Gm Returning Two Jets Come On!!!!!

[alancw3]

so read this headline.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081121/bs_nm/us_gm



are we all that dumb that gm thinks that this will get them their money? i for one would never buy another gm product.

let's see:

corvair
vega
olds diesel
pickup truck gas tank mounting
fiero (sp?) (two seat rear engine)
electric car

and to think that these executives are making all the money to make such poor decisions. shame on them!!!!!!

[Ahneida Ride]

The Vega ..... Oh yea ... the Vega ....

How could I forget ???? ...

Another brilliant work of GM craftmanship !!!!

I'd LOVE to buy American. I'll even pay the premium ...
but a Vega ? and let's not forget the Ford equivalent ... the Pinto ..

and these executives can't figure out why they are bankrupt?

Hey I purchased an AMERICAN built Serotta ! :beer:

Think Ben would ever produce the bicycle equivalent of a Rambler?

[Karin Kirk]

Think Ben would ever produce the bicycle equivalent of a Rambler?
It would be the perfect bike to bring to the Finger Lakes.

:)

[39cross]

From the link above:

"Wagoner and Ford CEO Alan Mulally are required by their companies to fly by private aircraft for security reasons, according to company documents filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission."

No, that's not a line from the Colbert show.

[dancinkozmo]

This is the reason GM is on the brink...everyone still judges them on products produced 30 years ago...

[rex]

Your going too far back in time, don't forget about the Pontiac Aztec!

[bzbvh5]

From the link above:

"Wagoner and Ford CEO Alan Mulally are required by their companies to fly by private aircraft for security reasons, according to company documents filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission."

No, that's not a line from the Colbert show.

They also can't hail a taxi from the street. Them and their families must take a pre arranged car. This keeps hostage situations from occuring.

True that getting rid of a few planes won't solve anthing, taking a plane to a meeting didn't score any points either. Just goes to show that you can't make everyone happy.

[cmg]

I thought the Verio was a rebadged Suzuki Aero, is this not the case?

[Volant]

Actually the Vega was a precursor to today's tuner-cars. Drop a 327 in there (you have to route the headers through the fender walls); install stiffer springs, bolted to a Hurst 4-speed with a Dana rear-end and smoke-off any tires you put on there. My brother and I had a blast torquing that car apart!

[shiftyfixedgear]

The real behind the scenes fiscal ugliness is how none of the big three auto makers (or most large American companies for that matter) have fully or even near-fully funded PENSION plans for their employees. I doubt the top executives are worried, but the American public will someday inevitably have another MASSIVE widespread bailout crisis when those bills start coming due and many companies decide to close their doors in order to shift the burden elsewhere.

We will be paying off war, endless military-industrial budget excesses, and the ticking timebombs of Social Security, Medicare, and the Pension scheme debacle for a long painful time.

Aren't there better choices and options available then
these ?

[RPS]

This is the reason GM is on the brink...everyone still judges them on products produced 30 years ago...+1
Maybe the culture is the same, but to go after the individual CEOs as if they had anything to do with what happened in these companies or which cars they produced 30 years ago is crazy. Most of these guys were very young at the time and some were not even in the industry.

Besides, the Vega and Pinto were GM's and Ford's "quick" response to an oil shortage. In retrospect I'd guess they learned that it's better not to rush a car into production no matter what. So if we are not getting the "green" options we want like electric cars, maybe that's why. ;)

[Ozz]

Actually the Vega was a precursor to today's tuner-cars. Drop a 327 in there (you have to route the headers through the fender walls); install stiffer springs, bolted to a Hurst 4-speed with a Dana rear-end and smoke-off any tires you put on there. My brother and I had a blast torquing that car apart!
ha!

A friend of mine did that in high-school! You're right too, the torque from the engine bent the unibody (frame).

[Ahneida Ride]

This is the reason GM is on the brink...everyone still judges them on products produced 30 years ago...



Once bitten, twice shy. ;)


a Rambler .... :eek:

http://www.amcrc.com/junk/60rambler.JPG

[csm]

great. by giving back the leased planes we'll see the charter jet boys in town next asking for money.

[rePhil]

But I had one of those Ramblers. Paid $350 for it. 45k on it's 6 cylinder with 3 on the tree. At the time we were poor. I was working as a mechanic and it fit our needs nicely, ie the price was right. It started and ran well till the day I sold it a year later for more than I paid.
Moved "up" to a 67 MGB talk about unreliable...

[rwsaunders]

Let's not forget this engineering masterpiece from across le ponde.

[nm87710]

Very, very common for top executives not to mention top Govmint officials. Hmmm, last time I checked the US Govmint was running a bit in the red too yet nobody complains about Dubbya's use of the private co. jet...


From the link above:

"Wagoner and Ford CEO Alan Mulally are required by their companies to fly by private aircraft for security reasons, according to company documents filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission."

No, that's not a line from the Colbert show.

[johnnymossville]

Very, very common for top executives not to mention top Govmint officials. Hmmm, last time I checked the US Govmint was running a bit in the red too yet nobody complains about Dubbya's use of the private co. jet...

Maybe the next guy will do us all a favor and stay home, saving jet fuel and many other things. :p

[Bud_E]

Back in high school I drove a '62 (or '63? ) Corvair that I bought for $100 . It used almost as much oil as gas but it was a blast to drive around in. Fishtailing was a problem when the road got wet. Regular gas was around 30 cents a gallon at the time.

[alancw3]

Your going too far back in time, don't forget about the Pontiac Aztec!

oh yeah! that had to be the ugilest car ever built. remember the puke green color!

[saab2000]

I am almost never an apologist for executive excess, but the use of private jets is not always excess. They are by far more time efficient than using airlines and a properly managed corporate flight dept. is likely not much less efficient or expensive than using airlines.

Maybe I defend it because I work in aviation. I don't know. But I do know lots of folks who fly corporate jets and rarely do they report to me that they perceive it as wasteful use of corporate $$$.

What I am an apologist for is unions. And even I recognize that the UAW will also have to play ball here if the US automakers are going to survive. They must change in order to get the costs in line and yes, it will be painful.

[39cross]

It doesn't bother me that they fly in their own company owned planes; heck, these men are the princes of economic fiefdoms whose annual output is probably greater than that of many countries.

I do find it an irony that their contracts require them to fly in these planes; it's a bubble; but to be honest, I wouldn't complain if they were flying me.

We have to hope that the automakers will get past these troubles and build great cars again, but it's going to take a revolution in Detroit to make that happen. It's too bad that the boards of directors for these corporations can't replace management with new people who can revitalize the industry. Well, actually Ford did bring in the CEO of Boeing, and they seem to be in the best position at the moment.

[alancw3]

the sad thing is (imho) with the corvair, vega, fiero and olds diesel, after they (gm) finally got these cars right they discontinued them. the mentality being that the damage was done. i really believe that honda and toyota would not have abondoned these cars after straightening out the problems (would not have brought them to market w/o adequate r &d) and that is where the problem lies with gm. short term profits for that all so important bonus or stock options. gm=first to market with problematic cars for the sake of a quick buck now the hummer purchase, that was a shear stroke of genius for the powers to be at gm but hey we will all pay for they incompinance..

[93legendti]

Ford, Chrysler and GM's contributions after 9/11

'CNN Headline News did a short news listing regarding Ford and GM's contributions to the relief and recovery efforts in New York and Washington.

The findings are as follows.....

1. Ford- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions of the same number plus 10 Excursions to NY Fire Dept. The company also offered ER response team services and office space to displaced government employees.

2. GM- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions of the same number and a fleet of vans, suv's and trucks.

3. Daimler Chrysler- $10 million to support of the children and victims of the Sept. 11 attack.

4. Harley Davidson motorcycles- $1 million and 30 new motorcycles to the New York Police Dept.

5. Volkswagen-Employees and management created a Sept 11 Foundation, funded initial with $2 million, for the assistance of the children and victims of the WTC.

6. Hyundai- $300,000 to the American Red Cross.

7. Audi-Nothing.

8. BMW-Nothing.

9. Daewoo- Nothing.

10. Fiat-Nothing.

11. Honda- Nothing despite boasting of second best sales month ever in August 2001

12. Isuzu- Nothing.

13. Mitsubishi-Nothing.

14. Nissan-Nothing.

15. Porsche-Nothing. Press release with condolences via the Porsche website.

16. Subaru- Nothing.

17. Suzuki- Nothing.

18. Toyota-Nothing despite claims of high sales in July and August 2001.

[saab2000]

Interesting stuff.

[Elefantino]

"Wagoner and Ford CEO Alan Mulally are required by their companies to fly by private aircraft for security reasons.
Probably to keep shareholders who are flying coach from running up to first class and beating the crap out of them.

And ...

I have to confess. My first car was a Pinto.

[rePhil]

When I worked for a Fortune 500, there was some sort of corporate policy that limited the quantity of execs on a single private flight. They were not allowed to have all division presidents and ceo on the same plane.




I am almost never an apologist for executive excess, but the use of private jets is not always excess. They are by far more time efficient than using airlines and a properly managed corporate flight dept. is likely not much less efficient or expensive than using airlines.

Maybe I defend it because I work in aviation. I don't know. But I do know lots of folks who fly corporate jets and rarely do they report to me that they perceive it as wasteful use of corporate $$$.

What I am an apologist for is unions. And even I recognize that the UAW will also have to play ball here if the US automakers are going to survive. They must change in order to get the costs in line and yes, it will be painful.

[gemship]

Ford, Chrysler and GM's contributions after 9/11

'CNN Headline News did a short news listing regarding Ford and GM's contributions to the relief and recovery efforts in New York and Washington.

The findings are as follows.....

1. Ford- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions of the same number plus 10 Excursions to NY Fire Dept. The company also offered ER response team services and office space to displaced government employees.

2. GM- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions of the same number and a fleet of vans, suv's and trucks.

3. Daimler Chrysler- $10 million to support of the children and victims of the Sept. 11 attack.

4. Harley Davidson motorcycles- $1 million and 30 new motorcycles to the New York Police Dept.

5. Volkswagen-Employees and management created a Sept 11 Foundation, funded initial with $2 million, for the assistance of the children and victims of the WTC.

6. Hyundai- $300,000 to the American Red Cross.

7. Audi-Nothing.

8. BMW-Nothing.

9. Daewoo- Nothing.

10. Fiat-Nothing.

11. Honda- Nothing despite boasting of second best sales month ever in August 2001

12. Isuzu- Nothing.

13. Mitsubishi-Nothing.

14. Nissan-Nothing.

15. Porsche-Nothing. Press release with condolences via the Porsche website.

16. Subaru- Nothing.

17. Suzuki- Nothing.

18. Toyota-Nothing despite claims of high sales in July and August 2001.


upon that thought 10 million dollar donations for what the big three are now asking for seems like chump change

[avalonracing]

This is the reason GM is on the brink...everyone still judges them on products produced 30 years ago...

That IS a shame considering most of those cars fell apart about 28 years ago.

[saab2000]

When I worked for a Fortune 500, there was some sort of corporate policy that limited the quantity of execs on a single private flight. They were not allowed to have all division presidents and ceo on the same plane.

When I lived in Switzerland an Alitalia plane crashed in ZRH with most of the leadership of one local company from Hinwil on board. It was a regular airline but the point is that all were dead. No company leadership afterwards. Chaos.

It sounds arrogant to think that they should fly seperately, but it actually makes sense.

After all, it is rare that you see the president of the US and the VP appear together. If the worst should happen there is a crisis of leadership and in a worst case scenario some opportunist who tries to take advantage.

One of the major strengths of the US (and I am no US apologist at all!) is the fact that even in a disputed election like 2000 there was no violence, no bloodshed, no coup d'etat by a wannabee, etc. It is something Americans should be proud of. No tanks rolling down Main St. Thats a good thing.

Nobody recognizes this, but it's huge IMHO.

But it is also a reason why leaders of majors corporations don't travel together. And GM, Ford and Chrysler are big companies and lots of folks depend upon them.

I would have loved it had they driven to Washington in their cars, but flying in private jets is OK too.

Still, if Rick Wagoner and his cronies were to have driven, or better yet carpooled to DC, I bet they would have drawn some empathy votes!

[avalonracing]

Ford, Chrysler and GM's contributions after 9/11

'CNN Headline News did a short news listing regarding Ford and GM's contributions to the relief and recovery efforts in New York and Washington.

The findings are as follows.....

1. Ford- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions of the same number plus 10 Excursions to NY Fire Dept. The company also offered ER response team services and office space to displaced government employees.

2. GM- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions of the same number and a fleet of vans, suv's and trucks.

3. Daimler Chrysler- $10 million to support of the children and victims of the Sept. 11 attack.

4. Harley Davidson motorcycles- $1 million and 30 new motorcycles to the New York Police Dept.

5. Volkswagen-Employees and management created a Sept 11 Foundation, funded initial with $2 million, for the assistance of the children and victims of the WTC.

6. Hyundai- $300,000 to the American Red Cross.



Wow, what I great bunch of guys!
Also, the same bunch of guys who argued that raising CAFE mileage standards a couple of miles a gallon (for the first time in decades) was going to destroy the american workforce. And the same bunch of guys who pushed SUVs as safer (as long as you aren't in a smaller car). And the same bunch of guys who deny fossil fuels contribute to global warming (which they argue isn't happening anyway).
Let's give them all the money that they want.

[jeo99]

:beer: Ford, Chrysler and GM's contributions after 9/11

'CNN Headline News did a short news listing regarding Ford and GM's contributions to the relief and recovery efforts in New York and Washington.

The findings are as follows.....

1. Ford- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions of the same number plus 10 Excursions to NY Fire Dept. The company also offered ER response team services and office space to displaced government employees.

2. GM- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions of the same number and a fleet of vans, suv's and trucks.

3. Daimler Chrysler- $10 million to support of the children and victims of the Sept. 11 attack.

4. Harley Davidson motorcycles- $1 million and 30 new motorcycles to the New York Police Dept.

5. Volkswagen-Employees and management created a Sept 11 Foundation, funded initial with $2 million, for the assistance of the children and victims of the WTC.

6. Hyundai- $300,000 to the American Red Cross.

7. Audi-Nothing.

8. BMW-Nothing.

9. Daewoo- Nothing.

10. Fiat-Nothing.

11. Honda- Nothing despite boasting of second best sales month ever in August 2001

12. Isuzu- Nothing.

13. Mitsubishi-Nothing.

14. Nissan-Nothing.

15. Porsche-Nothing. Press release with condolences via the Porsche website.

16. Subaru- Nothing.

17. Suzuki- Nothing.

18. Toyota-Nothing despite claims of high sales in July and August 2001.

[SIZE=6]We could also include the Katrina disaster to this list! And many, many more. I for one respect this ideology and buy American regardless!
cheers

[ergott]

This is the reason GM is on the brink...everyone still judges them on products produced 30 years ago...


No. The average consumer walks into showrooms and compares their offerings to those of Honda, Toyota and other imports. They see their current products as inferior. Go shopping for a mid sized sedan, test ride it and tell me that there is an American car that is better than the Accord.

They also lost their bread and butter, full sized, pick-up truck market share to other alternatives. As soon as the imports took the pick-up truck market seriously, they started pulling from their market share.

The big three lost because they though that making an inferior car, but offering them cheaper and with incentives was good enough. People would rather have a Hyundai that is in the same price range and is a better car that lasts longer.

[39cross]

Still, if Rick Wagoner and his cronies were to have driven, or better yet carpooled to DC, I bet they would have drawn some empathy votes!You know, that would have been a beautiful publicity stunt, resonating at many levels.

And that list of donations which inspires such ire at those churlish foreign car makers - it's appears to be a hoax. Geez, do a Google on it and it's just another urban legend.

According to http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/a/autodonations.htm

Summary of eRumor:
This message says that although U.S. car manufacturers have donated generously to the victims of the Attack on America, the foreign car makers have not. Some versions of the message say the originator surfed the internet and checked out each company’s website to assemble the list. The eRumor closes with the suggestion that if you’re going to buy a car, buy American.

The Truth:
The donation picture could change as time goes by so these figures should not be taken as the final accounting, but they do clearly demonstrate that foreign car makers are helping the victims of 9/11.

FORD Motor Company
$1 million to the Red Cross. A pledge to match employee donations. $550,000 from the Ford Facilities and Dealer groups. $1 million from the UAW’s Ford National Programs unit.

General Motors
$1 million to the Red Cross. Sixty vehicles donated to relief effort. A pledge to match all employee donations.

Daimler Chrysler
$10 million to support the children of victims of the attacks. Additional fund raising among employees.

Harley Davidson
$1 million donation. Thirty new motorcycles for the New York police.

Volkswagen
$2 million to create a foundation for giving to relief activities. Twenty-five vans given to the New York Fire department.

Hyundai
$300,000 in donations.

Audi
$100,000 to New York firefighters.

BMW
$1 million to the American Red Cross. One-hundred motorcycles to NYPD and 10 SUVs.

Daewoo
Owned by General Motors, so a part of GM's activities.

Fiat
Partners with GM and does not sell cars in the U.S.

Honda
Nearly $1 million to the American Red Cross. An employee donation program. Eight ATV’s to NYPD. Twenty electrical generators to the Red Cross.

Isuzu
Employee and company donation program in both the U.S. and Japan.

Nissan
$1 million split between the Red Cross and the Twin Towers fund. Also matching employee donations.

Porsche
Devoting portions of funds collected from several fund-raising projects.

Subaru
$532,000 to the American Red Cross.

Suzuki
Matching employee donations. Has given 25 all-terrain vehicles and five SUVs.has donated 25 all-terrain vehicles and five four-wheel-drive SUVs,

Toyota
$1 million to the American Red Cross. Matching employee contributions. More than $800,000 from American affiliates.

[soulspinner]

No. The average consumer walks into showrooms and compares their offerings to those of Honda, Toyota and other imports. They see their current products as inferior. Go shopping for a mid sized sedan, test ride it and tell me that there is an American car that is better than the Accord.

They also lost their bread and butter, full sized, pick-up truck market share to other alternatives. As soon as the imports took the pick-up truck market seriously, they started pulling from their market share.

The big three lost because they though that making an inferior car, but offering them cheaper and with incentives was good enough. People would rather have a Hyundai that is in the same price range and is a better car that lasts longer.


Yes! :beer:

[rex]

No. The average consumer walks into showrooms and compares their offerings to those of Honda, Toyota and other imports. They see their current products as inferior. Go shopping for a mid sized sedan, test ride it and tell me that there is an American car that is better than the Accord.

They also lost their bread and butter, full sized, pick-up truck market share to other alternatives. As soon as the imports took the pick-up truck market seriously, they started pulling from their market share.

The big three lost because they though that making an inferior car, but offering them cheaper and with incentives was good enough. People would rather have a Hyundai that is in the same price range and is a better car that lasts longer.

I bought a new car last winter and did compare the Fusion to the Accord and the Camry and found that, although it was made in Mexico and shared its chassis with the Mazda 6, it was a real competitor. I agree that your statement was true up until about three or four years ago but I think that Ford has made real strides latley, the new generation of Mustang, again made with some Mazda parts and is a modified Volvo chassis, is arguably the best car in its class. I do go out of my way to "buy American" and will pay more for American products if they are equal to or better than their foreign counterparts. Wesco boots, Craftsman tools, Defeet socks, Thomson seatposts, Chris King headsets, Serotta bikes are all good examples. That said I still cannot believe that Pontiac made the Aztec until 2005! I guess my point is that you really do need to do the leg work and test drive foreign and domestic cars and then make your own decision. What's up with those upside down door handles on the new Accord anyway? They are really ugly.

[93legendti]

...Also, the same bunch of guys who argued that raising CAFE mileage standards a couple of miles a gallon (for the first time in decades) was going to destroy the american workforce...

It did.

[acorn_user]

Don't you think that those bosses might be pretty busy right now? Would you rather have them saving time so they can get on with solving their problems, or sitting in a carpool or airport queue so they can stay on the right side of the press?

[dancinkozmo]

No. The average consumer walks into showrooms and compares their offerings to those of Honda, Toyota and other imports. They see their current products as inferior.

If i put a Toyota badge on a new Chevy Malibu those same average consumers would rave about what a great car it is and how superior it is to domestic products. Its all about image...Japanese cars and imports in general are percieved as being higher quality, for a long time they were, but in recent years the number of recalls for Toyota and Honda has risen while the numbers for GM have dropped. There was a J.D. Power survey out recently for initial build quality (# of problems reported by customers in first 3 months of ownership)...Lexus finished first..no suprise there, but Buick was second.

[saab2000]

If i put a Toyota badge on a new Chevy Malibu those same average consumers would rave about what a great car it is and how superior it is to domestic products. Its all about image...Japanese cars and imports in general are percieved as being higher quality, for a long time they were, but in recent years the number of recalls for Toyota and Honda has risen while the numbers for GM have dropped. There was a J.D. Power survey out recently for initial build quality (# of problems reported by customers in first 3 months of ownership)...Lexus finished first..no suprise there, but Buick was second.

This is correct. It is also trendier among certain groups to drive a Honda or Toyota. American brands are perceived as stodgy by many folks.

I'd drive a Malibu or Cadillac CTS. The current CTS is actually pretty hot.

[SoCalSteve]

I bought a new car last winter and did compare the Fusion to the Accord and the Camry and found that, although it was made in Mexico and shared its chassis with the Mazda 6, it was a real competitor. I agree that your statement was true up until about three or four years ago but I think that Ford has made real strides latley, the new generation of Mustang, again made with some Mazda parts and is a modified Volvo chassis, is arguably the best car in its class. I do go out of my way to "buy American" and will pay more for American products if they are equal to or better than their foreign counterparts. Wesco boots, Craftsman tools, Defeet socks, Thomson seatposts, Chris King headsets, Serotta bikes are all good examples. That said I still cannot believe that Pontiac made the Aztec until 2005! I guess my point is that you really do need to do the leg work and test drive foreign and domestic cars and then make your own decision. What's up with those upside down door handles on the new Accord anyway? They are really ugly.

In the movie business, we get "promo" picture vehicles from many of the major car makers. They give us free cars and we give them free press by putting the cars on camera...

On the show I am doing now, Ford gave us a 2008 Edge to use. I must say, it is the biggest piece of doggy $hit to ever be assembled! Its is literally falling apart at the seams...and the material that Ford uses appears to be super, super cheap. Oh, it has less than 10,000 miles on it.

On the other hand, my wife has a 2002 Honda CRV SUV that she drives daily. It has almost 75,000 miles and it is still going strong. No sign of falling apart whatsoever, its truly impressive....Plus, she paid less than $20,000.00 for it new and done nothing but change the oil, tires and brakes.

I can so see why the Big 3 are in the trouble they are in. Its their own fault...But, I would hate to see what would happen to our economy if they all folded... Quite the dilema...Should they be rewarded for producing an inferior product?

Just askin'

Steve

[rePhil]

My wife has had two Mustangs in the last 4 years. She traded the first because she had always wanted a convertable. They have been the most troublefree cars she / we have ever owned.
I have had a Ford Ranger since '02. I have only put 20k on it but it's never gave me a bit of trouble.

[MMM]

Not sure how much I want to write about this as most of these arguments fall on deaf ears once someone has made up their mind regarding domestic versus "import" -- not unlike trying to convert a republican or democrat. I work for GM Powertrain, so I do have my biases, but there are segments in which we are highly competitive, and the midsize sedan is one of those.

Go shopping for a mid sized sedan, test ride it and tell me that there is an American car that is better than the Accord.

From the US News and World Report site, which claims to compile 63 reviews and their test drives states the 2008 Chevrolet Malibu ranks #1 out of 23 Affordable Midsize Cars.
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/2008-Chevrolet-Malibu/

Snip from that site:
Chevrolet Malibu - What the Auto Press Says
The 2008 Chevrolet Malibu ranks 1 out of 23 Affordable Midsize Cars. This ranking is based on our analysis of 63 published reviews and test drives of the Chevrolet Malibu, and our analysis of reliability and safety data.

Auto writers are pleased with the 2008 Chevrolet Malibu's driving dynamics, good looks and comfortable ride. Many say the car has joined the perennial class-leaders like the Honda Accord.

According to our analysis, the redesigned 2008 Chevrolet Malibu is an affordable midsize sedan that competes at the top of its class, even with the respected Toyota Camry and Honda Accord. In fact, following a comparison test between the Malibu and the current-generation Camry, AutoWeek "came away impressed at how well the Malibu held its line and stayed planted over bumpy paved corners versus the Japanese competitor." As a whole, the auto industry recognizes the Malibu's overall worthiness compared to the class' leaders by bestowing it with various awards. Car and Driver picked it as one of its 10Best for 2008, and the Malibu was also selected as the North American Car of the Year during the North American International Auto Show in January 2008. In February, the Malibu was named Kiplinger magazine's "Best in Class" winner for sedans costing between $20,000 and $25,000. Automobile Magazine lists the 2008 Malibu as one of the 2008 Automobile All-Stars for both its good looks and good moves. According to the magazine, "Substance, not appearance, is what makes the Malibu an All-Star."

Matt

[rex]

In the movie business, we get "promo" picture vehicles from many of the major car makers. They give us free cars and we give them free press by putting the cars on camera...

On the show I am doing now, Ford gave us a 2008 Edge to use. I must say, it is the biggest piece of doggy $hit to ever be assembled! Its is literally falling apart at the seams...and the material that Ford uses appears to be super, super cheap. Oh, it has less than 10,000 miles on it.



A friend of mine who was a PGA caddy once said that only difference between a promo car and a 4 wheel drive is that a promo car will go ANYWHERE!

[RPS]

It goes beyond who makes the best cars.

Public perception plays a major part when buying because it affects the trade-in or residual value of all vehicles. Whether American vehicles are better or not, unless the public acts as if they are, the depreciation rate will be faster. That can make the total cost of ownership higher.

That’s why most major corporations should protect their “image” as if there is no tomorrow. The damage a car like the Aztec can do to a brand is hard to reverse IMO.

[dancinkozmo]

I work for GM Powertrain, [/COLOR]

Matt

I heard BMW uses GM automatic transmissions in their vehicles...true or false ?

[SoCalSteve]

A friend of mine who was a PGA caddy once said that only difference between a promo car and a 4 wheel drive is that a promo car will go ANYWHERE!

I should qualify the "promo car" with...These cars are specifically bought and used on TV-Movie-Commercial and Video's...They are not used by the public, only on movie shoots. They are then given back to Ford-GM-Chrysler-whoever and then sold at car dealerships, usually after 1 year of use. They have very little mileage on them and are treated very well (sometimes even flatbeaded to location shoots).

These are NOT vehicles that get beat up. This Ford Edge was a MESS! And, for no good reason.

Thats all I was trying to say.

Steve

[avalonracing]

I had a 1991 Acura Integra LS. I paid $13,728 for it.

Over the next 9 years I drove it 181,000 miles. As I got it at 22 years old, the day I broke the 600 mile break-in I ran the car to the 6,500 rpm redline. The car was driven very hard and saw 5000-6500 rpm on every drive as a daily driver for the next 9 years.

I changed the oil every 3500-7000 miles
I did the major service at 30K and 60K.
I did a timing belt and water pump at 80K

I COMPLETELY SKIPPED the the 90K, the 120K the 150K and the 180K service intervals.

I did not wash the the car (which was always stored outside) in 1997. When I cleaned it the paint was still shiny and undamaged.

I sold the car at 181K miles and it was still peppy as hell and tight as a drum and didn't have a single rattle (I cannot deal with rattles) or piece of loose interior trim. I saw the car on the road twice over the next two years (there aren't many green Integras with USCF and NORBA decals on the rear bumper in Baltimore).

Despite skipping all those major services and running it to redline with 180,000 miles on the car I had ONE unscheduled repair that cost me $92 at the shop. Really... ONE EFFING REPAIR for a car that was TORTURED.

I do not think there has EVER been a domestic car that could take this kind of abuse.

[nm87710]

IMO, the Big3 CEO's are just putting on a "bailout" show to appease current shareholders and unions. In reality they probably all want to go CH11 to clean up their business model and dump the untenable expenses dragging them down (union contracts, pensions, retiree benefits, RE leases on shuttered plants, etc). Messing with anything else is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

FYI, Honda, Toyota, etc. would likely be in the same boat as the Big3 if they were saddled with an extra $2k in employee/retiree expenses per vehicle...

[MMM]

I heard BMW uses GM automatic transmissions in their vehicles...true or false ?

True, at least in the past, not sure about the present - from open sources. They have used our automatic transmissions in the 3 and 5 series. I would assume they are still using the 6L50. Not sure, since they use their own controls, software, and calibration and I am outside the hardware side of the business. The hardware and development of these advanced engines, transmissions, and other parts is getting so expensive it is necessary to use tie-ups across companies to meet the regulatory and driveability requirements out there at a reasonable cost. If GM makes a good automatic transmission, why shouldn't BMW purchase it. They can use their other expertises/strengths where they feel appropriate, and shop out those areas they feel comfortable with. Suppliers are providing more parts and assemblies than ever, while the auto companies are responsible for integrating those into a vehicle that meets/exceeds the customer's expectations. Even Porsche has shopped out their final assembly to an outside company (Valmet Automotive for the Boxster - in Finland no less).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_4L30-E_transmission

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_6L50_transmission

[dancinkozmo]

[QUOTE=MMM] If GM makes a good automatic transmission, why shouldn't BMW purchase it. /QUOTE]

No reason not to....I think this just supports the argument that GM products are underrated wrt quality by most consumers...

[rwsaunders]

Honda, Toyota and Subaru run "open shop" environments, as opposed to a union shop, in their US manufacturing facilities. Most of these facilities have only really been around since the late 70's and early 80's. This certainly helps the bottom line, in terms of legacy employee benefits, work rules/conditions and retirement plans.

[1centaur]

IMO, the Big3 CEO's are just putting on a "bailout" show to appease current shareholders and unions. In reality they probably all want to go CH11 to clean up their business model and dump the untenable expenses dragging them down (union contracts, pensions, retiree benefits, RE leases on shuttered plants, etc). Messing with anything else is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

While intellectually they probably like the idea of Chapter 11 allowing them to shed union costs and work rules, pension costs (to taxpayers), health care costs, retiree costs, and probably 20 more burdens I don't know about, the emotional truth is different. They will lose their jobs in Chapter 11, and they will be the captains that finally went down with the ship (with that private jet twaddle featured in every history book to be written). If they can use bailout/bridge financing money to stretch out the cost shedding that must occur eventually, they can tack several years on their employment (potentially) and may even have a path to getting the organization where they know it should be. Not one of those guys is dumb - they are playing bad hands and they know it. They also believe that a ton of jobs will be lost quickly in Chapter 11. As they sit at that desk in Washington being juggled like political balls, they think they are doing the rational thing all the way around. They don't know what kind of black hole bankruptcy would be, but their analysts have told them lots of bad things that could happen. They know that the average joe on the street has absolutely no clue what could happen when they send their representatives the message that bankruptcy is the right choice. The politicians don't have much more of a clue, but need a story to sell their voters so they can keep the union jobs and thus their union support. Intellectual purity is fine for talking heads, but it's not the way this thing will play out.

[flickwet]

Bought my 5th Isuzu trooper in 2004 It is an LS with 99,000 miles on it clean as a whistle, She now has 223,000 miles 1qt of oil every 3,000 miles, EVERYTHING still works, As a wetland consultant I do A LOT of 4 wheeling, the greatest car ever made, also can put 4 kids in the back seat in a pinch, Bikes ride on the spare tire which is on the door that swings out of the way, Oh, I paid $5,700.00, for 124,000 trouble free miles. GM killed the trooper and I'll never forgive them for it.

[ergott]

I'm no hater. As it stands now, I'd consider the Malibu if I were purchasing again today (along with the Accord). If it can compare favorably and do well with reliability then great. I sat in one and was impressed. I rented a Fusion and while it was a fleet car, I was really disappointed. I'm not drinking any Kool-Aid when it comes to cars. If it's good I'm more than happy to check it out. The new Ford Fiesta coming out soon promises to be great (European version). I read Consumer Reports reviews and ratings. They are the most open minded publication I can think of and are not afraid to go against the tide of car mags. Their reliability ratings are from actual customers and I've taken their survey many times.

Even on equal footing, imports in the big classes like sedans are also holding their resale value much more than their domestic counterparts. My Civic will be worth more than any domestic car like a Focus should I sell it anytime soon. The Focus was a good rival to my car at the time (2003).

I sure would love to have out home boys succeed. It's in our economy's best interest to do so. I grew up on Buicks so I have much love for them when they are good cars. It's just that as a whole, the imports (particularly Toyota and Honda) are the best in class in many classes for a good reason.

[Tonger]

I heard BMW uses GM automatic transmissions in their vehicles...true or false ?


I have a 1999 e39 5 series wagon that uses the GM 5L40-E transmission. It was replaced at 51k miles and unfortunately that's quite common (bimmer.org). The remainder of the car has exceeded expectations.

I would love to buy American but I guess I'll have to settle for assembled in the USA like in my Honda van (Alabama). That's a car that's cheap, reliable, well engineered, and a great value. As a consumer, I can account for every dollar in the price of the Honda from a content point of view - try saying that with a straight face in Detroit. The Big 3 are a huge competitive disadvantage with their legacy costs and expensive labor. I think that their best shot is to get bought out by a foreign company (like Mercedes did with Chrysler until they realized how much it hurt) or just go through bankruptcy and shed costs through reorganization. It's going to take a lot more than marketing or a government bailout to fix things. Their noncompetitive labor costs aren't going anywhere. More and more foreign companies will pay fair wages in right to work states (e.g. the South) and continue to increase market share. IMO the bailout is just putting off the inevitable - it took one full generation to wean my family from domestic cars and it'll probably take at least that long for us to ever consider coming back...

Tonger

[link]

In reality they probably all want to go CH11 to clean up... Messing with anything else is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.


+1

[nm87710]

They will lose their jobs in Chapter 11

Not likely. That's like firing Dubbya for 9-11. Plus those CEO's don't care since the core(credit market meltdown)problems weren't of their making(ok, somewhat via GMAC).

With market caps of 3.4 and 1.8B for F and GM respectively(Chrysler mkt value is lower) LT shareholders of these Cos have already written off the investments. Cos are valued at less than asset value so anybody buying in now is hoping for turnaround or more likely asset sale. Even at 1.8B plus a premium nobody will buy GM outright due to the legacy costs. That says it all. I work in the VC world and if the Big3 realligned cost structures via CH11 to be on par with the rest of the industry there is plenty of investment jack available - especially at new economy prices. If they forego CH11 and get Fed money then the Govmint will likely be their primary investor for a long time. 25B ain't even the tip of the Big3 funding iceberg.

Just my 2 pesos...

[1centaur]

You are right on the economics but not the reality of Chapter 11. Most CEOs get booted in Chapter 11 so the creditors can bring in their own guy, regardless if the CEO is good at his job or not. On the specifics, Nardelli's not even a car guy and has a bad rep from Home Depot - creditors would boot him. Wagoner is an average car guy whose claim to fame was helping Pontiac sell more. That's a brand that would probably disappear. He's a symbol of the past, for many. The guy at Ford seems really good - he'd have a shot, even though he's not a car guy, but his biggest claim to fame is rationalizing the labor situation at Boeing. Is that the skill you want post Chapter 11 when the labor situation has already been rationalized? Again, a car guy to bring out the best new models would be a likely pick.