toe overlap - a big deal?

[jpw]

So I'm very close to signing-off on a Legend. The proposed frame design results in toe overlap of the front wheel. Not had this on a bike before and I'm wondering if it will be a big deal when riding. I assume it means coasting through corners is advised, but is there anything of concern with such a bike I need to think over before finally signing my OK to go ahead and have it built?

Thanks!

[sc53]

Toe overlap not a big deal to me; every bike I've ever had has had it, and you don't have to coast through corners, necessarily. You will get a feel for it and know when to hold off on the pedal stroke. I ride a pretty standard 50 cm frame and toe overlap is inevitable I think. Then try to put fenders or wear big fat MTB shoes on a frame this size! Big time overlap but never a disaster.

[Ray]

Some folks think it is, some folks think its not. I think its not. I've had all sort of bikes with toe overlap, even a fixed gear. The only time I've ever even noticed it was during extremely low-speed maneuvers on a fixie, when I couldn't unconsciously get my foot out of the way. At those speeds it doesn't matter. At higher speeds, if you turn your wheel far enough to hit your foot, you have MUCH bigger imminent problems than any associated with your foot hitting the wheel.

If the bike fits right and feels right and rides right, it would be the last thing I'd ever think about.

-Ray

[Dave]

Toe overlap will be will be noticeable when turning very slowly, like a U-turn or when starting off from a dead stop - don't get your toe on the inside of the tire while you're stopped.

Any other time you're turning at normal riding speeds, you will be countersteering, with the wheel turned such a small amount that toe overlap is not relevant.

All of my current frames have some overlap, but it's so small that it's never an issue. I wasn't fond of a Cervelo R3 that had a front-center that was nearly 2cm shorter than most 51cm frames. That much overlap had to be paid some attention.

[BURCH]

My Serotta has overlap and I never notice it while on a ride. The only time I notice is when I am going extremely slow and try to do a really sharp U turn. Then my toe sometimes rubs the tire. Not really an issue.

I have cornered sharp turns at 25mph while pedaling and the overlap is not a consideration

[soulspinner]

Got 2 bikes with overlap. Only bothers me if Im track standing for too long and catch the tire.

[Peter B]

I have 10 bikes and every one has some amount of toe overlap. Two are fixed gears. It's a complete non issue to me and I never think about it.

[runtimmyc]

take into account that most often then not, you will be couter-steering to turn. Toe overlap is only a problem when you are doing slow speed (or no speed) turns, like in cyclocross. Ironically, cyclocross bikes usually have a lot of overlap... I can't tell you why. There must be a reason...

[53-11]

what does serotta say the overlap will be? less that 1 cm?

[bfarver]

Toe overlap is no big deal. All my bikes have it and its never impeded handling in any situation. If you tried to build a frame with out it you'd either end up with a longer top tube and have to compensate with a shorter stem, or less head tube angle which would compromise handling.

[chuckred]

Standing around with your foot clipped in - perhaps.

If everything else is right, I'd spend zero time worrying about it.

[Blue Jays]

Don't sweat it even for a moment.
At anything above pedestrian-pace it won't even be noticed.

[Pete Serotta]

No big deal for me......nor most of the folks I know.

So I'm very close to signing-off on a Legend. The proposed frame design results in toe overlap of the front wheel. Not had this on a bike before and I'm wondering if it will be a big deal when riding. I assume it means coasting through corners is advised, but is there anything of concern with such a bike I need to think over before finally signing my OK to go ahead and have it built?

Thanks!

[palincss]

Toe overlap not a big deal to me; every bike I've ever had has had it, and you don't have to coast through corners, necessarily. You will get a feel for it and know when to hold off on the pedal stroke. I ride a pretty standard 50 cm frame and toe overlap is inevitable I think. Then try to put fenders or wear big fat MTB shoes on a frame this size! Big time overlap but never a disaster.

TCO is common with a small frame (such as 50cm) and a big wheel (622), but it isn't inevitable or even common with a smaller 26" wheel such as 650B, 650C or 559.

[eddief]

he knew the answer and he was steadfast. i miss him.

[Viper]

Standing around with your foot clipped in - perhaps.

If everything else is right, I'd spend zero time worrying about it.

So true. The only time it's an issue is when doing 1mph in a parking lot or trying to do a u-turn on a street doing hill repeats. You fall once, learn and then it never happens again. And the one time it does happen, you do a one-handed push-up so fast that nobody realizes you fell cause you're so friggin embarrassed it happened. Not that I would know. :rolleyes:

[Joellogicman]

If you are going to U lock your bike (I would certainly understand if you refuse to leave the Legend unattended) bikes with plenty of room between frame and front wheel make things difficult.

The recommended narrow U locks can often be hard to fit around the frame and through the front tire on longer bikes. You either have to get a super wide U lock which are easier to break, or bring a chain and U lock. Something of a pain.

[RPS]

For me it's only important when riding a tandem -- singles not much of a problem. The longer wheelbase increases the chance of touching the wheel on sharp turns. The consequences of going down are also greater and it's harder to balance at very slow speeds if your stoker isn't experienced.

[dannyg1]

I can't stand to ride my bikes that have toe overlap as daily rides (especially when I'm loaded up for commuting) because I get my foot caught when I'm just starting off and looking behind me for the inevitable, errant car that's barreling down upon me.

It might just be a city thing but my vote is no and emphatically at that.

[ALB]

You may want to read this from Dave Moulton: Toe Overlap: No Problem (http://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com/blog/2006/11/5/toe-overlap-no-problem.html)

Excerpt:

When a framebuilder designs and builds a racing frame, his main criteria are to: (1.) Place the rider in a position where he can pedal with maximum efficiency, and (2.) Design the frame so the finished bike will handle at speed in the best way possible. If the result of the design is toe overlap then the builder can do little because to achieve toe clearance other aspects of the frame’s design would have to be altered.

...

Toe overlap is not a problem because riding and cornering at normal speed the front wheel never turns far enough for the toe to hit the front wheel.

[Oirad]

Not a problem, JPW. I've got serious toe overlap on two bikes a 52 cm squared road bike and on my fixed too. Like most things cycling, it takes a little getting used to in few circumstances, namely slow tight turns. The Dave Moulton piece is excellent. Thanks for the link.

[giordana93]

not a problem generally, but 2 caveats:
1. assuming this will not be a bike for lots of traffic, in-city type riding where you might be stopping, track-standing, u-turns, etc. otherwise, it can be a pain, or at least annoying
2. don't forget that crank length and cleat placement can exacerbate or attenuate the problem, so if you want to use long cranks or the mid-arch cleat placement, it will be more of an issue

[deechee]

I had a custom CIII built for me with 700c wheels and it has toe overlap. Never really had a problem with it.

Then I got a 650c wheeled Cervelo. I realized how much I love non toe-overlap. Yes, it doesn't affect your riding at all, except for low speed manoeuvres. Its nice not having that occasional wobbly traffic stop when you smack your big toe. But more than that, I love doing races with 180 turn arounds. With the 650's and non-toe overlap I'm super quick around 'em.

One of these days I'll get a custom 650c for my gf...

[Grant McLean]

Toe overlap is a red herring issue.

The real question is the wheelbase too short? Bicycles ride better,
(in mine, and many opinions like Ugo DeRosa, Ernesto Colnago, and Richard Sachs to name a few)
when their front center is greater than, say 58 cm's.

In the world of various fork rakes, you can easily add 1 to 1.5cm's to the
front of your wheelbase by adding more fork rake, and a little less head angle.
This combination keeps the handling from being messed up, and yields a
more comfortable and stable bike. You could also add 1cm of top tube,
and subtract 1 cm of stem. The best solution balances all the factors,
creating a harmony. But a good fitter/designer should know that.

-g