Joe the Plumber rides a SEROTTA

[Pete Serotta]

Joe rides a Heritage!!! :banana: :banana:

[clweed]

.

[soulspinner]

After he buys the biz he will probably get a Legend ;)

[Ken Robb]

Serotta is planning a new "Joe the Plumber" model made of triple-butted copper pipe. You send in your stimulus check and theysend the frame to you.

[fiamme red]

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9E04EFDB1031E533A65755C0A9609C94 679ED7CF

[rounder]

Serotta is planning a new "Joe the Plumber" model made of triple-butted copper pipe. You send in your stimulus check and theysend the frame to you.

No way...joe the plumber should set an example and ride steel...steel helped make America great. I see him riding a cda with chorus.

[Louis]

Maybe he should have used the money he spent on the Serotta to instead pay his back-taxes...

[rounder]

Maybe he should have used the money he spent on the Serotta to instead pay his back-taxes...

Is that right...he owes back taxes?

[michael white]

Is that right...he owes back taxes?

yep, he was delinquent.
also, he's not a plumber.

[Louis]

From NYT story here (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/us/politics/17joe.html?hp)


"According to public records, Mr. Wurzelbacher has been subject to two liens, each over $1,100. One, with a hospital, has been settled, but a tax lien with the State of Ohio is still outstanding."

[rcnute]

What a clown.

[Ahneida Ride]

Maybe he should have used the money he spent on the Serotta to instead pay his back-taxes...


the very people who founded this country still owe some back taxes. :p

[Ray]

From NYT story here (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/us/politics/17joe.html?hp)


"According to public records, Mr. Wurzelbacher has been subject to two liens, each over $1,100. One, with a hospital, has been settled, but a tax lien with the State of Ohio is still outstanding."
Uh Oh. I think Joe's gonna be riding PVC. Hey, they say its stiff and durable.

-Ray

[Climb01742]

ironic that joe the plumber's story just doesn't hold water.

[slowgoing]

ironic that joe the plumber's story just doesn't hold water.

That was good!

[Bill Bove]

Ahh, at least Joe Sixpack still rides aluminum :beer:

[Ray]

Ahh, at least Joe Sixpack still rides aluminum :beer:
You sure he doesn't ride glass?

-Ray

[PaulE]

When I saw Joe the plumber interviewed on tv yesterday, at first I thought he was Bjarne Riis :)

[Ray]

When I saw Joe the plumber interviewed on tv yesterday, at first I thought he was Bjarne Riis :)
You mean in addition to not paying taxes, he dopes too! Damn, this guy cheats at every level.

-Ray

[android]

Joe rides a Heritage!!! :banana: :banana:


Don't you have Joe the Plumber confused with John the Dentist? :rolleyes:

[Ahneida Ride]

Joe flushed his old bike for a Serotta ...

You'll have to wrench it from his hands.

Finally, owning a Serotta is not longer a pipe dream ....

[93legendti]

I contacted Serotta about a Heritage GP Suisse. if I understood the employee correctly, he said I already had 7 Serottas and they needed to take 1-2 bikes/framesets from me to distribute to riders with fewer Serottas...something about "spreading the wealth around is good for everyone".

Seems like an odd way to increase bike sales... :crap:

[Ahneida Ride]

No, they are going to increase prices on the Legend so they can
decrease prices on the heritage collection.

The people who purchased Legends are obviously too way wealthy. :D

Gruppos will also be re-distributed. No all Record is permissible. You must
have a at least 2 Veloce components.

[fiamme red]

I hear that Serotta will offer the option of PVC seat stays on the 2009 Fierte.

[MarleyMon]

I contacted Serotta about a Heritage GP Suisse. if I understood the employee correctly, he said I already had 7 Serottas and they needed to take 1-2 bikes/framesets from me to distribute to riders with fewer Serottas...something about "spreading the wealth around is good for everyone".

Seems like an odd way to increase bike sales... :crap:
Did they not explain the tax-shelter instrument to you?
I will hold your Ottrott or CSI in a blind trust* without assuming ownership,
which frees up your ability to purchase more Serottas.

Let me know when you want to get started!


*blind trust = you will never see it again, trust me.

[93legendti]

You mean in addition to not paying taxes, he dopes too! Damn, this guy cheats at every level.

-Ray

Gee, he sounds like Martin Nesbitt, you know, the chosen one's treasurer, who himself has a tax lien:

http://webofdeception.com/nesbitt.html

The messiah is even godfather to Nesbitt's son - Barack Hussein Obama sure knows how to pick his friends and associates.

But heck, since the deliverer talks so well, nothing else matters, right?

Wait, the lord's sister has a tax warrant against her!

http://webofdeception.com/obamasistertaxwarrant.html

It must be Pres. Bush's fault. :rolleyes:

These characters make Ayers seem like a nice guy.

[soulspinner]

Gee, he sounds like Martin Nesbitt, you know, the chosen one's treasurer, who himself has a tax lien:

http://webofdeception.com/nesbitt.html

The messiah is even godfather to Nesbitt's son - Barack Hussein Obama sure knows how to pick his friends and associates.

But heck, since the deliverer talks so well, nothing else matters, right?

Wait, the lord's sister has a tax warrant against her!

http://webofdeception.com/obamasistertaxwarrant.html

It must be Pres. Bush's fault. :rolleyes:

These characters make Ayers seem like a nice guy.


The use of his middle name does nothing but associate him with negatives and spells out your agenda. I dont even know Mcains middle name, IT DOES NOT MATTER. This guys gonna be prez, apparently. If, after hes elected you rail against him you then can be open to the "unAmerican" tag...the bottom line is we are all to susceptible to politics that drives us apart and we all need to gather after this election. You think Obamas gonna have these people in his cabinet and plan more 911 attacks from the oval office?

[thinpin]

HaHaHaHaHaHa HeHeHeHe
Just saw an article in the morning paper here in Oz bout "Joe the Plumber"
Now I'm laughing, now it all makes sense :beer:

[michael white]

The use of his middle name does nothing but associate him with negatives and spells out your agenda. I dont even know Mcains middle name, IT DOES NOT MATTER. This guys gonna be prez, apparently. If, after hes elected you rail against him you then can be open to the "unAmerican" tag...the bottom line is we are all to susceptible to politics that drives us apart and we all need to gather after this election. You think Obamas gonna have these people in his cabinet and plan more 911 attacks from the oval office?


I agree with this. A few weeks ago I got an email from a former Republican friend which was a gag attack ad. The basic premise was a comparison of photos of Michelle Obama, whom I think is extremely beautiful, and a female gorilla, side by side. As I said, this friend is no longer a friend. When Michelle is first lady, I guess she can reflect on patriotism.

As for accomplishments, remember, that was Bush's claim to fame, a major assumption of his platform; all the great nonpartisan things he did in Texas. "Accomplishments" can be as much about spin as anything else.

[93legendti]

The use of his middle name does nothing but associate him with negatives and spells out your agenda. I dont even know Mcains middle name, IT DOES NOT MATTER. This guys gonna be prez, apparently. If, after hes elected you rail against him you then can be open to the "unAmerican" tag...the bottom line is we are all to susceptible to politics that drives us apart and we all need to gather after this election. You think Obamas gonna have these people in his cabinet and plan more 911 attacks from the oval office?

But I called The One "lord", "messiah" and "the deliverer". Doesn't that count for something? :D

[johnnymossville]

Funny how Democrats turn around and belittle guys of "Lesser" careers and financial means. I thought they were for the little guy? Typical elitists with no use for the common man except for servitude and on election day.

(snickering) "How many plumbers do you know making a quarter million dollars a year?"

-- Barack Obama


"No plumbers in my neighborhood make $250k."

-- Joe Biden

What does Obama do for a living again besides vote present and read teleprompters?

[93legendti]

:) ..."No plumbers in my neighborhood make $250k."

-- Joe Biden...
Yeah, they make more than 250K!

Funny how The One doesn't "spread the wealth" and help his brother or sister. Funny how he and his wife, Miss Congenialty, didn't give to charity until The One decided to run for President. I guess when The One says "spread the wealth" he means everyone else should spread the wealth, so he doesn't have to.

Makes it clear why ACORN and The One have to resort to fraud to steal the election, because our Nation rejects his notion of "spread the wealth" with other people's money.

The One indeed. :)

[Flat Out]

:)
Yeah, they make more than 250K!

Funny how The One doesn't "spread the wealth" and help his brother or sister. Funny how he and his wife, Miss Congenialty, didn't give to charity until The One decided to run for President. I guess when The One says "spread the wealth" he means everyone else should spread the wealth, so he doesn't have to.

Makes it clear why ACORN and The One have to resort to fraud to steal the election, because our Nation rejects his notion of "spread the wealth" with other people's money.

The One indeed. :)

Wow. You're really going to have a difficult time the next 4 (or 8) years, aren't you? Here's hoping you can cope. God bless.

[93legendti]

Wow. You're really going to have a difficult time the next 4 (or 8) years, aren't you? Here's hoping you can cope. God bless.

I'm going to be fine. I lived thru the disaster that was Pres. Carter.

The people who won't be fine, are those mesmerized by The Wizard. When they come to their senses, they will be furious!

"...If all you used were data culled from the Report of the Secretary of the Senate, covering the six-month period ended March 31, 2008, you'd think McCain was the champion of Rosie the Riveter and Obama the heartless male chauvinist troglodyte.

Crunching the numbers, Obama's 28 male staffers were paid a total of $1,523,120 for an average salary of $54,397. Obama's 30 female employees divided $1,354,580 for a female average salary of $45,152. Obama's female staffers, on average, make just 83 cents to the dollar his male staffers make.

McCain's office, by contrast, is a feminist fantasy. McCain's 17 male staffers carve up $916,914 for an average salary of $53,936. His 25 female employees split $1,396,958 for average pay of $55,878. In McCain's office, a woman earns $1.04 for every buck a man makes.

Practice what you preach, Sen. Obama..."

[Ray]

.

[Arnabio]

Ahh, at least Joe Sixpack still rides aluminum :beer:

Didn't Serotta make a Team Pabst frame out of Al?



No, wait that was 7-11. Damn

[Charles M]

Yeah lets all forget that Joe the plummer was brought up and bantied by John the Liar...

despite the fact that the reality is that he'll pay more taxes under John...


But hey lets forget all that and keep up the cries of Terrorist and Socialist!

It will keep us from issues...



What bull**** this political crap is at this forum...

[Ti Designs]

Wealth? We have wealth?? News flash, congress passed a bail out package which brings the national debt to 10 trillion. The debt calculator ran out of digits. An honest look shows we got nothing to spread. Yet at the debate one candidate said he didn't want to raise anyone's taxes while making the bold claim that he could balance the budget in 4 years. The other said he would increase the tax on people making over $250K and made no claims of being able to balance the budget. Neither plan works, but the voters just want to know what's in it for them - how much wealth gets spread in their direction?

As long as idiots make up more than 50% of the population, nothing is going to change.

[rounder]

Wealth? We have wealth?? News flash, congress passed a bail out package which brings the national debt to 10 trillion. The debt calculator ran out of digits. An honest look shows we got nothing to spread. Yet at the debate one candidate said he didn't want to raise anyone's taxes while making the bold claim that he could balance the budget in 4 years. The other said he would increase the tax on people making over $250K and made no claims of being able to balance the budget. Neither plan works, but the voters just want to know what's in it for them - how much wealth gets spread in their direction?

As long as idiots make up more than 50% of the population, nothing is going to change.

I'm with you Ti. This is like the feel good election...whoever promises the most will probably get elected. There is a major economic meltdown going on out there, but neither candidate conceded anything from their campaign promises. Meanwhile, no one wants any bumps in the road (what's in it for us!!). I read the other day that someone asked the question...what kind of sacrifices will we have to make. I don't think the question was ever answered. There are lots of smart and informed folks out there (hope that Gates, Buffet et al are willing to voluntarily contribute), but really have my doubts that either of the candidates on their own have a clue how to fix the problems.

[Louis]

This is like the feel good election...whoever promises the most will probably get elected.

Oh yeah. I'm sure W's performance, along with the willing consent of his R buddies in Congress and the current state of our nation have nothing to do with it.

[Ray]

I'm with you Ti. This is like the feel good election...whoever promises the most will probably get elected. There is a major economic meltdown going on out there, but neither candidate conceded anything from their campaign promises. Meanwhile, no one wants any bumps in the road (what's in it for us!!). I read the other day that someone asked the question...what kind of sacrifices will we have to make. I don't think the question was ever answered. There are lots of smart and informed folks out there (hope that Gates, Buffet et al are willing to voluntarily contribute), but really have my doubts that either of the candidates on their own have a clue how to fix the problems.
NOBODY, on their own, has a clue how to fix the problems. Hopefully either guy will surround themselves with the people most likely to be able to help him figure it out and he'll be able to lead us through the minefields ahead. And EVERY election is the "feel good election" - the last candidates that tried to run on anything even approaching sacrifice were Carter and Mondale and they got their asses handed to them. Every candidate figures they have to get elected before they can do any of the things they hope will make a difference. So they have to lie to us or tell us feel good stuff during the campaign. Not necessarily because they want to (I think some of them seem more comfortable with it than others), but because we insist on it!

Whoever gets elected, I guarantee, will make a big speech sometime in their first couple of months in office to the effect of 'now that I've had a chance to really look at the numbers and go over them with my experts, we've been left in MUCH worse shape than I realized during the campaign, and here's what we have to do about it". I guarantee it. I obviously have more confidence in one candidate than the other to be able to deal with this challenge, but either will be up against enormous challenges and neither is likely to "succeed" relative to our collective expectations, and either is likely to be a one-term president. That's my guess anyway.

In terms of "spreading the wealth around", a huge boatload of lower and lower-middle class folks have been sacrificing for some time now, not voluntarily. They're not so much expecting everything to be hunky-dory for them but they'd like to know that the rest of us are going to share in the pain.

That's my take, anyway. We'll see.

-Ray

[soulspinner]

Yeah lets all forget that Joe the plummer was brought up and bantied by John the Liar...

despite the fact that the reality is that he'll pay more taxes under John...


But hey lets forget all that and keep up the cries of Terrorist and Socialist!

It will keep us from issues...



What bull**** this political crap is at this forum...
+1
You should be an umpire :p

[Climb01742]

3.1 million folks have donated. with an average donation of $86. $150 million contributed in september alone. on nov 4, folks will have their say. but it seems folks are already "voting" with their wallets, and in this economy, that's saying something. maybe this time, the little shots, not the big shots, will "buy" this election. :beer:

[Ray]

3.1 million folks have donated. with an average donation of $86. $150 million contributed in september alone. on nov 4, folks will have their say. but it seems folks are already "voting" with their wallets, and in this economy, that's saying something. maybe this time, the little shots, not the big shots, will "buy" this election. :beer:
Wow, I hadn't heard that. McCain may have Joe the plumber, but Obama's got a bunch of folks giving what they can and now he's got Colin Powell.

-Ray

[93legendti]

Wow, I hadn't heard that. McCain may have Joe the plumber, but Obama's got a bunch of folks giving what they can and now he's got Colin Powell.

-Ray
You can have him...he was the persuader for the Iraq War; he made the case to the U.N.; he's everything the liberal thugs pretend to be against. Why would his endorsement mean anything to liberals who want to be attacked and never defend themselves?

He also said the Israelis couldn't stop the terrorism of the 2000-2006 Intifada. Oops, like Obama on the Iraq War and troop funding and Obama and Biden on the surge, he was wrong.

As a hypocrite, he fits right in with the neo-liberals.

I can't imagine anyone really wants Biden as VP, geez, he's become mentally incompetent:

JOBS has 4 letters, not 3.
There IS clean coal.

France and US NEVER kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon.

Sen. Biden he "said to Barack get NATO in there" after he claimed France and US kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon. OK, one, it never happened. Two, a jr. senator from Illinois, does not control NATO, not even the US does.

Sen. Biden's claim that Mr. Obama "did not say he'd sit down with Ahmadinejad" without preconditions. Yet Mr. Biden himself criticized Mr. Obama on this point in 2007 at the National Press Club: "Would I make a blanket commitment to meet unconditionally with the leaders of each of those countries within the first year I was elected President? Absolutely, positively no."

His rewriting of Bosnia history to assert that John McCain didn't support President Clinton in the 1990s. Sen. McCain supported Pres. Clinton on Bosnia.

Sen. Biden invited Americans to join him at "Katie's restaurant" in Wilmington to witness middle-class struggles. Just one problem: Katie's closed in the 1980s.

Sen. Biden loves to brag that his helicopter was "forced down" on "the superhighway of terror." Actually, snow, not the enemy, persuaded the helicopter pilot to land and wait out a storm. Ask Sen. Kerry who was on the trip.

This is a man whose first presidential campaign collapsed 20 years ago after he told a story about coal miners in his family that he lifted without credit from a British politician - his SECOND episode of plagiarism.

In a recent speech in Virginia coal country, Biden embellished his background once again. He declared, "I am a hard coal miner," which he's not and never has been.

In his 1972 Senate campaign, Sen. Biden told Pennsylvania delegates at the Democratic convention that people from his hometown of Scranton, Pa., piled in up to 10 buses and drove to Wilmington, Del., to show him support. "Literally," he said, "there were hundreds of thousands of people/" And they got there in 10 buses. RIGHTTTTT.

But, hey, he TALKS well. And that's the new liberalism. Vote for candidates that talk well and, in between outrageous lies, say something you like.

Anyone want to meet me for brunch at Katie's? We can have the Biden Sandwich: 2 slices of bread with nothing between the slices. :D

[johnnymossville]

"In 1929 Roosevelt got on tv and talked to the American People about the Crash." -- Joe the Senator

"Katie gushes and wets the floor under her chair."

Proof: If it sounds good it works for me!!!! = Modern Liberalism.


Doesn't matter the whole biden statement is completely false, like much of Obama's Autobiography. Theoretical, like a college professor.

[93legendti]

"In 1929 Roosevelt got on tv and talked to the American People about the Crash." -- Joe the Senator

"Katie gushes and wets the floor under her chair."

Proof: If it sounds good it works for me!!!! = Modern Liberalism.


Doesn't matter the whole biden statement is completely false, like much of Obama's Autobiography. Theoretical, like a college professor.

TV in '29 - amazing. FDR President in '29 - amazing. Imagine if a Repub had said those things. The NY Times would go ballistic.

[johnnymossville]

TV in '29 - amazing. FDR President in '29 - amazing. Imagine if a Repub had said those things. The NY Times would go ballistic.

But if Obama said them, The NYT would go find a story of some guy who had an early working TV from 29 where he and Roosevelt got together as young lads and played with it for fun. You know, did speeches and stuff.

[Spinner]

...what you opened.

[zmudshark]

TV in '29 - amazing. FDR President in '29 - amazing. Imagine if a Repub had said those things. The NY Times would go ballistic.FWIW, Roosevelt did appear on TV in 1939, perhaps just an error on Biden's part, like McCain addressing his 'fellow prisoners' at a recent speech.

I don't think any of the candidates have had much sleep lately, and an occasional mistake speaking is bound to happen.

If you want to nitpick, there is a head lice outbreak in Michigan, nitpickers are needed in your local schools :D

[Ti Designs]

Can someone please explain to me how this negative stuff works? Well, not so much how it works, but how it works on the general population (and a couple of forum members)??? OK, I get the choise of two, eliminate one idea, but working by that you could elect the biggest idiot - opps, that's been done.

Elections come down to who can promise the most to the population with a straight face. Debates come down to who can memorize the most statistics about the other guy's record. Spin comes down to looking at facts on the surface and compiling data based on that. There's no depth to any of this crap.

Here's an idea: Take the example of how much men vs. women make in the two camps, break it down to individual salaries and include number of hours worked and a job description for each one. But who looks at things with that kind of depth? Maybe the american public should start to demand some depth in these campaigns, starting with clear plans from the two candidates on the major issues. They both have plans, but nothing fits together. Spending $4 for every 1$ of revenue isn't my idea of a plan.

My bottom line is that both candidates fail the economy, and since I have to live in this economy that's what matters to me. Because one of the two makes a few mistakes on pointless facts does not make the other one better suited for the job. If the job in question was game show host I wouldn't care, but...

[Ahneida Ride]

A buddy of mine runs a small local business of about 30 employees.
(a perturbation of the plumbing business)

He started once to relate to me some of his monthly operational expenses.
They are truly astronomical. I am still in shock. I kid you not.

I doubt that 250k frn would even keep him afloat for one month.
And he is just a small fry.

In NYC just a nice one room studio can easily run 3K a month.
So 100K in many areas after taxes is subsistence living.

[BoulderGeek]

On this and other forums I frequent, I have found that I like the personalities of forumites much more when I don't know their political leanings.

The anger, hatred and plain untruths thrown around really cause me to lose respect for personas which I once appreciated.

[rwsaunders]

Wow, I hadn't heard that. McCain may have Joe the plumber, but Obama's got a bunch of folks giving what they can and now he's got Colin Powell.

-Ray

I have always found it interesting; the individuals who come out late in a campaign (in this case less than 3 weeks before the election) to endorse a candidate. I would have more respect if they offered their support early in a campaign, when it's needed most. That's politics I guess.

I should have added that I'm RWSaunders and I approved this message. :cool:

[Louis]

On this and other forums I frequent, I have found that I like the personalities of forumites much more when I don't know their political leanings.

BG, and to think I used to like you. Now I've concluded that you're a bum.


Just kidding. I couldn't agree more. IF we are going to have issues I'd rather we have foaming-at-the-mouth disagreements about cycling. For some reason it seems less personal.

BTW

Campy sucks :p

[fiamme red]

TV in '29 - amazing. FDR President in '29 - amazing. Imagine if a Repub had said those things. The NY Times would go ballistic.Isn't Dubya a Republican? Then again, it would be a little tedious if the NYT went ballistic every time he misspoke.

http://www.dubyaspeak.com/historian.phtml

[ti_boi]

On this and other forums I frequent, I have found that I like the personalities of forumites much more when I don't know their political leanings.

The anger, hatred and plain untruths thrown around really cause me to lose respect for personas which I once appreciated.


I used to really like Ramses. I wanted to become him! But it turns out, he's a real douche.

[BBB]

According to the internets many of you have lost the plot... :)

www.theage.com.au/opinion/calling-the-prejudice-around-barack-obama-by-its-true-name-20081019-541r.html?page=-1

[cadence90]

:)
Makes it clear why ACORN and The One have to resort to fraud to steal the election, because our Nation rejects his notion of "spread the wealth" with other people's money.

The One indeed. :)Wow, I'm having 2 déjà vus at once, what with Florida 2000 (fraud???) and then because we know this line is exactly what we'll hear from the McCampaign in the next couple of weeks, except I hope that Mc's at least smart enough not to use the "That one..." line again.

Last desperate measure. Too bad, because the negative stuff won't wash this year.

The McCain team has made the fatal mistake (and continues to do so) of painting O as the man not qualified to be POTUS, rather than proving that their man is qualified.


3.1 million folks have donated. with an average donation of $86. $150 million contributed in september alone. on nov 4, folks will have their say. but it seems folks are already "voting" with their wallets, and in this economy, that's saying something. maybe this time, the little shots, not the big shots, will "buy" this election. :beer:Exactly.

1) The 2 candidates have raised a total of +/- $659,318,545.00 to date.
In a nation of 229,053,806 people of voting age and over, that's $2.88/voter for the entire 18 month campaign or +/- the cost of 1.5 gallons of U.S. gasoline for 18 months; that = 16 cents per month or 25 cents less than 1 U. S. postage stamp per month; if you divide that by 30 days (1 month) that equals 0.0053 cents a day per person (1/2 of 1 cent per day).
Not so staggering in that light, right?

2) Obama has raised 94% of his $429,618,723.00 to date through individual contributions; 0% ($450.00) from PACS; and 6% ($27,152,882.00) through "other".
TOTAL = $454,000,000.00. http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/summary.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638

McCain has raised 80% of his $184,758,250.00 through individual contributions; 1% ($1,346,385.00) through PACS; and 19% ($43,985,187.00) through "other".
TOTAL = $229,699,822.00.
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/summary.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00006424

3) By comparison: McDonald's has sold 5.25 million hamburgers (only hamburgers) in the last 18 months (campaign) in the U. S. alone, at, say, an average cost of $2.00 for the burger alone (no fries or drink) = $10,500,000.00....
How do you like them "Royales with cheese"?


Wow, I hadn't heard that. McCain may have Joe the plumber, but Obama's got a bunch of folks giving what they can and now he's got Colin Powell.

-RayNot only that (which was huge, imho), but this morning George Will and Newt (yes, that Newt) Gingrich (http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=10279341&ch=4226716&src=news) were hardly supportive of McCain.


You can have him....
As a hypocrite, he fits right in with the neo-liberals...outrageous lies....First, thanks, we'll take him.
Second, what, no hypocrites or outrageous lies on the other side? None at all? :confused:


Maybe Joe the Plumber will get the job of repiping all of Mc's 7 (?) homes when this is all done. I have no idea, but I guess, that 7 McMansions will put Joe firmly over the 250K. On the other hand, that hopefully should cover the back taxes and and an upgrade to a Limited Meivici.

[rounder]

NOBODY, on their own, has a clue how to fix the problems. Hopefully either guy will surround themselves with the people most likely to be able to help him figure it out and he'll be able to lead us through the minefields ahead. And EVERY election is the "feel good election" - the last candidates that tried to run on anything even approaching sacrifice were Carter and Mondale and they got their asses handed to them. Every candidate figures they have to get elected before they can do any of the things they hope will make a difference. So they have to lie to us or tell us feel good stuff during the campaign. Not necessarily because they want to (I think some of them seem more comfortable with it than others), but because we insist on it!

Whoever gets elected, I guarantee, will make a big speech sometime in their first couple of months in office to the effect of 'now that I've had a chance to really look at the numbers and go over them with my experts, we've been left in MUCH worse shape than I realized during the campaign, and here's what we have to do about it". I guarantee it. I obviously have more confidence in one candidate than the other to be able to deal with this challenge, but either will be up against enormous challenges and neither is likely to "succeed" relative to our collective expectations, and either is likely to be a one-term president. That's my guess anyway.

In terms of "spreading the wealth around", a huge boatload of lower and lower-middle class folks have been sacrificing for some time now, not voluntarily. They're not so much expecting everything to be hunky-dory for them but they'd like to know that the rest of us are going to share in the pain.

That's my take, anyway. We'll see.

-Ray

Ray,

I agree with most of what you said but I have a problem with the part where the candidates should first try to get elected and then explain to the peple where we are. I think that demonstrates a lack of leadership which is what it will take to get out of this situation.

I know that J. Carter lost the election when he tried to explain where we were. I have a lot of respect for J. Carter, but he is the one who gave us double digit inflation and a prime rate of 23 %. He also gave us the odd/even gas lines and 55 mph. And also, he lost to R. Reagan who was no slouch.

I know that running on a program that stays focussed to your message will help concentrate everyone to your message and help get you elected. To me though, it is being cynical and does not provide an honest position of what you believe in and where you will go once elected. I believe that what we are going through these days is extraordinary compared to recent political elections. I would like to see someone step up and say...hey, things have changed and we need to do something about it. I know i promised to blah...blah...blah, but first we need to do this.

I work in d.c. where most things are political. I was reading the other day that congress is getting ready to to come back and reconvene for a short session in November. They want to introduce and pass a $300 stimulus package (i believe). The idea is to give a hotshot to the economy. I know that i am getting more cynicalo these days, but i believe the timing has to do with the fact that they are all running for reelection. Anyway.

rounder

[Ray]

Ray,

I agree with most of what you said but I have a problem with the part where the candidates should first try to get elected and then explain to the peple where we are. I think that demonstrates a lack of leadership which is what it will take to get out of this situation.

I know that J. Carter lost the election when he tried to explain where we were. I have a lot of respect for J. Carter, but he is the one who gave us double digit inflation and a prime rate of 23 %. He also gave us the odd/even gas lines and 55 mph. And also, he lost to R. Reagan who was no slouch.

I know that running on a program that stays focussed to your message will help concentrate everyone to your message and help get you elected. To me though, it is being cynical and does not provide an honest position of what you believe in and where you will go once elected. I believe that what we are going through these days is extraordinary compared to recent political elections. I would like to see someone step up and say...hey, things have changed and we need to do something about it. I know i promised to blah...blah...blah, but first we need to do this.

I work in d.c. where most things are political. I was reading the other day that congress is getting ready to to come back and reconvene for a short session in November. They want to introduce and pass a $300 stimulus package (i believe). The idea is to give a hotshot to the economy. I know that i am getting more cynicalo these days, but i believe the timing has to do with the fact that they are all running for reelection. Anyway.

rounder
Rounder, I totally agree with you about what they SHOULD do - I was talking about what they CAN do.

Carter was preaching getting by with less to reduce our fundamental addiction to middle eastern oil. Reagan was promising a continuation of the party thrown on cheap energy. Yeah, Reagan was an immensely talented politician but he won by being sunny and optimistic when Carter was being honest about how we could move forward in a sustainable manner. Think of how much better shape we'd be in today if we'd taken Carter's slightly bitter cough syrup then rather than the chemotherapy we're going to have to undergo now. But Reagan kicked his ass because he told us what we wanted to hear. Then in 1984 Mondale told us that both he and Reagan would have to raise taxes but he was the only one being honest about it. Reagan talked about morning in America and shining cities on the hill and kicked Mondale's ass (and, yep, he raised taxes).

That's the last time any CANDIDATE has tried real direct honesty, at least a general election candidate. Someone always tries to be honest in the primaries and they never get out of the primaries. Paul Tsongas and Bruce Babbitt come to mind on the Dem side, and Republicans have done it to. They just don't get anywhere. Because, again, to quote Jack Nicholson, "We don't want the truth - we can't HANDLE the truth"! They'll try to tell us the truth to the extent that we'll listen once they're in office, but to unilaterally start talking sense now would just be political suicide. They know that, and they know that they can't do anything useful at all if they don't get elected first. Sad fact of life. I blame us, not them.

I wish that wasn't the case but it is. I wish I could climb like Lance Armstrong too. Can't seem to though. Maybe if things get bad enough, enough people will crave honesty to make it happen. But I have my doubts.

-Ray

[93legendti]

Speaking of the truth, this tidbit crossed my desk yesterday:

Top ten poverty cities

What do the top ten cities with the highest poverty rate all have in common?

Detroit , MI **(1st on the poverty rate list**) hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1961.

Buffalo, NY **(2nd**) hasn't elected one since 1954;

Cincinnati , OH **(3rd**)...since 1984;

Cleveland , OH **(4th**)...since 1989;

Miami , FL **(5th**) has never had a Republican mayor;

St. Louis , MO **(6th**)....since 1949;

El Paso , TX **(7th**) has never had a Republican mayor;

Milwaukee , WI **(8th**)...since 1908;

Philadelphia , PA **(9th**)...since 1952;

Newark , NJ **(10th**)...since 1907.

Having lived in or near Detroit all my life, I know the bit about Detroit to be true. If true as to the other 9 cities, what a stunning correlation between poverty and long term Democratic control. Must be a coincidence. :)

[johnnymossville]

Speaking of the truth, this tidbit crossed my desk yesterday:

[I]Top ten poverty cities

What do the top ten cities with the highest poverty rate all have in common? ...

The country as a whole is heading the same way unfortunately. Exactly where they want us to be.

[William]

Speaking of the truth, this tidbit crossed my desk yesterday:

[I]Top ten poverty cities....

What do the top ten cities with the highest poverty rate all have in common?

Having lived in or near Detroit all my life, I know the bit about Detroit to be true. If true as to the other 9 cities, what a stunning correlation between poverty and long term Democratic control. Must be a coincidence. :)


Another true tidbit.....

A Republican administration was at the helm both times the economy tanked...first the great depression, and today......

What a stunning correlation between economic panic and Republican control. Must be a coincidence. :)




William ;)

[michael white]

Speaking of the truth, this tidbit crossed my desk yesterday:

Top ten poverty cities

What do the top ten cities with the highest poverty rate all have in common?

Detroit , MI **(1st on the poverty rate list**) hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1961.

Buffalo, NY **(2nd**) hasn't elected one since 1954;

Cincinnati , OH **(3rd**)...since 1984;

Cleveland , OH **(4th**)...since 1989;

Miami , FL **(5th**) has never had a Republican mayor;

St. Louis , MO **(6th**)....since 1949;

El Paso , TX **(7th**) has never had a Republican mayor;

Milwaukee , WI **(8th**)...since 1908;

Philadelphia , PA **(9th**)...since 1952;

Newark , NJ **(10th**)...since 1907.

Having lived in or near Detroit all my life, I know the bit about Detroit to be true. If true as to the other 9 cities, what a stunning correlation between poverty and long term Democratic control. Must be a coincidence. :)

on the other hand, all of those "correlations" put together pale to laughable insignifance compared to the correlation at the federal level between the chicken hawk morons and the complete breakdown of America on every level. The last real redblooded intelligent Republican civil servant on earth just endorsed Obama, at the same exact time Oliver Stone was making ten million bucks lampooning Bush as a fool, and also while the GOP VP was making a really humorous public ass of herself for the "liberal media." Oh well, it's clear these are tough times to be a Republican; it's not easy for y'all to keep your heads :) above the waters of coherence. Keep on laughing.

[93legendti]

Another true tidbit.....

A Republican administration was at the helm both times the economy tanked...first the great depression, and today......

What a stunning correlation between economic panic and Republican control. Must be a coincidence. :)




William ;)

Ahem, Congress has been controlled by Democrats since 2006;
the acts that led to the crisis were signed by Democratic Presidents;
the culprits in this mess, Fannie and Freddie, bribed Democrats (Dodd, Frank and Obama) to keep the ball rolling;
Barney Frank's stated intention was to make housing affordable. He got his wish.

[William]

Ahem, Congress has been controlled by Democrats since 2006;
the acts that led to the crisis were signed by Democratic Presidents;
the culprits in this mess, Fannie and Freddie, bribed Democrats (Dodd, Frank and Obama) to keep the ball rolling;
Barney Frank's stated intention was to make housing affordable. He got his wish.


And the last eight years of a Republican administration and Republican run congress before 2006 did nothing (zip, zero, nada) to correct a democratic problem (as you state it). As a matter of fact....they helped it along just fine on their own.




William :)



William

[93legendti]

And the last eight years of a Republican administration and Republican run congress before 2006 did nothing (zip, zero, nada) to correct a democratic problem (as you state it). As a matter of fact....they helped it along just fine on their own.




William :)



William
At least we agree it was a Democratic problem. :)

[michael white]

[QUOTE=93legendti]Ahem, Congress has been controlled by Democrats since 2006;
the acts that led to the crisis were signed by Democratic Presidents;
the culprits in this mess, Fannie and Freddie, bribed Democrats (Dodd, Frank and Obama) to keep the ball rolling;
Barney Frank's stated intention was to make housing affordable. He got his wish.[/QU
that's wonderful. Like I said, keep on laughing. We haven't had a super majority for what, eighty something years? and we very well might have one because of what, the success of the past few years?

Look, here's all I'm saying. You're the one pointing your finger. You're the one with the problem. I don't see any Democrats coming on here and tallying up the massive numbers of GOP sex offenders and whatnot. This would be the time for all good Republicans to suck it up, grow a spine, and stop with the lisping, soft-bellied fingerpointing. You've gotten no mileage out of it. Rove has led you to oblivion.

best,
mw

[William]

At least we agree it was a Democratic problem. :)


:) I put in parenthesis: (as you state it).





William :D

[johnnymossville]

And the last eight years of a Republican administration and Republican run congress before 2006 did nothing (zip, zero, nada) to correct a democratic problem (as you state it). As a matter of fact....they helped it along just fine on their own.




William :)



William

Actually, The Bush administration did warn congress that something needed to be done (Just like they tried with Social Security), but never pushed it enough. Everyone's home values at the time were artificially shooting through the roof so people were thinking the orgy would never end, Republicans included, unfortunately.

So yeah, both parties can definitely take some blame, but there were warnings.

[93legendti]

[QUOTE=93legendti]Ahem, Congress has been controlled by Democrats since 2006;
the acts that led to the crisis were signed by Democratic Presidents;
the culprits in this mess, Fannie and Freddie, bribed Democrats (Dodd, Frank and Obama) to keep the ball rolling;
Barney Frank's stated intention was to make housing affordable. He got his wish.[/QU
that's wonderful. Like I said, keep on laughing. We haven't had a super majority for what, eighty something years? and we very well might have one because of what, the success of the past few years?

Look, here's all I'm saying. You're the one pointing your finger. You're the one with the problem. I don't see any Democrats coming on here and tallying up the massive numbers of GOP sex offenders and whatnot. This would be the time for all good Republicans to suck it up, grow a spine, and stop with the lisping, soft-bellied fingerpointing. You've gotten no mileage out of it. Rove has led you to oblivion.

best,
mw
Please feel free. Make sure you list Rep. Mahoney and his 3 affairs, Sen. Edwards; Pres. Clinton and his affairs; Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick and Gov. Eliott Spitzer, (to name a few) ok? :D

[johnnymossville]

...This would be the time for all good Republicans to suck it up, grow a spine...

best,
mw

I'm going to agree with you completely on at least this part. Republicans do indeed need to suck it up and start acting like conservatives again.

[michael white]

[QUOTE=michael white]
Please feel free. Make sure you list Rep. Mahoney and his 3 affairs, Sen. Edwards; Pres. Clinton and his affairs; Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick and Gov. Eliott Spitzer, (to name a few) ok? :D

I agree. I don't care for politicians, and believe me, I feel the above mentioned met their due.

[93legendti]

[QUOTE=93legendti]

I agree. I don't care for politicians, and believe me, I feel the above mentioned met their due.
Then we agree twice, because I like leaders but despise politicians. I also wish conservativess would start acting like conservatives again.

[Tobias]

Rounder, I totally agree with you about what they SHOULD do - I was talking about what they CAN do.
.......snipped..........
I wish that wasn't the case but it is. I wish I could climb like Lance Armstrong too. Can't seem to though. Maybe if things get bad enough, enough people will crave honesty to make it happen. But I have my doubts.

-RayRay, please keep expressing your views in support of Democrats. Although I disagree with some of your views I enjoy reading your posts because they are well thought out, well written, and you avoid hate and meanness. Some of the stuff expressed here at both ends of the spectrum is so out of touch with reality that it carries no credibility whatsoever to most in the middle. I hope that in the long run you will be a good example to both extremes.

Regarding your posts numbers 41 and 61 (I won’t copy since they are lengthy) I’m glad to see you acknowledge that telling the truth is not possible and still get elected. On that we agree completely – he who is best at distorting or outright concealing the truth will likely win. This required talent reminded me of a study that demonstrated that leaders like CEOs were generally more convincing when required to lie than average people. Some talent :rolleyes:

Anyway, a while back when McCain was doing better and you thought he might have a chance of winning; you accused me of posturing by trying to diminish realistic expectations when I said that he couldn’t possibly fix problems that started a generation ago.

It might seem like déjà vu all over again in reverse, but your posts certainly seem to be implying that Obama really can’t do much of what he promised early on. Who would have thunk? :rolleyes: Without a doubt at least 2/3 of the people are buying 1/2 of the BS hook, line and sinker (the farthest 1/3 to the left buys 100 percent of the liberal agenda and ignore the rest while the farthest 1/3 to the right buys 100 percent of the conservative agenda and ignore the rest; leaving the middle 1/3 wondering how the other 2/3 can be so naïve and/or myopic). :confused:

I have to give the Obama camp credit for running a brilliant campaign. Now that the election is over he seems to be shifting a little from the “eternal optimist” to a little more pragmatic position to tone down expectations. It’s smart…….and it seems you are following the lead. ;)

Keep up the good work of expressing your views respectfully.

[Ray]

Anyway, a while back when McCain was doing better and you thought he might have a chance of winning; you accused me of posturing by trying to diminish realistic expectations when I said that he couldn’t possibly fix problems that started a generation ago.
I have absolutely no memory of making that accusation, but I don't doubt that I made it. (I don't remember much of the '70s, either, but I've been assured i was there :cool: ). But since I don't remember it, I have no idea what point I was trying to make, or what point you thought I was trying to make, or whether the two were the same. :beer:

But for the record, I don't think either McCain or Obama can FIX the mess we're in now. I think Obama probably understands the way the world is changing in a way that makes him better equipped to help us work through it and deal with the implications. I don't think I've ever bought anything a politician told us hook, line, and sinker, including Obama. My enthusiasm for him does not mean I exempt him from the class (politician, that is). I think he's an extraordinarily good one and has the brains, pragmatism, and ability to move people that gives him the potential to be a damn good president. Maybe even better than that. Or he could be a dismal failure. That's always the risk, but I personally think its a bigger risk with McCain, given what I see as his well developed world view of how things have worked over the past 40 years or so and how they should have, which I suspect would greatly influence how he'd attempt to set us up for the next 40 and those are gonna look very very different. I respect a difference of opinion on that.

But, as I've also said a number of times, I think the challenges we're facing and the likely inability of ANY president to restore us to our long held position of global dominance AND unrealistic prosperity means we're likely in for a series of one-term presidents until the population realizes that we have to seriously adjust our expectations. And that's if they do a GOOD job!

And I still don't think its over. I think its looking like Obama will probably win, but I've seen things turn pretty quickly in politics and Obama is just hovering around 50% in most polls. I think most people that were convinceable have already been convinced, unless the Powell endorsement really makes a difference to some fence sitters. But I think most of the undecided voters end up with McCain and Obama probably wins, but pretty narrowly. But I don't think that's even close to a sure thing. McCain could still win very narrowly or Obama's ground game could overwhelm all predictions and maybe he wins semi-big. We'll see. But I'm not counting any chickens!

I have to give the Obama camp credit for running a brilliant campaign. Now that the election is over he seems to be shifting a little from the “eternal optimist” to a little more pragmatic position to tone down expectations. It’s smart…….and it seems you are following the lead. ;) He realizes that if he gets elected he's gonna have to govern and he's trying to set the stage for that. He's been talking a lot more about sacrifice lately, albeit in muted tones because he still hasn't won. I don't think what I'm saying has changed that much, but I'm probably wrong - I don't remember what I say or write from day to day. It *feels* consistent from inside my head, but that doesn't mean it sounds that way out there in the world. Thanks for keeping me honest :cool:

Keep up the good work of expressing your views respectfully. I'm sure I slip sometimes, but I really really try to avoid spewing talking points. I don't like it when folks on my side do that and I don't like it when folks on the other side do it. If I want that kind of venom, I can just watch Fox News and/or MSNBC. I like talking to folks around here about this stuff, but just shooting insults back and forth is pretty useless and, for lack of a better word, impolite.

-Ray

[Tobias]

I like talking to folks around here about this stuff, but just shooting insults back and forth is pretty useless and, for lack of a better word, impolite.

-Ray+1

Trust me, it’s over.

As for the Powell endorsement itself, it’s disappointing for me because I’ve admired Powell for a long time, and would have liked him to run as a moderate – I would have supported him. I stated that a long time ago. He’s smart, courageous, and seems to have lots of common sense.

However, I doubt his support for Obama will carry much weight – not that he needs it at this point. Strictly speaking based on statistical evidence, I think most non-black Americans have come to expect that essentially all blacks will support Obama (subject was covered again on GMA this AM). In that light, when Powell endorsed Obama a lot of Americans will question the significance of race. May not be fair, but it’s unavoidable.

[fiamme red]

However, I doubt his support for Obama will carry much weight – not that he needs it at this point. Strictly speaking based on statistical evidence, I think most non-black Americans have come to expect that essentially all blacks will support Obama (subject was covered again on GMA this AM). In that light, when Powell endorsed Obama a lot of Americans will question the significance of race. May not be fair, but it’s unavoidable.To bring this back on-topic, many Republicans are saying that they'd rather have Joe the Plumber's endorsement than Colin Powell's! :rolleyes:

http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2008/10/20/colin-powell-versus-joe-the-plumber-whos-more-powerful/

[Ray]

Trust me, it’s over.

As for the Powell endorsement itself, it’s disappointing for me because I’ve admired Powell for a long time, and would have liked him to run as a moderate – I would have supported him. I stated that a long time ago. He’s smart, courageous, and seems to have lots of common sense.

However, I doubt his support for Obama will carry much weight – not that he needs it at this point. Strictly speaking based on statistical evidence, I think most non-black Americans have come to expect that essentially all blacks will support Obama (subject was covered again on GMA this AM). In that light, when Powell endorsed Obama a lot of Americans will question the significance of race. May not be fair, but it’s unavoidable.
Hey, I trust you, but what can you offer by way of a guarantee? Money back? A do-over? A shoulder to cry on? I trust you, but I don't trust those fence-sitting voters not to be wildly schizophrenic. But, lord knows, I hope you're right!

No doubt about how a lot of people view the Powell thing. It obviously doesn't help him among blacks, who will support him slightly more overwhelmingly than they did Gore or Kerry or Clinton. But it may also swing a handful of moderates who just weren't quite ready to jump on Commander in Chief credentials. And it might help with some military people. I don't know. The last polling I saw showed Obama was actually tied or slightly ahead even among whites. Which is a pretty amazing data point for ANY Democrat, regardless of their color. The guy has political chops - I hope we get to see how good his governing chops are.

-Ray

[michael white]

And it might help with some military people. I don't know. -Ray

Trust me on this: there are states full of military people, like the one where I live, a few of which are also battleground states, and in those places, with those people, this is the biggest endorsement of the campaign. There is no other hero like Gen. Powell--Obama or McCain are themselves very small potatoes, in comparison, to military families.

There are also people like my brother. Let me say a few things about my brother, my younger brother. He's a great dad, a great athlete, a cop, now a "special investigator" for the DA in my hometown, back in Mo, also a battleground state. Now, my brother, as many law and order types are, is a staunch Republican (we do have civilized discussions) and hasn't wavered through his adult life and his rather legendary career back there in Mo. He told me a couple of months ago that he would vote McCain, but was not at all happy about it.

My brother's firstborn is named Colin. See, Powell is the greatest hero on God's green earth to my brother.

[Climb01742]

Trust me on this: there are states full of military people, like the one where I live, a few of which are also battleground states, and in those places, with those people, this is the biggest endorsement of the campaign. There is no other hero like Gen. Powell--Obama or McCain are themselves very small potatoes, in comparison, to military families.

There are also people like my brother. Let me say a few things about my brother, my younger brother. He's a great dad, a great athlete, a cop, now a "special investigator" for the DA in my hometown, back in Mo, also a battleground state. Now, my brother, as many law and order types are, is a staunch Republican (we do have civilized discussions) and hasn't wavered through his adult life and his rather legendary career back there in Mo. He told me a couple of months ago that he would vote McCain, but was not at all happy about it.

My brother's firstborn is named Colin. See, Powell is the greatest hero on God's green earth to my brother.

michael, what's your guess about which way NC will go?

[93legendti]

Say it ain't so Joe.
Sen. Biden stated today that he guaranteed that if Obama is elected President he will be tested by an international event within 6 months.

[michael white]

jeez, I don't know. Up to about a week or two ago, I did not think Obama had a chance. I even told friends Obama would not win while I was sitting at the front desk of a big Obama rally, collecting contact info. Looks like now I might have been wrong. I have been through a few elections here, and this one is different in every way.

[Ray]

jeez, I don't know. Up to about a week or two ago, I did not think Obama had a chance. I even told friends Obama would not win while I was sitting at the front desk of a big Obama rally, collecting contact info. Looks like now I might have been wrong. I have been through a few elections here, and this one is different in every way.
Pollster calls it a toss-up and shows Obama up about 2 in their composite. New polling today has Obama up 51-44, but is just one poll. So, who knows. Its certainly on the table. But if he wins NC, it probably means he also won Virginia and Florida and, at that point, he wouldn't need it.

-Ray

[Tobias]

There are also people like my brother. Let me say a few things about my brother, my younger brother. He's a great dad, a great athlete, a cop, now a "special investigator" for the DA in my hometown, back in Mo, also a battleground state. Now, my brother, as many law and order types are, is a staunch Republican (we do have civilized discussions) and hasn't wavered through his adult life and his rather legendary career back there in Mo. He told me a couple of months ago that he would vote McCain, but was not at all happy about it.
Please tell us again what you really think of your brother. :rolleyes: Sorry, it just made me laugh. ;)

on the other hand, all of those "correlations" put together pale to laughable insignifance compared to the correlation at the federal level between the chicken hawk morons and the complete breakdown of America on every level. The last real redblooded intelligent Republican man on earth just endorsed Obama, at the same exact time Oliver Stone was making ten million bucks lampooning Bush as a fool, and also while the GOP VP was making a really humorous public ass of herself for the "liberal media." Oh well, it's clear these are tough times to be a Republican; it's not easy for y'all to keep your heads :) above the waters of coherence. Keep on laughing.

[michael white]

you seem to be laughing a lot these days.

I have class in a few minutes, but I went back and fixed it.

best,
mw

[Tobias]

you seem to be laughing a lot these days.Yes, what else is left? Nothing personal, it’s just that a little laughter and the thought that eventually we’ll hit bottom keeps me sane.

This “political” mess reminds me of a lame movie (can’t remember the details) where the protagonist is trying to save the damsel in distress on a runaway train. Problem is that the brakes don’t work and there is no way to stop or slow the train before it crashes into the end of the tunnel and kills them both.

Like in the movie, I feel I’m in the train and neither Republicans nor Democrats want to face up to the fact that the real underlying problem with most things wrong with the country can be traced back – directly or indirectly -- to entitlement programs and other well-intentioned social programs we want but can’t afford. It’s not a matter of arguing whether they are needed or worthwhile (I’ll concede up front they are all greatly needed), but rather on how to stop or reduce them now that we clearly can’t afford them.

I honestly fear that Obama with a Democratic congress will make great changes in adding to social programs in the direction that got us in this mess in the first place – now representing an unfunded amount in the vicinity of $100 trillion. That’s over one million US dollars per family of four. And yes, I’m aware of the little stuff like debt and interest on the debt brought on by Republican spending also; but I doubt the "cold blooded SOBs" care enough about the poor, old, and the sick to want to help them to the point of bringing down the house.

BTW, in the movie the protagonist figures out that since he can’t stop the train, accelerating it (in Hollywood fantasy style) will make it jump off the tracks which makes the wreck more survivable than hitting the end of the tunnel. That’s why I now hope Obama wins – I want him to get on the throttle and force the derailment ASAP. Maybe then we'll face reality.

[Blue Jays]

Serotta_Pete:

Just heard that Joe The Plumber will be interviewed on WABC radio @ 5:00 p.m. EDT.
Can you call 1-800-941-7326 to speak to him from an official Serotta perspective to learn which other model/year Serottas he currently owns?
That would be awesome to hear about Serotta bicycles live on the air! Go for it! Where did you initially learn he has one of the coolest bikes on the planet?

[Flat Out]

Ray, please keep expressing your views in support of Democrats. Although I disagree with some of your views I enjoy reading your posts because they are well thought out, well written, and you avoid hate and meanness. Some of the stuff expressed here at both ends of the spectrum is so out of touch with reality that it carries no credibility whatsoever to most in the middle. I hope that in the long run you will be a good example to both extremes.

Imagine that. Two people who disagree yet can have a respectful discussion about their disagreements. You guys rock... and frankly are probably both better men than I. God bless.

[93legendti]

From yahoo.com:

“Mark my words,” the Democratic vice presidential nominee warned at the second of his two Seattle fundraisers Sunday. “It will not be six months before the world tests Barack Obama like they did John Kennedy. The world is looking. We’re about to elect a brilliant 47-year-old senator president of the United States of America. Remember I said it standing here if you don’t remember anything else I said. Watch, we’re gonna have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy.”

“I can give you at least four or five scenarios from where it might originate,” Biden said to Emerald City supporters, mentioning the Middle East and Russia as possibilities. “And he’s gonna need help. And the kind of help he’s gonna need is, he’s gonna need you - not financially to help him - we’re gonna need you to use your influence, your influence within the community, to stand with him. Because it’s not gonna be apparent initially, it’s not gonna be apparent that we’re right.”

Isn’t this an argument for electing someone with more experience? Why should we elect a man who will embolden our enemies and push us to the brink of disaster? Biden seems convinced that electing John McCain will make our enemies abroad much less sanguine about provoking us — which is one of the best arguments yet heard for electing McCain.

Even worse, Biden admits that an Obama administration will likely fumble the ball. “It’s not going to be apparent that we’re right.” Really? Why not? I’d say that Biden admits that Obama will deviate from long-held principles of American foreign policy and diplomacy, and expects to reap a whirlwind of disapproval because of that. Where will that be most likely to occur, given Obama’s previous political alliances with people like Rashid Khalidi?

Let’s not forget the example that Biden himself uses here. John Kennedy got tested because he met with Nikita Khrushchev with “no preconditions”. Kennedy acknowledged afterwards that it was an “unmitigated disaster“:

Kennedy’s aides convinced the press at the time that behind closed doors the president was performing well, but American diplomats in attendance, including the ambassador to the Soviet Union, later said they were shocked that Kennedy had taken so much abuse. Paul Nitze, the assistant secretary of defense, said the meeting was “just a disaster.” Khrushchev’s aide, after the first day, said the American president seemed “very inexperienced, even immature.” Khrushchev agreed, noting that the youthful Kennedy was “too intelligent and too weak.” The Soviet leader left Vienna elated — and with a very low opinion of the leader of the free world.
Kennedy’s assessment of his own performance was no less severe. Only a few minutes after parting with Khrushchev, Kennedy, a World War II veteran, told James Reston of The New York Times that the summit meeting had been the “roughest thing in my life.” Kennedy went on: “He just beat the hell out of me. I’ve got a terrible problem if he thinks I’m inexperienced and have no guts. Until we remove those ideas we won’t get anywhere with him.”

[johnnymossville]

Biden and his big mouth. What a complete idiot. I can't believe he would telegraph something like this a few days after they (McCain/Palin, Obama/Biden) were given top secret briefings on international affairs.

Making excuses for something that hasn't happened yet. One thing is clear, he's made it obvious it will be a test on Obama, and not George Bush, so I guess they won't be able to blame Bush for whatever "IT" is.

What a goofball Biden is.


I better print up my "Don't blame me, I voted for McCain!" bumper stickers now then. Thanks Joe!

[93legendti]

Biden and his big mouth. What a complete idiot. I can't believe he would telegraph something like this a few days after they (McCain/Palin, Obama/Biden) were given top secret briefings on international affairs.

Making excuses for something that hasn't happened yet. One thing is clear, he's made it obvious it will be a test on Obama, and not George Bush, so I guess they won't be able to blame Bush for whatever "IT" is.

What a goofball Biden is.

I can't decide if he is senile or he just doesn't want to be V.P. and he doesn't want B.O. to win. Nothing else can explain the repeated stupid things he says.

Sen. Biden is the self-proclaimed EXPERT on foreign policy. So there is no parsing these words and no spinning. There's no it was "taken out of context":

“Mark my words,”... Remember I said it standing here if you don’t remember anything else I said. Watch, we’re gonna have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy.”...“And he’s gonna need help...we’re gonna need you to use your influence, your influence within the community, to stand with him. Because it’s not gonna be apparent initially, it’s not gonna be apparent that we’re right.”

[johnnymossville]

well, he did say Hillary would've been a better choice.

[93legendti]

This just in about B.O. and his pal:

]"Barack Obama, who has consistently downplayed his relationship with William Ayers during his presidential campaign, once gave a glowing endorsement of a book by the former domestic terrorist and was mentioned by name in the book itself[/B].

A blogger unearthed the Dec. 21, 1997, endorsement in the Chicago Tribune and posted photographs of the praise for Ayers' book on Zombietime.com Saturday.

Featured next to a smiling photograph of himself, then-State Senator Obama called Ayers' book, "A Kind and Just Parent: Children of the Juvenile Court," a "searing and timely account of the juvenile court system, and the courageous individuals who rescue hope from despair."

The book, which details life at the Chicago Juvenile Court prison school, mentions Obama by name on page 82 when it describes Chicago's Hyde Park neighborhood:

"Our neighbors include Muhammad Ali, former mayor Eugene Sawyer, poets Gwendolyn Brooks and Elizabeth Alexander, and writer Barack Obama. Minister Louis Farrakhan lives a block from our home and adds, we think, a unique dimension to the idea of 'safe neighborhood watch': the Fruit of Islam, his security force, has an eye on things twenty-four-hours a day."

...A month before the item appeared, on Nov. 20, 1997, Michelle Obama, then dean of student services and director of the University Community Service Center, held a panel at the University of Chicago that featured both Barack Obama and Ayers.

"Ayers will be joined by Sen. Barack Obama, Senior Lecturer in the Law School, who is working to combat legislation that would put more juvenile offenders into the adult system," the University of Chicago Chronicle reported on Nov. 6, 1997.

Obama has been criticized for refusing to elaborate on the extent of his relationship with Ayers and for claiming to have had no idea Ayers was a co-founder of the Wesather Underground, which claimed responsibility for bombing the Pentagon, U.S. Capitol and a New York Supreme Court justice's home in the Sixties."

[johnnymossville]

None of that matters when you have this on your side.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e194/xnodesign/ewwwwwbama.jpg

Ahhhh, like George Michael said, Ya Gotta Have Faith....

[93legendti]

From yahoo.com:

“Mark my words,” the Democratic vice presidential nominee warned at the second of his two Seattle fundraisers Sunday. “It will not be six months before the world tests Barack Obama like they did John Kennedy. The world is looking. We’re about to elect a brilliant 47-year-old senator president of the United States of America. Remember I said it standing here if you don’t remember anything else I said. Watch, we’re gonna have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy.”

“I can give you at least four or five scenarios from where it might originate,” Biden said to Emerald City supporters, mentioning the Middle East and Russia as possibilities. “And he’s gonna need help. And the kind of help he’s gonna need is, he’s gonna need you - not financially to help him - we’re gonna need you to use your influence, your influence within the community, to stand with him. Because it’s not gonna be apparent initially, it’s not gonna be apparent that we’re right.”...”

This just in. The spin from Obama's camp is that when Sen. Biden said:

"It will not be six months before the world tests Barack Obama like they did John Kennedy"

and

"We’re about to elect a brilliant 47-year-old senator president of the United States of America"

Sen. Biden was referring to whichever candidate was elected President!!! So the gaffe machine forgot Sen. McCain's name and age.....rightttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt. :D

[BBB]

On the other hand, McCain claims the fact that he was sitting in a fighter plane on an air craft carrier off the coast of Cuba in 1963 somehow qualifies him to lead a country during a time of international crisis. Really, how does that actually work? He was a fighter pilot at the time and would have been required to follow his superior's orders, who in turn would have received their orders from Washington. Sitting in the pilot's seat is completely removed from the complex decision making that took place in Washington at the time; the negotiation, the careful diplomatic manouevering, the nuances of international affairs, the ability to give and receive advice, the assessment of competing positions and so on. McCain and Obama both have zero experience of being in the hot seat when an international crisis hits. Who does McCain think his is kidding? From the outside looking in, you really don't know whether to laugh or cry.