OT: Interesting Article on Solar Power

[93legendti]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1226404803022&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

"I wanted to move from hi-tech to clean-tech and so I looked around for a market. I looked at wind, but there is no potential [in Israel]. I looked at solar and realized it had vast potential," Dinar said.

[saab2000]

I have also read about an Israeli who wants to reinvent the auto world with renewable energy. Very clever. There was an article in Wired magazine a few months ago.

Solar energy could be very powerful. The issue is storing the energy for when it's not sunny.

[93legendti]

It is probably sunny well over 300 days a year in that part of the world, but storage is probably an issue. I thought there were solar cells that could store energy?

[csm]

I heard that we are about 10 yrs away from the next gen solar panels. they will use nanotechnology and not lose efficiency like current technology. and it will offer more flexible applications.

[saab2000]

It is probably sunny well over 300 days a year in that part of the world, but storage is probably an issue. I thought there were solar cells that could store energy?

One solution I have heard would be water tanks. During the day solar power is used to pump water to higher ground. During the night that water flows down, turning a turbine.

There is obviously no perpetual motion machine, though as noted, the sun shines a lot there. And so there is always new energy coming in. So does it shine a lot in the southwestern US, California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, etc.

[93legendti]

I saw Les Stroud installed them on his property in Canada. I wonder if there is a company in Michigan that installs them?

[Z3c]

A lot of folks are not aware of the fact that the Alternative Energy tax incentives were tacked-on to the Bail-Out bill. Great thing is that the federal tax rebate went from a max of $2k now to 30% of what the system costs a homeowner for '09 going forward for 8 years.

For us, in Az, it means that our system that will provide an est. 75-80% of our electrical needs will now cost us less than $9K installed! It adds almost twice that to our house in terms of appraised value. Should offset approx $2000/yr in utility expense. Pretty much a no-brainer both financially and ethically!

Feels good too!

Scott

[Z3c]

Solar cells don't store energy; you need batteries for that. Most utilities/systems now do net metering which means that if you produce more than you need during the day, that you get credit for that against what you use at night. Also, for those areas that also have wind, turbines combined with solar works well as the wind doesn't go away at night.

If anyone here is contemplating this, let me know; we just had our system installed this month.. I am sure someone installs in MI..

Scott

[saab2000]

I always wonder how much wind there is at night. as an aviator I am aware that surface winds generally die down at night. Of course, so does demand for electricity. But winds at altitudes as low as 200 feet AGL (Above Ground Level) can be significantly higher than right at the surface.

Both wind and solar have their obvious drawbacks - calm winds and night time respectively. But they are one of the ways forward to alleviate a bunch of issues. Environmental, political, etc. Hopefully.

If there were an electric car that were charged by solar or wind I'd sign up for it.

[Z3c]

Saab,

Search on wind maps and you will find links to just that at, IIRC, 10m of altitude, for various locations. Ironically, the mid-worst, where I live now, has great wind but moderate solar potential. Tucson has great solar but moderate wind and great riding!

Now I just have to survive one more winter..

[93legendti]

Solar cells don't store energy; you need batteries for that. Most utilities/systems now do net metering which means that if you produce more than you need during the day, that you get credit for that against what you use at night. Also, for those areas that also have wind, turbines combined with solar works well as the wind doesn't go away at night.

If anyone here is conteplating this, let me know; we just had our system installed this month.. I am sure someone installs in MI..

Scott
Scott, can you pm/email me the info please? Thanks.

[RPS]

What happened to solar heating? Not to change the subject away from solar power, but rather to ask why we don’t seem to have more solar water heating and solar space heating when it seems that it should be much easier to apply. Seems like it should be much lower cost, more efficient, and energy storage should be easier. I’m not sure, but isn’t solar heating the lower fruit?

[saab2000]

Solar heating

I walked into my house yesterday in Grand Rapids, MI for the first time in 6 weeks.

When I am gone in the winter (and now is winter in the Midwest for all practical purposes) I set the thermostat at 45 degrees Fahrenheit.

When I walked in it was 46 degrees in the house. And it was in the lower 30s outside. But the 46 means that my furnace had not run for hours.

I have a big window facing south-southwest in my house and it captures a lot of heat in the winter. In the summer too, but I can alleviate that with curtains and a ceiling fan.

Solar heating exists passively if a house is designed properly. In all but the coldest months here in MI I do not need the furnace at all during the day.

And I will set it warm when I am here. And I really only need to run the furnace from Nov. 15 - Feb. 15 during the daylight hours when I am at home. Which isn't much, unfortunately.

[RPS]

Solar heatingDo you live in a stand-alone structure (single house) or apartment/condo?

Both passive and active heating should be easier than power generation, and if we are not doing a better job at those, why bother going after the hard stuff? :confused: Wouldn't our collective efforts do more good if focused on easier projects? I understand that heating needs aren't great in the south where we have a lot of sun, but still, we spend a lot on heating too.

[saab2000]

Condo. But the neighbor lady goes to Florida for the winter and so there is no 'free' heat from the neighbor.

[Karin Kirk]

We have a major, ongoing experiment in passive solar energy gain with our greenhouse. We are resolute not to put a heater in there. Instead we have many plastic buckets, painted black and filled with water. During the day the water gets warm as the greenhouse heats up. At night, the water releases the stored heat back out to the greenhouse.

We had no idea how well this would work, but now we have all the evidence we need. The photo below was taken a few days ago, and moments ago I walked out to the greenhouse and gathered lettuce and cherry tomatoes for tonight's salad.

So, as Saab points out, solar power can be incorporated into everyday life even without space-age solar panels or batteries.

[93legendti]

Solar heating

I walked into my house yesterday in Grand Rapids, MI for the first time in 6 weeks.

When I am gone in the winter (and now is winter in the Midwest for all practical purposes) I set the thermostat at 45 degrees Fahrenheit.

When I walked in it was 46 degrees in the house. And it was in the lower 30s outside. But the 46 means that my furnace had not run for hours.

I have a big window facing south-southwest in my house and it captures a lot of heat in the winter. In the summer too, but I can alleviate that with curtains and a ceiling fan.

Solar heating exists passively if a house is designed properly. In all but the coldest months here in MI I do not need the furnace at all during the day.

And I will set it warm when I am here. And I really only need to run the furnace from Nov. 15 - Feb. 15 during the daylight hours when I am at home. Which isn't much, unfortunately.
FWIW, unless the therostat was calibrated, the 46 degrees reading might not have been accurate. We replaced our thermostat. 72 degrees used to be comfortable and the new one set to 68 degrees feels the same. Our HVAC guy said that no 2 thermostats read the same and all that matters is relative heat and cold. Yours could be right or the temp could be 44-48. But, your point is taken.

[93legendti]

We have a major, ongoing experiment in passive solar energy gain with our greenhouse. We are resolute not to put a heater in there. Instead we have many plastic buckets, painted black and filled with water. During the day the water gets warm as the greenhouse heats up. At night, the water releases the stored heat back out to the greenhouse.

We had no idea how well this would work, but now we have all the evidence we need. The photo below was taken a few days ago, and moments ago I walked out to the greenhouse and gathered lettuce and cherry tomatoes for tonight's salad.

So, as Saab points out, solar power can be incorporated into everyday life even without space-age solar panels or batteries.
You just have to keep the buckets filled with water...how many buckets are there and what size are they?

[RPS]

Condo. But the neighbor lady goes to Florida for the winter and so there is no 'free' heat from the neighbor.That's what I was wondering. Obviously homes that have neighbors on either side, above, and below are more energy efficient anyway.

[Karin Kirk]

You just have to keep the buckets filled with water...how many buckets are there and what size are they?

The buckets have lids, otherwise it wouldn't work because as the water warms up it would evaporate.

I'm not sure how many buckets we're up to. There are 2 large (12 gallon?) containers plus maybe 15 5-gallon buckets. Every week I scrounge up a few more and then Dave spray paints them black.

We've had fun going around the greenhouse with the infrared thermometer testing the difference between black buckets and white ones, and also seeing what the temperature spread is at different times of the day.

At some point down the road we'd love to add solar panels to the house and tie into the grid (to avoid batteries). But for now this is a fun way to benefit from the sun!

[93legendti]

The buckets have lids, otherwise it wouldn't work because as the water warms up it would evaporate.

I'm not sure how many buckets we're up to. There are 2 large (12 gallon?) containers plus maybe 15 5-gallon buckets. Every week I scrounge up a few more and then Dave spray paints them black.

We've had fun going around the greenhouse with the infrared thermometer testing the difference between black buckets and white ones, and also seeing what the temperature spread is at different times of the day.

At some point down the road we'd love to add solar panels to the house and tie into the grid (to avoid batteries). But for now this is a fun way to benefit from the sun!


Ah, lids...makes sense.

[RPS]

Instead we have many plastic buckets, painted black and filled with water.Drums work well too provided you don't need to move them around -- the 55-gallon size get heavy when full. Surface area to heat capacity is less than smaller buckets but they store a lot more heat in an equal floor space.

We had no idea how well this would work, but now we have all the evidence we need.We are far behind many other nations in this area. The solar work at UF over 30 years ago suggested it should be an easy way to cut on fuel use, yet very little has been done. Even in Florida very few homes are heated with solar. I'm honestly surprised we are going after the expensive technologies and bypassing the easier stuff.

[saab2000]

At some point down the road we'd love to add solar panels to the house and tie into the grid (to avoid batteries).

Get a windmill and you may be able to avoid the grid altogether (except to add to it!) and become energy independent.

BTW, I went past the local ski 'hill' today. It opened today with the snow machines going like mad. It was -1C (30F-31F). I didn't go but hope to soon.

How's the snow look like in Montana?

[Karin Kirk]

Drums work well too provided you don't need to move them around -- the 55-gallon size get heavy when full. Surface area to heat capacity is less than smaller buckets but they store a lot more heat in an equal floor space.

We are far behind many other nations in this area. The solar work at UF over 30 years ago suggested it should be an easy way to cut on fuel use, yet very little has been done. Even in Florida very few homes are heated with solar. I'm honestly surprised we are going after the expensive technologies and bypassing the easier stuff.

We thought about drums but they seemed too bulky. We can stack buckets and fill odd-shaped spaces with them. Floor space is at a premium. Plus, the buckets are free and easy to move.

I agree that solar heating is the natural use for sunshine. Good question about why that's not the more obvious route. Even in places that don't use much heat, solar hot water would also be a good target.

But I don't know a whole lot about it and I couldn't say with any confidence that these aspects are or are not being developed more than solar-electric systems.

[Karin Kirk]

Get a windmill and you may be able to avoid the grid altogether (except to add to it!) and become energy independent.

BTW, I went past the local ski 'hill' today. It opened today with the snow machines going like mad. It was -1C (30F-31F). I didn't go but hope to soon.

How's the snow look like in Montana?

Yeah, the windmill would be the ticket here! Someday, maybe...

We've got a couple inches on the ground and a foot or more up high. Hopefully we'll start to see some storms roll through.

Bridger does not rely on snowmaking, so sometimes they open late compared to other areas. Once the season is underway, snowmaking is irrelevant, happily! I think Big Sky will open next week. I will get out on snow in early December. I'll keep you posted once we get rolling.

[johnnymossville]

My dad did the 55 gallon drum thing back home in our greenhouse when I was a kid, it absolutely worked, not to mention, the greenhouse was our favorite place to hang out during the day in the winter. Nice and warm in there. He even ran a small fan to help push some of the heat into the main part of the house from there.

[southernsoul]

We need it!

[RPS]

We thought about drums but they seemed too bulky. We can stack buckets and fill odd-shaped spaces with them. Floor space is at a premium. Plus, the buckets are free and easy to move.

I agree that solar heating is the natural use for sunshine. Good question about why that's not the more obvious route. Even in places that don't use much heat, solar hot water would also be a good target.

But I don't know a whole lot about it and I couldn't say with any confidence that these aspects are or are not being developed more than solar-electric systems.Yes, free is a very good price. If you ever want any and have food plants in your area, you might want to check with them to see if they receive ingredients in food-grade plastic drums, and if so, whether they recycle them or not. Common sizes are 15, 30 and 55 gallons – and come in either open or closed top. The smaller ones may be something you can use some day. There are places that sell them used, but they are expensive.

BTW, the solar research lab/house at UF many years ago even used solar heating for cooling. The absorption air conditioning system was run off solar panels. One advantage of air conditioning with solar is that the need is greatest when the sun is most plentiful; and also that much heat (relatively speaking) doesn’t have to be stored since AC loads at night are much lower.

[slugbottle]

One to watch: Wind Energy Corp. No huge bird-killing blades, wind at 4mph+ instead of 12mph+. Designed with third world countries in mind where they can repair with local fabric instead of high zoot carbon materials.

http://windenergycorp.com/

[Z3c]

All,

FWIW, I am loving this thread as I have become very passionate about solar.. The daily solar potential is greater than the worlds daily need; ponder that for a moment as it has tremendous ramifications. I also used to work in the HVAC industry so I have some understanding of that realm.

Saab-you are spot on about solar and south facing windows. If you can put an overhang of some sort you will achieve what you are after as in the summer the sun is more above your home and will not shine in as much as it does in the winter when it is to the south.. Still allows the light in though.

Karin-you are creating and utilizing what is called thermal mass. You might want to experiment with sand instead of water in your buckets, I think it might retain more heat.

Ironically, during Desert Shield, I was stuck out in the desert for months and we painted the water holding tanks on our showers black so the water wouldn't be freezing during the winter. A few months later we were strapping our canteens to the front of our vehicle so it would cool when we drove.. The temp swings are amazing.

As to solar hot water heating, it is actually fairly common in some places. I have rented a house in Kona that only had solar hot water; never would have known.. Lots of people do it for pools. Very economical as the panels are cheap. Very effective because even if the water is heated 20-30 degrees, which is not hard to do in most places, it really reduces the work load on your hot water heater. Essentially just a flat radiator contained within a "panel" that has a connection on each end; water flows through it and absorbs heat and flows out to whatever you want..

One of the big barriers is Home Owner Associations due to the perceived negative visual issue. In Arizona it is illegal for them to deny solar panels. Here in KC, where I currently live, it is a real issue though.

Be green!

[Viper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jEnTSQStGE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcrwu6WGoMs&feature=related

Astronauts in space say they can find Israel on the globe as it's light up like Broadway, New York.

Especially with Thanksgiving approaching, we can only hope those with so much, share with those in and around the Broadway in the sand. There are some, with nothing in/around that middle eastern oasis. Wind power and solar power in that region has been around for quite some time:


http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=75345&sectionid=351020202

http://www.turkmenistannews.net/story/433138

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/opinion/?id=28792


http://www.desertec.org/downloads/proposal_gaza.pdf

http://sgp.undp.org/download/SGP_OccupiedPalestinianTerritories1.pdf

[Birddog]

A couple thoughts on this.
1) Number one mistake made in "passive solar" builds is over glazing. Less is more in almost all cases. Reason 1 more heat is lost through glazing in off hours than is gained in sunlight. 2 temps are near a trade off, but comfort levels (temp swings) are too severe IOW too hot in mid day, too cold at night.

2) For thermal storage, look into "eutectic" salts. They are a phase change material and may substantially increase your efficiency. One method is to fill your cans with fiberglass insulation and then add the salts (liquid). Metal containers are more efficient than plastic for simple water storage as they have better heat transfer properties. They would not be so good with eutectics because of corrosion. I understand the concept of free.

Birddog

[Richard]

Another technology to consider -- Geothermal. Reduce the load first, then power it.

[93legendti]

Here's 2 intersting articles on electric vehicles:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/opinion/27friedman.html

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215331079709&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

[Karin Kirk]

My dad did the 55 gallon drum thing back home in our greenhouse when I was a kid, it absolutely worked, not to mention, the greenhouse was our favorite place to hang out during the day in the winter. Nice and warm in there. He even ran a small fan to help push some of the heat into the main part of the house from there.

Agreed, the environment in the greenhouse is wonderfully pleasant and we love to hang out in there too. I think it makes great sense to have the greenhouse connected to the house so that you can exchange heat back and forth. If we ever designed a house from scratch that's how we'd do it.

For thermal mass, it turns out that water is three times better than sand, according to a greenhouse reference.
(http://www.greenhousegarden.com/Material%20properties.htm)

Eutectic material sounds interesting, I'll have to read up on that.

I would like to track down some of those large food-grade barrels. I found a place where you can buy them for use as rain barrels, which we plan to get next spring. But if I could score them for free that would be sweet.

I'm excited to see what developments emerge from all sorts of solar, wind and geothermal applications. There is so much energy flowing around that is nearly free for the taking, and finally we are approaching a place where it makes economic and political sense to head in that direction. Of course there are engineering challenges, but we seem to be good at solving those sorts of problems.

[93legendti]

http://www.off-grid.net/2006/11/21/les-stroud-interview/

Les Stroud on wind and solar.

[Z3c]

Karin,

All very cool to say the least. Interesting about sand v. water; I was guessing there and clearly guessed wrong. Certainly I am just begining this journey!

You might check around your state/city; my sister lives in Va. and they give away rain barrels in her area.

Please keep us posted on the cool things you are doing..

Scott

[Karin Kirk]

You might check around your state/city; my sister lives in Va. and they give away rain barrels in her area.

Please keep us posted on the cool things you are doing..

Scott

Good idea about getting a tax break or something on the rain barrels.

The next thing I am doing is to head out to the greenhouse where it is 75 degrees (28 outside) to plant some fresh seedlings of lettuces and spinach. I'm also going to put in some daffodil bulbs as an experiment. It is all an experiment since this is our first year with it.

BTW, much of this was inspired by Michael Pollan's recent books. I've always been an avid gardener, but his books pushed me to put that hobby to a more constructive use. I love the idea of a modern-day victory garden, which I think is entirely appropriate for these times.

[RPS]

Of course there are engineering challenges, but we seem to be good at solving those sorts of problems.Reading the paper this morning I ran across two somewhat related articles that reminded me of this thread because “the devil is in the details” when it comes to things not working well or as intended.

The first was about neighbors in CA arguing with each other regarding one guy’s trees casting “shade” over the neighbor’s property where it may affect their solar panels. Apparently there is an obscure Solar Shade Control Act that is getting more use now. In the example both neighbors wanted to help the environment but went about it in different ways that conflicted with each other. It seems one guy wanted trees to reduce CO2, and the other solar panels to produce electricity.

The other situation was the government spending billions to encourage production and use of alternate-fuel vehicles, so they bought a bunch (112,000) of them at a high cost. Now it turns out over 92 percent of the fuel used is standard gasoline instead of alternates because the vehicles are located too far from fuel supplies. :rolleyes:

[RPS]

The next thing I am doing is to head out to the greenhouse where it is 75 degrees (28 outside) to plant some fresh seedlings of lettuces and spinach.Have you thought about setting up your trainers in the greenhouse and letting all the CO2 you and Dave breath out cause mini global warming? And it'll make the plants grow faster too. ;)

[Z3c]

Thanks Karin, you may have just helped me with my Christmas shopping. My wife is an avid gardener and blossoming green nut. I will have to look into that author!

Maybe Dave can work towards green welding!!

[Karin Kirk]

Have you thought about setting up your trainers in the greenhouse and letting all the CO2 you and Dave breath out cause mini global warming? And it'll make the plants grow faster too. ;)

I have thought about that, but it would get way too hot in there in short order. For example, I was just in there digging a big trench to plant bulbs. Even with this easy activity I got so hot that every few minutes I had to come outside and cool off. I came inside just now to chill out all the way. A funny problem to have! :)

[Karin Kirk]

Reading the paper this morning I ran across two somewhat related articles that reminded me of this thread because “the devil is in the details” when it comes to things not working well or as intended.

The first was about neighbors in CA arguing with each other regarding one guy’s trees casting “shade” over the neighbor’s property where it may affect their solar panels. Apparently there is an obscure Solar Shade Control Act that is getting more use now. In the example both neighbors wanted to help the environment but went about it in different ways that conflicted with each other. It seems one guy wanted trees to reduce CO2, and the other solar panels to produce electricity.

The other situation was the government spending billions to encourage production and use of alternate-fuel vehicles, so they bought a bunch (112,000) of them at a high cost. Now it turns out over 92 percent of the fuel used is standard gasoline instead of alternates because the vehicles are located too far from fuel supplies. :rolleyes:


These are great examples of the adolescent stage we're in now with alternative energy use. We are running into all sorts of problems, but for the most part they do seem solvable. My sense is that once we put a whole lot of effort/money/attention into these issues, things will advance at a quicker pace than they have been up until this point.

Battery technology seems to be one of the tougher nuts to crack, and I'm not sure how much or how quickly that will progress. Seems to be one of the weaker links at the moment.

Scott: Omnivore's Dilemma has been my favorite book so far. It's not really about gardening, it's about where our food comes from. It is really enlightening but also kind of shocking (in a good way, I think). But the bottom line from that book is that the ultimate food is that which you grow yourself. Botany of Desire is Pollan's previous book and is an interesting look at the co-adaptations of plants and humans.

For other excellent green/gardening books look at Rodale Publishing. Their organic gardening books are the staples of my library. If you want specific suggestions, PM me.

OK, on to spinach! :banana:

[RPS]

I have thought about that, but it would get way too hot in there in short order.Of course I was just kidding about the effect of added CO2 concentration due to riding on greenhouse temperature. A rider's body heat during exercise would probably make more of a difference; and that's pretty small. Still, it must be a nice place to hang out in winter.

[93legendti]

Even MORE interesting:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1226404785593&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

"...Jatropha is a long-overlooked plant that has recently begun receiving loads of attention. The seeds of the leafy green tree are rich in oil that can be used to make biodiesel, a "green" fuel which offers several benefits over other alternative fuels that are currently popular.

It's a perennial plant that can start producing oil in its second year of growth, and will continue to be productive for more than 30 years. It's so tough that it can survive up to three years of consecutive drought, and so versatile that its byproducts can be used to make soap, mulch, herbal medicines and more..."

[Viper]

Even MORE interesting:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1226404785593&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

"...Jatropha is a long-overlooked plant that has recently begun receiving loads of attention. The seeds of the leafy green tree are rich in oil that can be used to make biodiesel, a "green" fuel which offers several benefits over other alternative fuels that are currently popular.

It's a perennial plant that can start producing oil in its second year of growth, and will continue to be productive for more than 30 years. It's so tough that it can survive up to three years of consecutive drought, and so versatile that its byproducts can be used to make soap, mulch, herbal medicines and more..."

How great and fantastic, wonderful! We hope they invent power and share it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jNLMXje2Ow&feature=related

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1200572496382

[Karin Kirk]

Of course I was just kidding about the effect of added CO2 concentration due to riding on greenhouse temperature. A rider's body heat during exercise would probably make more of a difference; and that's pretty small. Still, it must be a nice place to hang out in winter.

You're not too far off with the CO2. It wouldn't raise the temperature but plants do grow faster in enriched CO2 - some greenhouses pipe it in.

I spent most of the day sweating (enjoyably) in there, before going out for a very chilly ride. Nice contrast!

93Legend - I love hearing about plants like that. These are exciting times!

[93legendti]

You're not too far off with the CO2. It wouldn't raise the temperature but plants do grow faster in enriched CO2 - some greenhouses pipe it in.

I spent most of the day sweating (enjoyably) in there, before going out for a very chilly ride. Nice contrast!

93Legend - I love hearing about plants like that. These are exciting times!
Amazing, right? It seems so simple. Maybe ANOTHER country has to bring it to USA, so as to avoid the lobbyists and little 3 influence?

Here's something sorta interesting...maybe a little wierd- solar and graves:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081123/ap_on_re_eu/eu_spain_solar_cemetery

[Birddog]

A large amount of the info seen in this thread and elsewhere re. Solar is just a rehash of what was "new" in the late 70's and 80's. Passive Solar is just that, and not much has changed. I threw out my sizable collection of "Solar Age" magazines about 10 years ago unfortunately.

The windpower scene is also pretty much the same, except now it's viable to produce power on commercial "wind farms". Much of the early technology was derived from the ginormous windmill that Boeing built in Clayton NM for the DOE back then. It was large enough to provide power to the whole community of about 2,200. Small scale generators for domestic use are still pretty pricey and they need battery storage. They are really only suitable for people way off the grid and celebrities like Ed Begley Jr. who will "go green" at any price.

Recently, there was a thread about LEED certified buildings. It sounds good doesn't it. Well, there was a municipality in the NW (Tacoma I think) that built a new civic bldg to LEED specs and lo and behold it cost almost 50% more to heat and cool the new bldg. How could that be? Who'd a thunk it?
I wish I could find the trade journal that ran that story, but I'm afraid I threw it out.

Birddog

[Dekonick]

Geothermal has widespread application - to a lesser extent. If houses were heated with ground temperature liquid circulated under floors, then back to a heatsink (ground or ground water ie well) then you only need to pay to pump the water around. At that point it is much cheaper to then heat the difference (ground temp being somewhere around 60, and a comfy house at ~70) than heat from outside temp to comfy.

Karin is right - a good mix will help. Solar, wind, geothermal, nucular, and fossil. Hopefully less fossil...

As far as water as a heatsink, it makes sense. A liquid will heat more evenly than a solid because of convection, and release heat in a similar fashion. Also - the specific heat of water is pretty darn high compared to alot of other cheap choices.

Good stuff! Keep it coming!

[Tobias]

As far as water as a heatsink, it makes sense. A liquid will heat more evenly than a solid because of convection, and release heat in a similar fashion. Also - the specific heat of water is pretty darn high compared to alot of other cheap choices.We shouldn't assume that it's always better for the heat sink to heat up and cool down faster. ;)

[Tobias]

The second biggest problem I see with solar at the individual home level is that most home owners don’t want to be bothered or have the capacity to operate, service, maintain, etc…. additional equipment in their homes. Most people IMO just want to throw a switch and have the lights come on.

The biggest problem remains costs. And passing it along to other taxpayers isn’t a long-term solution.