for you short of suing him.

--Have you actually talked with him about it? Until you have, you can't possibly know for sure why he seemed to express no remorse. He may indeed just not care about anyone other than himself. Then again, he may just be scared, or have seen his own lawyer who told him to clam up. You also can't know if he might be willing to make you whole on his own. If you've made no verifiable effort to contact him--registered letter from you or your lawyer, for instance--then you have no way of knowing. You might be surprised what an "eat your lunch" letter from your lawyer would do, offering to let him settle amicably rather than have you ratchet things up.

--Was there a police report made about this incident? At the least, there would be an ambulance report if you were transported. What are the traffic laws about bicycle operators in your state? Is a bicycle a "vehicle?" If so, he's subject to the same laws about negligent operation that any car driver would be. If another car driver hit you and refused responsibility, wouldn't you pursue a claim with THEIR insurance company? Also, do you actually have to actually sue him in order to pursue a claim with his insurance company?

--If legal action is your only out, then what are the small claims limits in your state? What would be the practical difficulties of pursuing such a judgment if you won in small claims court?

I certainly understand your desire to move on, but you have plenty of options left to pursue that could still make you whole with minimal trouble. If it's worth $4k to you to just let it go, then so be it. But if you were just looking for others thoughts, then why post about it at all? Seem to me like you're looking for reasons to change your mind. Seems like $4k--or more--is a good enough reason to me to do just a bit more checking before walking away from this.

BBD

[oldguy00]

<<I don't think it would hurt this guy financially, other than maybe slightly raising his insurance rate....>>


BBD

You misunderstood. That was an answer to those who said - rule of bike club, no suing.
I have no desire to hurt the guy financially or otherwise.

[christian]

When you ride bicycles with other people, you assume the risk that someone may fall and or hit you. Sorry about your injuries and your bike.

[Tobias]

I think a club ride is a tacit assumption of risk, like a race. If the move did not have malicious intent, i.e. he did not ride into you to hurt you, I think it's unfortunate, and in this case really awful, but he owes you nothing other than an apology.+1

Sorry to hear about the injuries and affect on your daily life.

If I had to be responsible for accidentally hurting other riders or their equipment, I'd probably stop riding with others. I think each rider should look at his/her risk as if self-insured; carrying as much insurance as needed for themselves and their own equipment.

BTW, I've had equipment damaged by other riders' mistakes and they offered to pay for it. However, I told them it was not necessary.

[Dave]

It's awful when someone suffers significant and long lasting injuries due to another rider's lack of skill or attention, but it is a risk that should be anticipated. Riding in a group with wheels a foot apart is nothing like normal riding next to cars. To protect the club, riders might need to sign injury waivers, as is sometimes required to participate in a large organized ride. I would never think of suing a rider unless he actually did something deliberate to take me out. That could happen, but would still be hard to prove. If you get in front of someone and hit the brakes, it usually takes out the following rider, but not the person braking.

Having just been involved in a car/bike accident on Wednesday, I know that I will be fully compensated by the driver's car insurance, since she was at fault and got a 4-point ticket for not stopping properly at a stop sign. I would expect nothing if the rider who was with me just overlapped wheels and we went down. That can happen when someone stands to climb. You have to be careful and not assume that the lead rider is highly skilled.

In my accident, the other rider got hit by the car and flew into me, taking us both out. We'll both survive with cuts and bruises.

[Bikeclay]

Talk to the guy, Anyone can buy an expensive bike and ride it to fast. Group riding skills requires some mentoring from better riders. How to handle oneself after a crash takes the same sort of mentoring. Perhaps the club should have a conversation on whats a reasonable and/or have a crash kitty for helping out on bike repairs

Crashes happen, Bikes can go flying everywhere in one crash with only a bent rim and in another crash someone might dislocate a shoulder and destroy a carbon handlebar by not clipping out in time at a stop. The crash was his fault the severity was fate

[Ahneida Ride]

I seldom ride in groups for this very reason.

[Sandy]

I am mumbling to myself on this one- mumbling that I certainly don't see this as others here, including at least one lawyer.

If you were driving your car and you had an accident with another driver and it was clearly his fault, would you simply absolve the other motorist of damages/injuries that you/your car received? Very doubtful. If, in addition, the other driver was clearly negligent, would you absorb all expenses (not covered by your medical insurance) and not hold the other driver responsible? You would be willing to pay to fix your car? Pay non-covered expenses? I seriously doubt it. So why is the situation different with an accident caused to you by a negligent cyclist?

Some say that you assume responsibility when you ride with other cyclists. Why is that? You ride your cars every day with thousands of other drivers and you are not/should not be responsible for an automobile accident caused by a negligent driver? Please explain the difference.

Club responsibilty- Probably little, if any, both legally and ethically. I assume that there is a waiver that club riders sign and there certainly seemed like no negligent actions by the club occurred.

Your responsibility- You did not cause the accident. A negligent cyclist did. He didn't even visit you in the hospital or show any concern whatsover for you.

Other cyclist's responsibility- He was riding in a negligent manner. He admitted it. You have medical bills and expenses that you will need paid, and you have $2,000 in bicycle damages. I would think it his moral and legal responsibility (lawyer would give you legal responsibiity). You need to be made whole by the individual who caused the accident. Yes it was an accident, but it was his fault and not yours. Pain and suffering and additional future expenses like shoveling etc. may not be so clear as to responsibility legally.

Some here worry about legal expenses/litigation costs/ unknown court decision....Heck, you haven't even asked for him to be responsible for what he caused. He will also have legal fees/litigation expenses/unknown court decision. No one wants to go to court. You can stop the legal process wherever you want, if it goes that way.

A cyclist, who was negligent, and admitted he was negligent , was the only club member who did not visit you in the hospital or offer to help out, was the cause of you being in the hospital, having surgery, needing rehab,..., having future out of pocket expenses,.... He should be held responsible for your expenses. Not to make any money because of said accident, but to made whole. How he gets the money to pay your bills he caused is his responsibility. He has, to me, both an ethical and legal responsibility.

Sandy

[morty]

A few years back, a woman in our bike club sued another rider for unintentionally causing her to crash and injuring her thumb. The charges were deemed as frivolous and dismissed by the judge, a ruling most all of the other club members agreed with.

It's too bad this person who caused your injuries hasn't stepped up to offer some compassion and assistance, something it sounds like is all you really wanted.

I hope you heal completely and can get back out riding soon!

[zap]

It's a sport.

Would you sue if someone wacked and broke your hand while playing hockey? Slashing is what, a two minute penalty.

Get well.

[rePhil]

I have read about insurance coverage and maybe I read right through it but what type of insurance would cover this? Homeowners? Auto?

[Pete Serotta]

Unfortunately **** happens and we can do nothing about it. Sorry about your injuries and the bike....glad it is not the beginning of the summer. It would have been nice if the party would have offered to repair your bike for you BUT those folks are few and far between. SPOKES was on his maiden voyage of DK Special when someone wiped him out - -- bike back to Kirk, new levers, etc.....not even a "I'm sorry" WE must really be careful of who we ride with.


When you ride bicycles with other people, you assume the risk that someone may fall and or hit you. Sorry about your injuries and your bike.

[oldguy00]

I am mumbling to myself on this one- mumbling that I certainly don't see this as others here, including at least one lawyer.

If you were driving your car and you had an accident with another driver and it was clearly his fault, would you simply absolve the other motorist of damages/injuries that you/your car received? Very doubtful. If, in addition, the other driver was clearly negligent, would you absorb all expenses (not covered by your medical insurance) and not hold the other driver responsible? You would be willing to pay to fix your car? Pay non-covered expenses? I seriously doubt it. So why is the situation different with an accident caused to you by a negligent cyclist?

Some say that you assume responsibility when you ride with other cyclists. Why is that? You ride your cars every day with thousands of other drivers and you are not/should not be responsible for an automobile accident caused by a negligent driver? Please explain the difference.

Club responsibilty- Probably little, if any, both legally and ethically. I assume that there is a waiver that club riders sign and there certainly seemed like no negligent actions by the club occurred.

Your responsibility- You did not cause the accident. A negligent cyclist did. He didn't even visit you in the hospital or show any concern whatsover for you.

Other cyclist's responsibility- He was riding in a negligent manner. He admitted it. You have medical bills and expenses that you will need paid, and you have $2,000 in bicycle damages. I would think it his moral and legal responsibility (lawyer would give you legal responsibiity). You need to be made whole by the individual who caused the accident. Yes it was an accident, but it was his fault and not yours. Pain and suffering and additional future expenses like shoveling etc. may not be so clear as to responsibility legally.

Some here worry about legal expenses/litigation costs/ unknown court decision....Heck, you haven't even asked for him to be responsible for what he caused. He will also have legal fees/litigation expenses/unknown court decision. No one wants to go to court. You can stop the legal process wherever you want, if it goes that way.

A cyclist, who was negligent, and admitted he was negligent , was the only club member who did not visit you in the hospital or offer to help out, was the cause of you being in the hospital, having surgery, needing rehab,..., having future out of pocket expenses,.... He should be held responsible for your expenses. Not to make any money because of said accident, but to made whole. How he gets the money to pay your bills he caused is his responsibility. He has, to me, both an ethical and legal responsibility.

Sandy
thx Sandy, I totally agree on the ethical side. On the legal side, I don't know, but the consensus seems to be that he is not responsible for injuring me. I too find it interesting that no one here would hesitate to sue a driver for knocking them off the bike, but not another rider.
Anyway, I'll likely eat the expenses myself....

[Ti Designs]

I would try to separate out doing something "wrong" from doing something "not quite careful enough, as it turned out." That should then lead to what you CAN get vs. what you SHOULD get. I suspect that will lead you not to pursue it.

I agree with this 100%, but I must warn you that the union of late night advertising, ambulence chasing lawyers is about to come down on you like a ton of bricks for writting such a thing on a public forum...


Driving and riding are different in that driving is an agreement between the driver and the state which issued the license, which is why there are inspections and mandatory insurance. Riding a bike falls under the heading of an activity or sport.

In this case I do see a moral responsibility which is hard to ignore, but also very hard to inforce. While I don't think the courts will help, public opinion within the club might. I've seen things like this many times, it's all a matter of who this person is and the responsibility they FEEL - not what they've admitted.

I seldom ride in groups for this very reason.

Somehow I just knew this was going to come up. A good group ride is both a risk and it's own reward - anyone who's done a sport like rock climbing know how the two live together. It need not be as dangerous as it sounds if two things happen. First, the more experienced riders take on the responsibility of pointing things out to the riders who are causing the danger. Second, the newer riders receiving that advice need to put their ego aside and learn something. The third thing (I know I said two...) is that some assumptions can't be made. Each group has it's own rules which aren't printed anywere and seem pointless or stupid to people from outside the group. I've been yelled at plenty of times for doing things that were against the group's rules - passing on the outside (most pacelines rotate counterclockwise, so I don't get that rule at all) or making contact with another rider to name a few.

[regularguy412]

I didn't read all the posts. So if this is redundant, please excuse.

If you are a member of the club, vis-a-vis paying dues, have you checked into the possibility of the Club having ride insurance? Our club has (or at least 'had' the last time I was an officer in same) such insurance. The insurance may not pay for bike repair expenses, but it may help cover some of the personal injury costs. The only 'real' requirement necessary to utilize such insurance was that each member on the ride be listed on the insurance form turned in at the beginning of the year and must be properly wearing a helmet while on the group ride. This was true for our 'sanctioned' rides, like Centuries, and also for our weekly group rides.

If this is the case, you might still recoup some expenses without having to sue anyone.

Hope you feel better soon!:)

MIke in AR:beer:

[mandasol]

A group ride is a little different than a race. In a race you are (normally) in a closed course and pretty much you ride at your own risk. In a group (road) ride you ride on public roads, and still should be held accountable to obey laws for using those roads, and you should be able to expect the same chances of risk and liability as if you were by riding by yourself or in a car.

When we share the road with drivers we should be held to the same laws, and we should obey all traffic laws including signal our intent to drivers. If doing all those things and a negligent driver hits a bicyclist (ie. drives through a stop sign, cuts off a rider to make a turn) then the driver should be held at fault. If the cyclist did not obey traffic laws (ie. runs a stop sign, not signal for a turn) then the cyclist should be held at fault.

However, the biggest difference between cars and bikes is that cars have signals and lights. It's our legal responsibility to maintain our cars so that all of your signals and brake lights work, and we are legally responsible to use them to properly warn other drivers of our intent. Riding a bicycle is no different, and since we don't have lights we use our hands for traffic signals, left, right, stopping.

Riding in a group does not waive our responsibility to obey traffic laws. We should be mindful of cars and other cyclists. That means we have the responsibility to signal when we're turning and stopping, even in a pace line and five other guys are doing the same thing.

In the case of the OP I wonder if you gave a clear signal that you were slowing down. If you feel the other rider should be held responsible, even in the least, then you should be held accountable for doing your part as well. Even if the other rider admits his fault, are you completely faultless? How much warning did you give the other rider when you slowed down, if any?

Regardless of legal responsibility to signal, if you're more experienced and the other rider didn't know the course, it's common courtesy, and a good safety precaution to point out (yell out) things ahead of time.

For the record, I don't support filing suit against other club riders, unless there was malicious intent. Though I do believe we should obey all traffic laws, especially giving full warning to cars or other cyclists of our moves, and if we're riding with people we don't know maybe even being like that elderly driver that signals for a turn a half mile ahead of the turn.

[nm87710]

Unless the rider that ran into you did so intentionaly or with malice you likely don't stand in chance court. ****e happens - especially in dangerous situations. Riders voluntarily assume additional risk every time they ride with a group of unknown riders, with a wide range of skills, at unsafe following distances, with very little protective gear and likely in an unsafe manner. Crashing happens everyday and everyone will crash eventually. It's just part of the game. I'm continually amazed at how many people are unaware of how dangerous the sport of cycling is both from a financial & physical standpoint. In cycling everytime we throw a leg over a bike and go for a ride we risk everything we have, know and love.

Be careful out there :)

[1centaur]

I think the difference between pursuing a car driver and pursuing a bicycle rider is that the system can't be bothered to differentiate between various levels of negligence in car driving (thus no fault states) because it takes so much effort to do so given how many people drive cars and thus the high volume of cases. Surely most car accidents involve various contributing factors, including the actions of other drivers, the condition of state-maintained roads, the quality of driving instruction received, the indifference of the licensing authorities, and on and on. If every car accident was studied from all angles and adjudicated to assign blame where blame could arguably be cast, it would NOT be a no-brainer to go after the guy's car insurance all the time. Those scrutinized cases are saved for accidents that create major damages. What has developed over time is a system where insurance companies just pay out on the small stuff under vaguely similar circumstances (because we are in the aggregate willing to pay more insurance dues for that system and lawyers have made it so expensive to argue even valid points). Further, the potentially deadly nature of a car hitting something carries with it a weight of responsibility that is insured, expensively, by societal agreement.

A cycling accident is like an injury during any sport, or being injured when your fellow hiker tumbles into you because he wasn't looking where he was going and stepped on a loose rock. There's a tacit agreement for those circumstances that is different from the explicit pact made about car driving - there's a higher standard for liability because the circumstances are more voluntary and the consequences usually less dire. There is no agreement in society that everyone should be made whole for all bad things that happen to them where somebody else is the catalyst. Good thing, or we'd need even more lawyers.

[Blue Jays]

If that fellow rider is also habitually careless, it is essential for the group to point out the error of his ways to help him improve as a rider. If poor skills are not corrected, he should be shunned from the group. We have a guy affiliated with our group who is a absolute nightmare on a bike. He recognizes his skills are deficient, he tries to improve, but knows that he will never be a top-notch rider. He compensates for this by always riding well-behind the last "real" rider in our group, but still enough to secure incremental drafting benefit.

Another rider always wished to ride with TT bars on our group rides. We told him he is welcomed to ride with us when he has replaced the TT bars with standard handlebars on his machine. In that case, we had to show the guy to the door because he didn't wish to change his equipment and we recognized it as an accident waiting-to-happen emong our group.

An offer from the at-cause rider to help defray costs certainly would have helped him from a karmic sense. If I took someone out, I would be all over trying to assist them with repairs...

[Dave]

The mention of no fault states, makes me wonder what happens when a negligent driver, like the one who caused my recent wreck, hits a cyclist? Does the cyclist's CAR insurance, with maybe a $1000 deductible kick in? In my case the errant driver's insurance pays, at it should be.

I'd be pi$$ed if some driver's negligence cost me a $1000 deductible. What about pain and suffering damages? I expect that too, if a car hits me due to the driver's negligence.

[ThomasAylesbury]

I was run over by a car, c1 fracture, subdural hematoma, L4, L5, S1 herniated discs. 3 lumbar surgeries later, facing a 4th. Bottom line is. In a court, fellow cyclist who ran me over is liable, as well as other riders in front of him, whom did not point out trash in road which fellow hit, who knocked me down. I was riding double, which is legal. as road was not busy, which it is not. Home owners insurance policy's are being sued. My medical insurance company is going after them, never mind me. I have permanent damage to nerves in hands, legs and feet. Yes, pursue this. You are not sueing him, he has insurance.

[scrooge]

Seems to me that if you would do this you should be prepared to ride alone for the rest of your life. IMHO.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Seems to me that if you would do this you should be prepared to ride alone for the rest of your life. IMHO.

Nothing has been said that I have seen about whether this other rider is a regular club member, a visitor, a pain in the you-know-what, or whatever. To imply that the victim will himself be shunned for standing up for his rights is ridiculous. For all you know, this rider who caused the injury is hated by everyone in the club and oldguy will be treated like a hero for teaching him a lesson.

If this guy took me down for whatever reason--negligence, anger, screwing around, whatever--I would be pursuing every option to get my expenses back, if not something for pain and suffering that would teach him some sort of lesson, or at least enough to be more cautious in the future lest he get taken to the cleaners again.

In fact, I'd be pursuing it all the more intensely if the guy who took me down displayed as little compassion or remorse as has been described by the OP. I can forgive an awful lot and just move on in the face of a sincere expression of concern and remorse and a heartfelt "I'm sorry." I have done so in the past when such apology is sincerely offered. But there's few things that get me as angry as someone who inflicts injury, knows what they've done, and deliberately tries to avoid any kind of responsibility.

Unfortunately our system today that handles this sort of stuff discourages any expression of sympathy or responsibility. Saying "I'm sorry" no longer means you're sorry, it just means you're liable. With insurance picking up the bills, it also has bred a culture where there often IS no personal responsibility or accountability. People can be negligent and just walk away, with insurance covering the bills. If they're well off it means nothing to them to simply get their premiums hiked. In many cases the victim has to go through as much pain and suffering in trying to be made whole as they went through in the original injury.

BBD

[Charles M]

No way I would go to court.

No malice, no trash talking, no intent, no history or prior requests for that rider to stay clear of the group = No lawyers.



Riding a group ride is a LOT like going to a track day for Motorcycles.



You would get laughed at initially, and then simply allowed no where near any other track if you sent lawyers at someone for simply making a mistake a group event.

That's not saying you couldn't potentially get some sort of settlement or judgement. You could. But (and I don't mean this at all to be nasty) I would personally have nothing what ever to do with you on a bike ride and the groups I ride with would simply tell you to ride some place "safer than our group".

You can also bet that the groups I ride with would have had at the guy for not helping you out and I can tell you he wouldn't be riding with us either.


That said, the guys an a$$ for not offering to help and you should be pissed.

[scrooge]

BBD (and OP):
I didn't mean my comment to sound as snarky as it probably came off. Sorry about that.

The thought behind the comment was that (from my perspective), riding in a group always involves risk. As others have stated, it's a part of the sport. When I'm riding with friends, club-mates, whatever, I realize that stuff happens. It seems to me that's part of the risk of the deal. My initial thought was that, if someone doesn't get that and I have to worry about them sueing me, I really don't want to take the risk of riding with them (and doubt many others would).

Then again...while I clearly don't want to cause harm to another rider, it never occurred to me that part of the risk I might be assuming is doing something stupid and having to pay for someone else's bike, hospital bills etc. Maybe it should be.

Or maybe I should just get all my pals to sign waiver forms when they ride with me.

Nothing has been said that I have seen about whether this other rider is a regular club member, a visitor, a pain in the you-know-what, or whatever. To imply that the victim will himself be shunned for standing up for his rights is ridiculous. For all you know, this rider who caused the injury is hated by everyone in the club and oldguy will be treated like a hero for teaching him a lesson.

If this guy took me down for whatever reason--negligence, anger, screwing around, whatever--I would be pursuing every option to get my expenses back, if not something for pain and suffering that would teach him some sort of lesson, or at least enough to be more cautious in the future lest he get taken to the cleaners again.

In fact, I'd be pursuing it all the more intensely if the guy who took me down displayed as little compassion or remorse as has been described by the OP. I can forgive an awful lot and just move on in the face of a sincere expression of concern and remorse and a heartfelt "I'm sorry." I have done so in the past when such apology is sincerely offered. But there's few things that get me as angry as someone who inflicts injury, knows what they've done, and deliberately tries to avoid any kind of responsibility.

Unfortunately our system today that handles this sort of stuff discourages any expression of sympathy or responsibility. Saying "I'm sorry" no longer means you're sorry, it just means you're liable. With insurance picking up the bills, it also has bred a culture where there often IS no personal responsibility or accountability. People can be negligent and just walk away, with insurance covering the bills. If they're well off it means nothing to them to simply get their premiums hiked. In many cases the victim has to go through as much pain and suffering in trying to be made whole as they went through in the original injury.

BBD

[rex]

In my local club, the waiver that members must sign to join and that guests must sign to ride, releases the club and all of its members from responsibility for any injury or loss, caused by any other member, or reason, during any club ride or activity. I would assume that most other clubs have similar releases.

[Pete Serotta]

Folks, states are all different in laws and the only parties that know if there is a case or if there should be a case are the parties' legal representation.

As others have mentioned, anyone can sue and one of the two parties will prevail. THose are the only two quantified facts.

All the rest of us, just have opinions, and for that matter so do the affected parties and their legal consul.


Thanks everyone for keeping it as a discussion,,,, :D :D

[BumbleBeeDave]

BBD (and OP):
I didn't mean my comment to sound as snarky as it probably came off. Sorry about that.

. . . Engaged my fingers before consulting with brain! :rolleyes:

We clearly don't have enough total information here. I shouldn't have spouted off. We don't know anything (yet) about what the club's official reaction to this is, either. Pez Tech makes some very good points. As with anything else, there would be some context there. Does the club have any kind of "official" reaction? Has the club officially banned the perp from further group rides? Does the club even have any way of doing so? Has the club made any official expression of support for the victim? Does their particular release waiver cover the club AND all the riders who show up, as Rex points out, or just the club? Have there been any incidents like this in the past with this particular club and what was the outcome?

I don't recall any policy being listed in my local club's ride leader manual that would let a ride leader deal with the situation . . . If I am leading a group ride and somebody shows up who has caused other incidents--and injuries--in the past and has been asked to stay away, what do I do? Cancel the ride? Call the police? After all, it's a public road we're riding on. I do recall language in the manual to cover a rider who shows up and refuses to wear a helmet. I'm supposed to explain the club rules to him and if he still refuses to wear one or leave, then I'm supposed to inform him that he's not part of our ride. I don't recall it saying so in the manual, but personally I'd also make darn sure a lot of people heard me tell him.

If the person who caused oldguy's injury is part of the "inner circle" of the club, then oldguy might indeed be faced with being ostracized if he simply stands up for his rights and tries to get some satisfaction to cover the cost of his injuries. I've been in that clique situation myself--shut out of the "cool kids' bike group" because I didn't kiss the leader's patoot and ride the way they were riding, which I considered unsafe. Fortunately there were--and are--plenty of other people and groups to ride with in this area. I bet the same is true where oldguy lives. Frankly, if something like what he describes happened and the club didn't show some degree of support, then I'd be the one avoiding them in the future because they will have shown they don't have much regard for my safety and the same thing could too easily happen again.

BBD

[toaster]

This is one of the most intriquing threads I've seen.

We should ask Velonews' Bob Mionske about this topic.

[Blue Jays]

"...Does the club have any kind of "official" reaction? Has the club officially banned the perp from further group rides?

~ and ~

I don't recall any policy being listed in my local club's ride leader manual that would let a ride leader deal with the situation . . . If I am leading a group ride and somebody shows up who has caused other incidents--and injuries--in the past and has been asked to stay away, what do I do? Cancel the ride? Call the police? After all, it's a public road we're riding on..."BBD, you're 100% correct in that only so much can be dictated about a public road.
The method we've employed in the past when someone has been told they're no longer welcome is by changing meeting time & location and ensuring the problematic rider is not informed.
Works like a charm, increases safety, and really drives a point.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . if indeed there has been any official club response to the incident or expressions of support from other club members.

BBD

[oldguy00]

. . . if indeed there has been any official club response to the incident or expressions of support from other club members.

BBD

Other club members have certainly visited and inquired as to my well being. Other than that, no 'official response'. Not sure what that would be anyway. Some have encouraged me to follow through with trying to get insurance $$, others have said sh*t happens. I still don't think I'll bother. To answer some questions:
- the rider is new to our club this year and is an average rider with not so great handling skills. Triathlon background......need I say more...;)..Overall a decent guy, but immature. Our club pretty much lets the riders decide which group to ride with, which is probably a bad thing.
- I believe we do sign a waiver at the beginning of the year.
- I don't really feel comfortable calling him and saying "why aren't you helping out at all?". He should be calling me. If I am going to 'ask' him for money, I'd rather have a lawyer do it. But again, don't plan to..


Getting good at typing with one finger on my left hand...
Been 2 weeks sine the accident, 1 week since I had surgery. Go to see the surgeon on Dec 4th to get stitches out and get another cast or splint on the arm.....I find the bones don't seem to hurt a whole lot, but the muscles over and under the forearm, and the muscles going into my fingers, hurt a lot (fingers were not impacted at all in the crash). Not sure if that is muscle spasms from the wrist causing them all to hurt...

[OldDog]

I played an officer in our club for a number of years and chaired a bunch of centuries. We always obtained our club insurance through LAW/LAB. You may wish to ask your club president about available insurance and if he filed an incident report, as required by the LAB insurance carrier. You may find a little relief there for medical expenses.

You mention you have a baby. You take part in risky sport. Please consider some sort of disabiity and life insurance to assure your family is well protected.

Hope you heal fast and fully and are back out riding soon. Take care.

[malcolm]

You can always find a lawyer to sue over anything, doesn't make it right though.

Unless this guy did something malicious then it is the cost of doing business unless you choose to live life in a bubble there are risks and if you choose to ride a bicycle in a group of people you may or may not know that is a risk you chose to take.

I'm sorry for anyone that has been injured, but I don't buy the you are suing the insurance company not the person. That is just lawyer talk to make you feel better about suing someone. Trust me from friends that have had malpractice cases it will follow you the rest of your life even if you win.

Myself personally, if I caused such an incident I would feel responsible and do what ever I could to make restitution, but it troubles me how quick we are to call in the lawyers. Kids get hurt on the playground and parents sue one another. Grown men riding bicycles crash and sue one another. Lets take personal responsibility make our own risk assessment and then either do it or not.

I seldom ride in groups with people I don't know (except the yearly century rides, where I would never sue if injured).

[oldguy00]

You mention you have a baby. You take part in risky sport. Please consider some sort of disabiity and life insurance to assure your family is well protected.



Long since taken care of. :)

[oldguy00]

You can always find a lawyer to sue over anything, doesn't make it right though.
.

I agree. Although I do still find it interesting that if it had been a car, and not a rider, that caused the same accident, everyone here would sue the driver...

Anyway, I guess the bottom line is that the situation is somewhat typical for our sport, but made worse by the fact that the rider who caused it hasn't stepped up to the plate.
I guess the only thing to really do is speak with the club executive on how to prevent in the future. And to run over buddy's bike in the parking lot......... ;)

[saab2000]

I agree. Although I do still find it interesting that if it had been a car, and not a rider, that caused the same accident, everyone here would sue the driver...



I think we hold people in cars to a higher standard than those on bikes because of the inequity of forces involved.

Cycling is an inherently risky activity. There is no absolute safety.

[BumbleBeeDave]

You can always find a lawyer to sue over anything, doesn't make it right though.

Unless this guy did something malicious then it is the cost of doing business unless you choose to live life in a bubble there are risks and if you choose to ride a bicycle in a group of people you may or may not know that is a risk you chose to take.

I'm sorry for anyone that has been injured, but I don't buy the you are suing the insurance company not the person. That is just lawyer talk to make you feel better about suing someone. Trust me from friends that have had malpractice cases it will follow you the rest of your life even if you win.

Myself personally, if I caused such an incident I would feel responsible and do what ever I could to make restitution, but it troubles me how quick we are to call in the lawyers. Kids get hurt on the playground and parents sue one another. Grown men riding bicycles crash and sue one another. Lets take personal responsibility make our own risk assessment and then either do it or not.

I seldom ride in groups with people I don't know (except the yearly century rides, where I would never sue if injured).

That's why I still think oldguy should at least give this guy a call and see what kind of reaction he gets. The guy may in truth feel awful about what happened, but be scared to death that if he says anything it will be interpreted as an admission of guilt and he will be sued. He may really be a good guy and just not know quite how to do the right thing in this situation. In fact, he could be reading this very thread right now. He might in truth want to call oldguy and see if he can help, but once again be scared to do the right thing.

If you contact the guy and get a good reaction, then great. If you do and he blows you off, you've not really lost anything further. Can't hurt, might help. Malcolm is right about how these days everyone is so quick to call in lawyers that things that could be settled with a short conversation get blown out of proportion. but unless you actually do talk to the guy you don't truly know.

Also, keep in mind there is a huge difference between filing a claim with the guy's insurance company and suing him. Again, if you file a claim and they blow you off, you've lost nothing. You don't have to carry it any further if you don't want to. But I bet they wouldn't blow you off. They'd probably offer some sort of compensation, even if it doesn't fully cover all your losses. If it were me, I'd do at least all the polite things to see if compensation is available. $4k will buy an awful lot of diapers . . . :rolleyes:

BBD

[malcolm]

I think there are marked differences between bikes and cars even though we supposedly have to follow the rules of the road. Bikes in a group ride closer together than most anyone short of nascar would consider safe therefor the whole group of cyclists are probably negligent. I'm sure there are many other subtle and not so subtle differences.

I think talking with the guy may be a good idea although I suspect oldguy, like me probably feels his remorse or doing the right thing shouldn't have to be coerced and if this guy is such an asshat he hasn't even contacted him knowing the extent of his injuries I may just wash my hands of him.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I think talking with the guy may be a good idea although I suspect oldguy, like me probably feels his remorse or doing the right thing shouldn't have to be coerced and if this guy is such an asshat he hasn't even contacted him knowing the extent of his injuries I may just wash my hands of him.

. . . but life has taught me it's generally a bad idea to jump to conclusions and make assumptions. All of our observations about this "perp" and his motivations--or lack of them--are both.

BBD

[oldguy00]

dumb question.....-is- there really a difference between 'suing', and filing a claim against his plpd?

Hate to think of him as a 'perp'.......he is a nice guy, just apparently too immature to know how to handle this sort of situation....
But I just don't feel comfortable calling him myself and essentially asking him to pay up...plus, I'm pretty sure he feels like many of the people here, that I essentially took my risks by riding with him, and thus while he knows it is his fault and has offered a basic appology, I don't think he feels he owes more than that....

[jbrainin]

<deleted>

[toaster]

dumb question.....-is- there really a difference between 'suing', and filing a claim against his plpd?

Hate to think of him as a 'perp'.......he is a nice guy, just apparently too immature to know how to handle this sort of situation....
But I just don't feel comfortable calling him myself and essentially asking him to pay up...plus, I'm pretty sure he feels like many of the people here, that I essentially took my risks by riding with him, and thus while he knows it is his fault and has offered a basic appology, I don't think he feels he owes more than that....

Here's an idea:

email him this thread!

[BumbleBeeDave]

But I just don't feel comfortable calling him myself and essentially asking him to pay up...

. . . it's totally your call. I just hope you got the spectrum of comment you wanted here from all of us to be clear in your own mind as to what you might want to do. It's clearly a fascinating subject for any of us who've been on a group ride at one time or another and seen someone riding like a blind man and wondered what would happen IF . . .

BBD

[CNY rider]

. . . it's totally your call. I just hope you got the spectrum of comment you wanted here from all of us to be clear in your own mind as to what you might want to do. It's clearly a fascinating subject for any of us who've been on a group ride at one time or another and seen someone riding like a blind man and wondered what would happen IF . . .

BBD

Geez Dave, plugging Spectrum, IF like this.....

I thought you were playing for the home team? ;)

[BumbleBeeDave]

Tom bribes me with rib sauce . . . :rolleyes:

BBD

[Chris]

As maddening as his actions and lack of effort in taking responsibility for them are, I don't think you even deserve to be compensated. That sounds really harsh, and I in no way at all mean it that way. I am talking about this situation in general rather than in your specific case. I don't think you want to head down that slippery slope of suing someone who caused a crash on a group ride. We are a couple of well-publicized law suits from group ride accidents from ending them all or having them have to be USAC "training rides" where you have to buy insurance at the start of the ride in order to be able to be on it. Ask the shop in PA where a group ride passed a solo rider. She crashed and sued the identifiable riders on the ride and the shop from where it started. You can imagine all the different scenarios.

Anyway, you sue people driving cars, because they are following the rules of the road which they are supposedly trained for and licensed to be on. In most accidents there is a clear violation of the law and someone responsible for braking that law. We don't have that on group rides. You show up on a group ride and you must make the assumption that your body and property are at risk to be seriously damaged. As fun as those rides are (and I still do a lot of em) I see a bunch of total boneheaded moves on each and every one. It is amazing that more people don't get hurt. I'm really sorry for your pain and the damage to your stuff, but you just have to chalk it up as a loss and move on. My $0.02

EDIT: Just read back over some posts and saw that the guy is a triathlete. Sue his a$$ for everything he has... :)

[oldguy00]

Agree on most of your points. Perhaps a better title to the thread would have been "Rider Moral Responsibility"......

[Chris]

Again, just to be clear, I didn't want to come across as slamming you. You are clearly the victim here and the guy owes you a phone call and an apology at least.

I hope you start feeling better real soon.

A related issue, but slight hijacking is the whole fatherhood and this sport/pastime thing. I have two daughters who are 8 and 5. The older they have gotten and the more involved I have been in their activities, the riskier doing some of these group rides and races has seemed to me. I have raced over half of my life, but now days, flying through some corner at 30+mph with a dozen guys around me is less inviting. Things completely out of your control, like you experienced, can change your life in an instant. Hopefully you will heal and all will be well, but I heard a story this summer about a younger guy who was doing his "last race" (a local crit) before he hung up the racing bike to focus more on his career, young family, etc. The guy goes down in the race and apparently is a quadriplegic now. Makes you think.

[djg21]

Question for you guys...

We recently had an accident during an official club ride.
A rider pulled a bonehead move, which resulted in him knocking another rider off his bike. He fully acknowledged that the crash was his fault. We were riding single file, and the group as a whole was slowing slightly as we approached a set of train tracks. The rider was behind and going too fast, and in the course of trying to slow himself down, he slid his bike, slammed into and knocked the other rider to the ground...

The result to the crashed rider:
- badly broken wrist requiring surgery to put in screw and a plate, and about a week in the hospital waiting for said surgery.
- about 2k in damage to bike.
- pain and suffering, currently on morphine and will likely be in a cast for 2 - 3 months, followed by an estimated 5 - 6 months of physio.
- expenses for things he can no longer do for himself......like shoveling the driveway, etc etc.

Assume that:
- although it was a club ride, there is not much insurance benefit through the club
- the hospital and surgery cost was covered through medicare
- the rider who caused the accident has not once offered any assistance, financially or otherwise. Simply offered an apology.

We know that if it had been a car that hit the rider from the side and caused the above damage, we'd be in court suing the driver. But what do you do if it is another rider, and not a car? Is there an unwritten rule that a biker can cause unlimited damage to another biker and not be responsible for it? Obviously said injured rider is me... I'm getting mixed opinions locally.....some shy away from the question.....others say have a lawyer tap his plpd insurance (through home insurance?), partly because they think I deserve it, and partly because they want people in our club to understand they need to ride safe...

What would you guys do??


If you ride in a group (or for that matter participate in any sport), you assume the risks of harm inherent in that activity. Barring gross negligence, or an intentional assault, you likely would be SOL. Presumably, you have medical insurance. This is precisely why. If you don't have insurance, you are going to learn an expensive lesson.

You should be thankful that your injuries are not permanent, and chalk it up to experience.

Good luck.

[Chad Engle]

I've read most of the thread, may have missed some so I apologize in advance if I repeat some advice.

There is a good chance this person has homeowners insurance. If so, there is probably some liability coverage that may provide him coverage for such an event. Barring any strange exclusionary language for races or sporting events you may be able to recover your out of pocket and then some. I guarantee your health insurance carrier will be exploring all avenues of subrogation and if they determine he was at fault they will try to recover what they have paid on your behalf, they may assist you in recovering your out of pocket as well.

Talk with your carrier, they may do the investigation for you, contact the other carrier and make the claim. This is not "suing" him. Simply making a claim. We all goof up which is why insurance exists.

Good luck and get well soon.

Chad

[thejen12]

Sorry to hear of your misfortune!

I'm in the camp with those who suggested that the "perp" (for want of a better term) is probably too scared to call or visit. However, I would expect your other club members to pressure him to do so. Unless maybe they haven't seen him because he's stopped showing up for rides. If nothing else, maybe he realizes he's not ready for that type of riding and decided to take some time off to work on his skills. Otherwise, your fellow club-members should at least tell the guy something like, "Hey, why don't you go over and rake Oldguy's lawn, since he can't do it with his hand in a cast and his wife is pregnant." The guy is relatively young, maybe his parents didn't raise him right - this is a "teachable moment".

Regarding liability for damages, in my club we all sign a membership form and I'm sure it says something like "I acknowledge that bicycling is a risky activity....", but the club also has insurance which should cover some of the damages.

Jenn

[Lance Armstrong]

screw the helmet....ride the way you want... and no I do not ride Ralpha - for they do not pay me.

[BumbleBeeDave]

screw the helmet....ride the way you want... and no I do not ride Ralpha - for they do not pay me.

. . . or I may have to "out" you! :rolleyes: :p ;) :beer:

BBD

[e-RICHIE]

. . . or I may have to "out" you! :rolleyes: :p ;) :beer:

BBD

that would take some real balls atmo.

[paczki]

. . . or I may have to "out" you! :rolleyes: :p ;) :beer:

BBD

Lance is gay? ... not that there's anything wrong with that. I guess it's always the ones who protesteth their hetero a bit too much!

[Lance Armstrong]

:butt: :butt: :butt:


. . . or I may have to "out" you! :rolleyes: :p ;) :beer:

BBD

[Lance Armstrong]

that would take some real balls atmo.


I have a ball and you and your cross team are COOL!!!!

[e-RICHIE]

I have a ball and you and your cross team are COOL!!!!


so are you...finally, now that you are gonna use sram red.
welcome to the double-tap cabal atmo.

[deanster]

I would think that the rider at fault would at least have enough class to pay for the damage to the bike. As far as the other damage we should have insurance on our bodies.

[oldguy00]

I would think that the rider at fault would at least have enough class to pay for the damage to the bike. .

Me too, but no. :crap:

[OldDog]

Jeez, a bad frame deal and a crash all in a few months. Your taking it on the chin this fall...

Sending much good Karma your way!

[Fixed]

if the cat is a dick make him sweat a little have the lawyer call him it will not cost you anything if the law cat can't collect ..if he is a bro he would offer to help repair or replace your gear
imho

[coylifut]

sorry to hear of your injuries. i'm typing this with a couple pins holding my hand together after crashing in competition. we had a very similar situation recently in our club that left a rider with a broken femur and in a wheel chair for 3 months. the concept of financial help never crossed one of our members lips. i take that as everyone is in agreement that the risk of such accidents are assumed. in our situation, the guy who caused the crash drove the injured rider to rehab 2x a week as well as provided other non financial help.

it's my take that no one owes you any financial compensation, but having the club come together to shovel your driveway is expected.

[Blue Jays]

Karma is going to bite that guy so hard he's not going to know what hit him! Any sane, normally-adjusted, and intelligent person would do everything in his or her power to assist a fellow rider he or she injured via carelessness.
If I caused an accident and didn't make good with the victim, I would never be able to comfortably show my face around the shop again!

Arriving to go on another club ride before clearing my name? Fuhgeddaboudit!

[vqdriver]

that's a tough situation to be in. frustration is the least of it, and in some ways the worst part as well. suing seems kinda over the top in this case, altho i suppose it's viable. but just because you can doesn't mean you should.

if you hadn't been injured, but only ruined a wheel, would you sue him for the cost of the wheel?

you seem like a reasonable guy wanting to let this go. how well do you know him? maybe he could help with some of those outdoor chores this season? that would just be a good will gesture, but i'd bet it'll make you feel a lot better about it. plus it would mitigate some of the collateral effects on your daily life. then at the end of the day, the two of you can share a coke and a smile. tho if you just met him that day, then that might be awkward.

get well buddy.