11 speed chain and cog info...

[Dave]

I learned a few new things about the Campy 11 speed 5.5mm chain and cogs recently. The new chain avoids life-reducing width reductions to the pin/bushng interface and rollers. All of the width reduction is apparently done by reducing the outer plate thickness and using stronger material for the outer plates to avoid any loss in strength. The inner plates and rollers are the same as the current 5.9mm UN 10 speed chain. If the inner sideplate width remains at 3.7mm, then a number of 10 speed quick links may work adequately to join the 11 speed chain. Those would be the Forster Superlink model 4, the SRAM 10 powerloc and the Campy UN version of the KMC link. The connex 10S1 would most likely be a little too wide.

Reading the chain installation instuctions at the Campy website, the use of the new UT-CN300 chain tool is important, if the chain is joined with the special pin supplied with the chain. The new tool is made to peen one end of the pin to increase it's resistance to pullout. The other end of the pin has a small head on it to prevent pullout.


http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/7225362-11s_chains.pdf


The cog thickness also remains the same. The spacers have been reduced from 2.4mm, to 2.2mm, yielding what should be the same 3.95mm c-c cog spacing used by Shimano and SRAM. By my calculations, the overall width of the cogs must be about 2mm wider than a 10 speed cassette. 10 speed cogs are already about 3mm wider than the 36mm spline length of the cassette body and the 11 speed will be about 5mm wider. The extra width comes from offsetting the teeth on the first cog and extending the last group of cogs, left of the splines.

Adding two 2.2mm spacers and one cog (1.75mm) , I get 6.15mm of space for the chain. Obviously a 5.9mm will be a very tight fit and shows why the narrower 5.5mm would be the best choice. Using a 5.9mm chain will work to some extent (it's been tried already), but just like using a Shimano 9 chain on a Campy 10 cassette, the RD adjustment becomes quite critical with so little side clearance.

[Johny]

So Campy 10 speed cranks (rings) work for 11 speed chain? I don't wanna buy these more expensive 11 sp cranksets if I decide to go for the 11 speed.

[Tobias]

All of the width reduction is apparently done by reducing the outer plate thickness and using stronger material for the outer plates to avoid any loss in strength.Do you know how much stronger the material has to be to make up for the thinner plates?

I doubt materials have changed that much in a few years.

[Dave]

Two answers. I've read from one poster who has logged 1800 miles on his 11 speed drivetrain using 10 speed Campy cranks, with no problems. Others have reported success with Zipp cranks.

Campy reports that the material they chose for the thinner outer plates is 20% stronger, but the thickness would be 25% less if it all comes from the outer plates. There are no holes in these sideplates to reduce strength, so the net result should be outer plates that are just as strong as before.

Materials may not have changed, but their are many steel alloys to choose from. Some are much stronger than others.

[Johny]

Thanks Dave. Does the 10 sp front derailleur works well for the 11 sp chain?


Two answers. I've read from one poster who has logged 1800 miles on his 11 speed drivetrain using 10 speed Campy cranks, with no problems. Others have reported success with Zipp cranks.

Campy reports that the material they chose for the thinner outer plates is 20% stronger, but the thickness would be 25% less if it all comes from the outer plates. There are no holes in these sideplates to reduce strength, so the net result should be outer plates that are just as strong as before.

Materials may not have changed, but their are many steel alloys to choose from. Some are much stronger than others.

[Dave]

Thanks Dave. Does the 10 sp front derailleur works well for the 11 sp chain?

I haven't read any reports on that yet, but I don't expect any problem. The instructions that came with my Centaur 10 speed ultrashift ergopower claimed that they were not compatible with QS front derailleurs, but it works fine for me. With up to 7 clicks from the finger lever, just about any FD can be operated with the ultrashift ergopower, including a triple. The 10 and 11 speed models have the same indexing system in the left side lever.

[R2D2]

I thought the ten speed chain tool was expensive.
The new one is 250.00 +..........
I may have to ride ten speed for a while.

[Tobias]

Campy reports that the material they chose for the thinner outer plates is 20% stronger, but the thickness would be 25% less if it all comes from the outer plates. There are no holes in these sideplates to reduce strength, so the net result should be outer plates that are just as strong as before.What do you mean by this? :confused:

[Dave]

What do you mean by this? :confused:


The Chorus and Record level chains have two holes punched into each of the outer plates. Some brands punch slots into the plates. The idea is to reduce weight, but if you were to conduct a pull test on these plates, they would be likely fail around these holes or slots, due to the reduced cross sectional area.

A thinner plate with no holes will be as strong or stronger than a thick one with strength reducing holes.

[Dave]

I thought the ten speed chain tool was expensive.
The new one is 250.00 +..........
I may have to ride ten speed for a while.

The tool is "only" $200 at Excel Sports, but that price and the rest of their 2009 prices are ridiculous. I sent them an e-mail to let them know that they would not get any Campy purchases from me, until the prices drop drastically. I can get parts from Europe for little more than 2008. Expect the new tool will still be at least $140, but it's either that, or experiment with 5.9mm connector links.

[R2D2]

The tool is "only" $200 at Excel Sports, but that price and the rest of their 2009 prices are ridiculous. I sent them an e-mail to let them know that they would not get any Campy purchases from me, until the prices drop drastically. I can get part from Europe for little more than 2008. Expect the new tool will still be at least $140, but it's either that, or experiment with 5.9mm connector links.

Try $300 at Excel.
Cheapest is Cbike at 250.
Alhough Danish Bike Busters has it for 150.

[soulspinner]

Once again thanks Dave. As one who worried about reliability your post and Andys video at Competitive Cyclist have allayed fears. Lickbike says Campy chorus 11 is on its way to settling out at 1400. I know you have a source for less. Parker and Totalcycling are still over 1600. If Record is really gonna wind up the same as 2008 (or 3 percent less) eventually, that might be the way to go. CC has weights that are about 2 ounces more than Campys published weights for each 11 speed group, big shock. Im still gonna wait to try both Record and Chorus as well as new DuraAce before I make up my mind but after seeing CCs video about treatments Campy is using to increase longevity, Im once again leaning their way. A lot of thought went into these groups from a standpoint of comfort and longevity(less rebuilding with no springs in the shifters), not just performance.

[Dave]

Try $300 at Excel.
Cheapest is Cbike at 250.
Alhough Danish Bike Busters has it for 150.


You're right about Excel. Now I'm really glad I sent that e-mail to them, blasting their prices.

[R2D2]

You're right about Excel. Now I'm really glad I sent that e-mail to them, blasting their prices.

I'm kinda in awe of the prices...........
It's just a chain tool.
I know it a good/special chain.
But wow.........

[Dave]

I added up a price of no more than $1450 from Total Cycling, but that can vary from day to day depending on the exchange rate. They've got an error in their current price for chains, I believe.

The online dealer I'm hoping to buy from has no 11 speed stock and I have no idea if they are filling preorders. Chorus is around $1200 and Centaur 10 is $850 or less. At least 2009 Centaur is in stock. Freight is high ($45+) so it's not a place for small orders.

www.comobike.it

Texas Cyclesport is expecting some stock in a couple of weeks. They typically have decent prices, as does Licktons. The question is if the US importer will bust them for charging less than MSRP. That's the current excuse for those who are charging 50-75% more for 2009 parts.

[soulspinner]

I must have erred, using pound-=1.76 a day or two ago. Lickbike indicated the court appeal re:MSRP should be resolved in a month or two. Appreciate the time you take to explain this stuff :beer:

[Tobias]

The Chorus and Record level chains have two holes punched into each of the outer plates. Some brands punch slots into the plates. The idea is to reduce weight, but if you were to conduct a pull test on these plates, they would be likely fail around these holes or slots, due to the reduced cross sectional area.

A thinner plate with no holes will be as strong or stronger than a thick one with strength reducing holes.Thanks Dave -- just wanted to make sure before commenting.

My expectations would have been that the weakest point is at the hole for the pins. In a direct chain tension test maybe the stronger material can counter the thinner plate, but if the chain is twisted or bent as is the case in real use -- particularly when shifting under load -- the thinner plates create more stresses than the proportional thickness would suggest.

BTW, that's a lot of improvement in material strength. What were they using before, mild steel? :rolleyes:

[Dave]

Thanks Dave -- just wanted to make sure before commenting.

My expectations would have been that the weakest point is at the hole for the pins. In a direct chain tension test maybe the stronger material can counter the thinner plate, but if the chain is twisted or bent as is the case in real use -- particularly when shifting under load -- the thinner plates create more stresses than the proportional thickness would suggest.

BTW, that's a lot of improvement in material strength. What were they using before, mild steel? :rolleyes:

Can't say I've ever seen a twisted or bent outer sideplate. In normal shifting, that sort of side force would never occur. I can shift a chain off the big ring with a touch of my finger. If large side forces did occur, they's be most likely to pry an outer plate off the end of a pin. That's where most chain failures occur. Fortunately, the outer plate thickness is not a factor in that type of failure. Heavy peening of the pins is the key to stopping that problem.

[Tobias]

If large side forces did occur, they's be most likely to pry an outer plate off the end of a pin. That's where most chain failures occur. Fortunately, the outer plate thickness is not a factor in that type of failure. Heavy peening of the pins is the key to stopping that problem.Exactly. But I'll have to respectfully disagree with you that plate thickness is not a factor.

When a chain is twisted or bent, the mechanical action tries to pry the outer plates off the pins. And the thinner the plate is, the more effective the prying forces.

BTW, I was thinking of bending and twisting more at the cassette when shifting. With your bike on a stand, watch the chain closely as it jumps from one cog to the next.

[Erik.Lazdins]

Dave,
Which non-Campy link do you think works the best? I'm interested in giving a non-tool link a try.

thanks,
Erik

[Dave]

Exactly. But I'll have to respectfully disagree with you that plate thickness is not a factor.

When a chain is twisted or bent, the mechanical action tries to pry the outer plates off the pins. And the thinner the plate is, the more effective the prying forces.

BTW, I was thinking of bending and twisting more at the cassette when shifting. With your bike on a stand, watch the chain closely as it jumps from one cog to the next.

I guess we'll just have to disagree. I see no mechanical reason for a side force to be more "effective" on a thinner plate. It's the peening on the ends of the pins that keeps the chain together. If the peening ever fails in some sort of extreme condition, then the chain has failed. A chain with thicker sideplate might hang together for a little longer, but before long, it will come apart, just the same. The real concern is having the strength to endure under high tension, hence the stronger material.

Only time will tell if the new chain performs well, but my biggest fear is improper installation. A whole lot of people will install these chains without the proper tool and when the joining pin fails, they'll whine about design being poor.

[Dave]

Dave,
Which non-Campy link do you think works the best? I'm interested in giving a non-tool link a try.

thanks,
Erik

Best for an 11 speed chain or best in general? A connecting link must fit properly first. The side clearance between inner and outer plates must be in the normal .004-.008 inch range. Pick the wrong link and you could have zero to .015 inch clearance.

I like the way the Wipperman connex link works as well as any, but they are really made only to fit Wipperman chains. If you select the right model, they can be used on other chains. Oddly enough, the Campy compatible model marked 10 SPEED, fits a Shimano chain and the 10S1 model, often called "Shimano compatible" fits a Campy UN chain, but not a genuine Shimano chain. Shimano and KMC 10 chains are wider across the inner sideplates than the Campy UN and SRAM 10 chains.

Wipperman changed to a single 10 speed chain width this year and I've not measured one to see if they use the wider (Shimano/KMC) or narrower (Campy/SRAM) sideplate width.

I've had good luck with the KMC links on KMC chains, that will also fit Shimano chains. A Campy UN model is made by KMC, but it can be hard to find.

[Tobias]

I guess we'll just have to disagree.OK.

One thing I do expect is that most do-it-yourselfers and a lot of LBS mechanics for that matter won't read 25 pages of information on how to install and take care of the chain. If failures do occur due to poor installation it won't be Campy's fault at all, but at some point making a bicycle too complicated seems to defeat the purpose for me.