OT: Return of the BMW bubble car – Isetta with gas or electric drive?

[RPS]

Last week an article in the paper was describing a $17,000 electric city car that could only be driven around city streets with low speed limits because the top speed was not adequate to go 45 MPH; and for that price you don’t even get air conditioning (a deal breaker for many along the gulf coast).

My first thought was that the original BMW Isetta produced half a century ago could do better in many ways – at least it could get up to 45 or 50 MPH, had great fuel economy for its time, and a much better range out of its 3.5 gallon fuel tank. And refueling took a minute, not hours.

The original Isetta was by far the smallest car I’ve ever driven – it felt much like one step above a bike or scooter. I only got to drive it around the block but it was definitely different than driving a real car – a lot of fun nonetheless. In doing a little research to see if they are still available in good working condition, I found that BMW may reintroduce the Isetta brand with a new version of the legendary city bubble car. Original plans call for gas power, followed by all electric. Sketches suggest a smaller and sleeker version of a Smart.

I’m wondering, will we overlook the small size if it achieves the planned 100 MPG? And will that be enough economy to divert sales away from similar-size pure electrics? Personally I’d love one as a second or third car to drive close to home when a bike won’t do the job. I just hope they stay true to the original (except for the 13 HP engine). The 3.5 gallon fuel tank sounds great though.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/225675/the_100mpg_fuel_busters.html

[csm]

have you seen the videos on utube where somebody has stuffed a hyabusia motorcycle engine into a smart car? my idea of an econo-box.

[RPS]

No, and I have to admit I don't know what kind of engine that is. I like the Smart concept, but it seems a little too much in the middle. Too large to be a true urban car or get really high mileage, but too small for longer trips.

BTW, the original BMW Isetta had a motorcycle-based engine -- first of 250 CC and then upgraded to 300 CC, but I'm guessing that's not the kind of power you are talking about. ;)

[Ti Designs]

Having raced autocross for a number of years and helping build ice racing cars, I'm no stranger to small, light cars. Coming from a cycling background I would have to say that there's a whole lot of extra weight that need not be there. OK, if you're going to be cutting off Suburbans maybe you need the extra safety crap they've mandated, but why is the Lotus Elise 470 more in US trim??? When my CRX dies I'm going to need something, and what I see these days is dismal. The Smart car isn't so smart, not exactly stellar economy, nothing there for performance, and Uuuuuuuuugly! I'm thinking of building something more along the lines of the Arial Atom - an exoskeliton car running a supercharged Acura motor. Car makers somehow think a frame should come in at 200 pounds. Bike people laugh at that. I'm thinking frame weight of around 80 pounds with pick-up points for standard suspension members. As for the motor, I'm thinking of a high compression, long stroke motor for the torque and economy. The down side is that higher compression needs higher octane for it's anti-detonation qualities. Resistance to detonation (ignition before TDC) can also be done with atomized water injection (used in high compression forced induction motors).

There are many ways of getting better economy in a car, but people have to give up the idea of taking everything with them. Have you seen the new Escalade Hybrid???

[Tobias]

100 MPG on gasoline will be tough unless they can get the weight below the original. According to wikipedia, the original Isetta was just under 800 pounds. It would be cool if they could do it by using high-tech materials like on bikes -- carbon, titanium, and aluminum. Also, I doubt a large 900 CC engine like in the Fiat Topolino will yield that kind of mileage.

[goonster]

why is the Lotus Elise 470 more in US trim???

Because Colin isn't here to add more lightness. :(

[RPS]

As for the motor, I'm thinking of a high compression, long stroke motor for the torque and economy. The down side is that higher compression needs higher octane for it's anti-detonation qualities. Resistance to detonation (ignition before TDC) can also be done with atomized water injection (used in high compression forced induction motors).I think direct injection can overcome that, and it's doubtful new gas engines won't include DI.

As to simplicity, you are absolutely correct. Comparing standard automobiles versus electric is usually like apples and oranges. Many new cars/SUVs/crossovers have stuff like power doors and tailgates (close and open, not lock), coolers, power folding seats, etc.... while electrics are smaller, light, more aero, and usually don't even have air conditioning. If compared on equal basis, gasoline powered could do quite well IMO. But who would drive a gas car with 36 HP like the old Bettles?

[Gothard]

Smart sells a so called roadster, with a 700cc engine that gets about 40+ mpg, has an AC, aibags and weighs under 800 Kgs.
I'd use one as a DD, my work is 4 miles from my house, but 1000ft below, preventing easy commuting.

I'd buy an Isetta as well, in a heartbeat.

[Tobias]

I think there is a point at which a tiny car is made so small and light that making it even lighter won't make it that much less safe. I'm not sure but it seems it would be like riding a motorcycle and being hit by a Suburban. Whether the motorcycle weighs 200 pounds or 400 pounds must be immaterial. If we apply that mindset to small urban cars and don't require that they meet the same safety standards as full-size autos, then maybe we can have personal transportation choices that rival mass transit for efficiency while allowing greater point-to-point mobility.

If I'm willing to ride a bike in traffic, I'd certainly drive a small car.

[Ti Designs]

I think direct injection can overcome that, and it's doubtful new gas engines won't include DI.

The problem is heat of compression, not when the fuel comes into mixture. All valves closed and a 12:1 ratio is going to need some way around detonation. Mazda used a Miller cycle engine (keeping the intake valves open past BDC) to gain the torque of a longer stroke without the need for higher compression fuel.

[csm]

here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h8KdtuBBLM

[RPS]

The problem is heat of compression, not when the fuel comes into mixture.What if fuel were injected right before TDC? Not saying that it is.....just asking.

Direct injection not only allows gasoline engines to run with higher compression ratios above 11 to 1, but also operate in stratified mode at low to medium loads. I think the newer high-end versions of GM V-6s run high compression (11.4 to 11.8) on regular. And that’s just the start – I expect before long we may have engines that run like diesels -- with very high compression ratios -- but on gasoline.

[RPS]

here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h8KdtuBBLMOK. Not the way to get MPG, or miles per tire.

[csm]

I wouldn't think it would stay upright for long either. seems to me the cog is a bit off on that. tiny wheels too.

[feta99]

I would love one of these for the city in NA:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/newreviews/227853/fiat_500.html

[johnnymossville]

This is the one I wish I could buy here. 65mpg diesel.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e194/xnodesign/fiesta_econetic.jpg

[sg8357]

This is the one I wish I could buy here. 65mpg diesel.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e194/xnodesign/fiesta_econetic.jpg



Ford is bringing some of its European cars here starting in 2010.
Hopefully they don't "Americanize" them like they did to the new
Focus. Ford announced the plan back when gas hit $4, about freaking
time. I have a 2001 Focus, fun to drive, decent reliabilty, not Honda
solid, but pretty good.

[maunahaole]

hayabusa motor is from a 1300cc Suzuki motorcycle. It is probably somewhere in the ballpark of the newest models produce approx 170bhp/100 ft-lb tq. from the factory. More can be had with massage. I cant imagine it would be easy to drive that much power on that short wheelbase.

[csm]

I've ridden a Hyabusia. it is crazy fast. must be sign of getting old when I say "those kids should not be riding anything bigger than a 600cc."
I'd think the novelty of smoking the rear wheels every time you push the go pedal in a smart car would get old after....., about the 5th set of tires.
maybe that version should be called the SMARTALECK car.

[RPS]

maybe that version should be called the SMARTALECK car.That video reminded me that I’ve never seen an electric car smoke its tires. ;)

I hope as we search for viable solutions to reduce our dependency on foreign oil and/or help clean the environment, that we make an honest effort to compare dissimilar vehicles on an equal-capability basis. The Zenn neighborhood electric vehicle (NEV) pictured below is a good example.

It has a “governed” top speed of 25 MPH, can be used on roads up to 35 MPH speed limit, and can go about 35 to 50 miles per charge. No doubt cost of electricity to run it is very low, but I couldn’t get to my neighborhood grocery store in one. All roads to get there have a posted 45 MPH speed limit. The same problem exists to get to the nearest restaurant, hardware store, or mall. On the other hand a modern urban microcar similar in concept to the original Isetta with 70 to 100 MPG economy would use ½ a gallon of fuel (a little more expensive but very low nonetheless) to go the same distance as one charge of the Zenn but could be driven down a city boulevard at 45 MPH. BTW, the Zenn needs about 300 pounds of battery to do the equivalent of 3 pounds of gasoline. :rolleyes:

As a side note, I also found it interesting that the Zenn web page shows that the “average power” used is 2.38 KW, or about 3 horsepower (I assume that’s during their test loop with speed at or below 25 MPH). To compare on an equal capability basis it would have to be against a single-cylinder gas-fueled vehicle, right? The original Isetta with 12 or 13 HP could get up to 50 MPH so it’s safe to assume that with modern aerodynamics and high specific engine output, even a 300 CC engine (20 to 25 HP) would run circles around the Zenn. Again, I hope we don’t end up comparing apples and oranges.

[Vancouverdave]

Maybe if either the Big 3 go down forever, or are restructured under dept. of energy direction--either of these things might take monstrosities like Ford Excretions and Chevy Subdivisions out of production and create a better road environment for microcars, thus creating more of a market for them.

[Tobias]

Maybe if either the Big 3 go down forever, or are restructured under dept. of energy direction--either of these things might take monstrosities like Ford Excretions and Chevy Subdivisions out of production and create a better road environment for microcars, thus creating more of a market for them.I'd love to see large vehicles off the roads as much as the next guy, but hope the US government stays out of deciding which models Detroit manufactures. I'd prefer bankruptcy if that's what it takes.

Americans should be able to buy whatever they can afford within reason (large house, car, or jet), even if the rest of us don't like it. There has to be a better way to control behavior than to mandate or control what is made. I don't want to start down the slippery slope of telling my neighbors how to live or what to buy.

[csm]

maybe we should start a thread on what kind of vehicles our households have.
I'm willing to bet there are more suvs among the Serotta faithful.....

[RPS]

Regardless of what we own, free choice is a very important principle that should be protected, isn’t it?

Besides, if the ultimate goal is to reduce global warming and/or air pollution, is a Ford Excursion that is driven 5,000 miles a year worse than a Civic that is driven 30,000 miles per year? And to make the comparison even tougher, what if the Excursion is driven 5,000 miles/year carrying 8 people and the Civic 30,000 miles/year with just the driver on board?

If we start down that path where does it end? Wouldn’t it be similar to telling Americans they can only travel to Europe once every 5 years and to Asia once every 10 years because it uses too much jet fuel?

[Seramount]

That video reminded me that I’ve never seen an electric car smoke its tires. ;)


There is (was) a tv show on TLC called Electric Garage that featured a guy named Reverend Gadget of Left Coast Electrics. One episode was a resto-conversion of a 1967 Camaro to all-electric power for the lead singer of the Red Hot Chili Peppers.

Car did an admirable job of shredding the tires from a dead stop.

[RPS]

Car did an admirable job of shredding the tires from a dead stop.No doubt with enough money and time just about anything can be done (particularly if they sacrifice range). My point was simply that environmentalist sometimes tend to hype the virtues of electric cars by comparing them with totally dissimilar gas-powered vehicles.

In some ways I think the capabilities of the smaller entry-level electric cars are closer to that of a cyclist than to a traditional car. I’m not sure some of the urban electrics could beat a good cyclist in a 100-mile race -- a couple of stops to recharge and they could lose the race. It would also be interesting to see how a little electric car like the Zenn would do going up Mt. Washington.

[Tobias]

Electric Vehicles: Fantasy or Reality?

A good recap of why we don't have more electric vehicles already.

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/landingpage.aspx?cp-documentid=720175&landing=newcarresearch&topart=newcarresearch&icid=684&GT1=22018