Serviceable Rear Hubs: Phil, White Ind., King

[Louis]

Assuming I'm looking for Shimano compatible but don't need any of the funky colors King has (plain silver for me), how do I go about choosing, given these choices? Only price?

Any other relatively easily serviceable hubs I should consider?

TIA
Louis

[SoCalSteve]

I've used/owned all of them...

Kings are noisy (some people like the sound), Phil's are heavy...White Industry hubs seem to be neither heavy or noisy..I also like the DT hubs and you cant beat the Dura Ace hub...give that one a look as well...

Good luck, they are all fine choices,

Steve

[bfd]

What's wrong with Shimano hubs? Loose ball bearings are cheap (like five cents each - you'll need at least 10) and easy to repack, quiet (never heard a noisy Shimano freehub) and relatively inexpensive - at least compared to the ones you're looking at.

One big benefit of PW, White, and King hubs, at least in my book, are that those hubs are Made in America! Still, for the money, hard to beat Shimano hubs. Good Luck!

[Peter P.]

Phil Wood. I own a rear, 9 speed cassette mode. The lightweight version uses an aluminum axle. I think it saves 80 grams. It takes a year or two, but either the cassette quiets down or you just don't notice the noise anymore.

Service requires ONLY two 5mm allen wrenches. Chris King requires a $100 tool kit. I've ridden mine in snow and rain plenty of times. Never needed to service it.

Phil Wood has stellar service. When I ordered my hub, I ordered the wrong width. I e-mailed them. They sent me the correct end cap NO CHARGE. The best I could do was return the incorrect end cap. I owe them big time.

[SadieKate]

Hope - see the recent thread about them.

[Louis]

What's wrong with Shimano hubs? Loose ball bearings are cheap (like five cents each - you'll need at least 10) and easy to repack, quiet (never heard a noisy Shimano freehub) and relatively inexpensive - at least compared to the ones you're looking at.

I'm not 100% sure about this, since I have never disassembled one of the fancier hubs, but I believe that in those you can replace the entire bearing assembly, that is, all of the wear surfaces. On the Shimano hubs that I have used and rebuilt (Ultegra and others down the line, never done DA) you can only replace the balls but not the races. You could to the cones, but if the cones are bad then I figure there's a good chance that the races are also bad. Anything funky on the races and the hub is done for.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that's the story.

Louis

[Brian Smith]

I'm not 100% sure about this, since I have never disassembled one of the fancier hubs, but I believe that in those you can replace the entire bearing assembly, that is, all of the wear surfaces. On the Shimano hubs that I have used and rebuilt (Ultegra and others down the line, never done DA) you can only replace the balls but not the races. You could to the cones, but if the cones are bad then I figure there's a good chance that the races are also bad. Anything funky on the races and the hub is done for.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that's the story.

Louis

Hi Louis-
You're right in that with today's loose ball bearing hubs, once the outer race inside the hub becomes damaged, that hub is used up. The design is such, however, that the forces on the replaceable inside races (the cones) cause those to wear much more easily than the irreplaceable outer races. With yearly overhauls, one will "catch" the wear while it's still only harming the cones, replace them, and thereby not ever damage the fixed races.

Of course in the old days some hubs had replaceable fixed races too, but that was then, this is now. Either bearing assembly style is equally viable.

[Ahneida Ride]

One vote here for Whites ....

[Vertigo]

My vote for Kings. They don't NEED a $100 tool, only if you have to pull the bearings or drive mechanism. You may need another 5mm allen if you only have one. I've had (and still have) Phil, White, and other cartridge bearing hub and won't likely buy hubs from one of those brands again. Once the bearings develop play, you pound them out and press them back in. I had to replace bearings on my Whites about every three months, not as often for Phils.

King bearings are easily adjustable and very well sealed. Odds are that you'll NEVER have to replace them, but if you do, they have outstanding customer service. I can't recommend them enough.

[Louis]

I had to replace bearings on my Whites about every three months, not as often for Phils.

Every three months? Unless you're doing monster miles every day under horrible conditions there's no way that should be happening.

[guyintense]

My vote for Kings. They don't NEED a $100 tool, only if you have to pull the bearings or drive mechanism. You may need another 5mm allen if you only have one. I've had (and still have) Phil, White, and other cartridge bearing hub and won't likely buy hubs from one of those brands again. Once the bearings develop play, you pound them out and press them back in. I had to replace bearings on my Whites about every three months, not as often for Phils.

King bearings are easily adjustable and very well sealed. Odds are that you'll NEVER have to replace them, but if you do, they have outstanding customer service. I can't recommend them enough.


Vertigo gets it.

[WickedWheels]

Your question is too open-ended. You need to take the rider and riding style into consideration, not to mention budget.

If your only consideration is riding without worrying about maintenance then cartridge-bearing hubs are the way to go.

If you're also concerned about weight, but don't want to deal with maintenance then look at King or DT Swiss hubs. I mention these not only because of their reliability and weight, but also because of their unique ratchet mechanisms. They don't rely on pawls, which is great for long-term durability.

If you're concerned with going fast above all else then consider loose ball bearing hubs, such as Shimano or Campy. The ability to adjust bearing tension (and have bearings designed for side loads) is fantastic. Plus, you can use different grease according to your needs. If you're racing, for example, use Slick Honey instead of something thick like Phil's Grease. Also, the new Shimano hubs have a much quicker engagement mechanisms, similar to Chris King hubs.

[markie]

I had to replace bearings on my Whites about every three months, not as often for Phils.



Hummm.

Well I've got 10,000 miles on a second hand Phil rear hub and its bearings are still great. The front hub did need a new set of bearings in that time. I think my LBS charged $20.

I like Phil.

[Sheldon4209]

The Phil hubs on my tandem are 10 years old and with a little polish they shine like new. I like the appearance of the Phil hubs.

[WickedWheels]

With all these people recommending Phil, I have to say something...

Phil stuff is very durable, beautiful and high quality. That's something that could hardly be argued. However, the hubs are hardly "performance-oriented". They are very heavy, have significant drag in the bearings AND in the ratchet. Are they good for a bike you're going to load up with panniers and ride cross-country? Sure! But they certainly aren't made with speed in mind.

Personally, I think they fall right into the same category as Brooks saddles, Cinelli quill stems and Schmidt lights.

[cadence90]

Besides Shimano, which are very good hubs:


White Industries:
I vote for the Whites: whoever wrote about the 3-month replacement must in the .01 percentile of W. I. customers.
Every good wheel-builder and customer lauds them.
I have a 10-year old Dave Thomas set w/Whites and have never had an issue.
Excellent. Light, strong, aesthetically pleasing, great customer service.


DT:
Also excellent. Several models. Good price/quality/weight ratio (except the 190s are insanely expensive.)
Excellent. Light, strong, aesthetically pleasing, great customer service.
As available as any U. S. hub.


Phil:
Maybe the best (except for Campa), but as a nationally known wheel-builder and forum member said "...they take things to the extreme." That's fine by me, but the price/quality/weight ratio with Whites is better imo.
Heavy (2x the weight of W. I. or King). Expensive.
Aesthetically pleasing. Great customer service, too.
I second wicked's assessment, though.


King:
Never tried them myself for an extended period, but I have friends who have them. Exc. quality also, but this t-shirt speaks the truth:

ANGRY BEE T-SHIRT

http://chrisking.com/files/images/tshirts/AngryBeeRedB.jpg

"Every now and then we receive product feedback that we feel we must immortalize in print.
Sure, we know that our rear hub makes a distinctive sound. But thanks to Akiyoshi Takamura, a Japanese rider and King customer, we'll never be able to get "It rolls good with angry bee sound" out of our head."

Great hubs, but personally, I don't like the look or the noise.


Hope:
I've never tried them or see them in use, but they have a great reputation in the U. K.
But they they do not really specialize in drive-train components as much as they do on mtb brakes, afaik.
Know nothing about customer service.

I say Shimano, W. I. or DT.

[SadieKate]

I had to replace bearings on my Whites about every three months, not as often for Phils. What? We have three pairs of WIs in this house. One pair is on my Titus Racer X and being beat to #$%^. They're rolling along just fine.

As far as the CK's? Hubby just had a pair serviced. I guess the only thing you can say about them is that they outlasted the rims so he had them rebuilt in new wheels, but wow that was a chunk of change. Unfortunately, they still sound like angry bees. At least I always know where he is. :cool:

[Louis]

Thanks for the info guys. Good stuff.

One additional comment on why I'm considering these significantly more expensive hubs:

For whatever reason, ages ago my rims would get trashed well before the hubs went bad. I therefore had no incentive to try to improve on the life of the hubs. I'd just use cheap hubs and toss the whole thing. However, recently I've noticed that my rims and spokes are lasting longer and that the hubs (Shimano mostly) are starting to wear out first. That leads me to conclude that maybe I should switch over to hubs that allow a more complete rebuild. Then, a given wheel lasts longer, and even when the rim finally goes you still have a perfectly good hub.

FWIW I'm leaning toward the White Ind. H2 (or H1).

Louis

[bigbill]

I commute on PW hubs. I race or ride fast on wheelsets with chorus or record hubs. I also have a PW bb in the commuter. The only customer service experience I have with PW is for my bottom bracket and it was great. I have been riding the PW hubs for around 14 months so I am several years away from needing customer service.

[Cat Craig]

I bought the new King cross hubs and have to say that they are much quieter than my 2007 campy Record hubs and my ksyriums - neither of which are that terribly loud.

My King hubs purr but I don't get angry bees - dang it. I also adjusted the bearings myself with two allen wrenches and a $25 tool. I'm no great mechanic and it was really easy.

I admire all the products mentioned - but I'm also spending my dollars at King because I admire their business philosophy, service, and advocacy. That's a luxury to be sure, but it's something that happens to matter to me - in addition to the user serviceable aspect of CK products, backed by outstanding customer service in Portland.

OP - you won't go wrong But don't avoid King hubs because of the noise. The newer King hubs do not have the same angry bee apocalypse sound. This issue is discussed in past threads. Do a search if you want to read more.

[cadence90]

FWIW I'm leaning toward the White Ind. H2 (or H1).

Louis
Excellent choice. With a good wheelbuilder (Troy, Eric, Dave Thomas, Jeremy Parfitt, Peter White, Joe Young, Mike Garcia, Steve Rex, probably a couple of others I've not remembered to mention) you'll have the most cost effective, lighest for your weight, durable custom wheelset you can have.

Bigbill is right: Phils are excellent rough everyday commuting or loaded touring, but I think overkill for clean road riding. Their BB is the best. I am curious, now that it's finally out, how the CK BB will stack up.

Cat: do the CK cross hubs use the same RingDrive use the same 72tooth engagement as the road hubs?
What caused the lessening of the angry bee whirr? I ask because on the current CK site they still sell the t-shirt and they say, " From time to time the RingDrive may become louder due to loss or contamination of the grease...."

[Cat Craig]

I'm not 100% sure why my hubs are so quiet relative to other reviewers, but I have read that others have had the same experience here on this forum. Perhaps it is the formula they are using in the CK specific Ring Drive grease? Check out posts by Ergott and 11.4 - they both have more experience and expertise on this subject than I do.

The internals are the same I believe. The cross hub just have different flange dimensions and spacing.

[saab2000]

Unfortunately, King hubs are not Campagnolo compatable. Otherwise it'd be a no-brainer, especially if they are quieted down.

[Ligero]

Chris King- $$$$ Some seem to last forever and some need constant maintenance. I have personally put 35k miles on a CK rear without any maintenance at all. I have sold CK hubs that seem to need some type of maintenance every 3 months.

Phil Wood- $$$ I have seen some PW hubs that have 50k miles without needing new bearings! PW use a hugely over sized bearing for bicycle hub and they also don't believe in thin walled anything. So there hubs are heavy but very rarely will you ever break anything on PW and if you do they will most likely replace it no question asked.

DT- $$$ Lightweight, long lasting and fairly quite. The rear hub does not have the best wheel building dimensions but not nearly as bad as AC. Both the front and rear use standard sized (6902) cartridge bearings and are easy to change if needed except the drive side bearing. If you need to change the DS bearing you will need the DT service kit.

White Industries- $$ Simple, reliable and look pretty good as well. The new H2 hubs use the same size and quality bearings as the DT hubs. The rear has better build dimensions then the DT but not as good as the CK hub. The titanium freehub body is big plus for Shimano users because you don't have to worry about damaging the splines like on a alloy one, CK, Hope and DT all use a alloy body.

Hope- $$ Very well sealed, kind of loud, available in lots of colors and fairly reliable. Hope is not well known for there road hubs but there mtb hubs are well known for being 95% of Kings but 50% of the price.

[dekindy]

IMHO Shimano Ultegra are the most cost-effictive because they are high quality, quiet, easily serviceable, and better sealed from the elements than Dura-Ace.

I have White Industries on my new wheelset but wish that I had stuck with Shimano Ultegra.

If you don't like the noise of the CK, just keep pedaling. You should not coast without pedaling anyway.

[Lincoln]

Any real-world reports on Tune?

[Ligero]

Any real-world reports on Tune?

They used to be the lightest usable hub on the market but recently they have developed a creaking problem. They changed something in the drive ring and some of the hubs creak and it can't be stopped without changing the drive ring which Tune may or may not give to you at no charge. Any hub made before about march or February doesn't seem to have the problem.

It is bad enough of a problem that Jeremy at Alchemy has stopped importing them.

[Vertigo]

I neglected to remind myself that this forum is mostly for road riding. Most of the hubs I listed were used on my MTBs and were getting 200+ miles/week often in very nasty conditions. That was MY experience with the average cartridge bearing hub, it's obviously going to be different for different people. It doesn't change the fact that I've owned and still own dozens of King hubs since they came out and I've had ONE problem with one. It was out of their warrantee period and yet they rectified the problem in under a week, including wheel shipping time and they picked up the tab. IMO, customer service doesn't get better than that (and the wheel went from MD to CA to MD in seven days.)

Conversely, I've had a Phil front hub on my RB-1 since 1993. It's my errand bike now and I replaced the bearings about a year and a half ago...they're wobbly again. They're beautiful and incredibly well made, there's no question about that; but when I want/need a new set of hubs, it's King every single time.