Problems at the gym...

[Ti Designs]

Just about every gym has this policy that only their own trainers can work with people on weight training programs. I would have no problem with this is any of them had a cyclist on staff who knew anything about weight training for cyclists - they don't. So, I was working with one of my riders, going over position and safety on the sled when one of the gym's trainers pulls me aside and tells me I can't do that. The way I see it, here are my options:

1) I can become certified as a trainer and work for the gym. That's 6 weeks and $600 for the initial certification, then training from Gold's gym, then another job I don't want.

2) I can consult for the gym, charging them just slightly more than they're charging my clients to pass the program along. They'll never go for that 'cause I have no certifications and thus know nothing about weight training.

3) I can point out that what I offer and what they offer has nothing in common. The riders I bring into the gym are serious athletes looking for better performance via weight training. They go well beyond what the staff is trained to handle. I tried this, it didn't work. Rules are rules, no matter how stupid they are.

4) I can ignore the warnings I get and just do my job. My clients and I represent $600/month to the gym, they're not that stupid. OK, maybe they are...

5) I can burn out their eliptical trainers until they ask me to go back to what I was doing before. This has worked in the past, but I'm not making any friends in the process.


What would you do?

[Steelhead]

Find another gym ?? Is that an option? Maybe approach the other gym before you go there and tell them what the deal is. I am also sure it is a liability thing for the gym to have freelance, for lack of a better word.. trainers using their stuff. :)

[zap]

What would I do.

1. Respect the gym and their rules.

2. There was a recent lawsuit (awarded last week ?) against an uncertified trainer and the gym that hired him. I think the injured client was awarded several million dollars. Get the certificates and anything else related to the job.

3. get insurance.

[benb]

You can't make it look like you're just two skinny dudes lifting as much weight as the fat dudes who parade around the gym pretending they are bodybuilders?

I would work in with your client.. lift weights with him.

Gyms are frigging retarded these days.. I can't even find one near me with a "real" squat rack. (I.e. free weights rather then something jammed in a track that forces unnatural motion to appease the insurance co.)

Last time I watched one of the trainers.. completely out of shape woman, she's assisting this 60-ish looking guy on what looks like his first workout.. very out of shape, big gut, chicken legs, can't do a squat with just his body weight.. The picture of someone who just got ordered into the gym by a concerned doctor. What does she do with her big-time fitness training? She has him doing these awful squats with dumbbells.. standing with each foot on one of those inflatable hemispheres that people use for balance training. I felt lucky I didn't see him fall. (She wasn't spotting of course)

Weight training has been perverted pretty darn well in this country.. Gold's seems to have it's own brand. (And yet I might join this winter.. if only cause they at least keep their stuff clean)

Zap the problem is practically none of the trainers know what they are doing anymore.. the certificate is a useless piece of paper.

[Climb01742]

find another gym if possible.

[regularguy412]

These stories of disappointment are precisely why I took the money I would have normally spent on a gym membership and applied it toward a good weight bench with a squat rack built in and some free weights. I don't do squats with more than my own body weight on the bar - that would be equivalent to lifting 2x my body weight. I think I spent about $250 for the equipment. I can get downstairs, warm up, do my workout and be in the shower by the time it would take me to drive to and from the gym. Granted. Some may not have the space, but even dumbells don't take that much space. Maybe I'm anti-social.

Mike in AR :beer:

[Ti Designs]

Finding a gym that has the right equipment is half the battle. Most gyms survive on the fact that most of the population needs to lose weight, so there's an emphasis on cardio equipment and easy to use cable type machines, but that's not what I'm looking for. What I need is somewhat simple, a leg press that supports the load at the hips (the standard inverted sled that so many gyms have taken out), leg extension machine with some sort of control over starting and ending range and a leg curl machine. My gym has the right equipment, I bring in new members, and yet...

As for other gyms, it's the same story in every gym I've been to around here. Yeh, it's a liability issue, but it's covering their a$$ and nothing else - like race officials not being allowed to check the glue on tires because it would imply the tire is safe. There are plenty of people at the gym doing all kinds of damage to themselves, and that's OK. But one coach working with their rider showing them the safe way of doing something isn't. Let's be clear about this, my riders push a LOT of weight on the leg press. 6 of the women I coach push more than 800 pounds. (if you're thinking there's no reason for that, I have 4 medals from nationals that say there is) It's done right or it's dangerous as hell. These riders are all competitive, it's not a question of IF they'll be pushing that much weight, it's a question of if they'll get injured in the process. Thus far none of them have, but the gym would like to change all that.

While I was there I saw this girl on a Spin bike. She was short, maybe 5'2". She was out of the saddle with no resistance, she had those tennis elbow bubble things on both knees while that 40 pound flywheel and cranks that are too long for her were tearing her tendons off her bones. Nobody else at the gym seems to have a problem with this...

[Climb01742]

ed, get clint to rent you those 3 pieces, put them in WW's basement and charge people. seriously.

[fiamme red]

I had no idea that learning to use a leg press machine was so difficult! :p

I agree with benb. Work in with your client.

[Ti Designs]

1. Respect the gym and their rules.

I could respect the rules if there was an option that worked within them. As for respecting the gym, it's owners or trainers, that's going to take some doing...

2. There was a recent lawsuit (awarded last week ?) against an uncertified trainer and the gym that hired him. I think the injured client was awarded several million dollars. Get the certificates and anything else related to the job.

And there was a claim against McDonalds for serving hot coffee. Yet most people don't insure their coffee machines and sometimes even serve hot coffee to their friends...

3. get insurance.

Spending money on certifications, continuing education (4 of the certifications require it) and insurance would make the coaching business more bother than it's worth while adding nothing in return.

[benb]

I had no idea that learning to use a leg press machine was so difficult! :p


Some of the leg press sleds don't even seem like they are safe with *any* technique for higher weights. An awful lot of the ones I've encountered in hotels & gyms just don't seem to support your back/hips safely enough to push big weights. Add onto that they all seem to have different leverages on their pulley systems (when they have pulleys & cables) and you can't even say Xlbs = Xlbs from machine to machine.

It all gets really annoying if you try to work out while travelling on business, etc..

And the really stupid thing is IMO the original "Universal" machine had a perfectly decent leg press machine, even if it wasn't as good as a squat rack & a free bar with good technique. For some reason everyone seemed to think they need to improve on the originals.

Ed.. my sports medicine doc has repeatedly told me that he feels *no one* should be doing leg extensions with high weight.. (not hamstring curls, those are OK) The knee is not designed for that and everyone should be doing squats & presses instead, etc, etc.. What would your reason for recommending leg extensions to a cyclist be when it most certainly does not duplicate any cycling forces? Strengthening of the Vastus Medialis? (edit: Apparently they do not help the Vastus Medialis as well as squats & presses)

[Pete Serotta]

I am assuming that you are also a member of the GYM. If so then you and the other person are training together. :)


You are not training them in the gym's view for only their trainers have that ability.

This is just the way I look at it. Since both of you are training together and paying your membership everybody is cool. Just be polite and wait to see if a manager ever comes to talk to you.... If he/she does remind them that you would rather stay there and do your workouts with your "friends" but if not we will find another gym. Membership / dues are a key measurement of theirs...and harder in this economic times. (until New Years resolutions kick in and people go to the gym for a few weeks) :)

[Lincoln]

Frustrating.

Is there anyway they could let you in as a coach of a club? That way (at least in their minds) the club becomes the umbrella over the activities. Also they would be the official training ctr of TD Cycling Club.

Try finding a place with a proper platform, bars and weights for cleans. :crap:

[Lincoln]

<snip>
Ed.. my sports medicine doc has repeatedly told me that he feels *no one* should be doing leg extensions with high weight.. (not hamstring curls, those are OK) The knee is not designed for that and everyone should be doing squats & presses instead, etc, etc.. What would your reason for recommending leg extensions to a cyclist be when it most certainly does not duplicate any cycling forces? Strengthening of the Vastus Medialis? (edit: Apparently they do not help the Vastus Medialis as well as squats & presses)

He was talking about leg presses with really high weight not the extensions. My understanding is that the dangers with leg extensions and high weights has to do with the range of motion being used; probably why TiD was wanting a leg extension machine with control over the starting and ending points.

[Ti Designs]

Some of the leg press sleds don't even seem like they are safe with *any* technique for higher weights.

Tell me about it. I went from cat 2 bike racer to not being able to walk for almost a year because of one of them. It's called axial loading, taking all the weight the legs can push and supporting it on the shoulders, loading up the spine in the process. The trainer (or coache's) job is to direct their client to safe equipment and teach them how to use it. This is something you don't see many trainers at gyms doing. I have never heard a trainer at my gym say any piece of equipment is dangerous in any way - again, it's more about liability than it is about safety.



Ed.. my sports medicine doc has repeatedly told me that he feels *no one* should be doing leg extensions with high weight.. (not hamstring curls, those are OK) The knee is not designed for that and everyone should be doing squats & presses instead, etc, etc.. What would your reason for recommending leg extensions to a cyclist be when it most certainly does not duplicate any cycling forces? Strengthening of the Vastus Medialis?

Your doc gave you the readers digest version. Leg extensions can be broken down into two parts, the initial extension from 90+ degrees to around 45 degrees, using the vastus lateralis (the large part of the quad on the outside of the leg) and from 45 degrees to around 10 degrees using the vastus medialis. The danger lies in the first part. While the lateralis is a far larger and stronger muscle group, the connecive tissue crosses over the patela and connects at the tibial plateau. That that means it's pulling down on the kneecap causeing a lot of sheer force - not a good thing. The medialis lifts and stabalizes the patela, so doing leg extensions with both legs up to 45 degrees, then finishing the range of motion with one leg at a time both builds the stabalizing muscle group while lowering the forces on the knee in the first part of the motion. With the medialis strengthened, one can then safely work on lateralis strength. I've never seen a sprinter who didn't have explosive quad strength - that has to come from somewhere.

As for the bulk of the work in the gym, it's about the glutes and using the leg press. Go to better-rider.com, click on training and go to strength to get an idea of what the program looks like. My ideas on freeweights and balance have changed a bit since I wrote that, but the idea of using the machine to isolate one muscle group in a limited range of motion still hold. The comment about how hard it is to learn how to use a leg press is well timed. Most people can't control which muscle group they use to push the sled. If your quads are working you're doing it wrong and not doing your knees any favors - it's all from the hips. Once you figure out how to isolate the glutes two things happen. 1) the weight you can push doubles. 2) you feel like you have an a$$ full of cement the next day. The glutes are huge muscles, knowing how to use them within the pedal stroke has lead me to say such stupid things like "you don't anything smaller than a 44x21 in the Boston area", but there's a down side. There is a fatigue point, the tension at which tears in the fibers form. That stiffness and pain you feel the next day is the result of these tears. In weight training you're causing damage which the body repairs and makes stronger, which in turn puts the tension the fibers can withstand outside of the range that you can generate on the bike.

When I first started working with Aimee Vassee her training log showed she was in pain after every interval session. I got her into the gym and on the sled where she started at 50 pounds. 16 weeks later she was pushing 300 pounds and the pain index fell off the training log 'cause she didn't hurt after hard rides. Most people think sprinters lift, climbers don't. After her weight training program Aimee went on to win Mt Washington her first time. Muscle fiber strength and fatigue resistance are the same thing. 6 miles into the hill when you hit the steep grade that counts.

If ever you want to see the clear difference between sprinters and climbers, the gym is the place. At one point I had two of my Harvard riders training together. Lily was the climber, at her best she pushed 3 45Lb plates per side. Eve is the sprinter, she would be chewing gum up to 5 45Lb plates per side, then she would get serious. On the trainer I could ask Lily to ride at 7/10ths and she would sit there at 140BPM without needing to look at the numbers. Ask Eve to do the same thing and in no time her heart rate would be over 200. Good power to weight ratio and good feedback vs. huge power, no feedback. Take what you learn about your body at the gym, add a heart rate monitor and power meter on the bike and you have a rider who can cover their weaknesses and best use their strengths.

That's why I'm ignoring the rules at the gym as much as I dare...

[Charles M]

If both you and your people are paid members, I'm not sure what the basis for their complaint is?

Members communicating to other members is banned?

[gdw]

Are you charging for your services?

[dekindy]

The person or company that makes the capital investment owns the gym and makes the rules. You can either follow the rules or get out. It is as simple as that. I don't see breaking the rules as an option.

How would you like it if someone came into your business and started doing your job for free or taking control over your facility?

[A.L.Breguet]

The person or company that makes the capital investment owns the gym and makes the rules. You can either follow the rules or get out. It is as simple as that. I don't see breaking the rules as an option.

How would you like it if someone came into your business and started doing your job for free or taking control over your facility?

You just hit that nail.







.

[dauwhe]

How would you like it if someone came into your business and started doing your job for free or taking control over your facility

Anybody who wants to do my job for free, PM me and I'll give you the address!

Dave

[Satellite]

Ti Designs,

I understand you dilemma. Why don't you make a regiment for your clients and let them go to the gym and perform the workout solo. I am sure you don't ride the miles for your clients. Tell them what and how to safely lift and give them the reigns.

Satellite

[slowgoing]

What would I do.

1. Respect the gym and their rules.

2. There was a recent lawsuit (awarded last week ?) against an uncertified trainer and the gym that hired him. I think the injured client was awarded several million dollars. Get the certificates and anything else related to the job.

3. get insurance.

+ 1

[Climb01742]

i feel ti designs pain. while it's true gyms have every right to set their rules, most gyms aren't exactly paragons of good business practices or customer service. most "trainers" at most gyms are little more than t-shirts with "trainer" written on the back. watching how they "train" most clients is painful. so while gyms do have the right to set rules and for legal reasons these rules should be respected, i'd guess ti designs has given out more useful advice than 90% of "trainers". his means may be open to question but his goal is a good one.

[93legendti]

Time to open your own gym.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . The comment about how hard it is to learn how to use a leg press is well timed. Most people can't control which muscle group they use to push the sled. If your quads are working you're doing it wrong and not doing your knees any favors - it's all from the hips. Once you figure out how to isolate the glutes two things happen. 1) the weight you can push doubles. 2) you feel like you have an a$$ full of cement the next day.

. . . when using the sled to push with my toes to stress the quads, but to consciously try to push with my heels to put the stress on the glutes. Real easy to remember, easy to tell and teach someone else, and it works well in terms of where I'm getting the burn. Push with my heels and I definitely get that "ass full of cement" feeling the next day. Your glutes get hard as a rock. Push with my toes and the quads go crazy. It also relates well to my strengths on the bike when I come out in the spring after doing spin and the sled all winter. I can sprint like a sonofayou-know-what but I have no endurance. As the season goes on with just riding I gain endurance but lose some of that sprint, since I'm out riding instead of using the sled.

As for gym rules, I'd say as long as you work in with your client and the gym personnel don't know you're a trainer, then you're OK. But by this time I imagine they DO know you're a trainer, and you can't put that toothpaste back in the tube. Additionally, if you go over there with every girl on your team at different times and work in with all of them, you're going to get pretty tired yourself.

I also don't think a lot of the idea to work up a routine, then let the client go do it by themselves. You need to be there at the start to show them proper style and safety or they're far more likely to get injured. Then the liability is on you.

Having had a severe knee injury when I was 12, I'm really down on machine leg extensions because the shear forces combined with my chondromalacia make it near impossible for me to do a machine extension with any significant weight. But the sled is a must-have for me. It takes the weight off my spine to a large degree and makes it far easier to monitor style and safety than a standing squat. Plus the heel vs. toes thing lets me feel I can work both quads and glutes with it.

What would it cost to get a used sled and enough weights to make it worthwhile? I agree that the rules your gym has are really formulated for the liability protection and convenience, NOT for the training goals of riders like yours. But at this point since they already know you're a trainer, your only other real option is to find a new gym where you're unknown and be real stealthy.

BBD

[Lifelover]

..... It's done right or it's dangerous as hell....


Based on this alone, I can understand whythe gym does not want you doing what you are doing.

Too much risk for the benefit that you bring.

[Ti Designs]

How would you like it if someone came into your business and started doing your job for free or taking control over your facility?

When could they start? You are working under the assumption that everybody can do every job within the facility. Lofty goals, but it never happens. As I've said from the start, they can't do the job. If I had any confidence in their ability to do the job I would gladly let them. I have what amounts to two full time jobs and way too many hobbies, it's not like I have the time to do this in the first place.

The gym in question claims to be able to help in any sport. To their credit they do have a couple of trainers who have solid backgrounds in a sport or two. When I started rock climbing I asked their staff for some guidance, but they didn't understand the activity or how to best train for it. I got help from outside the gym.

The idea that every staff member is an expert on every subject has come up before. When HighRoads opened it's Boston based shops their business plan said just that - every member of their staff will be an expert on every subject. Yeh, that worked well... I run into the same issue at work, there are some things we assign only to certain staff members. Tandem sales and fittings are two such things. Once in a while I'm doing a fitting when another staff member comes down and says there are customers looking for help with tandems. It would be great to think that we could just swap jobs, but then one of our customers gets screwed.

And for what it's worth, I've been trying to get other people to do one of my jobs for the last 8 years. It's a coaching job with the Harvard team. It's three mornings a week, you're on the bike an hour before the sun comes up, it's cold, riding with the group that shows up in the fall is like herding cats, once in a while you get to fix bikes with a folding tool while wearing gloves, other times you get to pick riders up from the hospital and get their bikes from the police station, and for 5 months of this you get a jersey. C'mon, put me out of a job - you know you want to!


Why don't you make a regiment for your clients and let them go to the gym and perform the workout solo. I am sure you don't ride the miles for your clients. Tell them what and how to safely lift and give them the reigns.

Doesn't work. If you tried that you would swear that everybody you worked with is retarded. Yesterday was the first day of paceline work with the team. It's a simple concept and they're Harvard students, how hard could it be? Anyone who's worked with new riders knows the frustration. Setting up gym programs isjust as frustrating, but there's added danger. Just getting people to isolate their glutes instead of using their quads on the leg press can take days. The rider I'm working with at my gym had a torn ACL last winter, I can't let her knees move in as the weight increases, so I used Aline insoles in her shoes to correct the problem - not something I can do by writting up a workout...

In order to start up my winter pedal stroke classes I've had to write up a step by step description of the class. One would think that just reading that would be enough, but it's not. Just the very first part, learning the muscle firing order and having the rider pedal in a smooth circle, slowly with only one foot clipped in, turning a nothing gear - sounds easy, right? Try it, video tape yourself doing it, then watch the tape. Is that slow - no using momentum? Do your feet stay flat or do they point down? Can you tell where the pedal is based on sound? I sound like a broken record when I'm coaching, but people don't have a clue about what their body is really doing.

[toaster]

Ti Designs,

I'm just wondering why the hip sled or leg press machine is even a good choice for cyclists in the first place?

All those gyms have machines that you either sit in, lay down on, or otherwise use a compromised position that doesn't engage core musculature or functional stability and of those the leg press is the biggest "cheat" machine.

There's always the front squat or pistols.

[SadieKate]

When could they start? You are working under the assumption that everybody can do every job within the facility. Lofty goals, but it never happens. As I've said from the start, they can't do the job. If I had any confidence in their ability to do the job I would gladly let them. I have what amounts to two full time jobs and way too many hobbies, it's not like I have the time to do this in the first place. It doesn't matter whether they can do the job or not, you are still competing for a potential client using their business facility and against their rules. Sure, it should matter to them that the staff can't provide quality consultation, but that isn't the point here.

And it is not their fault that you don't have the time. Don't get cranky toward them for that reason. ;)

[Ti Designs]

All those gyms have machines that you either sit in, lay down on, or otherwise use a compromised position that doesn't engage core musculature or functional stability and of those the leg press is the biggest "cheat" machine.

This is the classic argument between the use of machines vs. freeweights. Is the goal to engage supporting muscles or is the goal to isolate and overload one muscle group without the restrictions of stability? My goal for winter training is to break down cycling into it's component parts, which means breaking down the pedal stroke into range of motion using glutes, quads and hamstrings, and overloading each of those muscle groups at the gym. The argument against using the machines is also the argument for using them. Machines like the leg press allow the user to push weights that they could never push without the machine, which puts any force their muscles see in normal use well below the point where tears start. The bottom line is pushing huge weights on the machine, isolating just one larger muscle group reduces fatigue over hard efforts. I have a fair amount of data (26 individual riders over 7 years) to back that claim up.

[Ti Designs]

It doesn't matter whether they can do the job or not, you are still competing for a potential client using their business facility and against their rules.

"competing for a potential client" isn't exactly correct. My first year with any client is all about skills and pedal stroke. The second year we talk about weights. If they are still with me for a second season, one could assume they are my client. The gym offeres two services, the use of the equipment and the use of their training staff. I bring them a customer for the first part. The second part they have tied to the first, but they can't offer what the cusomer is asking for.

[toaster]

Having read the articles at Better-Rider.com, I see what he's trying to train but I don't think it helps cycling.

You can't make the movements specific to cycling so why even try?

Wouldn't it be better to train strength in a way that wouldn't cause such imbalances?

Doing all those leg presses will make you strong at doing all those leg presses and make them heavier but how can you learn to use that strength when the body has to unlearn the leg press to pedal efficiently again?

My point is to get off the weight machines and do a limited amount of compound power building movements using body weight plus free weight and ride the bike as usual.

[SadieKate]

"competing for a potential client" isn't exactly correct. My first year with any client is all about skills and pedal stroke. The second year we talk about weights. If they are still with me for a second season, one could assume they are my client. The gym offeres two services, the use of the equipment and the use of their training staff. I bring them a customer for the first part. The second part they have tied to the first, but they can't offer what the cusomer is asking for.Quit focusing on what you think the customer wants and think about what the business thinks it is offering. As long as they think they are offering what the customer wants by providing trainers, you are competing for their business. Do you have an agreement in place to "bring them a customer"? If not, you have no formal business relationship with them and they don't owe you a thing. You are still breaking their rules and doing it in front of your customer. It seems to me that you have the option of writing up a business plan and approaching the gym owner with it or find another gym, otherwise you could make yourself persona non grata (or however it is spelled).

[gdw]

Dekindy and SadieKate are right. It is their business. They pay the bills and are liable for any injuries which occur on their premises. You're competing with their services and not compensating them for loss revenue. You also lack a phys ed degree or certification. What do they gain by allowing you to operate out of their gym?

There's a real simple solution to your problem. Use Harvard's facilities. If the cycling team is a student organization and you're recognized by the athletic department as its coach you should be allowed to use one of the weight rooms on campus. If your team includes nonstudents who can't use the facilities, get certified. Quick bitching and play by the rules.

[Viper]

Open your own clinic/gym. America. Capitalism still exists, kinda. We live in a litigious society, the gym's lawyers will be seeking council, consulatation and it won't involve gravity.

Someday I will open a Star Wars Clinic, a think tank, group of consultants who research, lobby and foster ideas related to The Force. :beer:

[Ti Designs]

Doing all those leg presses will make you strong at doing all those leg presses and make them heavier but how can you learn to use that strength when the body has to unlearn the leg press to pedal efficiently again?


Individual muscles don't control movements of the body. Individual muscles contract, pull on tendons in either direction and move one pivot in one direction only. The pedal stroke is made up of a sequence of muscles firing, but each of those muscles is still only capable of contracting. Two different things...

As for making them heavier or wrecking their pedal stroke, the data says otherwise.

[Viper]

As for making them heavier or wrecking their pedal stroke, the data says otherwise.

Pundits in the 50's and 60's said the same for all sports, weightlifting would ruin you athletically, make you tight and musclebound. Slowly, they got it, society as Arnold Schwarnzenegger's oasis of Gold's and World Gym in Santa Monica spread across the country; anaerobic activity is of tremendous benefit to all athletes and for all sports.

Mike Mentzer was my trainer for three years, I enjoyed my time in Venice, CA, aka The Mecca and using the historic, rusted weights from the original Pumping Iron Gym, which stand on the roof of the current World Gym location, was an honor. Mike Menzter had a lot to say about machines versus free-weights and Tiger Woods' 310 yard drives don't need to say anything, the sound at impact is clear.

One of the best trainers, a big advocate of cross-training, catching chickens atmo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SDJj9yyqds

[William]

Individual muscles don't control movements of the body. Individual muscles contract, pull on tendons in either direction and move one pivot in one direction only. The pedal stroke is made up of a sequence of muscles firing, but each of those muscles is still only capable of contracting. Two different things...

As for making them heavier or wrecking their pedal stroke, the data says otherwise.

Agreed.

When I was during power training during the off-season, my leg days where very heavy on the weights. What would really help is to spin to warm up before hand, stretch in between sets, and spin to cool down afterward. I found it to be very beneficial and my results proved it out...for me personally.

In addition too....

...compound power building movements using body weight plus free weight and ride the bike as usual.

Btw, I agree here as well.




William

[BumbleBeeDave]

There's a real simple solution to your problem. Use Harvard's facilities. If the cycling team is a student organization and you're recognized by the athletic department as its coach you should be allowed to use one of the weight rooms on campus. . . .

Harvard must have a pretty nice facility. I mean, it's Harvard, fer' Pete's sakes . . . :rolleyes:

BBD

[csm]

I was visiting my neice at Harvard and was surprised at the dorms rooms. even though they call them houses. sorta spartan and old. not what I expected.
the yard was nice though. and John Harvard's serves a mean pizza and beer.

[benb]

Good schools are not good cause they have fancy buildings & Wifi everywhere and jacuzzis in the dorms...

[BURCH]

I am assuming that you are also a member of the GYM. If so then you and the other person are training together. :)


You are not training them in the gym's view for only their trainers have that ability.

This is just the way I look at it. Since both of you are training together and paying your membership everybody is cool. Just be polite and wait to see if a manager ever comes to talk to you.... If he/she does remind them that you would rather stay there and do your workouts with your "friends" but if not we will find another gym.

Bingo. This is my thought. You are both members working out together. You just happen to have more knowledge to pass along.

I think that you just have an ill tempered or maybe desperate for clients trainer trying to intimidate you. Either way, ignore the trainer. You don't appear to be doing anything wrong.

[Viper]

Bingo. This is my thought. You are both members working out together. You just happen to have more knowledge to pass along.

I think that you just have an ill tempered or maybe desperate for clients trainer trying to intimidate you. Either way, ignore the trainer. You don't appear to be doing anything wrong.

Agreed. But. When there is an exchange of money, it becomes about the money. I give golf swing advice at the range all the time, invariably someone comes along to watch, learn, then ask a question which turns into a lesson. I've caught a lot of flack from the range pro's, who fish the range for clients and I always recommend the golfer meet with a pro.

Sex is just sex, except when there's money involved. If a decent person asks me how to grip the golf club, stand over the ball, swing the club etc, I will help them, it's the human thing to do. We need to help eachother more, not less (this is what I told the golf pros).

[BURCH]

Agreed. But. When there is an exchange of money, it becomes about the money.

I must not have read the post correctly. I didn't realize that the original poster was getting paid by the person he was training. If he is getting paid, I am on the gym's side. You can't do that in their place whether or not they are offering what you can provide.

[znfdl]

I must not have read the post correctly. I didn't realize that the original poster was getting paid by the person he was training. If he is getting paid, I am on the gym's side. You can't do that in their place whether or not they are offering what you can provide.

+1

[SadieKate]

Agreed. But. When there is an exchange of money, it becomes about the money. I give golf swing advice at the range all the time, invariably someone comes along to watch, learn, then ask a question which turns into a lesson. I've caught a lot of flack from the range pro's, who fish the range for clients and I always recommend the golfer meet with a pro. And I assume you don't call your fellow golfers your "clients?"

[William]

Sex is just sex, except when there's money involved. If a decent person asks me how to grip the golf club, stand over the ball, swing the club etc, ....


Are you still talking about golf???




William
(Don't forget to throw it through the little round hole in the side... ;) :D )

[Ti Designs]

Are you charging for your services?

It seems like we've put that to a vote and the answer was yes...


Pull up http://www.cyclingnews.com.au/letters/2001/nov12letters.shtml#coaches and skip to the part about coaches...

There are two reasons I coach riders. 1) it's the right thing to do, and in 30 years of coaching John Allis has found a couple of people willing to do the same. John coached me for free, as did others, I'm passing that along to the next generation of riders. Apparently doing the right thing is wrong these days - too bad. 2) I view the results of my racers as an extension of my own racing career. To watch a rider do well, knowing you had a big part in it is special. It makes all the late nights fixing bikes or the early mornings coaching or the arguments with trainers at the gym worth it. None of that has anything to do with money.

[Steelhead]

I hear there is a similiar debate going on in Austin, where run training groups are gathering in public places and then conducting running clinics on the scenic thoroughfares, just like mini 10Ks or longer. Sometimes when riding down Shoal Creek Blvd on a weekend morning, there can be more than 100 paid customers of Rogue Running out there on the streets, running right down the bike lane, or ped. lane or whatever it is this month. There is also "boot camp" type training going on in the parks, and don't even get me started on the little triathlon groups springing up. The city no likey.

[SadieKate]

Ti Designs, I don't believe anyone is saying your intent is wrong. It is just your use of resources owned and maintained by others with specific rules against such use.

Would you think it permissible for someone to use your studio without your permission and without compensation? Or someone come into the LBS and use the tools, space, lighting, etc., to do maintenance on their friends' bikes without permission? It's the same thing.

Good intent, but the end doesn't justify the means.

[paczki]

Ti Designs, I don't believe anyone is saying your intent is wrong. It is just your use of resources owned and maintained by others with specific rules against such use.

Would you think it permissible for someone to use your studio without your permission and without compensation? Or someone come into the LBS and use the tools, space, lighting, etc., to do maintenance on their friends' bikes without permission? It's the same thing.

Good intent, but the end doesn't justify the means.

I don't think the analogy quite works. In a studio or in a bike shop you are maintaining a monopoly on the tools and selling a product made with the tools. With a gym you are allowing access to members to use the machines, not using them to make a product.

[SadieKate]

I doubt there is an LBS around that doesn't expect to make money from selling their services using the shop-owned tools. A gym expects to make money by selling the services of a trainer using the gym equipment.

Nobody is buying the tools out of altruism. The services maybe but only if the shop/gym sees long term financial return (like taking care of good customers).

[Ti Designs]

Would you think it permissible for someone to use your studio without your permission and without compensation? Or someone come into the LBS and use the tools, space, lighting, etc., to do maintenance on their friends' bikes without permission? It's the same thing.


There are two different things here. There is the membership to the gym which gives members access to the equipment, and there is the service offered by the trainers. If someone paid me a membership fee to use my studio, they would have the right to use my studio. Much like my clients paying the membership at the gym and using the equipment - not much of a question there. In Cambridge there is a bike shop that will rent you tools and workspace (complete with lighting), and you can work on your bike or your friends bike if you wish.

OK, let's throw out another twist. I have 6 other clients I need to get into a weight training program. Let's say one of them joins my gym and asks the trainers there for help with a cycling specific workout - then what? They've been with me for at least one season so they know me on the bike (when I'm on the bike I'm right - it's my new theory. If you want to argue it, we'll have to go for a ride). So their coach (me) will be there doing a cycling specific workout while they pay a trainer who doesn't have a clue. Oh, this is sounding good :cool:

[SadieKate]

It depends on what the membership fees entitle you to do.

Oh forget it. If you don't understand the difference between paying for the use of [whatever] for personal use and paying for use of [whatever] for commercial use/financial gain (no matter how measly), you will never understand.

Since I live and breath this every day working with customers who license our software, I think I at least get this difference.

Good luck, Ti Designs. You obviously don't want to find a solution which requires understanding of the business' point of view.

[Ti Designs]

Since I live and breath this every day working with customers who license our software, I think I at least get this difference.

So if your software didn't even come close to doing the job that it was purchased or licensed for...


Good luck, Ti Designs. You obviously don't want to find a solution which requires understanding of the business' point of view.


At the expense of the customer? Hell no. We have a saying in the bike business - "the customer is always right". They aren't, but we tend to give them the benifit of the doubt. In this case what they offer can't do the job...


On Thursday my gym gets a new member and the test of it's trainers begins. Failure is an option...

[jimp1234]

I think SadieKate has pretty much nailed it, and stated the business case more eloquently than I could. Don't know if you remember the movie "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" but the rule of the burger shop laid down on Jeff Spiccoli of "no shirt, no shoes, no service" pretty much captures the spirit of the thing. Businesses can make and enforce any rules they want. Btw, you might want to think about some kind of "O & E" insurance. When one of your clients bulges a disk leg pressing 800 lbs on the sled (jeez louise that's a lot of weight) they may forget how wonderful a coach you are and sue you. I've always enjoyed your out of the box coaching ideas though. When you finally make that training DVD put me on the list. :cool:

[saab2000]

What would you do?

Set up my own gym.

Seriously. In your basement and expand from there.


Who needs Gold's and their corporate masters? Or any of the corporate masters.

Buy a few trainers, some weights and get busy. I am not kidding.

PS - I have not read much of this, but the customer is not always right. Do they want to get faster? Or do they want to be right? There is a difference. You decide. But ultimately they decide. But you decide if you want to work with the pansies.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . with as large a serious cycling population as metro Boston, setting up your own business designing cycling specific workouts and coaching the riders in your own home gym could be a viable proposition.

As for the gym, much as I respect you and would like to support you, I have to agree with others here. If it's their gym, they can make whatever rules they like and they can kick you out if they feel you are not following them. Perfectly legal and perfectly understandable, even if their own training product is flawed.

BBD

[rounder]

Set up my own gym.

Seriously. In your basement and expand from there.


Who needs Gold's and their corporate masters? Or any of the corporate masters.

Buy a few trainers, some weights and get busy. I am not kidding.

PS - I have not read much of this, but the customer is not always right. Do they want to get faster? Or do they want to be right? There is a difference. You decide. But ultimately they decide. But you decide if you want to work with the pansies.

I agree with that. But would add that you should buy some insurance in case anything happens. A few pieces of equipment can't be that expensive. They come to you because of what you know and what you can give them...not because of the equipment. You can add equipment later if necessary. Go for it Ti.

[regularguy412]

Set up my own gym.

Seriously. In your basement and expand from there.


Who needs Gold's and their corporate masters? Or any of the corporate masters.

Buy a few trainers, some weights and get busy. I am not kidding.

PS - I have not read much of this, but the customer is not always right. Do they want to get faster? Or do they want to be right? There is a difference. You decide. But ultimately they decide. But you decide if you want to work with the pansies.

I'll agree with SAAB. This solution of setting up your own gym and equipment solves all the perceived problems : upset gym owners and inadequate trainers. It also hits the gym owners where they will notice it most -- in the pocket book. Cycling is a niche market. We, as cyclists, are not necessarily looking for 'size' or 'looks' or 'how much can you bench?' remarks when we are training with weights. We're looking for results that we likely won't see until NEXT season. Consequently, gym owners are not really excited about putting adequate cycling trainers on staff. Do your own thing. At least, that's what I did. No issues.

Mike in AR :beer:

[Lifelover]

It seems like we've put that to a vote and the answer was yes...


Pull up http://www.cyclingnews.com.au/letters/2001/nov12letters.shtml#coaches and skip to the part about coaches...

There are two reasons I coach riders. 1) it's the right thing to do, and in 30 years of coaching John Allis has found a couple of people willing to do the same. John coached me for free, as did others, I'm passing that along to the next generation of riders. Apparently doing the right thing is wrong these days - too bad. 2) I view the results of my racers as an extension of my own racing career. To watch a rider do well, knowing you had a big part in it is special. It makes all the late nights fixing bikes or the early mornings coaching or the arguments with trainers at the gym worth it. None of that has anything to do with money.


Edit: Nevermind

[aLexis]

6 of the women I coach push more than 800 pounds.

Seriously, 800lbs. How many reps? This just seems like an insane amount of weight. I have seen the weight workouts for a lot of pro women racers, and I am not questioning your technique, just the ability of a female bike racer to push 800lbs.

[toaster]

First of all, I think the methodology of your weight training is not the end all for cyclists. Many successful cyclists don't employ your methods.

Second, Golds Gym doesn't want you training their members!

I was a trainer at a corporate gym for a couple years and we were expected to sell training to the members. Imagine how upset we got when we saw somebody "training" another person.

It doesn't matter who you are or what you think you know, you can't take a paying Golds member, even if you too are a paying member, and use their facility to provide something they sell inside their gym. That's the way it is and if you want an anology how about a Golds trainer instructing your client on a spin bike? You'd be upset but he could do just that inside the Golds gym and you couldn't do squat about it.

The only way around this is to work as "training partners" and fly under the radar. If you even make it look like the "client" is under your instruction and you aren't trading sets you are going to get reprimanded by the staff, or kicked out.

[Ti Designs]

Seriously, 800lbs. How many reps? This just seems like an insane amount of weight. I have seen the weight workouts for a lot of pro women racers, and I am not questioning your technique, just the ability of a female bike racer to push 800lbs.


https://www.usacycling.org/results/index.php?permit=2006-516

Scroll down to the women's Pro/1/2/3 race. Notice the woman who won is still a cat 3. Saying women can't push 800 pounds is kinda like saying that cat 3's can't win pro races. Julia did the same thing a few years before that, on a good day she could push 900 pounds.

As for injuries at the gym, I can't say that pushing that sort of weight is ever safe, but I don't know of any injuries that my riders have suffered in weight training. That would be the advantage of working with them on form before the weights start adding up - exactly what the gym doesn't want me doing. Just to give you an idea of how bad the gym's policy is, a number of years ago one of my riders was working out at a gym in Cambridge. She's a strong rider and she can push some serious weight on the leg press. She's also a cute little girl that all the guys wanted to show off for, so they would ask if they could work in with her. Guys do stupid things to show off for the girls, most of them got hurt in the process. Having a coach work with you on form is safe, but against club rules. Being an idiot is dangerous but allowed.

[Ti Designs]

I was a trainer at a corporate gym for a couple years and we were expected to sell training to the members. Imagine how upset we got when we saw somebody "training" another person.

So the title made you a expert on anything training related??? I've heard of the great powers of these matching shirts with "trainer" written on the back but I've never understood it's source - please explain.

[mikeg]

This strikes me as one of those 'gray' zones - how many 'clients' are you possibly training in Golds? A couple a year? I don't get the indication you're in there 8 hours a day with a steady stream of people (i.e., taking major business away from their trainers). This should be a case of don't ask/don't tell. The gym should let it go since they're getting business.

There should be some common sense here. As much as we'd like to think so (me included!) eveything's not black and white - does everyone go the speed limit every minute they're in the car? Do we all come to a complete stop, clip out, and set our foot down at EVERY stop sign on every ride?

[toaster]

So the title made you a expert on anything training related??? I've heard of the great powers of these matching shirts with "trainer" written on the back but I've never understood it's source - please explain.


Did I say the title made me an expert? Do I need to tell you my credentials and experience just to keep you from making a general statement about trainers based on your obvious prejudice?

It's no wonder why you are having conflicts at the gym and on this forum when acting like you are more expert than everyone else.

Unless you know what the heck you are saying when making stupid comments about who I am or what I've done, I'd keep the attitude in check, dude.

Up to this point I had respect for what you seem to profess, now it's about ego.

[Ti Designs]

Did I say the title made me an expert? Do I need to tell you my credentials and experience just to keep you from making a general statement about trainers based on your obvious prejudice?

Let's see, only the gym's trainers are allowed to work with clients. Yup, in that setting the title makes you the expert. Your credentials don't cover all sports and activities, so at some point that title is false and for the good of the client you should find someone better suited for the job.

The best example I can come up with from my world is when someone asked me about touring equipment and panniers. I'm an ex racer turned coach, what do I know about panniers? Another customer cut in and explained sizes, attachments, structure and top loading vs. side loading. Basicly he did exactly what I'm doing at the gym, stepping in when the so-called expert doesn't know what he's talking about. I listened, I learned, the customer got some exelent advice and life at the bike shop went on.


Up to this point I had respect for what you seem to profess, now it's about ego.

No, ego would be pretending you're the expert when you're not. Coaching for me has always been a responsibility to my clients. When I first started coaching I would be asked all kinds of questions I had no answers to, so that night I would do a bunch of reading or maybe call up my past coach and ask for advice to pass along. Right now I'm finding that I'm learning a lot about power meter training from the riders I brought into the sport - how's that for a knock upside the ego? My bottom line is that it's really not about the coach or the trainer, it's about what's best for the client.

[Viper]

A female pressing/pushing 800-900lbs?

I was a certified personal trainer @ Gold's Gym from 1990-1994 and worked in a PT clinic from 1985-1994. Mike Mentzer was my trainer, a truly unique individual:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Mentzer

The guys with skinny legs spent time on the leg press, pretending to do a lot of weight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSNvEpH2L1o

They guys who had tree trunks pushed a fraction of that weight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxa_kj2aBCU&feature=related

The leg press, hack squat and squat aren't viewed equally, the above demonstrates the vast differences. My best squat was 615lbs with Mike Mentzer in 1992 (Flex Wheeler in attendance). Julia wouldn't be able to move the Olympic Bar off the squat rack, nor would she be able to do a 615lb squat on a Smith Machine, but yes, she could push massive weight on a leg press.

Here's a lady doing 1000lb leg presses...and none of them is real as she forces the weight up with her arms pushing her knees, then does fast mini-reps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__njremeUQo

Here's a lady again doing fake/faux 900lb partial rep leg presses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d1_sMrKVQ8&feature=related

Here's a lady doing 400lbs presses and none of them is real, it's a yawn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8yqjfHIVQ8

I believe TiDesigns, he's an honest person...his client could do lots of weight on a leg press, but I think it's important to be open about the specific movement she was doing; the leg press is something we rolled our eyes at when we watched skinny guys talk in the locker room about the 950lb leg presses (thats 20, 45lb plates, plus the weight of the sled) they were doing.

Here's an 800lb hack squat, no woman could perform this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW0M0ajvuh4

So in summary, yes, I'd believe a female could do an 800lb leg press...aka pushing weight the videos above demonstrate the pushing of weight. Then again, not one of the females above have done one repetition, at all, in my mind.

Mike Mentzer believed philosophy and bodybuilding were one and the same (see linky above). Mentzer required us to read Ayn Rand. I enjoyed my conversations with him, it was sad he died so young. Machines? Arthur Jones was the founder, inventor of Nautilus and he was Mentzer's mentor. Machines were the foundation of Mentzer's training and Mentzer and I had this identical conversation in Gold's Gym in Santa Monica, as we watched people push massive weight on a leg press. I flew home from CA in 1994, age 24 and I was done; the only way to proceed in the sport would be a lifestyle of steroids and pills, not for me and so I left bodybuilding, but not the gym.

I train in the gym from October through March and if I see a smart person doing something incorrectly, sometimes, I will quietly show them the way. Would you not point out an untied shoelace to a stranger? Still, the wisest members in the gym will approach you and ask how to do something, as they watched you do it and the lightbulb has turned on above their head.

[Lifelover]

....The best example I can come up with from my world is when someone asked me about touring equipment and panniers. I'm an ex racer turned coach, what do I know about panniers? Another customer cut in and explained sizes, attachments, structure and top loading vs. side loading. Basicly he did exactly what I'm doing at the gym, stepping in when the so-called expert doesn't know what he's talking about. I listened, I learned, the customer got some exelent advice and life at the bike shop went on.....


If you sold panniers or panniers advice than it might be a good example. Since you don't it has no relavance.

Thier gym, thier rules. They clearly do not think as highly about you as you do.

Get over it and stop whinning.

[Lifelover]

....I train in the gym from October through March and if I see a smart person doing something incorrectly, sometimes, I will quietly show them the way. Would you not point out an untied shoelace to a stranger? Still, the wisest members in the gym will approach you and ask how to do something, as they watched you do it and the lightbulb has turned on above their head.


I suspect that even Ti Design's gym would not have a problem with this and even appreciate it.

That's not what he is doing.

[aLexis]

Ok, I understand that girls can do 800lbs, I think my disbelief was a female bike racer in the offseason would be doing 800lb reps on the leg press. Most women doing that kind of weight are weight lifters, not bike racers.
That's why I was curious about how many reps were being done. Sorry it came off as wee little girls can't push 800lbs, period.

Also, everyone has a different philosophy, and different programs work for different athletes. I had a conversation with Max Testa one day, and the funniest thing he said was, Alessandro Pettachi, he nota knowa wherea thea gyma is, ie no weight lifting. I have recently been hearing from Kevin Livingston all about Lance's strength training, it is pretty cool, but very different from standard gym fare. Again though, everyone is different, and there is no right answer that works for everyone. And yes girls can do 800lbs. I get that.

[Viper]

Ok, I understand that girls can do 800lbs, I think my disbelief was a female bike racer in the offseason would be doing 800lb reps on the leg press. Most women doing that kind of weight are weight lifters, not bike racers.
That's why I was curious about how many reps were being done. Sorry it came off as wee little girls can't push 800lbs, period.

Also, everyone has a different philosophy, and different programs work for different athletes. I had a conversation with Max Testa one day, and the funniest thing he said was, Alessandro Pettachi, he nota knowa wherea thea gyma is, ie no weight lifting. I have recently been hearing from Kevin Livingston all about Lance's strength training, it is pretty cool, but very different from standard gym fare. Again though, everyone is different, and there is no right answer that works for everyone. And yes girls can do 800lbs. I get that.

I'd give you a nickel for the reps and weight the ladies were doing in the above videos and I'd ask for some change back.

Everyone knows big girls are best :) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzF26HRjfBw

:beer:

[BumbleBeeDave]

A friendly reminder that while it is cross season and therefor flying mud is to be expected, slinging it on the forum is not in the line-up of approved race techniques. If you're going to get involved in personal attacks, please take it offline. :no:

Many thanks. :D

BBD

[93legendti]

Just about every gym has this policy that only their own trainers can work with people on weight training programs. I would have no problem with this is any of them had a cyclist on staff who knew anything about weight training for cyclists - they don't. So, I was working with one of my riders, going over position and safety on the sled when one of the gym's trainers pulls me aside and tells me I can't do that. The way I see it, here are my options:

1) I can become certified as a trainer and work for the gym. That's 6 weeks and $600 for the initial certification, then training from Gold's gym, then another job I don't want.

2) I can consult for the gym, charging them just slightly more than they're charging my clients to pass the program along. They'll never go for that 'cause I have no certifications and thus know nothing about weight training.

3) I can point out that what I offer and what they offer has nothing in common. The riders I bring into the gym are serious athletes looking for better performance via weight training. They go well beyond what the staff is trained to handle. I tried this, it didn't work. Rules are rules, no matter how stupid they are.

4) I can ignore the warnings I get and just do my job. My clients and I represent $600/month to the gym, they're not that stupid. OK, maybe they are...

5) I can burn out their eliptical trainers until they ask me to go back to what I was doing before. This has worked in the past, but I'm not making any friends in the process.


What would you do?
What are you going to do? My guess is #4.

[toaster]

Wow, a legend in his own mind!

I'm out. Got better things to do than to hash over nonsense.

[paczki]

Wow, a legend in his own mind!

I'm out. Got better things to do than to hash over nonsense.

I thought he was saying that he doesn't know a lot of things and learns them from people who do. Power meters, panniers, etc. That makes him a legend in his own mind?

[Steelhead]

Does any one have one of those stock photos of a roasted turkey with a fork in it, or maybe a cartoon of a dead horse and someone lining up to beat it?? :D

[paczki]

:) :)

[BumbleBeeDave]

Uuuuh, That's all, Folks!

I think we're done.

BBD

[Ti Designs]

If you sold panniers or panniers advice than it might be a good example. Since you don't it has no relavance.


I can check with sales history, but I'm pretty sure I sell panniers...


As for the issue with the gym, it's what we'll call a grey area. They'll see it as two members working out together just as long as I'm not wearing a stop watch around my neck and a shirt with Coach in large letters on the back. In return, if one of the trainers wants to understand what it is that I do, from bike fit to pedal stroke work to weight training to skills, I'll make it worth their time.

Now about that ego thing... Coaching new riders is like being a parent and taking your kids to Storyland. Parents all hate that place, but it's not about the parents. Some of those kids will outgrow Storyland, get into good schools and become doctors. Their parents will be so proud that they forget about all those trips to Storyland. Some of my riders win races and make me proud, but tomorow morning it's going to be 30 degrees out, I'm going to leave my house at 6:00AM with two extra pair of gloves, an extra thermal jacket and my second pair of booties 'cause I know some of those kids are going to show up wearing shorts and a jersey...

[sbornia]

Not to hijack this thread, but with all the talk about weightlifting I'm reminiscing about my grandfather (http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/ma/david-mayor-1.html)...he competed in the 1936 Olympics in Berlin, did better later when he was older, and built a career around coaching and judging. As a kid, I remember going to events with him, playing in his basement jammed with equipment and old body building magazines...even got to mop the stage at the 1980 trials, which was pretty fun for a 10 year-old. I think at some point during the Depression he even wrestled to make a buck, said it was fake then, too.

[Climb01742]

hey, for what it's worth, ed, like most interesting characters, is a complicated character, but as i think most folks who've met ed will say, he's a good guy. he's heart is in the right place. and however he's gotten there, he's helped a lot of folks. where he works is a big serotta dealer, and has supported ben for a long time, and as other shop employees have come and gone, ed has been a steadfast serotta supporter. heck, he even rides one. so maybe we can all cut the boy some slack. :beer:

[William]

hey, for what it's worth, ed, like most interesting characters, is a complicated character, but as i think most folks who've met ed will say, he's a good guy.

I would agree with that statement. :cool:




William


PS:All this locking and un-locking of threads is giving me a headache. ;)

[Viper]

hey, for what it's worth, viper, like most interesting characters, is a complicated character, but as i think most folks who've met viper will say, he's a stud.

Climb, thanks!

:beer:

[ti_boi]

Climb, thanks!

:beer:


I smell a love connection........................................ ........... :banana:

[Viper]

I smell a love connection........................................ ........... :banana:

Climb forgot to mention my peanut butter and jelly receipe, smooth legs that get shaved once or twice a summer and it hurt. I exfoliate the legs regularly.*

:beer:

* = it's Friday and everyone living person, especially in America needs to remove their brain and be fooles; if TGIF ever applied, it's these days and I am a great foole. My 8 year old nephew last night on the phone, "So uh umm Uncle, are you gonna come over for Star Wars and pizza tomorrow night?" We chatted and I talked about how tough the week was, work etc, how I looked forward to pizza/Star Wars and he offered, "Yeah, I think we're gonna have a Depression or something." Kids watch the news and they're smart.

[Climb01742]

Climb, thanks!

:beer:

but sir, you are no jack kennedy. ;)

ps: who knew a quote could be modified?

[Viper]

but sir, you are no jack kennedy. ;)

New Zealand pumped out a few hits in the 80's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a6hu6Z7Pkg

Bonus track:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BehkAj8MIw


:beer:

[fiamme red]

Not to hijack this thread, but with all the talk about weightlifting I'm reminiscing about my grandfather (http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/ma/david-mayor-1.html)...he competed in the 1936 Olympics in Berlin, did better later when he was older, and built a career around coaching and judging. As a kid, I remember going to events with him, playing in his basement jammed with equipment and old body building magazines...even got to mop the stage at the 1980 trials, which was pretty fun for a 10 year-old. I think at some point during the Depression he even wrestled to make a buck, said it was fake then, too.sbornia,

Was his name Mayor or Moyer? Arthur Chidlovski (http://www.chidlovski.net/liftup/l_athleteResult.asp?a_id=798) has him as Moyer. You should submit a correction if he misspelled your grandfather's name.

Your grandfather's weight on the page you cited (107 kg) can't be right if he lifted as a bantamweight. He couldn't have weighed more than 56 kg to be in that weight class. And it's pretty unlikely that he went from heavyweight in 1936 to bantamweight in 1957!

[Viper]

Bottom line is this:

[sc53]

I thought this thread was locked?

[Sandy]

I thought this thread was locked?

So did I. Someone must have had a key.


Sandy

[sbornia]

sbornia,

Was his name Mayor or Moyer? Arthur Chidlovski (http://www.chidlovski.net/liftup/l_athleteResult.asp?a_id=798) has him as Moyer. You should submit a correction if he misspelled your grandfather's name.

Your grandfather's weight on the page you cited (107 kg) can't be right if he lifted as a bantamweight. He couldn't have weighed more than 56 kg to be in that weight class. And it's pretty unlikely that he went from heavyweight in 1936 to bantamweight in 1957!

The page I cited is mistaken in referring to 1957 bantamweight records -- that must be the other guy, Moyer. My grandfather, Mayor, was never that light. Except when he was born early, and had to spend a week or so in an incubator. Good recovery on his part ;-) He set some national records around 1938, and probably would have done well had the 1940 games been held.