How about some clincher talk?

[dirtdigger88]

I know everyone thinks clinchers suck- I also know this thread will spireal out of control and next thing I know we will be talking about the quality of luggs on my Legend ;) BUT- for those who use clinchers or have tried them. What does anyone think of Vittoria's Open corsa CX model? I am using the Rubianos now- but I am looking for something with a higher thread count and a bit nicer ride. Any ideas?

Jason

[Ken Robb]

I liked them best of all the "high performance" clinchers I tired. Since I am not fast no matter what tires I ride I am very happy with Conti Ultragatorskins which are very flat resisitant and ride well to boot. $33 retail.

[RichMc]

Whad'ya mean clinchers suck? I rode tubulars for too long and won't even use them for the occassional race now. Too fragile and too much work for not enough advantage. You should be happy with the Open Corsa EVO CX. Hey, the Rubino Pro is not such a bad tire either. Right now I'm using the Michelin Pro Race and it's just fine also.

[dirtdigger88]

The clincher sucks comment is based off of the last weeks worth of threads. I spoke to Mike at Big Shark about tubulars for ME. He said (and I believe he is correct) that for ME and the conditions that I ride in tubulars are just too much work. I am just looking for the best riding and gripping clincher out there. I have had no real problems with the Rubino either. I did not like the Rubino Techs- too much a "trainer" tire for me. I also had the tread come off of the casing in under 500 miles. :crap:

Jason

[dbrk]

It's not that clinchers suck, it's that tubes suck worse. They are not what they used to be even if they never were in the first place. Some tubes are better than others merely by virtue of sucking less.

I like the "soft" clinchers like Veloflex Pave, Gommitalias, and the really soft Vredesteins. Michelin Pro Race and the best Contis (yes, the sidewalls are better now...inasmuch as they suck less) are not as soft but last longer (sounds like an Enzyte commercial...). The price you pay for a cushy ride is not much longevity, at which point you might as well use sew-ups. My solution is to ride the best tires I can afford because, well, life's not that long anyway and you can get a great ride for less than a hundred bucks a pair, now that's better than an Enzyte commercial...Or something like that.

dbrk

[Too Tall]

DirtyDiggerdoneright, if you are in this for the long game than I'd encourage you to stick with one or two "nice" clinchers and buy enough that you can age them a year or more to increase treadlife and reduce cuts. Your Open Corsa is one heck of a great clincher and I do have direct experience with them. Very very good cornering and superb ride. You'd also love Veloflex Pave.

Get a few of your pals together and order a boatload of tires from someone who will do a "deal-e-o". Put a bunch away and enjoy.

World Class Tires sells lots of 10 tires for great prices.

Clinchers are kewl. ITS ALL KOOL BABY.

[Marco]

Too Tall:

Can you explain the aging thing with tires that have been in several of your recent posts? Is this like aging fine wine? Anything I need to know about how to age and why to do it?

[Too Tall]

As a young(er) lad was taught to do this by the longbeards and they never told me wrong. Tubulars and clinchers both benefit from aging. Storing them in a cool, dark and dry location will give the tread compound time to harden up some. PLEASE don't ask me for details 'cause I am not a materials scientist. What I do know is this: I've done it both ways and I always get better service from aged tires. This will not reduce their performance...not so's I've noticed.

We store spares in an interior closet and use plastic zip lock bags or tupperware containers.

The hardest part is getting over an initial outpouring of dinero.

[musgravecycles]

I have a bit of experience (I have gone through 4 sets) with the Vittoria Open Corsa EVO CX tire, they are great tires and you can’t go wrong with them. They are the smoothest rolling clincher that I’ve ever used. Any of the high thread-count tires are good though. Veloflex, Vittoria, and I’ve heard good things about the Continental Attack/Force combo. Right now I am using the Clement Paris-Roubaix which is another 290 thread-count handmade tire (24mm wide), wonderful tire! When it comes to tires get the absolute best that you can’t afford, you’ll notice the difference, they’re worth it! There is no doubt that a good set of tubulars is better than clinchers, but the appreciable difference becomes less and less as you put more weight on them. I was taught when learning to build frames that anyone over 170-175 has a much harder time noticing a difference between the two, while a person under that mark will notice a difference, and someone well under that mark will notice a bigger difference. But back to the topic the Open Corsa EVO CX is a great tire that you can’t go wrong using.

[Climb01742]

i also find the ride of the open corsa's really nice. while it's always hard to isolate specific elements of what contributes to a smooth ride -- frame, wheels, tires, what you had for lunch -- from frame to frame, the open corsa's seem to give a consistently sweet ride and very good puncture resistance.

[Ozz]

I remember reading about this...way back in 80's.

I you are correct that the thought was that the old tire compounds needed time to "harden" to get the best wear out of them.

I have no idea is this is still true with modern tires....

jobst brandt offers the theory that this is bunk: http://yarchive.net/bike/tire_aging.html

[Sandy]

I used the Open Corsa CX tire. They gave a very nice supple ride, with perceived low rolling resistance, and handled quite well. The tire life was not too good, as the tire has little depth. It wears quicker than some tires. As tire wear is not of primary importance to me, the tires were easily my favorite, except for one glaring weakness- They seemed to cut and flat too easily. It should be noted that I was using 140-145 psi, at the time.

I gave up on the Open Corsa CX tire. Presently I use the Open Corsa EVO KX tire.

The Open Corsa CX tire has been replaced by the Open Corsa EVO CX tire. It weighs 230 grams.

There is the Open Corsa EVO KS tire, which is the Open Corsa EVO CX tire except that it is a slick tire. It also weighs 230 grams.

The Open Corsa EVO KX tire is similar to the above two tires, but it has a significantly thicker center section and an aggressive side tread pattern. It weighs 245 grams. I chose it because of the additional center section rubber.

I inflate my KX tire to about 120 front and 125 rear, and am slowly decreasing the psi in each. I really like the KX tire, as it seems to have all the attributes of the Open Corsa CX, but without the major cut and flat issues.

The EVO KX, KS, and CX tires are suppose to be about 30 percent more durable than the older Open Corsa CX tire, per my conversation with the distributor of the tires. The newer tires have Kevlar particles to decrease punctures.

I also just started to ride a pair of Veloflex Pave tires (700X22, versus the 700X23 of the Vittoria tires). I am using 116 f, and 121 rear. I really like these tires a lot. They feel very fast, and give a great supple and soft ride. They are made in an old Vittoria plant in Italy, whereas the Vittoria are now made in Thailand. The Veloflex tires look very similar to the older Vittoria Open Corsa CX tires. They seem to exude quality. I do not think they will be as durable or as flat resistant as the Open Corsa EVO KX tires. Time will tell.

I hope that I have been of some help.

Tired of tire talk,


PSI Sandy

[Spinner]

all the recent postings about tubulars was beginning to tempt me into a set-up other than my traditional clinchers, mostly michelin but favoring continental most recently. i can't say that i've had a bad tire for over 20 years.

ignorance is bliss about tubulars for me because i think the contis currently mounted on my open pro wheelsets perform great.

thanks to the clincher fans who have reported above. now i can spend my bike budget on other stuff.

[Climb01742]

Super Specific Salient Sandy!!! Superb!!!

[dirtdigger88]

thank you all- Looks like I will pick up a set and try them out.

Jason :)

[Lost Weekend]

Glad to hear clinchers are cool caus thats what I use. Conti 4seasons and grand prix. The roads here are horrible bad.. I keep em pumped up to 120 psi
and never have any problems. Course I probably just jinxed myself ;)

[Ken Lehner]

As a young(er) lad was taught to do this by the longbeards and they never told me wrong. Tubulars and clinchers both benefit from aging. Storing them in a cool, dark and dry location will give the tread compound time to harden up some. PLEASE don't ask me for details 'cause I am not a materials scientist. What I do know is this: I've done it both ways and I always get better service from aged tires. This will not reduce their performance...not so's I've noticed.

We store spares in an interior closet and use plastic zip lock bags or tupperware containers.

The hardest part is getting over an initial outpouring of dinero.

I think this can be filed under "myth and lore".

From the rec.bicycle FAQ:

> What advantage is there in aging tubulars?

"None! The aging concept arose from the same source as the "steel
frames need to be replaced because they get soft with age" concept.
Both were intended to improve sales during the off (winter) season by
bike shops with too much inventory on their shelves. Tires oxidize,
outgas, and polymerize from ultraviolet light. The concept of a tire
manufacturer making a tire that cannot be used until ripened for six
months from the date of purchase is ridiculous. Tires can be made to
any specification at the factory. Tires are most flexible and durable
when they are new. They don't improve with time and exposure to heat,
light, and oxygen or ozone.

"Over-aged" tubular tires, have crumbling hard brown latex on their
sidewalls that exposes separating cords directly to weather and wear
and they have treads crack when flexed. Considering that this is a
continuous process, it is hard to explain where, in the time from
manufacture to the crumbly condition, the optimum age lies. The claim
that tires are lighter after aging is true. Their elastomers have
evaporated making the tire brittle and weak.

Purchasing tubular tires in advance to age them is unwise, although if
there is a supply problem, tubular tires bought in advance should be
sealed tightly in airtight bags and kept in the dark, optimally in a
freezer. For best results, use new tires because aged tires are only
as good as how little they have aged."

More good information here: http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/index.html

[Too Tall]

Jobst shoots from the hip no two ways about that. Like I said I'm not a materials scientist...curiously neither is Jobst. My tires are purchased in lots that generally last a year maybe more but certainly not THAT long!!!

Sorry, no science to back it up bub just OJT.

[gasman]

I would have to say it makes sense to use newer tires rather than "aged tires". I know for autos Consumer Reports recomends that you don't buy old auto tires. Auto tires have the production date printed on the sidewall, maybe bike tires should also.

[hooverone]

I know this is a clincher thread but regarding tubulars I have heard that you should always stretch your tubulars on an unused set of rims before you actaully attach them to the wheel you are going to use with glue......

Does anyone else do this?

Does it make sense?

Jim

[Fuzzybird]

I agree with Sandy based on my experiances. The EVO CX's are more durable than the old open corsas, but I still only got about 700 miles on my back tire before I had to change it last weekend. After the hurricanes, I experianced some flats with all the stuff on the road. The EVO CX's still cut and puncture but I don't think it was all the tires fault. I was running light tubes so I switched to the Specialized Thorn Resistant tubes and haven't had a problem since. The Specialized tubes are heavier but I rather have that than constant flats. I have also tried the Veloflex Pave's (22mm), they ride just as good as the Vittoria's EVO CX's but I found them even less puncture resistant that the Vittoria's, they flated on my first ride on them.

I think I'm going to take Sandy's advice and try the EVO KX's next and see if I can get some more miles out of them.

Greg

[bulliedawg]

but I still only got about 700 miles on my back tire before I had to change it last weekend.

700 miles? That's absurd. For me that would mean a new tire every 4.6 weeks. I use Michelin Axials, Performance Brand, and Contis (Which ever is cheapest.) and get way more mileage that that. I would be in the poor house at 700 miles per tire.

[Sandy]

Barring a severe abnormal cut which renders the tire useless, I will give you a new tire of your choice if the EVO KX doesn't last more than 700 miles on the rear.

Sandy

[11.4]

Part of the disagreement about aging has to do with the vintage of the tires, and part with method.

Back in the days of the old Clements and Pirellis, tires were made with non-vulcanized rubber treads glued onto casings. Sidewalls were natural fabric (silk or cotton) covered with latex solution. These tires wore down very fast and were also very cut prone just as they came from the factory, so careful aging improved their performance significantly. The standard was to inflate them lightly on clean tubular rims and have them in cool, low-humidity, dark storage hung on the rims (not sitting on the tires). Because of the latex tubes in them, you had to re-inflate them every week. These old rubbers got a lot more resilient and sturdy with this treatment, which is why de Vlaminck, Merckx, and everyone else had racks of bare tubular rims with tires curing on them. Sidewalls became more durable because the silk had an opportunity to dry out well. It was typical practice to put an extra coat of latex on the sidewalls from time to time; I still do that with Dugast track tires, for example.

Fast forward to today, where just about all tires are vulcanized. This process isn't benefited as much by aging (or let's just say that aging helps in some areas, harms in others, so the sweet spot in age changes with regard to different characteristics of the tire). Rubber-covered sidewalls also eliminate the benefit of curing sidewalls. And the mold release compounds on modern vulcanized tires are so pernicious that not much consistent curing will take place unless you scrape that off anyway. So Jobst's comments are not unreasonable when talking about modern tires.

However, like many of us, I like to buy tires on deals and have a wildly excessive stash (just like I do with tubular rims). I mount all new tires on clean rims (I got a deal once on 20 new old Ambrosio Montreals at $6/rim and use them for this purpose) and inflate them to test them for integrity, roundness, etc. I like to hang them for a few weeks this way so they off-gas the worst of their plasticizers, solvents, etc. I find this doesn't cause premature aging, but does create a tougher rubber that doesn't pick up glass or cut as easily. Then I seal each one in a big Ziploc freezer bag and keep them in a cool, dry, dark closet in one of several big Rubbermaid storage bins.

Some tires do tend to behave differently. I've never yet had a Vittoria start to crack on the tread, but have that problem consistently with Conti Competitions -- in the lab I did a brief assay and found Contis have a much higher sulfur content than the Vittorias, consistent with their longer durability but weaker wet-road adhesion and tendency to crack. Veloflexes I treat like Vittorias but with less open-air storage prior to going into the Ziploc. And as for Dugasts, I treat them like the old tires for at least a winter, at which point they are completely different tires, improved in both durability and adhesion. Do note that some Dugasts are now being made with vulcanized treads stripped from other tires or purchased from Vittoria, so tire by tire examination may be necessary (I'm speaking mostly of the file-tread track tires and the latex tread ones).

Pardon the verbosity.

[dirtdigger88]

Ok it was ment to be. I am down in Nashville and run into a buddy who rides. I asked him about the Vittorias- turns out he has a brand new pair- and even better. . . he needs some new cross tires. . . his cycling funds are low at the moment. We end up trading his tires for some cross ones that I paid for at the shop. I got the tires for about 40 bucks so life is good and all are happy.

I will post a ride report soon.

Jason

[Too Tall]

Thank you 11.4, good info. Always nice to hear it.

[Sandy]

Notice that 11.4 posted at exactly 11:40.

Sandy

[William]

I've noticed on a number of old Conti & Hutchins (sp?) clinchers that the rubber starts to degrade, esp on the sides where the wire/lip is located. The Hutchins esp developed cracks in the side walls. The rubber basically gets crumbly and starts cracking. Now, these had sat around for quite a while and had seen use at one time, but still had tread left.

I just basically look my tires over every couple of rides and if I notice any cracks or splits developing I'll pull them and put new ones on (even if there is tread left). I don't like sidewall blow outs at speed while decending... :no: ...and I've had it happen. :crap: No tanks.


William :)

[davids]

What brand of tires?

[dirtdigger88]

I KNOW I have ridden on those tires in at least a couple of the races that I have done.


Jason