Bad Purchase Experience...

[oldguy00]

Wanted to get some advice/comments from the folks here...

I recently purchased a new frameset from a fairly well known bike store that also does mail order. It is a frame that comes with frame/fork/headset/seatpost all together.
So the frame arrives.

First issue, they sent the wrong size seat post. This brand of frame has a different size seatpost for its larger sizes, 31.6. I had a smaller size which takes their 27.2 post....but they sent the 31.6 post.
Call them about it, and they arrange for the North American distributor to send me the right one directly.
So proceed to start assembling the rest of the bike. My LBS is putting the DA front derailleur on, pretty standard stuff, braze on....tightening it on and we hear 'snap'.....the bottom of the hanger cracked. The mechanic was as shocked as I was! I couldn't get mad at him as I was watching him, and its not as though he was over tightening from what I could tell....
So the part is replaceable, and I call the NA distributor, and they take my Visa # and charge me $30 and say they'll send it to me. Not sure if I should have offered to pay or not, but whatever. That was 10 days ago, neither the post or the hanger have arrived yet...

So then we decide to still hang the other parts on it, put the chain on (knowing that we wouldn't actually tune the fd since it couldn't be tightened). We proceed to put a rear wheel in, and find that you have to loosen off the qr nut a -long- ways in order to get it past the area between the end of the chainstay and the top of the rear derailleur.....
Once it was in, we noticed it was off center. Took the wheel out, took the tire off, and checked the dish, perfect. Tried another wheel anyway, same result. The wheels would essentially point off to the left (ie. not just 'shifted' to the left like if it were out of dish).
We then looked closely from behind, and it was pretty obvious that the rear derailleur hanger angled inward. We then also put some campy alignment cups in and confirmed the misalignment. So the wheel won't sit straight in the frame. The hanger isn't bent, nor was there any damage to the shipping box....it simply angles inward, perhaps a defect when everything was glued together...I have no idea...

I contacted the shop, which claims on their web page to have a 60 day money back guarantee. They say it is a warranty issue, and they need to contact the distributor. I said I didn't think it was a warranty issue since it was a new frame that has never been used, and is simply defective. I say I want a refund, he says no, he has to talk to the distributor.
I then called Visa, and they said I need to wait 30 days from returning it, then they can possibly reverse the charge.

So the frame has never been built, the shop hasn't given me an authorization #, and their latest email to me basically said "sorry for the trouble, we'll call the distributor and they'll contact you....".

Should I not be pissed?!

BTW, I was very polite the entire time on the phone, even at the end of our conversation. Never got mad once, as I figured it would only make it worse. But yeah, I'm pissed!

[Lifelover]

Yuck! Sounds like you have a right to be very annoyed.

Tells us the details (shop and manufacture)!

If this ends badly for you than you should warn others.

If they handle it correctly, than we should know that as well.

[oldguy00]

Yuck! Sounds like you have a right to be very annoyed.

Tells us the details (shop and manufacture)!

If this ends badly for you than you should warn others.

If they handle it correctly, than we should know that as well.


I don't want to post the info at the moment, since I am still wanting to resolve it one way or another. If anyone really wants to know, they can PM me. But it is not a garbage brand like Serotta......just kidding!!! :)
It is a $2800 frame.

Not sure if you can see the angle of the hanger and rd (new DA rd) in this pic:

[Pete Serotta]

If you liked the frame - tell the seller you want to return "this one" and get another one".

If you do not like the frame and want you money back - do as you did and call VISA - put a hold on charge (I am sure it has posted by now) and there is no need to wait 30 days. Also at this time send a letter to shop and copy VISA saying that it was defective out of the box (give your shop name and contact) and you want them to have the shipper pick up. Or be generous and pay for return shipping (which you might have to anyway).

Let us know how you make out.

Clearly the distributor is not being much help and you might want to talk to them again if you like the frame enough to want another try at it. IF not then it is really between you and the seller . Do not get them mixed up in the return of your funds though. That is between you and the seller (with VISA of course)

[KJMUNC]

Sounds like you have every right to be pissed and get a refund, ASAP. If this bike shop really is a legitimate dealer they should take the bike back and handle the return with the manufacturer. If you bought a shirt or pair of pants and realized when you got home they had a defect the store wouldn't make you wait while they called the factory in China!

Kudos to you for remaining calm throughout the whole ordeal so far. I can't say I'd have maintained my cool.

Keep us posted and good luck!

[fierte_poser]

This is a great ad for everyone's LBS. ;)

When you deal with retailers hundreds/thousands of miles away, you are just another number. When things go wrong, even if you are in the right, its hard to get good customer service in this situation.

Sorry to hear about your struggles, but there is always risk in buying a frame/fork from a non-local retailer. Most of the time the low price is worth the risk. Sometimes not.

In other words, some days you are the pigeon, some days you are the statue.

[fierte_poser]

Wanted to get some advice/comments from the folks here...

I recently purchased a new frameset from a fairly well known bike store that also does mail order. It is a frame that comes with frame/fork/headset/seatpost all together.
So the frame arrives.

First issue, they sent the wrong size seat post. This brand of frame has a different size seatpost for its larger sizes, 31.6. I had a smaller size which takes their 27.2 post....but they sent the 31.6 post.
Call them about it, and they arrange for the North American distributor to send me the right one directly.
So proceed to start assembling the rest of the bike. My LBS is putting the DA front derailleur on, pretty standard stuff, braze on....tightening it on and we hear 'snap'.....the bottom of the hanger cracked. The mechanic was as shocked as I was! I couldn't get mad at him as I was watching him, and its not as though he was over tightening from what I could tell....
So the part is replaceable, and I call the NA distributor, and they take my Visa # and charge me $30 and say they'll send it to me. Not sure if I should have offered to pay or not, but whatever. That was 10 days ago, neither the post or the hanger have arrived yet...

So then we decide to still hang the other parts on it, put the chain on (knowing that we wouldn't actually tune the fd since it couldn't be tightened). We proceed to put a rear wheel in, and find that you have to loosen off the qr nut a -long- ways in order to get it past the area between the end of the chainstay and the top of the rear derailleur.....
Once it was in, we noticed it was off center. Took the wheel out, took the tire off, and checked the dish, perfect. Tried another wheel anyway, same result. The wheels would essentially point off to the left (ie. not just 'shifted' to the left like if it were out of dish).
We then looked closely from behind, and it was pretty obvious that the rear derailleur hanger angled inward. We then also put some campy alignment cups in and confirmed the misalignment. So the wheel won't sit straight in the frame. The hanger isn't bent, nor was there any damage to the shipping box....it simply angles inward, perhaps a defect when everything was glued together...I have no idea...

I contacted the shop, which claims on their web page to have a 60 day money back guarantee. They say it is a warranty issue, and they need to contact the distributor. I said I didn't think it was a warranty issue since it was a new frame that has never been used, and is simply defective. I say I want a refund, he says no, he has to talk to the distributor.
I then called Visa, and they said I need to wait 30 days from returning it, then they can possibly reverse the charge.

So the frame has never been built, the shop hasn't given me an authorization #, and their latest email to me basically said "sorry for the trouble, we'll call the distributor and they'll contact you....".

Should I not be pissed?!

BTW, I was very polite the entire time on the phone, even at the end of our conversation. Never got mad once, as I figured it would only make it worse. But yeah, I'm pissed!

One question...why didn't your mechanic check the basic alignment of the frame before he started assembling the bike?

[ti_boi]

Don't get mad............................................... .................................................. ...................................get a Serotta. :beer:

[oldguy00]

If you liked the frame - tell the seller you want to return "this one" and get another one".

If you do not like the frame and want you money back - do as you did and call VISA - put a hold on charge (I am sure it has posted by now) and there is no need to wait 30 days. Also at this time send a letter to shop and copy VISA saying that it was defective out of the box (give your shop name and contact) and you want them to have the shipper pick up. Or be generous and pay for return shipping (which you might have to anyway).

Let us know how you make out.

Clearly the distributor is not being much help and you might want to talk to them again if you like the frame enough to want another try at it. IF not then it is really between you and the seller . Do not get them mixed up in the return of your funds though. That is between you and the seller (with VISA of course)

Thanks Pete. I did explain it to the person at Visa, that it was a brand new item and defective, but they claimed that the retailer has 30 days to rectify the situation before Visa will cancel the charge. Yes, the charge posted when they originally ordered the frame for me at the beginning of October..

[oldguy00]

One question...why didn't your mechanic check the basic alignment of the frame before he started assembling the bike?

After the fd hanger cracked, we never really got around to doing a formal build. Especially after we couldn't get the rear wheel in. I guess you could say that was the first alignment check...
Do most shops put every new frame on an alignment table to check before they start building?!

[gdw]

Most shops don't have alignment table anymore.

[fierte_poser]

The mechanic could use a Park DAG-1 Derailleur alignment guide to check alignment. All you would need is a wheel to put in the dropouts. No derailleur, chain, bb, or crankset need be installed first.

http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=39

Also, I would expect a competent bike mechanic to check the facing of the headtube and the bb shell before building up a multi thousand dollar frameset.

No alignment table needed.

[Pete Serotta]

Thanks Pete. I did explain it to the person at Visa, that it was a brand new item and defective, but they claimed that the retailer has 30 days to rectify the situation before Visa will cancel the charge. Yes, the charge posted when they originally ordered the frame for me at the beginning of October..

Talk to the supervisor...tell them you want it done now and to send you the paper work required (that is post stop payment). Mention you have had talks with the merchant already. Do not worry, once you get your statement you can do it and still not lay out a cent.

It is already better to deal with the merchant - so send him a "certified letter return receipt " and say you want an RA ## for returning and it "was defective on delivery". (this will then be included in VISA letter). Hopefully the merchant is at least 50 miles from your home (yeah they have some quirks in rules)

Good luck.

[oldguy00]

Just spoke to Visa again...
I need to write a detailed letter, include photos of the item and defects, include a copy of the shipping receipt back to them, any correspondence with them, and the return policy as stated on their website....and then Visa will investigate.

[Peter P.]

" We proceed to put a rear wheel in, and find that you have to loosen off the qr nut a -long- ways in order to get it past the area between the end of the chainstay and the top of the rear derailleur....."

I too, had this happen with a custom steel frame. I would up grinding down the diameter of the qr nut. I also saw it occur on some Mongoose titanium frames with Shimano Ultegra hubs/qr's. In both cases it was obviously poor design.

Most shops wouldn't check alignment on a frame of that price level. Certain things you take for granted.

The other thing that roils me is the shop is not behaving as if they are responsible to you after the sale. They aren't taking any action; they're "putting you in touch with the distributor" stuff. Once the disconnect between you and the shop is made by pawning responsibility onto the distributor, it's harder to hold someone's feet to the fire. You're on the right track witholding payment and working with Visa. I'd call the shop every day and speak to the manager. If you annoy them enough they'll refund your money just to make you go away. Unfortunately, that's sometimes what you have to do to get things done.

I feel for ya. Please report back when this is all wrung out. Personally, I'd try to get a refund and look elsewhere.

[oldguy00]

Here are pics of the issue with putting the rear wheel in. I can't help but think either I'm missing something, or they've put the wrong hanger on the frame, etc., because it is pretty much impossible to get a rear wheel in without completely backing off the nut.

If you look at the pic, you can see the hub axle hitting the top of the drop out, and the skewer nut hitting the rear derailleur, thus it jams, won't go in...

What the hell am I missing here???

[ti_boi]

Look man....you should seriously send this thing back....get your money...and support the good people of SEROTTA who build one hell of a frame.

[oldguy00]

Look man....you should seriously send this thing back....get your money...and support the good people of SEROTTA who build one hell of a frame.

I'm trying to arrange that. I spoke to the general manager at the store at lunch time today, and he hasn't gotten back to me with any info...

I'm giving it until Monday for the dealer to let me know whether or not to send it to them, or directly to the importer, and if they don't get back to me by then with a suitable response, then I'll just send it to the store, and move forward with my Visa case.......major f'ing pain in the ass.

For all that have asked, it is an Isaac Impulse.

[Peter P.]

What's frightening is, I tried to find the Isaac web site and had no luck.

I have no experience with their product so I can't criticize it.

Suggesting a Serotta as an alternative is nice but even the Fierte Carbon and HSG models are over $4k so I'd expect higher quality. Heck; I'd expect higher quality from their Heritage collection and I'm sure I'd get it. If not, I'm sure to get the customer service to make things right. And I wouldn't have to bypass the dealer to get that service.

I briefly checked Excel Sports web site; they've got Cervelo Soloist Carbon frames going for $2400-$400 cheaper and I can honestly say I've received stellar customer service from them.

[Chief]

.

[oldguy00]

Is the hanger by chance installed upside down? :confused:

nope, it lines up pretty specifically with grooves. There wouldn't be any other way to put it on...

[Chief]

nope, it lines up pretty specifically with grooves. There wouldn't be any other way to put it on...

OK, just a thought or lack thereof.

[Chief]

nope, it lines up pretty specifically with grooves. There wouldn't be any other way to put it on...

OK, just a thought or lack thereof.

[rspecker]

But actually it has reinforced for me why my next bike with be another Serotta. They take care of their customers.

If it's a price issue, I'd still rather have a Heritage than a lightweight carbon bike made to poor standards.

But seriously I hope you get it all worked out. We've all been there with a purchase that wasn't right from the beginning. My view is that you should never accept a repair in that case--you will never be in love with the product again anyway so you don't get what you paid for. These things are supposed to be fun!

[Chief]

Isaac's dropouts show exquisite attention to detail:

http://www.velonews.com/photo/32495

Note button skewer nut.

[Satellite]

The mechanic could use a Park DAG-1 Derailleur alignment guide to check alignment. All you would need is a wheel to put in the dropouts. No derailleur, chain, bb, or crankset need be installed first.

http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=39

Also, I would expect a competent bike mechanic to check the facing of the headtube and the bb shell before building up a multi thousand dollar frameset.

No alignment table needed.

fierte_poser,

If the frame is out of alignment the derailleur hanger, alignment check won't be of any use. Because the rear wheel doesn’t sit parallel with the bottom bracket head tube line. Most frames even cheap ones no longer need reamed, faced and chased old skool style. It was already mentioned that the dish of the wheel was correct the frame was wacky and confirmed with the drop out alignment tool.

Oldguy00,

Your mechanic did everything I would have done and in the same order. Except my mechanic would have been working with Ti :banana: because I don't like Plastic :no:

Happy hunting I am sure Visa will be your solution they have never let me down yet.

Satellite

[paulandmonster]

http://www.isaac-carbon.info/1.0.html?&L=1 hope this helps

[Sandy]

Your very first statement was the following after the one line introduction-

"I recently purchased a new frameset from a fairly well known bike store..." The problems are between you and the bike store, not the company who built the frameset. You should be talking to the bike shop which should be in turn talking to the company who built the frameset. The bike store is responsble to solve the problem to you satisfaction. You are complicating it all and adding stress and time involvement by contacting the builder.

I would say that you address all issues with whom you bought the bike. Give them a final time to solve the problem, and then insist upon your money back (which is what I believe you are doing) if they fail to satisfy you. Buy your next frameset from a different bikeshop and buy a different builder's frameset when you do. The shop clearly has failed you and has not assumed its obvious resposibility. It is the bike shop's responsibility to interact with the builder. It is also the bike shop's problem , and not yours, if they do not receive an adequate response form the builder.

If you buy a new car and you have service problems, who do you take it to?- not to the manufacturer but to the service department where you bought the car.


Studebaker Sandy

[oldguy00]

Your very first statement was the following after the one line introduction-

"I recently purchased a new frameset from a fairly well known bike store..." The problems are between you and the bike store, not the company who built the frameset. You should be talking to the bike shop which should be in turn talking to the company who built the frameset. The bike store is responsble to solve the problem to you satisfaction. You are complicating it all and adding stress and time involvement by contacting the builder.
Studebaker Sandy

I agree entirely. I'm not the one who tried to involve the importer, it was the store that put them in direct contact with me, originally in order to facilitate the quick delivery of the proper seatpost......which never has arrived....

I have emailed the store sales manager again, letting him know that I have a complete paper trail, pictures, etc., and a case opened with Visa, and will be opening a case with Florida BBB if they do not refund my money next week when the frame arrives. I shipped it back to their store as he wouldn't even get back to me with an RA number.... :crap:

BTW, I know there are a lot of cases where people come on here complaining about a particular shop, but once the shop responds with their side of the story, it becomes clear that the original poster didn't give all the facts....
That is not the case here. And when this is all resolved one way or another and I post the name of the shop, I happily invite any employee there to come on here and dispute anything I've posted...and to point out anything they feel I've left out, which is nothing..

[flickwet]

Don't get mad............................................... .................................................. ...................................get a Serotta. :beer:
Notice Pete stepped up to help, didn't have to, cool

[Idris Icabod]

Hey Oldguy,

I am watching this case and hoping that it gets sorted to your satisfaction. Any update?

[ti_boi]

http://www.isaac-carbon.info/1.0.html?&L=1 hope this helps

Good Luck sorting this out. :beer:

[oldguy00]

Thanks for asking. The sales manager that I spoke with on the phone won't return my emails or issue me an RA (return Auth) number, so I shipped the frame back to them anyway via courier on Friday, due to arrive there in the next couple of days. I also went ahead and called the importer to explain the situation, that they might hear from the shop, that I was looking for a refund from the shop and nothing from them (importer), etc.
Went ahead and opened a case with Visa, and also with the Central Florida Better Business Bureau.
My hope is that once they have the frame they will just go ahead and refund my purchase. Otherwise I'll have to push Visa and BBB to resolve it.
I'll post whatever happens.

[TACSTS]

If this retailer is who I think they are, I've had an ordeal in the past with them. Wasn't something as large as a frame, just some rims and some random rim tape or something, but definitely left a sour taste in my mouth for them, and I steer clear of them now.

Best of luck. Be persistant, you'll get your money back.

[oldguy00]

It is Glory Cycles in Orlando. The frame is arriving there today. The manager has not responded to any of my emails. Visa has my paperwork, but say they won't be able to get to it for probably another week.......what a pain in the arse......Again, I'm hoping they will actually do a '180' and refund my money like they should, but somehow I doubt it...

[R2D2]

I quit dealing with Glory some time ago as I'd never had a succesful order.
Slow,backorders and items never showing up.

[Keith A]

It would be interesting if one of our Orlando forum members walked into their shop and said something like "I read on-line about how you are handling the return of a screwed up frame." I wonder if this would make the situation better...or worse.

BTW, thanks for posting the name of the shop. I'll certainly avoid doing any business with them.

[Pete Serotta]

yes, good shops, as well as bad, should be known....this is one of the values of our family.

[oldguy00]

It would be interesting if one of our Orlando forum members walked into their shop and said something like "I read on-line about how you are handling the return of a screwed up frame." I wonder if this would make the situation better...or worse.


For the time being, I'd rather no one does this. I'm still hoping o resolve it one way or another. But I'm not impressed with their communication to me, to say the least.......I'll certainly let everyone know how it turns out. Keeping my fingers crossed..

Pic of the wheel pointing off, and a pic of the uneven paint on the frame (intentional?):

[Idris Icabod]

Will you try to source an Isaac from a different dealer? I saw that Txcyclesport.com sells them and has very reasonable prices (better than Glory). Are you done with Isaac as a company? I am interested in your feedback with regards your dealings with the manufacturer rather than the shop, I know that the shop tried to palm you off on to the US distributor initially but I could see how that may not pan out given that an importer will generally only deal with a shop but in your case the shop is pi$$ poor.

The limited reviews I have read on line about Isaac has all been very positive, a Serotta forum review would be very helpful to me on a very selfish level.

[oldguy00]

Will you try to source an Isaac from a different dealer? I saw that Txcyclesport.com sells them and has very reasonable prices (better than Glory). Are you done with Isaac as a company? I am interested in your feedback with regards your dealings with the manufacturer rather than the shop, I know that the shop tried to palm you off on to the US distributor initially but I could see how that may not pan out given that an importer will generally only deal with a shop but in your case the shop is pi$$ poor.

The limited reviews I have read on line about Isaac has all been very positive, a Serotta forum review would be very helpful to me on a very selfish level.

Well, I haven't dealt with 'Isaac' per say, but I've spoken to a couple of the folks at Oschner Imports, and they seemed very nice. Unfortunately it is Glory Cycles that has my money.
I too saw all positive reviews on Isaac bikes, which helped me decide in the first place. Even if I could get another frame that was properly aligned, I think the design which makes it very difficult to get a rear wheel in might steer me away from them....But then maybe that was just a problem with this particular frame as well...hard to say.

[Keith A]

So is the Impulse being dropped from the Isaac line? I don't see it listed in their 2009 road bikes.

[oldguy00]

So is the Impulse being dropped from the Isaac line? I don't see it listed in their 2009 road bikes.

If you look closely at the specs for the 2009 lineup, it looks like the Sonic was renamed to 'UltraSonic', the Impulse was renamed to 'Sonic'....

[wc1934]

Sounds like you are getting the run-around - wonder if a call to the better business bureau would be of any help - can't believe that you have kept your cool - I would be threatening to call my attorney.
PS - I have purchased a few items from Glory cycles. One needed a return/adjustment and they were very, very pleasant to deal with - guy named Ti or something like that - granted the return was an item under 20 dollars, but I was impressed non the less.

[Ken Robb]

[QUOTE=wc1934]Sounds like you are getting the run-around - wonder if a call to the better business bureau would be of any help - can't believe that you have kept your cool - I would be threatening to call my attorney.

My attorney bills $500 an hour. How many calls can you afford for a bike frame? Of course threats are free. :)

Around SoCal this might be a Small Claims Court issue.

[Minstrie]

I've had good and bad experiences with Glory. Whenever I can contact Clive, it's gone good. Otherwise, bad. His email is clive@glorycycles.com, last interaction I had....
Minstrie.

[gemship]

Sorry for your frustration dealing with this, I'm sure you would be willing to have a replacement frame if it were possible and the dealer were willing to handle things appropriately.Of course after following this thread for a few days I could see you maybe simply wanting your money back at this point and getting something different from someone else. You know I must say 2800$ is a lot of money to spend for a dream bike/frame sight unseen. Having said that I believe there are plenty of great deals at the lbs. on new left overs. Last Sept. I bought a Cervelo r3sl frame,fork,seatpost,headset that normally retails for 3600$ for 2200$ at my lbs. on condition I buy all the components for the build thru them and they built it free of charge. I still spent 5200$ for a complete bike but I had the chance to see this bike take shape and new what I was getting and I believe I got a awesome deal with out the mysteries that come from mail order. Stories like this make me leery of mail order and kind of wonder why bother? Maybe just to be the only one around with a Issac?

[SoCalSteve]

I've had good and bad experiences with Glory. Whenever I can contact Clive, it's gone good. Otherwise, bad. His email is clive@glorycycles.com, last interaction I had....
Minstrie.

Me too. Good and bad...They are NOT my favorite online bike store to do business with...Excel is far superior (as are many others)...

So sorry that this happened to you. I do hope that Glory makes good on the $$$ and that you get a bike that you are truly happy with.

Steve

[SoCalSteve]

Sorry for your frustration dealing with this, I'm sure you would be willing to have a replacement frame if it were possible and the dealer were willing to handle things appropriately.Of course after following this thread for a few days I could see you maybe simply wanting your money back at this point and getting something different from someone else. You know I must say 2800$ is a lot of money to spend for a dream bike/frame sight unseen. Having said that I believe there are plenty of great deals at the lbs. on new left overs. Last Sept. I bought a Cervelo r3sl frame,fork,seatpost,headset that normally retails for 3600$ for 2200$ at my lbs. on condition I buy all the components for the build thru them and they built it free of charge. I still spent 5200$ for a complete bike but I had the chance to see this bike take shape and new what I was getting and I believe I got a awesome deal with out the mysteries that come from mail order. Stories like this make me leery of mail order and kind of wonder why bother? Maybe just to be the only one around with a Issac?

I will respectfully disagree with you. The original poster knew what he was buying (I am sure he did his research). The fact that the bike frame was defective is not a "mail order " thing. Its a defective bike. It could have come through any number of channels and STILL had been defective.

If you do your due diligence, mailorder is a great way to buy bikes, bike components and bike parts...I cannot tell you how many times I've gone into my LBS and they did not have what I was looking for....Excel did (or any number of other mail order houses I do business with) and usually it arrives within 3 days of ordering, no fuss-no muss.

I hope the OP gets satisfaction and gets the bike of his dreams (whether it be mail order or not).

Steve

[gemship]

I will respectfully disagree with you. The original poster knew what he was buying (I am sure he did his research). The fact that the bike frame was defective is not a "mail order " thing. Its a defective bike. It could have come through any number of channels and STILL had been defective.

If you do your due diligence, mailorder is a great way to buy bikes, bike components and bike parts...I cannot tell you how many times I've gone into my LBS and they did not have what I was looking for....Excel did (or any number of other mail order houses I do business with) and usually it arrives within 3 days of ordering, no fuss-no muss.

I hope the OP gets satisfaction and gets the bike of his dreams (whether it be mail order or not).

Steve


well I agree with what you say but in regards to a big money purchase like the op's frame mail order leaves chance which may lead to a frustrating outcome but you're right and chance we may for those good deals. I guess I was just lucky enough to get my dreambike locally. For what its worth I do buy on Ebay from time to time and do so with the assurance of good feedback and selling history of the seller and in a case of a frame I would be more apt to buy one from those I can have some earned respect from, say email or phone correspondance with the builder. Just something that tells me they care and we're doing things right the first time. Not to mention the most important and often said value of a frame that fits. Heck even I took a chance with the frame right in front of my eyes that it would fit right but if it didn't I'm sure we would of worked something out that I just wouldn't want to deal with thru mail order. Just saying... you take a big chance, then again we live in a day of the age 3k isn't a lot for a high end bike to many folks out there.

Seems to me things will do work out just fine, it'll just take time to sort out. While I don't think the dealer is handling there end well I feel for them too, I mean how often does a circumstance like this occur and are they really supposed to just eat it automatically. We're only getting one side of the story.

[itsalldark]

Support your local bike shop------not mail order!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SoCalSteve]

Support your local bike shop------not mail order!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sorry, I truly dont see why...They never have what I need in stock, their prices are usually above retail, the sales people know less than I do about whats going on the "real world" of cycling and bicycles and the service departments are usually a big ol' joke-expensive and I end up re-doing whatever they did again anyway (or have to take it back to them cuz they did it wrong the first time)...

But, this is just one man's opinion...You may have a great bike store locally to you...It seems that in Los Angeles, this is surely NOT the case.

Steve

[oldguy00]

Guys,
I support my lbs's all the time, but when it comes to actual bikes/frames, it is a limited selection (ie. Giant).

[Sam in VA]

I'm sorry, I truly dont see why...They never have what I need in stock, their prices are usually above retail, the sales people know less than I do about whats going on the "real world" of cycling and bicycles and the service departments are usually a big ol' joke-expensive and I end up re-doing whatever they did again anyway (or have to take it back to them cuz they did it wrong the first time)...

But, this is just one man's opinion...You may have a great bike store locally to you...It seems that in Los Angeles, this is surely NOT the case.

Steve

I say support your local bike shop, but only if they support you. It sounds as if your LBS isn't meeting your needs. Do you have the kuxury of another shop in the area? I'd much rather keep my money local, and the support of a good shop is worth tons more than the savings of a few bucks. My LBS can get almost anything in a few days at a reasonable price. You might ask if they can get what you need, and don't be afraid to quibble on price, especially if its above retail. All of the shops in my area give a discount to members of local bike clubs.
Good Luck,
Sam

[lemans003]

Dear oldguy00,

Good luck with this nightmare. I have had two bad experienced with Glory Cycles and will not support them in the future. I am very dedicated to my LBS and my local economy but the reality of limited selection also forces me to go through online retailers. Hence I understand why you purchased your Isaac online.

With that said...I have been looking at Isaacs for a while. The way they have been promoted and reviewed by some of cyclings online sources makes Isaac sound like they have a great design concept and that the Ultrasonic and Sonic are outstanding frames.

Your post is very helpful. I do understand that defects are possible with any brand or product. But the lack of customer service from all parties in your case is not acceptable. Period! I have heard of defects from some top frame manufacturers including the French brand that I ride and in most cases, not all, the manufacturers' Customer Services Dept. steps up to the plate and makes due. In your case this is wrong!

I feel for you. This is not right...just from a ethics and integrity issue, not even to mention from a business perspective.

I deeply appreciate your honesty in his post. This has been one of the most informative threads I have read in a while. It has possibly saved me and others a lot of money and headache as I will now take Isaac off my list of possible frames for my stable.

I know my ranting doesn't help your cycling passion or your wallet, but know that your sharing helps the cycling community.

Good luck with this unfortunate situation.

May you soon be riding a stellar frame that will give you thousands of miles of satisfaction. YOU DESERVE IT!

[david]

the beauty of this world wide web thing is that it puts in the hands of consumers a degree of power that we previously didn't have.

i'm truly sorry for the trouble you are having.

but you have done me a service by notifying me about your bad experience with glory.

in fact, i was thinking of buying something from them just recently, but held back after reading about your difficulties with them.

you exercised your power to spread the word and i exercised my power to vote to take my business elsewhere.

too many retailers just don't seem to get that they can no longer afford to mistreat their customers. the word spreads too quickly and widely and the fallout is far more expensive than losing just one customer.

[SoCalSteve]

I say support your local bike shop, but only if they support you. It sounds as if your LBS isn't meeting your needs. Do you have the kuxury of another shop in the area? I'd much rather keep my money local, and the support of a good shop is worth tons more than the savings of a few bucks. My LBS can get almost anything in a few days at a reasonable price. You might ask if they can get what you need, and don't be afraid to quibble on price, especially if its above retail. All of the shops in my area give a discount to members of local bike clubs.Good Luck,
Sam

You'd be suprised that with the size of LA, how few bike stores there really are...and one is a chain that has a bunch of stores in the area.

They give me 15-20% off of their marked up retail pricing and in the end (with the 8.25% CA sales tax) its just not worth the hassles. Plus, and I mean this most honestly and humbly, it seems that I know more about the bike business than they do. I read about it, keep myself informed and just seem to know whats going on...They, on the other hand, seem to just want their commision and dont seem to care much about learning new stuff.

I can call a 800 number, get a salesperson from Excel or Colorado Cyclist on the phone and get a pretty informed answer...

For my purposes, bike stores really arent needed. And, dont get me started on the service departments! Geez, I build a bike much better than any of them...

Thats all, rant over.

Steve

[csm]

prices are above retail? how does that work?
if you bought from a local shop, it would be much easier to walk in and discuss it with them; buying mailorder, over the internet, etc makes you a number and easy to ignore.

[SoCalSteve]

prices are above retail? how does that work?if you bought from a local shop, it would be much easier to walk in and discuss it with them; buying mailorder, over the internet, etc makes you a number and easy to ignore.

Ok, lets start by saying that many items in Los Angeles bike stores are marked up above retail (unless there are 2 retails). I walked into a LBS close to work and on the counter they had a bunch of jars of Assos chamois cream...marked at $25.00. One example of hundreds.

Ok, second point, call Excel Sports some time and ask a hard bike question to one of their salespeople...They are very knowledgeable.

3rd point...if you call a mail order catalogue store like Excel, they do not ignore you, you are not a number and they do answer your questions.

[Minstrie]

Me too. Good and bad...They are NOT my favorite online bike store to do business with...Excel is far superior (as are many others)...

Steve


Agree. Excel, though not the lowest prices, is impeccable. Speedgoat almost as good, some offbeat road products, better prices if they've got what you want, free shipping for a lot of things (though restock fee if you send it back); Probikekit, great, but if you have to send something back to the UK, you're out shipping charges; TotalCycling, honorable-bought a great price wheelset but two front skewers, and after a few emails they sent the rear skewer and refunded my return shipping costs. JensenUSA is more mtb oriented, but have great prices on what road components they happen to have, and good customer service. Bought a whole lot of stuff from coloradocyclist in the past, but since they revamped the website a year or so ago I haven't been able to complete an order, and no response from customer service (I'm deaf, so email communications mean everything to me). Universalcycles, Cambriabike, good for some stuff (forks, triple cranks, unusual small parts), nothing dishonorable, average customer service . I got into a web store mentality in my mtb days living in a town with a roadie bike shop, hate paying sales tax, love doing everything myself, have a great LBS that I buy tubes from and direct newbies to. Back to the point of the OP, have you gotten any feedback from Clive at Glory? I think he's the owner, and has done right by me, though seems to have flunkies working for him.
Minstrie

[oldguy00]

Hi all, thought it was only fair I post a follow up.

Glory finally provided me a refund a week ago. I'm not sure why I had to wait so long, and they accused me of shipping the frame back to the wrong address (the address listed on their website for returns!!). Apparently they thought I should have shipped the frame directly to their distributor....

Interestingly, I received an email from the distributor this morning, stating that he though the frame was fine. Reinforcing how I will never again buy an Isaac, or anything from Glory. This was the email

**This issue is really between you and Glory Cycles. I received the frame back from Glory and to be quite honest, the only thing that was identifiable as a problem was the broken front derailleur hanger which I would attribute to improper installation of the front derailleur (over tightening). Glory had mentioned the issue regarding the rear triangle being out of alignment but that was not significant enough to be warrantable. If anything the dropout (because it is vertical) may need to be filed slightly to correct the very small offset of the rear wheel, that is not truly a warranty but rather a frame prep issue. Again, this is between you and Glory, but I would not say that this frame is "defective". **

[Keith A]

Glad to hear that you were able to receive a refund. It is also a interesting to see the official response from Isaac's distributor. From your picture, the rear wheel looked off by more than a "very small offset" to me, yet he thought just a little filing would take care of the problem :eek:

[BumbleBeeDave]

That's hilarious. It was all so obvious from the pics you posted.

BBD

[jbrainin]

Might explain why so many dealers who sold Isaac haven't handled them for a couple of years and are still stuck trying to ditch leftover inventory.

[Idris Icabod]

Thanks. Your experience helped me opt for a Look 585 instead.

[alancw3]

Isaac? definitely not on my buy list!

[morty]

Wow, statements like that really makes one appreciate even more the high level of quality workmanship put forth by our host and the many fine builders who frequent here. My Kirk was so perfect in every detail when I received it, it would be hard for me to ignore things like that with some off-the-shelf bikes.

Lucky for you to get out now before some other quality control problem arises (eg, while descending at 40 mph! :eek: ).

[Pete Serotta]

Really wonderful how Issac has a "personal" definition of what is defective. "drop might have to be filed". Those folks are having a going out of business illusion BUT IT IS TRUE> :D :D They are clueless to the marketplace and something called "customer satisfaction" > I would guess they have many repeat customers :p :p


**This issue is really between you and Glory Cycles. I received the frame back from Glory and to be quite honest, the only thing that was identifiable as a problem was the broken front derailleur hanger which I would attribute to improper installation of the front derailleur (over tightening). Glory had mentioned the issue regarding the rear triangle being out of alignment but that was not significant enough to be warrantable. If anything the dropout (because it is vertical) may need to be filed slightly to correct the very small offset of the rear wheel, that is not truly a warranty but rather a frame prep issue. Again, this is between you and Glory, but I would not say that this frame is "defective". **

[mikki]

Happy to hear you finally got your money back. And find his remarks hilariously defensive.

This is a "buyers beware" type of customer service. Even though times are really rough out there, a good business model would never try to get the last word like he did to make the customer "wrong"..

Scratch them off my list. Thanks for the update.

[Peter P.]

Thanks for the update. Glad you got your refund; I wonder how much the exposure of your plight on this forum persuaded Glory and the distributor to give your cash back. You're lucky; you could have been stuck with a lemon.

And Oschner's nonsense about the dropout-that's not a "prep" issue. Who knows if that dropout is out of kilter in more than one plane-then how do you "file" it properly? They are shirking their responsibility, too, probably because dealing with the overseas manufacturer is so difficult. These "layers" of distribution too often make it so difficult to get customer issues resolved in MANY markets, not just cycling. I see it in my job daily.

I highly suggest you consider an American frame even if it is from a big name like Specialized or Trek. I suspect you'll get better customer service. For what you paid for your Isaac, you could get a Calfee Tetra or Luna and have MUCH better quality control, customer support, and overall experience.

Please let us know what frame you choose as an alternative and how that experience goes.

[paulandmonster]

Dear Paul,



Thanks for your enquiry.



Having read through this with interest, I can't actually see where Isaac is specifically mentioned, but perhaps I missed something? If it is an Isaac then there has been no notification to Isaac of this case by the US distributor. Only when this happens can the necessary action be taken to rectify any problems. Isaac always attends to any problems very promptly upon notification.



It would seem that in this case there has been a coincidence of several negative issues coming together. Isaac takes quality very seriously, but no manufacturer can boast a 100% record in this respect. Problems with Isaac products are certainly very rare, and none of the issues mentioned are known to Isaac. For instance, no front mech hanger failures have ever been reported, nor any previous case of a mis-aligned drop out. Dealing directly with an LBS, rather than buying via mail-order, would have avoided many of the consequential problems mentioned in the thread.



We hope that you decide to purchase an Isaac bike. In order to provide full confidence, we would be willing to supply a frameset that has been thoroughly re-checked, by hand, prior to shipping. If this is of interest, or if you have further questions, please let us know.



Best regards,



David Palk

Isaac Technical Support

[SoCalSteve]

Dear Paul,



Thanks for your enquiry.



Having read through this with interest, I can't actually see where Isaac is specifically mentioned, but perhaps I missed something? If it is an Isaac then there has been no notification to Isaac of this case by the US distributor. Only when this happens can the necessary action be taken to rectify any problems. Isaac always attends to any problems very promptly upon notification.



It would seem that in this case there has been a coincidence of several negative issues coming together. Isaac takes quality very seriously, but no manufacturer can boast a 100% record in this respect. Problems with Isaac products are certainly very rare, and none of the issues mentioned are known to Isaac. For instance, no front mech hanger failures have ever been reported, nor any previous case of a mis-aligned drop out. Dealing directly with an LBS, rather than buying via mail-order, would have avoided many of the consequential problems mentioned in the thread.


We hope that you decide to purchase an Isaac bike. In order to provide full confidence, we would be willing to supply a frameset that has been thoroughly re-checked, by hand, prior to shipping. If this is of interest, or if you have further questions, please let us know.



Best regards,



David Palk

Isaac Technical Support

Thats SUCH BS!!!

The OP did take it to a bike store to have it built. I cannot see how buying the frame from a bike store rather than mail order would have changed the fact that the bike frame was defective out of the box...Now, the return issues are a different story.

Just sayin'

Steve

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . assuming what Paulandmonster has posted is the same letter that oldguy got. (Are they the same person?)

The manufacturer does not want to deal with a defective frame that they produced. Regardless of where the frame was purchased--LBS or from mail order--it still came from the Isaac factory and was defective. I fail to see how it is possible in any way that the rear frame misalignment and the bad paint is the fault of the seller, whether it be an LBS or mail-order dealer. The frame is defective and manufacturer will not make good. End of story, as far as I am concerned. I will make sure and stay far, far away from Isaac in any future purchases.

BBD

[oldguy00]

No, it is not the same person. My email was from the US importer, not Isaac directly.
For the record, the guys from Isaac could be the nicest guys in the world, I have no idea. My dealings were with the shop that sold me the frame, and the US Importer of the frame.

[Pete Serotta]

THere are many good to great brands out there and these folks are on borrowed time with that attitude. Glad you made out ok and I feel bad for the UK guys BUT they need to get the US IMPORTER to realize that they are not the only frame for sale. :D


No, it is not the same person. My email was from the US importer, not Isaac directly.
For the record, the guys from Isaac could be the nicest guys in the world, I have no idea. My dealings were with the shop that sold me the frame, and the US Importer of the frame.

[Idris Icabod]

Oldguy,

Good thing that you returned your Isaac, they just recalled all of their frames manufactured since 2004! You should be grateful that yours was only bent and unrideable, if you had gotten it out on the road, lord only knows what could have happened!

http://www.isaac-carbon.info/20.0.html?&L=1

[BumbleBeeDave]

I wonder how many frames exactly that includes? I guess regardless of how many, it makes Isaac look real bad . . .

BBD

[Keith A]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like it is the forks rather than the frames themselves...

"As a precautionary safety measure, all Isaac forks must be returned to an Isaac dealer to be checked before further use, and fork expanders must be exchanged."

[oldguy00]

Yeah, saw that!
I'm disappointed that it didn't work out. Isaac's have a bit of a different geometry which on paper would have been perfect for me, and the frame was -very- nice visually.
Oh well...

[97CSI]

Sorry to read this. I've purchased from Clive at Glory Cycles many times and have always been happy with their service and pricing. A 'sign of the times', perhaps. But that is still no excuse.

It is Glory Cycles in Orlando. The frame is arriving there today. The manager has not responded to any of my emails. Visa has my paperwork, but say they won't be able to get to it for probably another week.......what a pain in the arse......Again, I'm hoping they will actually do a '180' and refund my money like they should, but somehow I doubt it...