Dura-Ace 7850-SL Tubeless Wheelset Questions

[Keith A]

I just recently purchased the new Dura-Ace 7850-SL wheelset along with some Hutchinson tubeless tires. I'm waiting on the tires to get here and have a couple of questions before installing the them:

o Any tricks to getting the tires to seat correctly? I've seen some comments that this is only possible with an air compressor.
o Should I use Stan's tire sealant?

Thanks in advance.

[LegendRider]

Lube the tire bead with soapy water - that helps the tire get seated quickly with the first blast of air from a pump. I almost always need an air compressor if mounting dry.

I've run one set of tubeless with Stans, one set with the Hutchinson sealant and one set without anything. I punctured with the Hutchinson sealant and it kept about 35 psi in the tire - enough to ride home carefully.

[keno]

I've had no problem just mounting them dry. The only trick I've used, if it's even a trick, is once the tire is mounted make sure that the beads are properly seated on either side of the valve flange before pumping. I use a plain old floor pump.

keno

[Climb01742]

I've had no problem just mounting them dry. The only trick I've used, if it's even a trick, is once the tire is mounted make sure that the beads are properly seated on either side of the valve flange before pumping. I use a plain old floor pump.

keno

ken, now that you've had these wheels for awhile, what's your longer-term opinion of them? is there any improvement in ride quality or performance over more traditional wheels/tires? thanks!

[keno]

There are actually two things to consider. There is the wheel aspect and there is the tubeless aspect. These wheels can be used with ordinary tubed clinchers simply by removing the tubeless valve and mounting your choice of tire and tube as you ordinarily do.

As wheels, they are better than anything I've ridden, but that hardly covers the waterfront. They are stiff but not harsh, as the Ksyriums were for me. They track wonderfully, and I feel very confident with them. As an example, in training yesterday I was drafting my coach's wheel about three inches away at 30-40 mph and he rolled over a very nasty piece of road in a shadow and the same for me. Not a waver. I'm not much of a climber so I can't compare on that score. It took some rides for them to roll well down hill, and I don't lose anything and gain on most with them. I actually got mine from my wrench, a US pro team mechanic, who swears by them, and whose team uses them as ordinary clinchers (maxxis is a sponsor). I understand that some other pro teams use them.

As for use with the tubeless Hutchinson's (I understand that Michelin has them and some pros use them, but apparently unlike Microsoft, Michelin won't retail until they have the bugs out), I love the ride. It is very comfortable and I pump them to 120psi, which is about as high as they recommend. Many run them at 100-110. They are fast as far as I'm concerned.

Wheel and tire choices are highly personal in my view. That's all I can give. I'm sure others have very different opinions. I still think that the best test is to get loaners or borrow a set and see for yourself. BTW, flydhest has ridden my Look with them and may be source for a second opinion. He rides tubies, and except for a few occasions, I am unfamliar what if any comparisons can be made on the tires. I know he liked the bike as he just bought a Look. He rides Campy and I don't know if the 7850s can be made to work with Campy.

keno

[johnnymossville]

Hi Keith,

I have a set of 7850's with hutchinson tubeless on my bike now and was able to mount them without any tools, and was able to pump them up with a normal floor pump.

Problems: I noticed that the back tire was holding air great (like normal tubed tires), but the front tire was losing between 20-25lbs per night which I thought was a bit excessive. I thought it might be that the bead was not seated properly and was about to take the tire off to remount it and noticed the valve stem was loose. I hand tightened it and haven't had a problem since.

Ride Quality: They ride better than anything I've ridden as far as clinchers go. I ride them with about 90psi front and back. I would say the ride is similar (almost as good) to the old tubulars I used to ride all the time. Smooth riding and great traction, wet or dry.

Wear: Almost 1000 miles on them so far and they are wearing great. Overall I love these things. I think as far as tubeless tire options go, there will probably be more now that Specialized and Campagnolo are jumping into the tubeless road game.

[dekindy]

In case that you are not aware, lots of reviews here:

http://www.roadbikereview.com/mfr/shimano/wheelsets/PRD_366351_2490crx.aspx

http://www.roadbikereview.com/mfr/shimano/wheelsets/PRD_411239_2490crx.aspx

[Acotts]

If you dont have a compressor. CO2 cartridges work really well. Also, if you adding the stans sealant, you can mount the tire, add the sealant, do you best witht the floor pump, then wait an hour. The tire should be sealed up and you should be able to pump it up no problem.

I like the tires. I think they are fine. I have some mounted on some Mavic OPs. They do a good job, but nothing life changing.

-A

[Keith A]

Thanks to all those who have contributed to this thread...I really appreciate the input. I'm looking forward to giving these a try and will be putting these on my C-50.

[benb]

Are they really any harder to seat then MTB tires?

Once I had mounted my Hutchinson MTB tires (Mavic UST rims) they seat on the first or second rapid pump from my floor pump.

Then I inject the Stan's stuff in through the valve core & they seal up very very quickly.. minutes, not hours. I do the shake/rotate thing as shown in the video tutorials.

But they were good enough to ride even without putting the Stan's stuff in. (They would lose a lot of air overnight.. after the stans they lose like 1psi or less a week)

[johnnymossville]

Are they really any harder to seat then MTB tires?

Once I had mounted my Hutchinson MTB tires (Mavic UST rims) they seat on the first or second rapid pump from my floor pump.

Then I inject the Stan's stuff in through the valve core & they seal up very very quickly.. minutes, not hours. I do the shake/rotate thing as shown in the video tutorials.

But they were good enough to ride even without putting the Stan's stuff in. (They would lose a lot of air overnight.. after the stans they lose like 1psi or less a week)


They seat up super easy, no problems seating for me. They pump up exactly like you are pumping up a normal tubed tire.

[dekindy]

Here is an installation video for installing the Stan's road tubeless system. The tire is able to be installed on this particular rim using soapy water and a floor pump.

http://www.notubes.com/movie_road.php

[Keith A]

Thanks for the video link!

[Acotts]

The mounting was the biggest surprise. I consider the OP's to be the standard barer for anything wheel related. Anyways, the tires mounted pretty easily. If, for some reason I get a hole too big for the sealant, I do forsee any problems putting in a tube. In fact, I think they were easier to mount than my Armadillos.

Good luck with the setup. I hear great things about the DA wheels.

-A

[dekindy]

Thanks for the video link!

You are welcome. I was considering converting my existing rim to tubeless but cannot do it because a stem the length that I need for my Velocity Deep V rims has not been developed yet. For now I am trying the open casing Vittorias that are acclaimed for their close to tubular ride.

Just to be clear, this system is for converting a regular clincher rim to tubeless. Rims that do not have spoke holes do not require the tape. The tubeless tire is all that is required. The sealant would still be useful for flat prevention if desired.

[benb]

I think Stan is a little nuts for pushing tubeless with tires & rims not designed for it. (ATMO)

The tire company says it's not supported & dangerous...

The rim company says it's not supported & dangerous...

Stan says it's OK cause he sells the stuff to do it..

Lots of people have trouble making it work.

I didn't realize he was selling it for road bikes now too.

If it's *his* rims designed for it that seems to be a different scenario.. but you only have 2 tires holding you up, I'd rather everyone involved agrees the system is safe.

[Acotts]

I think Stan is a little nuts for pushing tubeless with tires & rims not designed for it. (ATMO)

The tire company says it's not supported & dangerous...

The rim company says it's not supported & dangerous...

Stan says it's OK cause he sells the stuff to do it..

Lots of people have trouble making it work.

I didn't realize he was selling it for road bikes now too.

If it's *his* rims designed for it that seems to be a different scenario.. but you only have 2 tires holding you up, I'd rather everyone involved agrees the system is safe.


ya, I hear you on that. I had my reservations. But I thought it would be a fun expirement with some pretty basic rims. It is a sturdy setup. I think my rim would taco before I could muster enough force to get those babies off of the rim when they have 90+ psi. But I think the sealant has a lot to do with that. It really makes for a super tight seal. I would not run the tubless tires on non DA 7800 wheels without it.

Putting it all in perspective, I think that this wheel setup, despite not having the backup of the lawyers, is safer than my low-spoke count carbon tubulars with glued Sprinter tires. No matter how many miles I put on those suckers, I still think that I am going to snap them one day.

[keno]

Having watched the video, he has you remove the valve core.

How do I remove the valve cores from the Shimano tubeless valves?

Alternatively, can I simply apply the sealant to the inner surface of the tire before mounting it?

keno

[benb]

Yah.. if you hang it like he does, you can scoop some of the sealant into the rim before seating the final section of the bead.. that is how he seems to do it with some "non tubless rim + non tubeless tire" MTB setups.

Mavic valve stems have removable cores and come with a little wrench to make it easier to remove/replace them.. that's what I have on my MTB... however they do not thread onto stan's injector. But it still works, you just press the injector onto the valve & when you start to push the sealant seals the gap between the valve & injector.

That is for MTBs though, you use a hell of a lot more sealant AFAICT from that road video.

[LegendRider]

Having watched the video, he has you remove the valve core.

How do I remove the valve cores from the Shimano tubeless valves?

Alternatively, can I simply apply the sealant to the inner surface of the tire before mounting it?

keno

I did a Stan's conversion and simply added the sealant to the tire before mounting. Then I spun the wheel in a truing stand to spread out the sealant.

[Acotts]

It makes sense and is easy to do once you have everything in hand.

-A

[keno]

I think putting the sealant in the tire before mounting is the only way with the Shimano valves. They seem to be a single unit and the core is not removable as best I can tell.

keno

[Keith A]

Keno - So I take it that you haven't used Stan's on your wheelset? Are you planning on doing so?

[keno]

I have not, but am considering. I have some Hutchinson sealant. I don't know if better than Stan's or not, but that is what I'll use.

Actually, I may deflate the tires and do the soapy water to see if the tires will hold pressure better. They don't lose much over night in any event. Then I'll do the sealant. Actually, I'll have to put the sealant in first and mount the tire.

keno

[gemship]

I have this wheelset on my Cervelo and I use clinchers. It came with my bike and the builder convinced me that clinchers are the way to go. I love this wheelset. I'm sure lighter wheels can be made stiffer and more affordable however astheticly speaking between the graphics,and hubs this wheelset just oozes class. I realize I have nothing to contribute to this thread however someday I will run tubless and I'll give a report. Not sure if this remark is useful but sometimes while out of the seat on a climb the front wheel with only 16 spokes will make some creaking. I only have 500 miles on this wheelset so maybe things are still settling but I only weigh 160 so who knows. I do know this is a very stiff wheelset and has stayed very true despite riding some rough road in need of repaving.

[Keith A]

Keno -- Thanks for the reply and info. BTW, did the Fusion 2 tubeless tires come with the sealant?

[Keith A]

Well I got the tires in today and installed them on the wheels. I didn't use any soapy water or sealant -- and I just used a regular floor pump...no problems. They were a bit more difficult to install than Michelins on OpenPros, but I managed to get them on without any tools. I also didn't have any problems getting air into the tires. I followed the Shimano instructions and deflated them once to make sure the bead was locked into the rim and the re-inflated them to 100psi.

I'll be curious to see how well the pressure holds overnight. Hopefully I get a ride in tomorrow, but the weather isn't looking too good for the next several days.

[keno]

I bought the tires from BikeTireDirect at $49.95 or close to that (best price I could find by far). The sealant was additional, I think about $5.

keno