How do you buy a custom frame? [Archive]

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dw67

09-21-2008, 03:09 PM

14max

09-21-2008, 03:11 PM

djg21

09-21-2008, 03:15 PM

rePhil

09-21-2008, 03:22 PM

I would suggest Lennard Zinn. He specializes in bikes for big guys.

http://www.zinncycles.com/

davidlee

09-21-2008, 03:26 PM

Easy.
Call Nick Crumpton and tell him what you are looking for. Im 6'3 with a long torso and finally decided to get a custom build. 7 weeks and counting for the frame. Top notch guy, beautiful bikes and made in Texas .What more could you want.
david

dauwhe

09-21-2008, 03:29 PM

Dave Kirk or Curt Goodrich. Really. Both are exemplary in the field and neither will hard sell you on anything. You can thank me later...

Note the OP is asking about a time trial bike. I don't think these guys specialize in that...

Dave

mikki

09-21-2008, 03:39 PM

Bill Holland...Holland bikes. (Spring Valley, Ca) He has made bikes for famous basketball stars and you know how big they are!!

paczki

09-21-2008, 03:43 PM

Lots of nice stuff. I'm sure Serotta could do you right. Or this:

http://www.yamaguchibike.com/content/Frames/Time_Trial/Team_USA_Time_Trial

14max

09-21-2008, 03:55 PM

Note the OP is asking about a time trial bike. I don't think these guys specialize in that...

Dave

I did note that. I don't think those guys would balk at it either...

Ti Designs

09-21-2008, 04:20 PM

Besides open up your wallet?!?! I have decided its time. Road bikes are pretty easy to fit right, but I'm ready to go custom with my TT/Tri bike. Nothing out there seems to fit my 6'5" body. I have a few builders that I'm considering, but I'm not sure I know what questions to ask to make sure that I don't get "sold."

If you want to throw in a builder based on your experience that would be fine too.

If the question is how you BUY a custom frame, the answer is find a frame builder and pay them lots of money, and sometimes wait a few years. How hard is that?

If the question is how do you FIT a custom frame, more specificly a TT frame for a 6'5" person, the frame builder hundreds of miles away would not be my first choise. Road bike fit isn't as easy as most people make it out to be, TT bike fit is much harder. If you use the Size Cycle you can dial in the position on your average rider, but I'll bet given two weeks of position specific training that fit is going to change.

Here's my suggestion: Find a fitter you trust, let them know you're looking for a custom TT bike, but you need the position dialed before you plunk down the cash. So, to that end you take a road bike and put it in TT position on the trainer. It's on the trainer, we're talking points of contact only, a 17cm stem (adjustable stoker stem on an adaptor) is OK here. The goal is to figure out how to produce power and torque in that position. An aero fit means nothing if you can't do that.

We sent fitters out to both Specialized fit school and the Slowtwitch school, they fit me on the size cycle. That was a good starting point, but a month later when I was producing respectable power numbers on the trainer the fit wasn't really that close.

cadence90

09-21-2008, 04:20 PM

Ves Mandaric (http://www.mandaric.com/) (original founder of Quintana Roo);
Dave Tiemeyer (http://www.tiemeyercycles.com/tt.html);
Koichi Yamaguchi (http://www.yamaguchibike.com/content/Index) (mentioned above);
Guru (http://www.gurubikes.com/enUS/main.php);
Cyfac (http://www.veloeuropa.com/home.shtml);
Griffen (http://www.griffenbike.com/bikes/bikes.php);
Javelin (http://www.javbike.com/Multisport.html) (the Lugano model is custom; other models can be expert-fitted);
are all excellent, experienced custom famebuilders who have a long history in building TT/Tri frames.

All are worth a call or email at least.
Good luck!

dekindy

09-21-2008, 05:16 PM

Why not the new Serotta fit studio?

Pete Serotta

09-21-2008, 05:22 PM

Get a respected builder that you can travel to and bring your current bike. Tell him/her what you like and also what you do not like -and what type riding you plan on doing.

There are plenty of good builders and good fitters out there.

If we know where you live and how far you can travel, there are many here who can offer recommendations...

Naturally I am SEROTTA biased and there are some great fitters in DC(SMILEY), VT(Ian), NY(PAUL LEVINE), NY(MIKE GROTZ), etc... As to other builders -CURT GOODRICH (Minn), TOM KELLOGG(PA) DAVID KIRK(Montana).

There are others in this league (in my view but the wait is years -ie Richard Sachs, Peter Wiegle. These are the folks I have first hand experience with. In fact many fly into NY to see Paul Levine or Mike Grotz. Additionally IAN at Fitwerx has LOTS of flyins.....

If I can be on any assistance in helping locate a fitter please send me an email PETE@SEROTTA.COM

Besides open up your wallet?!?! I have decided its time. Road bikes are pretty easy to fit right, but I'm ready to go custom with my TT/Tri bike. Nothing out there seems to fit my 6'5" body. I have a few builders that I'm considering, but I'm not sure I know what questions to ask to make sure that I don't get "sold."

If you want to throw in a builder based on your experience that would be fine too.

Elefantino

09-21-2008, 05:34 PM

What Ti said.

stuckey

09-21-2008, 05:38 PM

Get a respected builder that you can travel to and bring your current bike. Tell him/her what you like and also what you do not like -and what type riding you plan on doing.

There are plenty of good builders and good fitters out there.

If we know where you live and how far you can travel, there are many here who can offer recommendations...

Naturally I am SEROTTA biased and there are some great fitters in DC(SMILEY), VT(Ian), NY(PAUL LEVINE), NY(MIKE GROTZ), etc... As to other builders -CURT GOODRICH (Minn), TOM KELLOGG(PA) DAVID KIRK(Montana).

There are others in this league (in my view but the wait is years -ie Richard Sachs, Peter Wiegle. These are the folks I have first hand experience with. In fact many fly into NY to see Paul Levine or Mike Grotz. Additionally IAN at Fitwerx has LOTS of flyins.....

If I can be on any assistance in helping locate a fitter please send me an email PETE@SEROTTA.COM

Why does Dave at Ellis Cycles always miss the love? He has been building a good while, is super nice guy with a short wait list. I know he is more action then hype but, hype is hype I guess. :confused:

Viper

09-21-2008, 05:49 PM

6'5" TT frame?
Serotta
DeSalvo - Top notch work, gentleman
Or buy a basketball

Peter P.

09-21-2008, 06:34 PM

I agree with picshooter; contact Lennard Zinn. He's got a great reputation. He's been in the business for many years, and he's 6'6"!

He specializes in frames for tall riders.

Pete Serotta

09-21-2008, 07:19 PM

I only mentioned the individuals that I have first hand experience with. There are numerous builders that I did not mention - for I do not personally have experience with them. Sorry, I did not mean to slight anyone. PETE

Why does Dave at Ellis Cycles always miss the love? He has been building a good while, is super nice guy with a short wait list. I know he is more action then hype but, hype is hype I guess. :confused:

rphetteplace

09-21-2008, 07:32 PM

6'5" TT frame?
Serotta
DeSalvo - Top notch work, gentleman
Or buy a basketball

I'm 6'6"

I've got 4 bikes from DeSalvo. Very easy to deal with. He also has built bikes for several Seattle Sonics.

dekindy

09-21-2008, 07:39 PM

If you use the Size Cycle you can dial in the position on your average rider, but I'll bet given two weeks of position specific training that fit is going to change.

Could you please be more specific. I am not trying to be a jerk, just trying to learn. From an uneducated person's viewpoint, I would think that they only thing that would change would possibly be flexibility in which case the head tube could be designed short for future increased flexibility and head tube extensions would take care of current needs. Different stem lengths would probably also be needed.

Apparently there is a lot more to it than that? What rider changes are there and what are the resulting changes in the individual frame dimensions? Could you give an example to help me understand?

Thanks from a recreational cyclist that might consider a custom some day.

cadence90

09-21-2008, 07:45 PM

I'm 6'6"

I've got 4 bikes from DeSalvo. Very easy to deal with. He also has built bikes for several Seattle Sonics.
And the Speedvagens, at least the first ones.

Lots of excellent builders mentioned here; I still think going with one who has done a good amount of TT/Tri frames is an important consideration.

rphetteplace

09-21-2008, 07:48 PM

And the Speedvagens, at least the first ones.

Lots of excellent builders mentioned here; I still think going with one who has done a good amount of TT/Tri frames is an important consideration.

nope all the speedvagens

Ti Designs

09-21-2008, 08:49 PM

Could you please be more specific. I am not trying to be a jerk, just trying to learn. From an uneducated person's viewpoint, I would think that they only thing that would change would possibly be flexibility in which case the head tube could be designed short for future increased flexibility and head tube extensions would take care of current needs. Different stem lengths would probably also be needed.

Apparently there is a lot more to it than that? What rider changes are there and what are the resulting changes in the individual frame dimensions? Could you give an example to help me understand?

Thanks from a recreational cyclist that might consider a custom some day.

My own experience in setting up a TT position has been echoed by just about every one of the riders I work with beyond the initial fitting. As I said, the initial fit was done on the size cycle by people certified by Serotta, Specialized BG and Slowtwitch (I know the school is called FIST, but a google search on FIST is just plain disturbing). This fit would have been perfect if I was a bag of bones and tendons, but somewhere in there muscles have to contract at the right times to create power. For the first week in the TT position no amount of aerodynamic savings would have made up for the loss of power in the pedal stroke, something had to change. Fitters can't see the differences in strengths of muscle groups, or even the differences in strengths at different ranges of motion. In my case an L4/L5 injury left me with a lack of strength in the vastus lateralis (the outside of the quad which handles the initial extension at the knee), which meant the whole top of the pedal stroke wasn't being powered. The position left very little for my glutes, so something had to change. My solution was to move the saddle back and the handlebar position back and up. I have decent lower back flexability, (greater hip angle works as decompression on the damaged disk - if I don't ride I can't walk) but this change meant I don't fit on the Cervelo P3, which was what I had in mind.

In setting up a TT bike, the fitting is a good starting point, nothing more. From there it's up to the rider to collect data and tweek the position. I did over 10 hours of testing the first week alone - look at what the top fitters charge and tell me you need them there the whole time while you're on your trainer recording power numbers, you'll wind up with an $8000 fitting. At that point the fitter is a consultant, and if they do their job right the first time and explain why the position is starting where it is and what the limitations are, that should work. Fitters have an hour or two to work with clients, the body takes far longer than that to adapt to position changes. If you want to get the most from any bike position you either need to learn how to track data or get a coach (who will have you track data).

dekindy

09-21-2008, 09:08 PM

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

TiDesigns - Don't some fitters do flexibility and muscle strength testing and take those things into consideration? Can only sophisticated sports labs like the pros have get that detailed and us recreational guys have to do it the way that you propose?

Are you saying even if they take everything into consideration that it changes and as a rider you need to experiment with different positions as your body changes.

What equipment does a recreational need to do this? Is a Kurt Kinetic Power Computer adequate or do you need a Powertap or Computrainer? Which device is the best? Are left/right leg power outputs needed or just total?

It seems like every time I make an adjustment it is the opposite of what I need to do or if an adjustment is made for me I interpret as being the opposite of what was actually done. At least I am consistent. Is there any hope for someone like myself that does not seem to have any ability in this area? Sorry, that last one sounds like a Dear Abby question.

Ti Designs

09-21-2008, 09:41 PM

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

How is this hijacking the thread? The question was about buying a custom, one would think they wanted it to fit a good position, not an initial guess.

TiDesigns - Don't some fitters do flexibility and muscle strength testing and take those things into consideration? Can only sophisticated sports labs like the pros have get that detailed and us recreational guys have to do it the way that you propose?

Which fitters would that be? Yes if you're talking about the 4 day program at the OTC, no if you're talking about any of the fit studios that I know of.

Are you saying even if they take everything into consideration that it changes and as a rider you need to experiment with different positions as your body changes.

I've been in this a short time (9 years coaching, 12 years fitting), but I still don't see how anybody could take all of this into consideration. I know my own body pretty well and I couldn't do it for myself... There are two options the way I see it, you can take the time to tweek the position or you can suck on a TT bike. I just don't get why so many people opt for option B.

What equipment does a recreational need to do this? Is a Kurt Kinetic Power Computer adequate or do you need a Powertap or Computrainer? Which device is the best? Are left/right leg power outputs needed or just total?

The Elite trainer with power output is something new for me. If you have a linear resistance, you know your gearing and you know your cadence, you have the same thing without the numbers. Add a mirror and some one leg pedal stroke drils with emphasis on certain parts of the pedal stroke and you have everything you need. Well, maybe a coach who understands pedal stroke work would be a help... SpinScan and force vector pedals are great scientific tools for gathering data, but so many people get bogged down in the numbers and graphs that they lose track of the end goal.

Here's another thing to think about: With a well designed weight training program the different muscle groups are going to see different changes. I'll probably have 4 increases on the leg sled (glutes) while only 2 increases on leg extension (quads). My saddle position shifts back as this happens. The body changes, the fit changes. Fitters can't do a damn thing about that...

Pete Serotta

09-22-2008, 08:15 AM

:) THanks for the valuable input of your years of experience both personal and with clients. PETE

How is this hijacking the thread? The question was about buying a custom, one would think they wanted it to fit a good position, not an initial guess.

Which fitters would that be? Yes if you're talking about the 4 day program at the OTC, no if you're talking about any of the fit studios that I know of.

I've been in this a short time (9 years coaching, 12 years fitting), but I still don't see how anybody could take all of this into consideration. I know my own body pretty well and I couldn't do it for myself... There are two options the way I see it, you can take the time to tweek the position or you can suck on a TT bike. I just don't get why so many people opt for option B.

The Elite trainer with power output is something new for me. If you have a linear resistance, you know your gearing and you know your cadence, you have the same thing without the numbers. Add a mirror and some one leg pedal stroke drils with emphasis on certain parts of the pedal stroke and you have everything you need. Well, maybe a coach who understands pedal stroke work would be a help... SpinScan and force vector pedals are great scientific tools for gathering data, but so many people get bogged down in the numbers and graphs that they lose track of the end goal.

Here's another thing to think about: With a well designed weight training program the different muscle groups are going to see different changes. I'll probably have 4 increases on the leg sled (glutes) while only 2 increases on leg extension (quads). My saddle position shifts back as this happens. The body changes, the fit changes. Fitters can't do a damn thing about that...

Bob Ross

09-22-2008, 10:37 AM

If the question is how do you FIT a custom frame, more specificly a TT frame for a 6'5" person, the frame builder hundreds of miles away would not be my first choise. ...(snip)...Find a fitter you trust, let them know you're looking for a custom TT bike, but you need the position dialed before you plunk down the cash.

+1

Certainly for the first time purchase of a custom frame I think finding a builder local enough that he can fit you is prudent. I also think the idea of having a professional fit done (elsewhere) before you visit the builder is a wise idea, as it allows you to go to the builder with some solid data to compare to whatever results he gets from his own fitting. If you can get that fit data, implement it on your current bike, and try it out for a few months before visiting the custom builder, even better.

At least that's how I'm going about it.

I suspect if I were on my 3rd or 4th custom frame, and/or I'd been riding for a good number of years with my fit dialed in to exactly the way I liked it with no second-guessing or self-doubts, it would be a little easier. But first time around I'm not taking any chances.