Question number two- Serotta Race Bikes

[Sandy]

I have recently seen posts that suggest that Serotta bikes are really not race bikes. Serotta is said to be selling to a different market.

Serotta sponsors two teams that I am aware of, and that must be financially difficult for a company that is Serotta's size compared to the much larger producers.

Since Serotta's are almost all custom bikes, and one can choose from titanium, steel, and titanium/carbon bikes, why are the above comments being made? Is it to be believed that only full carbon or aluminum bikes are race worthy? Do Serotta bikes weigh too much for the upper echelon of pro cyclists? Serotta design?? I don't understand. Please explain.

I would think that Serotta bikes could do quite well in racing.


Snail Sandy

[dbrk]

Of course Serotta can and are raced but the _trend_ in race bikes is to aluminum and carbon because these are lighter than what Serotta makes and far, far less expensive (even at the level of production). So modern racers being the weeniest of them all (and for their own good reasons, I suppose) want lighter and accept cheaper. Racing involves crashing and no one who races can expect NOT to crash? Are folks prepared to see their Ottrott ST go skidding across the tarmac or tumble down the road end over end? Back when race bikes were steel or ti as a rule then Serotta looked like a bike not unlike others but if you put a Serotta in today's peloton it looks unusual. Sierra Nevada notwithstanding or the Postal Masters, of course.

dbrk

[Big Dan]

Douglas is right, when I got my first Serotta around '95 it was a race bike. At the time Coors Light was riding Serottas with riders like Davis Phinney and Ron Kiefel. Consider the investment now, I wouldn't mind racing a CIII, but a CAAD5 or 7 is cheaper and lighter... :bike:

[William]

Back when I started racing around 93 - 94, there were a lot of people from all cat levels racing on Serottas'. Many had special deals through their LBS or directly from Serotta (mainly collegiate I believe). At that time, Serottas weren't as expensive as they are now. Also, as dbrk points out, Aluminum and carbon have come a long way and in many instances are cheaper than most Serottas. In racing, crashes happen no matter how good you are (or think you are). And a large % of racers who have the time to train as much as they should to be regularly competitive, don't have jobs that pay a whole lot of $$. Anyone who has a decked out Ottrot or any bike that is even half the cost, IMO, would be nuts to race it regularly unless they have that kind of $$ constantly burning holes in their pockets.

Serotta did, and does support teams. But I can honestly say that over the years I have seen fewer and fewer Serottas out there mixing it up. It's just that they might be slowly pricing themselves out of that market segment. A lot of mfr's have come in to take over most of that segment of the market.

Get back to some low cost "racing irons" as Too Tall so eloquently put it. Just like the focus of the old Mopar Road Runners, stripped down, low cost, HI PO racing metal. :D :cool:

William

[coylifut]

I remember we covered this a while back and the general consensus was that for a pro in the continental peleton, ride quality was a luxury and weight and stiffness were premiums. Since Serotta makes bikes where ride quality is # 1 and the other qualities 2nd and 3rd, this could be achieved far more cost effective by a builder who mass produces alloy. I remember the Jerk wrote (this is a partial quote) "yes titanium does have a distinct feel and will outlast anything. the latter definitely makes a stiff slightly heavy legend ti possibly the ideal privateer race bike, but will titanium ever win Olympic gold again? not unless magnus backstadt is racing and that's a different story all together." I don't see that as criticism at all. I believe he wrote that because it can be used year in and out, crashed on, generally abused and it's going to ride nice and if your legs can keep their end of the bargain, you could win your district’s championship on it.

20 years from now, we'll all be checking ebay for today's Serottas. The current crop of pro level alloy bikes will all be dead and buried. I have a friend who's racing D III and in a slide out style crash, one where he was the only one who went down, he broke an Obrea in half. Yes, in half. Once on a training ride I asked him how he liked his Obrea and he said that it does the job but I'm glad it's not mine. He then went on and on about a steel Strong that he loves to ride handed down to him by his dad.

Responding to Williams comment “Anyone who has a decked out Ottrot or any bike that is even half the cost, IMO, would be nuts to race it regularly unless they have that kind of $$ constantly burning holes in their pockets.” What’s ½ the cost of an Ottrot, $2,500 or so? Someone could get a pretty nice ti frame for that. It’s my contention that ti is the ultimate privateers choice because it holds up well in a crash and can be repaired. I bought mine after witnessing a friend’s get roofed where it collapsed the fork, but the frame was repaired with a scotch brite sponge. The bike remained in perfect alignment. I can’t afford a cheap bike.

[scottyj]

My HSG Ti is an awesome race bike. The superior stability and handling characteristics that Serotta offers allow me to throw myself through the corners with a grace and abandon that I was never able to achieve with 'racier' brands.
The excellent ride quality allows me to relax and work on the long road races but when I need it in a sprint the stiffness leaves nothing to be desired.

There's more to a good race bike than a low weight.

Shift the paradigm away from the gram obsession to overall ability to rock and you'll race better.

[e-RICHIE]

that's 3 years to the day atmo.

[Fixed]

it ain't the sled it's the cat
imho cheers bro

[Grant McLean]

Most people buying road bikes at retail don't race.

Real racers have some kind of deal/sponsorship/connection to the get product.

Do the math.

-g

[J.Greene]

Most people buying road bikes at retail don't race.

Real racers have some kind of deal/sponsorship/connection to the get product.
Do the math.

-g

True, few bikes get raced.

I don't race the bike my team gets a deal on. I guess if I really got a deal I'd race it. But I'm not a real racer anyway. Just a hanger-on.

JG

[93legendti]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=2542

[Pete Serotta]

While I am not a racer, it is the world of economics that selects which bike the vast majority of the teams ride...."Who is sponsoring them with $$s either thru payment, product, or a measure of both".

A firm like SEROTTA can not compete in the advertisement of a product such as SPECIALIZED, GIANT, and many others can. It takes MILLIONs.

Just because a team rides a certain "brand" it does not mean it is better and more competitive for winning a race. What it does certainly mean is that the team (not just the racers) have received financial consideration to show the product in the race. Quite often there are even bonuses for placing in a race.

It is the rider who determines the competitiveness of the product. The rider is enticed to ride for the team based on what it provides to him/her. This can be $$s, publicity, a chance to move up in rankings and then - will equate to more $$s and fame and maybe fortune.

There are many products out there that will make it to the "podium" - it does not mean they are better for racing - IT JUST MEANS A BETTER RIDER/TEAM were using them. (Yes luck always has some bearing too)

The same folks (Ben) who designed for such teams as 7-11, Coors,USPS, Sierra Nevada are still designing. They still personally ride all the prototypes before they ever make it to production. David Phinney until recently and maybe still, has won the most "pro" races of a US rider - he still rides a SEROTTA in retirement and quite often provides feedback on new product.

As many of the folks previously have said the frames of today are being used as race tools and are disposable. They are used for a few races and quite often not the entire season by the Pros. (if they crash the season is even shorter). What makes them more of a race bike is the sponsor dollars that are provided to the team :D

Serotta makes as good of a tool if not better BUT with comfort, custom size, and longevity. The frames have a warranty for as long as you own them.
As such they will never be the lightest but they can be the same weight as the race bikes you mention.

They are every bit the race bike and are backed by more race heritage than most brands (No hate mail - for COLNAGO and others have plenty of heritage also)

I will now get off my soap box...

[Pete Serotta]

Sandy see in quotes below.......PETE

I have recently seen posts that suggest that Serotta bikes are really not race bikes. (Consider the source of these statements)

Serotta is said to be selling to a different market. (Meeting the customer's requirements is the market that SEROTTA is selling to.)

Serotta sponsors two teams that I am aware of, and that must be financially difficult for a company that is Serotta's size compared to the much larger producers. (Yes it comes down to pure dollars - sponsoring costs LOTS)

Since Serotta's are almost all custom bikes, and one can choose from titanium, steel, and titanium/carbon bikes, why are the above comments being made? (see prior note)

Is it to be believed that only full carbon or aluminum bikes are race worthy? (These are materials - not the bike)

Do Serotta bikes weigh too much for the upper echelon of pro cyclists? (as mentioned, they can be the same weight but will cost more because the are a better "every day/multi season product)

Serotta design?? (they are second to none in road racing)

I don't understand. Please explain.

I would think that Serotta bikes could do quite well in racing. (yes they could , it they could themselves find a sponsor with deep pockets,)


Snail Sandy

[bzbvh5]

Which bike would you much rather wreck, dent the top tube, or try to replace.

1. Specialized Tarmac
2. Trek Madone
3. Bianchi San Larenzo
4. Serotta - pick the model, it really doesn't matter

The choice is simple.

[swoop]

Most people buying road bikes at retail don't race.

Real racers have some kind of deal/sponsorship/connection to the get product.

Do the math.

-g


word.

[fiamme red]

that's 3 years to the day atmo.Speaking of "gay", three years to the day:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/15/nyregion/15codey.html

[soulspinner]

I remember we covered this a while back and the general consensus was that for a pro in the continental peleton, ride quality was a luxury and weight and stiffness were premiums. Since Serotta makes bikes where ride quality is # 1 and the other qualities 2nd and 3rd, this could be achieved far more cost effective by a builder who mass produces alloy. I remember the Jerk wrote (this is a partial quote) "yes titanium does have a distinct feel and will outlast anything. the latter definitely makes a stiff slightly heavy legend ti possibly the ideal privateer race bike, but will titanium ever win Olympic gold again? not unless magnus backstadt is racing and that's a different story all together." I don't see that as criticism at all. I believe he wrote that because it can be used year in and out, crashed on, generally abused and it's going to ride nice and if your legs can keep their end of the bargain, you could win your district’s championship on it.

20 years from now, we'll all be checking ebay for today's Serottas. The current crop of pro level alloy bikes will all be dead and buried. I have a friend who's racing D III and in a slide out style crash, one where he was the only one who went down, he broke an Obrea in half. Yes, in half. Once on a training ride I asked him how he liked his Obrea and he said that it does the job but I'm glad it's not mine. He then went on and on about a steel Strong that he loves to ride handed down to him by his dad.

Responding to Williams comment “Anyone who has a decked out Ottrot or any bike that is even half the cost, IMO, would be nuts to race it regularly unless they have that kind of $$ constantly burning holes in their pockets.” What’s ½ the cost of an Ottrot, $2,500 or so? Someone could get a pretty nice ti frame for that. It’s my contention that ti is the ultimate privateers choice because it holds up well in a crash and can be repaired. I bought mine after witnessing a friend’s get roofed where it collapsed the fork, but the frame was repaired with a scotch brite sponge. The bike remained in perfect alignment. I can’t afford a cheap bike.


Wow. This post deserves a :beer:

[Brian Smith]

Which bike would you much rather wreck, dent the top tube, or try to replace.

1. Specialized Tarmac
2. Trek Madone
3. Bianchi San Larenzo
4. Serotta - pick the model, it really doesn't matter

The choice is simple.

bzbvh: are you aware of the Serotta Crash Replacement Program?
Here's a quote from our very own website:

$250 for 5 Years of coverage.

Base coverage includes all repair work required. If replacement if necessary, the following additional fees apply:
Steel Frames $150
Titanium and iT models $300
Carbon Models $400

In addition to your Crash Protection, a FREE 5 year Serotta Owners' Club membership is also included ($100 value).

I don't know how much money Serotta could lose with this program, do YOU?
The choice is not as simple as you would have it. Repair and refinish your customised frame for $250-$650 over the course of 5 years? Maybe it's time to redo your math. What's the chance that the crap you take off your proposed Tarmac (for example) is going to fit on the non-warranty replacement Specialized offers you in 4 years, and what's the cost to outift the replacement frame with a combination of your crap and new crap, and what's the value of what you end up having thereafter?
I'm biased because I happen to think a lot more of what a Serotta frame offers you than what a carbon (versus aluminium) crank offers you, but these days the disposable stuff you hang on a race frame is getting much more expensive and atmo a worse value than what a premium frame offers you. You're not going to read that in a magazine financed by advertisers, but that isn't evidence of anything real.

[Fixed]

mr smith 's potd race the good stuff and train on it it should feel like your right hand imho
cheers

[swoop]

if i were sponsored to race masters for another year and serotta happened to be the sponsor... i'm sure they could make me as fine a real race bike as could be made...and i'd race the snot out of it.



if i were gonna buy a serotta i'd set it to be as tight and stiff and to share the personlaity traits of my race bike ideals.... becuase that's what i like to ride.

so i think the point is they can make you what you want. i just think that most folks look for something to help their bodies assume the position... and a bike is also a status symbol and an object of desire and they can do that too.

i'm sure ivan d on a stiff meivici to the geo of his liking would kill on that bike.

[djg]

Sandy, I think it's mostly about money and perceptions, but what do I know?

It's big bucks to sponsor a pro tour team and I expect that Serotta -- and companies of Serotta's scale -- have largely been priced out of the game. The majority of those pro riders ride what they are paid to ride -- rebadging still happens, but for lots of road bikes it's harder to pull off and quite a bit less common than it once was.

Amateur racers -- well, ride all sorts of things, including some Serottas, but most amateur racers are younger folks chasing cheaper rigs than Serotta has on offer and the bigger factories get to sell both some high end rigs to those who can foot the bill and many, many more less expensive rigs to the masses. FWIW, I expect that most budget cannies, like the latest and greatest, like most C50s, like most Tarmac SLs, like most Madones, like most Trek 1500s, are sold to folks who do not race at all.

Blah, blah, blah. So I'll make ya a deal. In a pathetic, middle-aged cry for help, my ancient and leaden tuches has been dabbling in a few cross races this fall after not racing at all for many, many moons. You buy me a power bar and let me oggle your Porsche for a couple minutes, and I'll race a Serotta on the road in the spring. Young girls will not cry, unless my daughters see me crash, and the annals of the sport will remain indifferent, but I'll race an HSG, and when I do, it'll be a race bike, nu?

[Delpo]

I race the @#$% out of my Serotta. When I race I think about racing only, not about crashing. If you can not stand the heat...

Delpo

[swoop]

to add.. i did a ton of crits on my seven elium race. tons. a couple of categories per event, mid week training crits... at least 60... i even crashed hard at manhattan beach. the bike is fine. its a bike. the harder i get to push it the more i get out of it.

if it got destroyed i'd of worked something else out. it would have been a worthy end to it.

[Peter P.]

True; Serottas are no longer "race" bikes. They're definitely marketed to the deep pocket types. I see too many with extended head tube/hybrid bike looking geometries to take them seriously.

I believe that's why Serotta HAS to sponsor race teams-so they don't lose what shred of racing legitimacy they have left.

Serotta can CERTAINLY make race-worthy frames and I'm sure they do now; it's just not what the market is looking for. To get racing "cred", a frame HAS to be between the legs of a visible/successful racer/team.

I said the same thing about e-Richie's frames, but he took exception to that. I still say I'm right.

[swoop]

so when merlin wasn't under rite aid the weren't race bikes and when serotta stopped with postal masters they were no longer race bikes?

when they build a race bike its a race bike and when they build a bike its a bike. its situational... i think the idea is they tailor the experience to the customer's need.

[flux]

Slam a 130/-17 stem on a HSG and I would race the 01100110011101010110001101101011 out of it any day.

Gladly.

[e-RICHIE]

To get racing "cred", a frame HAS to be between the legs of a visible/successful racer/team.

I said the same thing about e-Richie's frames, but he took exception to that. I still say I'm right.
refresh my memory atmo.

[Fixed]

bro the watch maker is cross



imho racing cross on his red bike in 50 years someone will see a red shadow
on e.s.'s home corse it'll be the watch maker flyin by a whisper could be heard ....your frame will be ready soooooonnnn atmo
cheers
http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachscybc.html

[coylifut]

looks like you've bought the pro tour image hook, line and sinker.

True; Serottas are no longer "race" bikes. They're definitely marketed to the deep pocket types. I see too many with extended head tube/hybrid bike looking geometries to take them seriously.

I believe that's why Serotta HAS to sponsor race teams-so they don't lose what shred of racing legitimacy they have left.

Serotta can CERTAINLY make race-worthy frames and I'm sure they do now; it's just not what the market is looking for. To get racing "cred", a frame HAS to be between the legs of a visible/successful racer/team.

I said the same thing about e-Richie's frames, but he took exception to that. I still say I'm right.

[shinomaster]

I've seen a lot of cute ladies racing cross on Serottas this season.

[Sandy]

I started this thread 3 years ago, November 15,2004. I wonder where it will be heading. Excellent comments so far.


Sandy

[e-RICHIE]

I started this thread 3 years ago, November 15,2004.


Sandy
ya see what happens when you leave for a 15 miler atmo?

[pdxmech13]

Truckin' - got my chips cashed in
Keep Truckin - like the doodah man
Together - more or less in line
Just keep Truckin on
Arrows of neon and flashing marquees out on Main Street
Chicago, New York, Detroit it's all on the same street
Your typical city involved in a typical daydream
Hang it up and see what tomorrow brings

Dallas - got a soft machine
Houston - too close to New Orleans
New York - got the ways and means
but just won't let you be

Most of the cats you meet on the street speak of True Love
Most of the time they're sittin and cryin at home
One of these days they know they gotta get goin
out of the door and down to the street all alone

Truckin - like the doodah man
once told me you got to play your hand
sometime - the cards ain't worth a dime
if you don't lay em down

Sometimes the light's all shining on me
Other times I can barely see
Lately it occurs to me
What a long strange trip it's been

What in the world ever became of sweet Jane?
She lost her sparkle, you know she isn't the same
Living on reds, vitamin C and cocaine
all a friend can say is "ain't it a shame"

Truckin' -- up to Buffalo
Been thinkin - you got to mellow slow
Takes time - you pick a place to go
and just keep Truckin on

Sitting and staring out of a hotel window
Got a tip they're gonna kick the door in again
I'd like to get some sleep before I travel
but if you got a warrant I guess you're gonna come in

Busted - down on Bourbon Street
Set up - like a bowling pin
Knocked down - it gets to wearing thin
They just won't let you be

You're sick of hanging around and you'd like to travel
Tired of travel, you want to settle down
I guess they can't revoke your soul for trying
Get out of the door - light out and look all around

Sometimes the light's all shining on me
Other times I can barely see
Lately it occurs to me
what a long strange trip it's been

Truckin - I'm goin home
Whoa-oh baby, back where I belong
Back home - sit down and patch my bones
and get back Truckin on

[Sandy]

if i were sponsored to race masters for another year and serotta happened to be the sponsor... i'm sure they could make me as fine a real race bike as could be made...and i'd race the snot out of it.



if i were gonna buy a serotta i'd set it to be as tight and stiff and to share the personlaity traits of my race bike ideals.... becuase that's what i like to ride.

so i think the point is they can make you what you want. i just think that most folks look for something to help their bodies assume the position... and a bike is also a status symbol and an object of desire and they can do that too.

i'm sure ivan d on a stiff meivici to the geo of his liking would kill on that bike.

I sometimes wonder what point you try to make and why. I own one bike- a Serotta Ottrott ST. I used to own a Serotta CSI. I no longer have it. I just ordered (today) an all steel Coeur D' Acieur. I bought none of these bikes "as a status symbol" nor as an "object of desire". I ordered the first Serotta in 1998 after test riding 15-20 different bikes and realized that the Serottas possessed stability and efficiency in transferring pedal input into forward motion unlike I found in any other bikes. Serottas seemed very well constructed and Serotta the company had a great reputation. I bought the CSI primarily because I loved the way it rode, period- Can you not understand that? I drive a Porsche Cayman S- No status, nor great object of desire. I bought it because it is an amazing handling car that is remarkably predictable, and composed. It is a joy to drive, just like the Serotta is a joy to ride.

I am going to be 67 next month. I know that you will not like the look of my bike because it will have an additional 2.4 cm of ht extension over the normal .7,and 2.5+ cm of spacers below the stem. That is with a drop of 5 cm from a seat to handle bar. It won't look like your bike. I will be glad to explain how the ht extension and spacers were determined. When you are 67, perhaps you will have different needs or desires too.

My Porsche does not even have the Cayman S on it. I deleted it when it was ordered. My all steel Coeur D' Acier will have no Serotta decals anywhere on the entire bike. The only decal on the bike will be a S on the ht.

Surely, some buy bikes, cars, boats,watches,...., are "status symbols" and are "objects of desires" for some. I know probably 50 cyclists who own Serottas, and none of them, I feel, bought their Serotta because of your above criteria (know that you did not say that they did). They bought quality, a great riding bike, reputation, customer service, warranty....probably just the reason or reasons you buy items.

I can afford a Serotta and I can afford the Porsche. Is that bad?

When you are 67, I hope that you are still cycling and racing. I bet that you will still be a real enthusiast. I bet, however, that your bike will not look like it does now- you might even have spacers..ht extension.... and you will not be buying watever you buy because of a "status symbol" or as some "object of desire".

Who do you know, really know, that purchased their Serotta for what you give above????


Sandy

[pdxmech13]

2 cm of spacers below the stem

no that's a well designed bike and it will look proper

can't wait to see it Sandy. Ive been commuting on my cda and its a joy !

[DarrenCT]

2 cm of spacers below the stem

no that's a well designed bike and it will look proper

can't wait to see it Sandy. Ive been commuting on my cda and its a joy !

i thought it was 2 inches atmo?

[Your_Friend!]

Sandy!



You Are

A Living

Legend!




Love,
Y_F!

[pdxmech13]

2.4 cm above the original .7
and 2 cm under the stem
:banana: :banana:

[SPOKE]

True; Serottas are no longer "race" bikes. They're definitely marketed to the deep pocket types. I see too many with extended head tube/hybrid bike looking geometries to take them seriously.

I believe that's why Serotta HAS to sponsor race teams-so they don't lose what shred of racing legitimacy they have left.

Serotta can CERTAINLY make race-worthy frames and I'm sure they do now; it's just not what the market is looking for. To get racing "cred", a frame HAS to be between the legs of a visible/successful racer/team.

I said the same thing about e-Richie's frames, but he took exception to that. I still say I'm right.

sounds to me like "race bike" means a very generous seat to bar drop to you?? this one detail may mean "race bike" to you but it really goes way beyond that one detail. balance, power transmission, tracking (especially when pushed hard while cornering), feedback and i'm sure there are other qualities that my small mind can't remember or even cpmprehend. all of these qualities are available with a custom Serotta. yea, a custom Serotta is on the high end of the pricing scale but so what!! the Serotta product isn't built to be a disposible bike.....race or otherwise. there are plenty of off the rack "race bikes" available now that are north of $4k and quite a few north of $6k. i can also tell you that most of them might be good for a couple seasons at best.

[Sandy]

2 cm of spacers below the stem

no that's a well designed bike and it will look proper

can't wait to see it Sandy. Ive been commuting on my cda and its a joy !

After I typed my post I realized that I put 2 cm of spacers. That was an error. It will be closer to 3. I use a - 6 degree stem. In my Ottrott it is 11 cm, but in the CDA, it will be a 12 cm stem, but a different handlebar. The spacers below the stem will probably be close to but less than 3, to start with.

I chose to do the bike in a single color with no decals except on the ht. Don't know how it will look.


Sandy

[Sandy]

ya see what happens when you leave for a 15 miler atmo?

OK- So it took me 3 years to do the full 15 miler. I did 8 miles 2004-2005 , and 6 miles from 2005-2006 . But the course became real hilly, so I slowed down and did only one mile from 2006-2007. :)


Snail Slow Sandy

[swoop]

sandy.. a bike can be many things to many people. it can be an object of desire, a status symbol, a tool, and instrument, a relationship, or any number of those things all at once or nothing.

some folks have an emotional connection to certain bikes and not to others. for some folks a certain bike is an aspirational object. and others a companion in some sort of journey. a bike is a bike is not just a bike. it depends on you.

many folks justify a serotta because they think its 'the best' as if.. there is such a thing.

and there is nothing wrong with that. its relevant.

[Sandy]

sounds to me like "race bike" means a very generous seat to bar drop to you?? this one detail may mean "race bike" to you but it really goes way beyond that one detail. balance, power transmission, tracking (especially when pushed hard while cornering), feedback and i'm sure there are other qualities that my small mind can't remember or even cpmprehend. all of these qualities are available with a custom Serotta. yea, a custom Serotta is on the high end of the pricing scale but so what!! the Serotta product isn't built to be a disposible bike.....race or otherwise. there are plenty of off the rack "race bikes" available now that are north of $4k and quite a few north of $6k. i can also tell you that most of them might be good for a couple seasons at best.

My custom Coeur D'Acier, with Dura-Ace 10, without wheels or pedals, is well under $5,000.


Sandy

[saab2000]

Bikes need wheels and pedals.

BTW, I would love to try out that Cayman S. 6-speed?

[Sandy]

Bikes need wheels and pedals.

BTW, I would love to try out that Cayman S. 6-speed?

Now someone tells me I need wheels and pedals. No wonder I am so slow. :) :)

6 speed- Anytime you are in the DC area, please let me know and you are welcome to drive it.


Sandy

[rounder]

When I read discussions like this it reminds me of my guitar...a martin hd28...and why I got it. It is not the heaviest or lightest. It is definitely not the flashiest. But when you hold it, it feels right. You tune it and it doesn't matter which string you tune first, it goes in tune. When you play it, everything sounds right. It doesn't matter whether it is an open chord or somewhere up the neck. When you look at it and hold it up to the light there are no obvious mistakes...you can see quality of construction everywhere (it even smells good). Then you consider that pretty much everyone you ever thought was really great played a martin at sometime, or forever, then it sinks in that you didn't make a mistake when you bought it. That is sort of how I feel about serotta.

[Sandy]

When I read discussions like this it reminds me of my guitar...a martin hd28...and why I got it. It is not the heaviest or lightest. It is definitely not the flashiest. But when you hold it, it feels right. You tune it and it doesn't matter which string you tune first, it goes in tune. When you play it, everything sounds right. It doesn't matter whether it is an open chord or somewhere up the neck. When you look at it and hold it up to the light there are no obvious mistakes...you can see quality of construction everywhere (it even smells good). Then you consider that pretty much everyone you ever thought was really great played a martin at sometime, or forever, then it sinks in that you didn't make a mistake when you bought it. That is sort of how I feel about serotta.

Very well said!

Les Paul

[Avispa]

Most people buying road bikes at retail don't race.

Well.... Especially the $8K+ road bikes, you know... But, I guess the "Huffy" and "Caloi", etc. days are over :crap: That is, the days when a racer would race whatever he/she really liked and just painted it over with the club/team bike sponsor; sometimes at their own expense!

Today, bike sponsor deals are so legally bound that it doesn't allow for any "creativity" or flexibility. Look what Specialized did to please Boonen! In the good old days, Tom would had just grabbed any bike that he liked and had the team mechanic plaster Specialized decals on it!

Now, remember, the fact that Ducati is one of the most successful race motorcycles in the world, doesn't mean you can just grab one at the local show room and enter the MotoGP Class or the Superbike World Championship with it, without tweaking the thing greatly! That is, if you want to be near the top when the race ends.

...I'd say, the same goes with a Serotta... ;)

..A..

[djg]

Now someone tells me I need wheels and pedals. No wonder I am so slow. :) :)

6 speed- Anytime you are in the DC area, please let me know and you are welcome to drive it.


Sandy

Sandy, how come everybody and his cousin's pet goldfish gets an offer to drive the Cayman but I cannot even get you to take me up on my powerbar offer? What am I, chopped liver?

[Fixed]

When I read discussions like this it reminds me of my guitar...a martin hd28...and why I got it. It is not the heaviest or lightest. It is definitely not the flashiest. But when you hold it, it feels right. You tune it and it doesn't matter which string you tune first, it goes in tune. When you play it, everything sounds right. It doesn't matter whether it is an open chord or somewhere up the neck. When you look at it and hold it up to the light there are no obvious mistakes...you can see quality of construction everywhere (it even smells good). Then you consider that pretty much everyone you ever thought was really great played a martin at sometime, or forever, then it sinks in that you didn't make a mistake when you bought it. That is sort of how I feel about serotta.
nice bro

[Ti Designs]

If you put four guys together wearing lycra you have a race - doesn't matter what they're riding. Could be a Serotta, could be a lawn mower, doesn't matter. My point is that you've gotten into this argument about what a race bike is without defining what a race is.

I see racing different than most. I don't give a crap about pro racing, mutants with financial backing isn't a sport I'm any part of. For every pro there are 1000 cat 4's looking for upgrade points. These aren't the guys with the full carbon bikes and $5000 wheels, most of them have gotten into the sport on a limited budget and have to balance bike costs with paying the mortgage or feeding the wife and kids. Sponsors? Honestly, what does a lone cat 4 offer the bike industry that would cause some bike builder to cough up a bike? Teams may get something due to their size, but that also would imply that the whole team would be happy with the same bike.

Now take a good look at Serotta and what they make. They make a very limited number of bikes, so they are looking for the maximum dollar return per frame sold. If the GPM is about the same, it's always better for them to sell a more expensive bike. Ben is no dummy, first the Ottrot pushed the limits of what aframe could cost, and they did sell. Then the full carbon bikes pushed the price up even higher. Are they gunning for the racer market with a $7000 frame? Nope. Can they still be raced? Get three of your friends together wearing lycra and find out.

The image thing is the down side to marketing to the rich. Serotta came out with their HSG lineup for that, but I haven't seen it do much for their reputation. I still have customers who refuse to think about buying a Serotta because their image.

If it's all about drop from the saddle to the bars, based on my own bike I would have to say that Serotta can make a race bike (if you ask nicely)

[Fixed]

ti brings us back to the real world imho thanks
cheers imho

[DarrenCT]

speaking of saddle/bar drop. what pro has the most drop?? im interested!

[e-RICHIE]

what are the tennis world equivilents to this?
are fans and raquet consumers obsessed with
minutiae atmo?

[J.Greene]

what are the tennis world equivilents to this?
are fans and raquet consumers obsessed with
minutiae atmo?

Posers are!

JG

[DarrenCT]

what are the tennis world equivilents to this?
are fans and raquet consumers obsessed with
minutiae atmo?

the pro's have each racquet weighed and balanced so they are exactly the same. grips are customized and either build up or the shape is slightly changed.

led tape is added at certain points along the frame for increased stability or weight.

the string is pre-stretched before the racquet is strung and usually string is only in the racquet for a couple days to a week then its cut out.

some pro's have their own stringer that travels with them.

they are very very precise!

[Sandy]

Posers are!

JG

I think pros are too. probably more so, with their own set of minutiae.


Not a pro, at least not yet,


Serotta Speedster Snail Slow Sandy

[merckx]

If you put four guys together wearing lycra you have a race - doesn't matter what they're riding. Could be a Serotta, could be a lawn mower, doesn't matter. My point is that you've gotten into this argument about what a race bike is without defining what a race is.

I see racing different than most. I don't give a crap about pro racing, mutants with financial backing isn't a sport I'm any part of. For every pro there are 1000 cat 4's looking for upgrade points. These aren't the guys with the full carbon bikes and $5000 wheels, most of them have gotten into the sport on a limited budget and have to balance bike costs with paying the mortgage or feeding the wife and kids. Sponsors? Honestly, what does a lone cat 4 offer the bike industry that would cause some bike builder to cough up a bike? Teams may get something due to their size, but that also would imply that the whole team would be happy with the same bike.

Now take a good look at Serotta and what they make. They make a very limited number of bikes, so they are looking for the maximum dollar return per frame sold. If the GPM is about the same, it's always better for them to sell a more expensive bike. Ben is no dummy, first the Ottrot pushed the limits of what aframe could cost, and they did sell. Then the full carbon bikes pushed the price up even higher. Are they gunning for the racer market with a $7000 frame? Nope. Can they still be raced? Get three of your friends together wearing lycra and find out.

The image thing is the down side to marketing to the rich. Serotta came out with their HSG lineup for that, but I haven't seen it do much for their reputation. I still have customers who refuse to think about buying a Serotta because their image.

If it's all about drop from the saddle to the bars, based on my own bike I would have to say that Serotta can make a race bike (if you ask nicely)

That is a nice piece of prose.

[e-RICHIE]

the pro's have each racquet weighed and balanced so they are exactly the same. grips are customized and either build up or the shape is slightly changed.

led tape is added at certain points along the frame for increased stability or weight.

the string is pre-stretched before the racquet is strung and usually string is only in the racquet for a couple days to a week then its cut out.

some pro's have their own stringer that travels with them.

they are very very precise!
i kinda sorta know this atmo -

but they are getting paid to hit the
ball. my question is about fans and
consumers trying to emulate the pros
when they only see the game from
the sidelines, and are also at least
30 pounds overweight.

[J.Greene]

I think pros are too. probably more so, with their own set of minutiae.


Not a pro, at least not yet,


Serotta Speedster Snail Slow Sandy

My point goes back to sports stars in general. Tennis players are not paid to hit the ball. They are paid to sell rackets, clothing etc to us poseurs (that's french for poser)..... And to steal a quote from from e-Richie, I'd buy some of Anna Kournikova's bath water atmo.

JG

[DarrenCT]

i kinda sorta know this atmo -

but they are getting paid to hit the
ball. my question is about fans and
consumers trying to emulate the pros
when they only see the game from
the sidelines, and are also at least
30 pounds overweight.

ahh ya for sure. for example, lots of "hobby players" who suck are using the racquet Federer uses. its too heavy and too small and requires serious hand-eye and most people shouldn't be using it, however, they think they'll be as good as Federer.

racquets haven't changed much in like 15 years and people are still getting sucked in to buying the "newest model".

federer's racquet is the same as the racquet sampras and edberg used.

what HAS changed, is the string. most pros use a polyester string like Big Banger
http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpage.html?PCODE=ALUPR16

again, you need to be a good player to absorb the advantages of this string and some hackers still use it.

-tennis darren

[Fat Robert]

And to steal a quote from from e-Richie, I'd buy some of Anna Kournikova's bath water atmo.

JG


i have some to sell you

but i've sat in it a coupla times

so has my dog

and then me again

anyway

any bike you enter in a race becomes a race bike

[Sandy]

i have some to sell you

but i've sat in it a coupla times

so has my dog

and then me again

anyway

any bike you enter in a race becomes a race bike

So let me get this right. If I enter a race, my bike becomes a race bike. I am riding my bike, so that makes me a bike racer? And after the race, I can tell everyone I am a road bike racer, and if I embellish the facts a small bit, that I am a cat 1 or 2, or maybe even a pro bike racer?? And that I am looking for a sponsor? :D :D


Team Serotta

[Fat Robert]

So let me get this right. If I enter a race, my bike becomes a race bike. I am riding my bike, so that makes me a bike racer? And after the race, I can tell everyone I am a road bike racer, and if I embellish the facts a small bit, that I am a cat 1 or 2, or maybe even a pro bike racer?? And that I am looking for a sponsor? :D :D


Team Serotta


that is a common pattern

[redir]

When I decided to give road racing a try I bought a carbon/AL framed bike. It was a pretty nice bike actually. But then I dropped a pump about 4 inches from the frame and the TT got a small dent in it. Then I dropped the chain during a hard climbing effort and sawed a hole right through the chain stay. Then I crashed and tacoed a wheel which scoured a 3mm deep groove in the carbon fork. I was like WTH?

So that frame lasted 2 race seasons and is now retired. I went out and got a used Moots Compact frame thinking that this bike will last me for ever. I read about the same stuff in this thread about Moots. That they were built more for the rich weekend warier or the century stud because they were all about comfort and longevity. Ding! Ding! Ding! that's the bike for me! Something I can race till I get tired of racing and move on to other things in life and still have a nice bike to ride when I'm 65. I still have my 82 'Guerciotti and my '85 Nashbar touring bikes. Steel is real :) The Moots is a beautiful race machine. So far I have worn a yellow jersey and a spotted jersey on my Moots. She corners on a dime and I can ride her for 100 miles with no discomfort aside from 100 miles of fatigue.

A friend of mine who raced for Rite-Aid a few years ago commented when he saw that I got a Moots that the TI bikes they were racing on at the time was his very favourite race bike ever and this guy has ridden a lot of bikes.

[zap]

snipped

The image thing is the down side to marketing to the rich. Serotta came out with their HSG lineup for that, but I haven't seen it do much for their reputation. I still have customers who refuse to think about buying a Serotta because their image.



Agreed.

The '08 HSG is the bike Serotta should have built at least 5 years ago.

Anyhow, anyone can race. Show up on some super duper Walmart model at a race, start the race and I guess you have a race bike. You won't be happy with the super duper Walmart model, but you can say it's a race bike.

[fiamme red]

What was question number one?

[Sandy]

What was question number one?

Question two was my question that I posted 3 years ago, believe it or not. Question one was undoutedly my question also, but I have no idea at all what it was. I don't remember what happened a week ago. I guess that I could go back to that time and find out what I asked in question one.


Dumb as a rock,


:banana: Super Smart Super Simple Siper Serotta Somebody :banana:

[djg]

ahh ya for sure. for example, lots of "hobby players" who suck are using the racquet Federer uses. its too heavy and too small and requires serious hand-eye and most people shouldn't be using it, however, they think they'll be as good as Federer.


-tennis darren

Heck, how many thousands of those blue and black b'lat sticks have duffers consumed so that they can serve like Andy R? I'm not sure why anybody likes them, but there ya go.

[djg]

i kinda sorta know this atmo -

but they are getting paid to hit the
ball. my question is about fans and
consumers trying to emulate the pros
when they only see the game from
the sidelines, and are also at least
30 pounds overweight.

Well, 30 pounds overweight for what? I played one year of college tennis, and did two years of college bike racing (followed by another handful or so of non-college bike racing of no particular distinction). I was lean -- not pro tour (cycling) lean, but not bad. So, I'm heavier than I used to be, and heavier than I'd like to be given that I've talked myself into racing again on the road a bit this spring, after a long, long layoff, and there's no way I can climb like I did when I was 21 and I've lost the first step I used to have on the court, and it's probably never coming back because I'm 47, but even as an occasional club player I can chase down almost any ball that recreational players are hitting, and I can turn the pedals, and my doc doesn't think I'm fat or "obese." I'm down to a couple of lousy rackets and I just don't bother to have them weighted to a precise anything, and most folks just buy the rackets, often ones poorly suited to their games, but some amateurs, including folks who play some tourneys here and there, or play way down the collegiate pecking order, carry a bag full of matched rackets and like it that way. The fact is, for most club or park players or duffers, it really doesn't matter much that they're not using the right racket -- some people develop problems, and that's an issue, but most folks hit roughly the same shots they'd hit with a better stick. Maybe a little shorter, or they get tired a little earlier but they're not playing three sets of singles anyway, much less five, and not everyday, and there's no racket that will manufacture fundamentals for them, and if they're happy, what's the big deal?

[stevep]

ahh ya for sure. for example, lots of "hobby players" who suck are using the racquet Federer uses. its too heavy and too small and requires serious hand-eye and most people shouldn't be using it, however, they think they'll be as good as Federer.


i got a federer racket...f'in thing is defective.
2nd serves always go long.
any adjustments or it just defective?
think they'll warranty it?

[DarrenCT]

i got a federer racket...f'in thing is defective.
2nd serves always go long.
any adjustments or it just defective?
think they'll warranty it?

topspin and slice is the secret on 2nd serves.

u need a good tennis lesson imho :)

[DarrenCT]

Heck, how many thousands of those blue and black b'lat sticks have duffers consumed so that they can serve like Andy R? I'm not sure why anybody likes them, but there ya go.

eh those rod**** babolats are ok. more powerful than the federer racquet thats for sure.

do u still play tennis?

[stevep]

topspin and slice is the secret on 2nd serves.

u need a good tennis lesson imho :)


better racket i thk.

[DarrenCT]

better racket i thk.

steve, does yours have strings?

[benb]

Race bikes are raced.

If you haven't raced your Serotta it's not a race bike. If you haven't raced your Madone it's not a race bike, regardless of whether Contador/Levi/George rode it last summer.

Go enter a race.. then you can say you have a race bike.

Despite what the marketing departments at companies would tell you.. it has nothing to do with saddle to handlebar drop, frame material, cost, etc..

[flux]

.

[stevep]

steve, does yours have strings?

strings?

[djg]

eh those rod**** babolats are ok. more powerful than the federer racquet thats for sure.

do u still play tennis?

I get out maybe once a week still.

I'm sure the A-rod sticks are fine and that some folks really like them -- I tried a couple of the blue ones a year or so ago, and also tried the red ones, and it seemed to me strange that the tourney racket wasn't right in between the two, if that makes sense, but I'm probably not anybody's model customer.

[Peter P.]

refresh my memory atmo.

Quite a while ago I commented on a similar issue, saying you don't see your frames on the start lines these days. You claimed otherwise.

Back when you had a road team, it was certainly great advertising and lent weight to your frames being "successful" racing bikes. But, the market has changed. Fortunately and in an odd twist, the market changes INCREASED demand for your frames.

It IS sort of odd in that, while prices for your frames are comparable to what you could pay for today's aftermarket frames, they aren't in demand on the racing circuit. Of course, it's all due to the advertising of the current uber materials, which has pushed steel to the wayside, and certainly the long wait is an impediment to racers who want/need their frame for competition which is occuring in the same/coming season, not six seasons down the road.

[e-RICHIE]

Quite a while ago I commented on a similar issue, saying you don't see your frames on the start lines these days. You claimed otherwise.
i see as many on the start line(s) as i ever did.
ya' gotta go to the races to see this.
Back when you had a road team, it was certainly great advertising and lent weight to your frames being "successful" racing bikes. But, the market has changed. Fortunately and in an odd twist, the market changes INCREASED demand for your frames.
why is that odd? i'll assume folks that shop here
(and here - at serotta) want value, and don't want
to be made a this model year and this era's material
*** out of by the mainstream industry makers.
It IS sort of odd in that, while prices for your frames are comparable to what you could pay for today's aftermarket frames, they aren't in demand on the racing circuit.
how do you know that? i have orders, and i make
road frames. there's a good demand here atmo.

Of course, it's all due to the advertising of the current uber materials, which has pushed steel to the wayside, .
hmm. steel has been pushed to the wayside.
i did not know that.
and certainly the long wait is an impediment to racers who want/need their frame for competition which is occuring in the same/coming season, not six seasons down the road.
there's a few folks smart enough to realize that time
passes, and while they may have brand T now, and/or
brand C in a year or two, if they forcast their wants and
needs judiciuosly, it will pass swiftly and someday a
brand A will be in the driveway atmo.

[DarrenCT]

True; Serottas are no longer "race" bikes. They're definitely marketed to the deep pocket types. I see too many with extended head tube/hybrid bike lookin.....................e-Richie's frames, but he took exception to that. I still say I'm right.

Peter Pan,

I'm taking offense to your ignorant comments. Why are you "stirring the pot"?

A custom Serotta is made for the buyer to be comfortable. An extended head tube or not, as long as the frame fits and the buyer is comfortable, who the hell cares?

Better yet, why are you so concerned?

BTW, "I still say I'm right". This is something that a 4rth grader would say.

-d.

[Fixed]

bro peter serotta is goin to have something new both of us will like soon
like your p.b.p. bike
cheers

[J.Greene]

i
any bike you enter in a race becomes a race bike

Rocket Science?

JG

[chrisroph]

Hmmm, before I sold my legend, I raced it a bunch and it seemed fine. I led a teammate out to a state crit championship on it and it felt like a real nice race bike.

I also raced my erichie cross bike many times this year and it didn't seem to slow me down very much. If I had good legs, it did well. If I had bad legs, it did poorly. At all times I feel I have an advantage on it because it handles so well and it always feels like a race bike.

[swoop]

i wish i had the foresight and patience to have ordered a sachs to race on. man.... that would have elevated my game so much. i woulda been inspired by the rig to train my balls off for it. it bums me out. i am bummed about it.

i remember doing a small training ride with some of the rabobank guys a few years ago... they were marveling at my merlin.... and man... their colnagos were thrashed to bits and all but unrideable in my book. i couldn't believe how beater the frames were. and they thought that the already passe' ti merlin was the dreamiest bike they'd seen. karsten kroon was perving it the whole time.

one of the great ironies of this sport is how many guys that do this for a living never really get to ride a really decent bike.

i guess the truth is out there. the kind of generalizations being made here in this thread seem a little underthunk. koolaid is tasty but it aint good.

[Sandy]

It seems foolish to believe that those like e-RICHIE, Dave Kirk, Tom Kellogg, Zank, and other steel builders that frequent this forum simply produce bikes that are part of the past and not worthy. Foolish because these builders have had many years within the industry observing, working, and participating in the development of steel as a bicycle frame material. They possess creativity and insight into what constitutes proper design and fit, and have the remarkable ability to build steel bikes which clearly not only possess structural integrity but are aesthetically beautiful. In addition, those who purchase said bikes appear to have great joy and satisfaction in riding them. These 1 or 2 man operations produce a remarkably small amount of the totality of bicycles produced, but are nevertheless held rightfully in high esteem. As "they get it"- They know what a proper fit is, correct bicycle design, and they have the experience, insight, and ability to build a bike accordingly. Some of the above simply build all their bikes out of steel, which makes a wonderful frame and fork material.

On the other hand, it seems just as foolish to portray all the newer frame materials and designs to be inferior to that which are produced by the aforementioned builders. Changes occur, sometimes for the better or sometimes for the worse, but certainly not always for the worse. Innovations in frame/fork materials, and modes of production, design, and fit occur in a dynamic manner. As one should not belittle the above steel builders, one should also not do so to carbon or carbon/ti builders.

Serotta seems to possess the extraordinary ability to produce a varying array of bikes- carbon, titanium, steel, and carbon/ti which are extremely well designed, demonstrate innovation in material applications, are built possessing both wonderful structural integrity and look and ride great too. Serotta, of course, is not a one or two person company, but still a very small part of the bike industry.

Great builders build great bikes. Whether that be steel or ti or carbon or.....The past has its place as does the future. The little builder or the intermediate and even the big boys like Trek all have their place and should be respected for what they produce.

Some people like strawberry ice cream. Some like chocolate, and some like vanilla. They all taste good. They all are good.


Chocolate Fudge Sandy

[jpw]

I don't like this thread. It takes the fun out of cycling.

[Ti Designs]

I don't like this thread. It takes the fun out of cycling.

Ah, I see the problem. This thread or anything else on the internet has nothing to do with cycling. You can argue till the cows come home about what makes a race bike or tennis racket, but it's not going to change a thing when you get on a bike (we're talking real world bike, bidding on a bike on ebay isn't really "getting on a bike") and turn the pedals. Serotta makes bicycles, they don't make cycling - need I quote their catalog???

And for what it's worth, no cow has ever lived here so they shan't be coming home. Keep this thing flowing, it's interesting to see how people view bikes and cycling. And remember, if you're going to the Wayside (it's just off Rt 20 is Sudbury), take your steel bike - there's a place they've set aside just for you.

[93legendti]

I don't like this thread. It takes the fun out of cycling.

I don't understand the thread...

[Fixed]

it's something about a bike that races imho
cheers

[djg]

Quite a while ago I commented on a similar issue, saying you don't see your frames on the start lines these days. You claimed otherwise.



Dude, two things: first, it's a numbers game. Most treks are not raced, most looks are not raced, most colnagos are not raced, most specialized...eses are not raced, whatever. Small scale builders, as in one guy building frames one at a time, don't have a million bikes on the road, and if you ask about distributing some minority of somebody's production that gets raced here, there, and everywhere, yep, yer right, there are not likely to be many R. Sachs bikes lining up for some random Cat 4 crit in downer's grove, Illinois. I'm sure you'll see more in New England, but still.

Second, it's another kind of numbers game. There are folks who can and do drop real coin on a race bike. Walk away from the serious pro ranks to look at domestic amateurs who spend their own money, and you'll see some high end "pro" bikes, no doubt about it. You might notice them over all the others. But look a little more and you'll notice that most rigs are cheaper -- like, 2k bikes, and even cheaper ones, not 3 or 4 or 5 or 6k frames. That's because lots of racers are younger and maybe budget constrained now in a way they won't be in the future, or are just finding things a little tight for any of the many reasons folks do. So if you look back up at the first reason, and then consider that most of what gets lined up are less expensive frames, then once again, you shouldn't expect to see a hundred richies lining up at the local crit. It doesn't mean that they are not, or cannot be, race bikes.

So I'll make you a bet: pick two consecutive weekends this spring; find a race within a two and a half hour drive of Washington, DC each weekend. Bring me a Sachs and your choice of uber-light-stiff material race bike. I'll send you my measurements. I like record, but I'm happy to ride centaur for the purposes of the bet. I'll bring wheels. I'll race your choice one weekend and the Sachs the other weekend. If I do better on your choice, I'll give you fifty bucks, a personal tour of an independent administrative agency, and a deluxe meal in the federal cafeteria in that agency. If I don't, I get to keep the bikes. I promise to try really hard each time.

[saab2000]

My CSI and my Look 381 are similarly sized bikes that put me into a similar position. One is a race bike and one frankly is not. Difference? Handling.

I can take the Look through turns and the minute shift of weight and thought sends the bike exactly where it needs to be. I do not have the same confidence in the handling of the CSI.

I really really wish the CSI handled better, because it's clearly a better looking frameset and classic and all, but it just doesn't cut it WRT the knife-edge handling a race bikes should have. Not a bad bike, but not a racer.

[Fixed]

I'll take that old junk csi bro if you don't like it anymore
we are the same size i could trade you my beloved merckx corsa 753 tubing
you'd like it i'm sure
cheers

[saab2000]

I'll take that old junk csi bro if you don't like it anymore
we are the same size i could trade you my beloved merckx corsa 753 tubing
you'd like it i'm sure
cheers


CSI is going nowhere yet! It is eye candy! :D Plus, it's a nice bike for the long Sunday afternoon LSD rides. Too nice a bike to not keep, but not a race bike for me at least.

[Peter P.]

i see as many on the start line(s) as i ever did.
ya' gotta go to the races to see this.

Do I have to read between the lines on this one?- "I see as many on the start line(s) as I ever did." Well; "as I ever did" could be zero, no? Maybe we're going to different races, but I'm not seeing them, and it's not to disrespect your work, I'm just saying racers are looking to what's current and popular, and steel ain't it.

why is that odd? i'll assume folks that shop here
(and here - at serotta) want value, and don't want
to be made a this model year and this era's material
*** out of by the mainstream industry makers.

The demographics of who's buying custom steel frames has changed. Or better yet; the demographics of who's buying YOUR custom steel frames (the same could be said of Serotta, too) has changed. It's no longer the starving, 20-something guy who chases the race circuit every weekend. It's the hedge fund managers, doctors, lawyers, college professors, etc., who want to "put a Rolex between their legs". Racers don't want "value"; they want performance, and they WILL chase this year's material if they see it in the peloton or it gets reviews in Bicycling that promise to shave your TT time.

how do you know that? i have orders, and i make
road frames. there's a good demand here atmo.

Of course you have orders, and YES, you DO make road frames. And I'm glad you have a good demand with an income which is virtually guaranteed for at least the next six years. Most of us here can't be sure we'll be employed in six years. But from what I see, it's not racers buying your frames. Don't consider this a slight; it doesn't matter WHO you sell to. All that matters is there IS a market for the product you offer and you're fortunate to be able to fill the demand-that's capitalism. It's no coincidence that Steve Levine is opening another of his boutique Signature Cycles shops in Greenwich CT-not exactly a racing hotbed, eh?

hmm. steel has been pushed to the wayside.
i did not know that.

I'll bet you less than 10 percent of frames at the amateur races are steel. It's certainly true in the pro ranks, as well as the top domestic amateur realm.

there's a few folks smart enough to realize that time
passes, and while they may have brand T now, and/or
brand C in a year or two, if they forcast their wants and
needs judiciuosly, it will pass swiftly and someday a
brand A will be in the driveway atmo.

Racers don't look that far down the road. They probably only look one season ahead regarding what equipment they need/want to replace for the upcoming season, what team they will be affiliated with, what shortcomings became apparent this year that they want to address during the off-season. They can't even tell you if they'll be racing in six years.

I'll say this again if I haven't been clear yet: While companies like Serotta and Sachs DO make RACE-WORTHY bikes, their biggest customers are not racers. I'll concede that Serotta does have a foot still in the door because they're offering titanium and carbon fiber and if they didn't do that then Ben would be selling the same number of frames you do, but if they don't continue to have a presence in the racing scene, they will lose credibility and market share because racing gives the product credibility, even if us wiser folks already know better. As for the custom steel business (You Richard, included), it's customer base has changed. Not necessarily for the worse, it's just different, and at least as far as Serotta is concerned, it's reflected in the design of many of their bikes.

[Peter P.]

Peter Pan,

I'm taking offense to your ignorant comments. Why are you "stirring the pot"?

Don't take offense Darren; I have an opinion and I'm expressing it. I think Serotta, and Richard Sachs, both make a great product. It's merely my contention that Serotta customer base is not predominantly racers anymore. If they stayed wholly committed to steel frames, you sure can bet they'd have lost what little of the racing scene they captured. It's no doubt a marketing move that got them into carbon and titanium so that they could "maintain a presence" in racing frames, or rather frames worthy of being raced. See my reply to Richard for more.

A custom Serotta is made for the buyer to be comfortable. An extended head tube or not, as long as the frame fits and the buyer is comfortable, who the hell cares?

I'm merely responding to Sandy's original post. He no doubt posted here to seek others' opinions on what he's heard.

Better yet, why are you so concerned?

Again, see Sandy's original post.



BTW, "I still say I'm right". This is something that a 4rth grader would say.

What I'm saying is, my opinion has changed from the first time Richard replied to my comment on an earlier thread, some time ago.

[coylifut]

they will lose credibility and market share because racing gives the product credibility, even if us wiser folks already know better.

if I'm hearing you right, you are saying the mass weekend warrior racing public, who are not part of the wiser folks, don't see Serotta as a maker of race bikes? If they are not part of the wiser folk, why do we, or Serotta for that matter, care?

[kerrycycle]

I hate to sound condescending, but a simple marketing lesson...

Like ANY product category (i.e. cars, electronics, clothing), cyclists can be separated into separate market setments. Bike brands can be segmented to cater to a category as well or a bike brand can serve multiple segments. In this case: racing, performance-oriented, Trialthlon, etc. Each of these buyer segments can be further segmented according to price, quality, finish. What is the market segment each brand is trying to serve? There are many strong opinions in this forum (thankfully for the sport of cycling!!!) that represent varied perceptions and market segments.

Serotta happens to target each market segment, but caters more to the affluent customer, the customer willing to spend more for custom geometry, ride quality, or finish. Serotta holds a certain place in the market place and has the reputation to match it and the quality to sustain it.

Personally, I'm a racer who likes to go fast and trains every day. I like very aggressive geometry & do not ride Brook's saddles or use leather bar tape. However, I respect the varied opinions of this forum and have learned much from you that I can apply on a regular basis.

So what is my point? Each of us (and our opinions) represent the perspective of a market segment.