OT Across the HALL part 2

[Pete Serotta]

:no: :no: While everyone was so busy as to part one....

Let me say that if something was wrong over there it is probably wrong to do here. And it will get you banned...

Additionally bringing your "banning" Complaint here will get you banned here.

I am going to delete the thread and also going to look at some of the posters comments and see if they (the ID) is to stay active here.

This type of personal attacks seem to be from a core group of folks and I was hoping they would get over their rudeness - but it looks like I am wrong.

WE are not going to lose folks to the "few",,,,,

Yes I am a little hot and need to sit back and act logically BUT the folks on the other FORUM are friends of this forum AND friends on mine!!!


PETE :no:

[jdoiv]

Good for you Pete. I really don't see why someone needs to go to another forum to complain that they were booted off another forum. It's not like the moderators or users of this forum can do anything about it. And if you don't like the discourse of a forum or how it is moderated, don't go to it. Jeez, some people need to grow up and get their panties out of a wad.

[fiamme red]

http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheBizarroJerry.htm

KEVIN

Hey.. What're you doing?

ELAINE

Eatin' olives.

KEVIN

Have you ever heard of asking? [door bell rings]

Who is it?

FELDMAN

[off-screen] Feldman..

From across the hall.

KEVIN

[drops his suspicion and smiles, goes to door] Hold on. [unlocks and opens door]

Hey.

FELDMAN

He-ey, Kevin!

KEVIN

Hi.

FELDMAN

Look who I ran into.

[VARGUS, a heavy Fed-Ex guy comes into view in the hall.]

VARGUS

[testy] Hello, Kevin..

KEVIN

[testy] Hello, Vargus..

[They both break into grins, chuckling--it was a joke.]

[Sandy]

Please think carefully Pete before you ban anyone here to this point. You have given notice in this thread and perhaps that is ample. It is your call. Have some thoughts but need to take my dog out before it rains. He is a pit bull and won't go out in the rain......tough pit bull! :rolleyes:


Sandy

[keno]

huh?

keno

[znfdl]

:no: :no: While everyone was so busy as to part one....

Let me say that if something was wrong over there it is probably wrong to do here. And it will get you banned...

Additionally bringing your "banning" Complaint here will get you banned here.

I am going to delete the thread and also going to look at some of the posters comments and see if they (the ID) is to stay active here.

This type of personal attacks seem to be from a core group of folks and I was hoping they would get over their rudeness - but it looks like I am wrong.

WE are not going to lose folks to the "few",,,,,

Yes I am a little hot and need to sit back and act logically BUT the folks on the other FORUM are friends of this forum AND friends on mine!!!


PETE :no:


Nicely put.

Well they took me home in the back of a checker cab
After somebody took a chair cross the back of my head
My mama said bring him on in
And when they told her where I'd been she said
Why can't people just get along

Well mama never said a word as she patched my head
I figured she wasn't happy with me gettin' her out of bed
I said mama I hope you ain't mad
She said come on we're going back hey
Why can't people just get along

Why can't people just get along
What a world it would be
If we could all just have fun
'Cause it don't do nobody right
When it comes down to a fight hey
Why can't people just get along

Now when I got trouble ain't no one I'd rather have
Than my mama next to me with a broken bottle in her hand
She went in swingin' and when she got through
Everybody saw her point of view she said
Why can't people just get along

Why can't people just get along
What a world it would be
If we could all just have fun
'Cause it don't do nobody right
When it comes down to a fight hey
Why can't people just get along

Well now things don't always run smooth in a honky tonk
And some nights somebody's gonna rub somebody wrong
And in those isolated incidents
We all loose our common sense hey
Why can't people just get along

Why can't people just get along
What a world it would be
If we could all just have fun
'Cause it don't do nobody right
When it comes down to a fight hey
Why can't people just get along

[Smiley]

Serenity now :banana:

Dam Pete, I will have to log on during the day to catch all the action before it disapears. Nice work though !

[jhcakilmer]

Bane away, Pete. People that start attacking personally, and can't control the maliciousness of there responses don't deserve the freedom to speak, atleast on this forum.

I don't agree with the outright banning of certain topics.....it's coddling those individuals that lack self-control, among stifling our cognition!

The relative anonymity of the forum media, can bring out the best, and the worse in people.

I try not to get "emotionally" involved in subjective issues, like politics, but if I have offended anyone, ever......I sincerely apologize, but I try to keep it civil>

[BumbleBeeDave]

Am I the only one who can't understand why people seem to keep bringing the disruptive subjects up on here time after time after time? Politics, religion, complaints about "across the hall". . .

When I first started in newspapers back in the 80's (That's the NINETEEN-eighties) my first boss was a real pr--uh, character. But he did give me one piece of advice that has proven to be solid gold. He told me whenever something gets you livid, outraged, exercised, or angry, always, always, ALWAYS wait 24 hours before doing ANYTHING. It allows you to think up the totally appropriate response--which is usually no response. I've disregarded that advice on occasion over the years, ALWAYS regretting that I did not wait that 24 hours. :(

End of parable . . .

BBD

[girlie]

Well once again I think that people have a right to speak.
These people own bike related businesses and use that forum for marketing. And with that in mind they set themselves up for the possibility for negative consequences. If it were simply a bike forum...the other one...and not also for friends and marketing...that maybe a different story.

Just because people know them does not make them untouchable. We do it to Lance Armstrong and other. Fair is fair. I mean look what 'Cheap Noodle Brand' said to me and other and that thread was not deleted.

Negative press...is a consequence of their design.
girlie

[BumbleBeeDave]

I don't completely understand this. What does this have to do with what Pete is talking about?

BBD

Well once again I think that people have a right to speak.
These people own businesses and use that forum for marketing. And with that in mind they set themselves up for the possibility for negative consequences. If it were simply a bike forum...the other one...and not also for friends and marketing...that maybe a different story.

Just because people know them does not make them untouchable. We do it to Lance Armstrong and other. Fair is fair. I mean look what 'Noodle Brand' said to me and other and that thread was not deleted.

Negative press...is a consequence of their design.
girlie

[girlie]

I don't completely understand this. What does this have to do with what Pete is talking about?

BBD

And I am not sure how you can't understand how it is related??????
Be glad to pm over it...send me a ?
Best,
girlie

[Blue Jays]

My vote is for bicycle forums that focus upon bicycles, bicycling, & cyclists in our great sport. This is one of the few places to exchange cycling knowledge.
There are plenty of other places on the intrawebz to chat about contemporary politics.

[keno]

in fairness, the "lispstick on a pig thread" has 156 posts and 3,385 views and is political. It has remained entirely civil. I think that each thread should be viewed by Pete, or anyone else, for that matter, on its own merits.

As for sticking solely to topics bicycle, in the common time you and I have been on this forum, other than current events there is not much new under the sun. Some current events relate to bikes and cycling, others not. If you look at some of the most popular threads, I believe that the "others not'' have an extremely large following. Incidentally, I would put the trials of Lance in the "others not" category for the most part. For me, another Campy/Shimano caged, death-match thread is the stuff root canals without anesthetic are made. So when such a thread appears, I leave it be. (Not to mention the fact that I believe that if I were to ask you if people should be allowed to ask advice relating to travel, places to live, medical issues, financial issues, movies, music, books, etc. you would likely say "yes" to most. I could be wrong, in which case...)

Each to his own.

keno

[Fixed]

imho we should only say things we would say face to face
but that is me
cheers :beer:

[girlie]

imho we should only say things we would say face to face
but that is me
cheers :beer:

I agree though would add that you and the other person would need to be standing alone face to face without a posy.....you know to make it fair.

[News Man]

Pete,

I would disagree that LegendRider should or would have been banned here for the posts he made over there. Political debates run rampant here.

As for bringing the discussion here, that is your call, but were there established policies in place to discourage this?

Banning posts about politics, religion and "across the hall" threads would go a long way toward civility.

Banning people should not take place without several willful violations of board policy.

The key is to set out the rules very clearly and consistently enforce them. It would make your life easier.

[Fixed]

I agree though would add that you and the other person would need to be standing alone face to face without a posy.....you know to make it fair.
we could learn from the japanese ..they don't mind killing you but it must be done politely.
cheers :beer:

[michael white]

imho we should only say things we would say face to face
but that is me
cheers :beer:


this is the key, and it's what I hate about the internet.

I really like Sachs, and I'm sad that the occasion of his return had to be like that.

but Viper can be amusing, too. . . so I don't know. . .

[BumbleBeeDave]

in fairness, the "lispstick on a pig thread" has 156 posts and 3,385 views and is political. It has remained entirely civil. I think that each thread should be viewed by Pete, or anyone else, for that matter, on its own merits.

I agree with you. That thread has remianed civil--and that's why it's still open. I locked the "across the hall" thread when the personal attacks began. That's what is prohibited by forum rules. I try to do exactly what you say--view each thread on its own. But I also have to keep experience in mind--and political threads in particular have a very high "dissolve-in-flames" ratio. :rolleyes:

And Girlie . . . I'm not trying to be flippant. I truly don't understand the comparison you were making. LegendRider was complaining because he had been banned based on his political posts--it didn't seem to have anything to do with negative comentary about anybody's business interests.

BBD

[girlie]

we could learn from the japanese ..they don't mind killing you but it must be done politely.
cheers :beer:

I promise it will be with honor and respect...step right up;)
I won't even hire anyone else to do it...or persuade others to do it - there in lies the honor and respect.
girlie

[Fixed]

tsuki kake no itaranu sato ha nakere tomo
nakamuru hito no kokoro ni so sumu




There is no land where the moonlight does not reach,
Finding a place in the hearts of those
who would abide in its light.



kompei
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Bx-niB61o

[girlie]

Speaking of Light (http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/cave.htm)

[Sandy]

I agree with you. That thread has remianed civil--and that's why it's still open. I locked the "across the hall" thread when the personal attacks began. That's what is prohibited by forum rules. I try to do exactly what you say--view each thread on its own. But I also have to keep experience in mind--and political threads in particular have a very high "dissolve-in-flames" ratio. :rolleyes:

And Girlie . . . I'm not trying to be flippant. I truly don't understand the comparison you were making. LegendRider was complaining because he had been banned based on his political posts--it didn't seem to have anything to do with negative comentary about anybody's business interests.

BBD

I assume the thread has been deleted so I cannot reread any of it. But I don't think that LegendRider "was complaining because he had been banned based on his political posts..." I think he was complaining about something else and the political post just happened to be the context in which the banning occurred. Maybe I misunderstood what I read.


Sandy

[girlie]

And Girlie . . . I'm not trying to be flippant. I truly don't understand the comparison you were making. LegendRider was complaining because he had been banned based on his political posts--it didn't seem to have anything to do with negative comentary about anybody's business interests.

BBD

If the other forum is used as a marketing tool for bike companies it is fair game to be criticized on another bike forum.
Personal actions effect business....and if you put yourself out there as one kind of person...a person to buy from. Then if someone feels otherwise and finds your marketing tool offensive.
FAIR GAME in my book.
Also, I was referring to forumites getting banned here for speaking badly about others when it happens all the time - "old school bread brand" did it very openly then there is bashing of Lance Armstrong. Well Lance is someones friend and even someones son. Concerning bike celebrities/names and topics - fair game on a bike forum. Just cause you know someone and they are your friend that should not give them special rules - or make them exempt from fair and even evaluation/play.

It's not like his complaint was out of thin air...he was taking issue with the marketing tool - the other forum.
girlie

[capybaras]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exGJsv6ZNlo&feature=related

[Fixed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVAQ0rvtxaI&feature=related
kompei :beer:

[palincss]

If the other forum is used as a marketing tool for bike companies it is fair game to be criticized on another bike forum.
Personal actions effect business....and if you put yourself out there as one kind of person...a person to buy from. Then if someone feels otherwise and finds your marketing tool offensive.
FAIR GAME in my book.
Also, I was referring to forumites getting banned here for speaking badly about others when it happens all the time - "Cheap Noodle Brand" and Lance Armstrong is someones son too. Concerning bike celebrities/names and topics - fair game on a bike forum.
That be that simple...in my book.
It's not like his complaint was out of thin air...he was taking issue with the marketing tool - the other forum.
girlie

His issue was political. It had nothing whatever to do with marketing bicycles or their components. Furthermore, I see no more marketing there than here; and I don't see it here. Aside from the occasional would-be entrepreneur talking about a product like leather bar tape, I don't see anything there that even remotely resembles "a marketing tool for bike companies". I see opinionated individuals airing their views -- just like here.

Besides, what you think is "fair game" means nothing, as you're not an administrator over there. It's not a democracy. If you can't get over that, perhaps you shouldn't play.

[girlie]

His issue was political. It had nothing whatever to do with marketing bicycles or their components. Furthermore, I see no more marketing there than here; and I don't see it here. Aside from the occasional would-be entrepreneur talking about a product like leather bar tape, I don't see anything there that even remotely resembles "a marketing tool for bike companies". I see opinionated individuals airing their views -- just like here.

Besides, what you think is "fair game" means nothing, as you're not an administrator over there. It's not a democracy. If you can't get over that, perhaps you shouldn't play.

He was attacking the forum which is a marketing tool.
They are not banning here.
My "fair game" was an opinion - same as the one you just put on me :D
And every thread over there is not bike related.....and to say it is is bull****.
I read there cause they are funny and smart.
But I do not like their boys club or cult mentality so I don't play...so what are you talking about?
girlie

[Ahneida Ride]

I "grew up" with the crew across the hall. They were there even before this
asylum was run by the Big Kuhuna. (many many moons ago)

How can I forget ? (hey ....remember thoses pop up ads ...?)
I will always love, respect, and admire the crew.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . it might behoove us all to simply move on.

BBD

[WadePatton]

hehehehe,

he said BEHOOVE! :banana:

[BumbleBeeDave]

It just seemed like the right word to use as I sit here at home in front of my computer masticating.

BBD

[1centaur]

My vote is for bicycle forums that focus upon bicycles, bicycling, & cyclists in our great sport. This is one of the few places to exchange cycling knowledge.
There are plenty of other places on the intrawebz to chat about contemporary politics.

I very much disagree. There are plenty of forums on which only bicycling topics are discussed. There are plenty of forums on which only politics are discussed, but mostly by people who are mental about politics, highly polarized, incredibly dismissive, and happy to ape talking points from their political party.

Only here do I see people who care more about cycling talk about politics, people who don't define themselves by their politics and thereby make the discussion far more enjoyable, more representative of regular folks sitting around a cafe talking about the issues. I take the pulse of the country here.

We all "know" each other here in various contexts and so are more genial with those who are wrong :) It's like sitting with a group of friends and chatting about the elections and somebody saying "no, we should never talk about politics, I only want to talk about what we talk about 98% of the time." And yes, cycling is discussed here 98% of the time (I counted through 50,000 posts so I know; it took me over a month and used up my vacation days). Except it's worse, because in that group of real live chatting friends there is no option to talk about something else, but here it's completely up to each person to choose to never open a political topic, or an OT topic of any sort. This forum can be 100% about cycling if that's the way you want to experience it. That's not the way I want to experience it, and judging from the number of views and posts on the political threads I am not alone. We are curious, involved, thoughtful people who happen to cyclists. I go to 3-5 forums every day. I come here first for what's different, not what's the same.

The political threads have mostly been pretty decent lately. We have improved. The mods have let things run and we've paid them back by being cordial. Works for me.

[CNY rider]

It just seemed like the right word to use as I sit here at home in front of my computer masticating.

BBD


Dave if you go blind who will moderate? ;)

[Pete Serotta]

Dave if you go blind who will moderate? ;)


He has a voice (bee) key board or hive ;)

[BumbleBeeDave]

Dave if you go blind who will moderate? ;)

. . . sitting here in front of my screen chewing my dinner make me go blind? :rolleyes:

Are you accusing me of being an antidisestablishmentarian? ;)

Does this mean I'm not welcome at DirtPhalt? What about that, anyway? Is it still happening?

BBD

[Pete Serotta]

Disagreement is fine. Political without attack (personal) is semi alright.

Bringing the discussion here was not alright. If anything the other forum has a stronger management structure that we do here. (and that is my fault for I am trying to keep an open information exchange). Many have asked me to ban political threads and have made some very valid arguments. While it would be easier for me to do that, it is not in the interest of a informative/friend info sharing they we envision here. THere are LOTS of smart, well informed people here and I and others learn from them. The "few" mess it up for others. One has been banned permanently and two have been sent the "final" request to behave.


People should be civil for the sake of being civil no matter the subject.

Banning is not done lightly but it is also not a public debate on who should be banned and also a posting of who was banned. (yeah there are ways to find out but that is the way the application works.

PoliticalRider made a post here - "that is how this entire mess started" :no:

As to established policies - it is not a court of law and is a court of common courtesy.. When I and/or the other moderators feel that has been violated it becomes "1" warning and the ID is banned.


I have seen some VERY GOOD interaction on the Pig with Lipstick and that was what the NEWS called it. We voiced opinions without "serious" attack on specific groups and without ANY personal attacks. WHy we can not behave in this "business" manner always is beyond me and maybe someone can educate me.

Censoring or closing a thread punishes all for the mis deeds of a few


Pete,

I would disagree that LegendRider should or would have been banned here for the posts he made over there. Political debates run rampant here.

As for bringing the discussion here, that is your call, but were there established policies in place to discourage this?

Banning posts about politics, religion and "across the hall" threads would go a long way toward civility.

Banning people should not take place without several willful violations of board policy.

The key is to set out the rules very clearly and consistently enforce them. It would make your life easier.

[Ray]

I very much disagree. There are plenty of forums on which only bicycling topics are discussed. There are plenty of forums on which only politics are discussed, but mostly by people who are mental about politics, highly polarized, incredibly dismissive, and happy to ape talking points from their political party.

Only here do I see people who care more about cycling talk about politics, people who don't define themselves by their politics and thereby make the discussion far more enjoyable, more representative of regular folks sitting around a cafe talking about the issues. I take the pulse of the country here.

We all "know" each other here in various contexts and so are more genial with those who are wrong :) It's like sitting with a group of friends and chatting about the elections and somebody saying "no, we should never talk about politics, I only want to talk about what we talk about 98% of the time." And yes, cycling is discussed here 98% of the time (I counted through 50,000 posts so I know; it took me over a month and used up my vacation days). Except it's worse, because in that group of real live chatting friends there is no option to talk about something else, but here it's completely up to each person to choose to never open a political topic, or an OT topic of any sort. This forum can be 100% about cycling if that's the way you want to experience it. That's not the way I want to experience it, and judging from the number of views and posts on the political threads I am not alone. We are curious, involved, thoughtful people who happen to cyclists. I go to 3-5 forums every day. I come here first for what's different, not what's the same.

The political threads have mostly been pretty decent lately. We have improved. The mods have let things run and we've paid them back by being cordial. Works for me.
+173,468 (I have a high opinion of myself, and a very specific one as well)

Discussing politics on a political site is either like talking into an echo chamber or all-out warfare. Since we know each other due to other interests here, we treat each other like people, rather than like ideologies. Like sitting around at lunch with people I work(ed) with. Rarely does a discussion change anyone's mind, but sometimes things are learned, a new perspective is gained. I find it useful and mostly enjoyable. And when its not, I walk away. Its an approach I recommend!

-Ray

[Blue Jays]

An area for off, off-off, and super-off topic content would be just the ticket.

[michael white]

+173,468 (I have a high opinion of myself, and a very specific one as well)

Discussing politics on a political site is either like talking into an echo chamber or all-out warfare. Since we know each other due to other interests here, we treat each other like people, rather than like ideologies. Like sitting around at lunch with people I work(ed) with. Rarely does a discussion change anyone's mind, but sometimes things are learned, a new perspective is gained. I find it useful and mostly enjoyable. And when its not, I walk away. Its an approach I recommend!

-Ray

Ray and Centaur1 are perfect examples of why the political is a healthy, interesting forum topic. They both really try hard at it, put serious thought as well as personal insight into it, and there's just no telling how many of the rest of us semi-serious fools enjoy the exchange and think a little harder about things as a result.

[bironi]

+173,468 (I have a high opinion of myself, and a very specific one as well)

Discussing politics on a political site is either like talking into an echo chamber or all-out warfare. Since we know each other due to other interests here, we treat each other like people, rather than like ideologies. Like sitting around at lunch with people I work(ed) with. Rarely does a discussion change anyone's mind, but sometimes things are learned, a new perspective is gained. I find it useful and mostly enjoyable. And when its not, I walk away. Its an approach I recommend!

-Ray

Ray, I'm with you on this one. I stay away from political sites for the very same reasons you state. I'm also behind the moderators making some judgment calls about those posters who want to stir the pot, and nothing more, but I'm also for lively intelligent debate.

[WadePatton]

Look out BBD has his reference materials out and is masticating...

A political or OT section would be nice--just to keep the general discussion thread a bit more bike oriented. Yes I agree that I'd rather discuss politics with this crowd than most others--but I get tired of that stuff popping up all the time when I don't care to participate. And that's why I rarely click on the stuff.

[BumbleBeeDave]

People should be civil for the sake of being civil no matter the subject.

. . . does here anyone need to know than this? :confused:

It is the Golden Rule. It is SO simple.

And Ray . . . I think you underestimate yourself. I'd rate you at least a +173,471 . . . ;)

BBD

[michael white]

. . . does here anyone need to know than this? :confused:

It is the Golden Rule. It is SO simple.

And Ray . . . I think you underestimate yourself. I'd rate you at least a +173,471 . . . ;)

BBD

Well, the Golden Rule is fine and dandy, but what if all the others are a pack of fricking idiots?

:)

(jk)

[BumbleBeeDave]

Well, the Golden Rule is fine and dandy, but what if all the others are a pack of fricking idiots?

:)

(jk)

I strongly resemble that remark! :banana:

BBD

[Ray]

And Ray . . . I think you underestimate yourself. I'd rate you at least a +173,471 . . . ;)
You're MUCH too kind.

-Ray

[cadence90]

Diverse discussions and civil postings are fine imho; bashing is fruitless and boring. In this particular period, I sure don't see why discussions on politics or economics should be dismissed. After all, this forum respects to a high degree most poster's threads about bikes, components, cars, etc; why shouldn't we be free to engage in and respect discussions on other pertinent issues?

It's pretty easy to ignore topics that one doesn't want to partake in; otoh relegating this forum to "bike exclusive" status could easily render it like so many of the other cycling forums, which I suspect many people here abandoned because they were either bored of repetitive discussions on the same old cycling topics or fed up with all the ridiculous infighting.

I vote for allowing all salient topics, for their variety, instruction/information and entertainment, even discussions on coffee grinders, destroyed sandwiches while messengering, and drapery contractors. ;)

[rounder]

Disagreement is fine. Political without attack (personal) is semi alright.

Bringing the discussion here was not alright. If anything the other forum has a stronger management structure that we do here. (and that is my fault for I am trying to keep an open information exchange). Many have asked me to ban political threads and have made some very valid arguments. While it would be easier for me to do that, it is not in the interest of a informative/friend info sharing they we envision here. THere are LOTS of smart, well informed people here and I and others learn from them. The "few" mess it up for others. One has been banned permanently and two have been sent the "final" request to behave.


I don't know about a management structure for this forum, but you are a good manager. I think a lot of the threads i have seen here, including the political ones, are the most interesting things i have ever read. I go across the hall to read their stuff...and it is good and interesting (it's great if you like bikes!!). But that place is a lot more narrow focused, compared to this place, and they want to keep it that way and there is nothing wrong with that. I say that, but also want to say i have mucho respect for all of the posters there and everyone one of them knows a hell of a lot more about bikes than me...not to mention that some of them actually build their own stuff. Anyway, i just wanted to say that i think you are doing a great job. It's got to be tough to moderate this place. Thanks.

[John H.]

Where is across the hall?

[girlie]

I guess I'm confused.
I'd like to know where I have stepped out of line?
Not to be a pain rather to understand.....I sincerely feel as thought I have neutrally stated my opinions and points without being personally attacking of anyone or in anyway uncivil.
I am asking for guidance on how I could have better expressed my opinions.
Who I insulted and how I could have been a better person.
Thanks in Advance,
Kim Blodgett

[girlie]

Actually FINE ban me....because if I cannot state my opinions in the civil manner, I have been thoughtful to put forth. Then this is not a place I want to belong. Part of the reason I started to really enjoy Serotta forum was the range and the different voices...but if I am supposed to conform my brain and views to accommodate personal friends - BAN ME....but I will not leave on my own will you will have to do the dirty thing of banning a member who has been civil....because of some loyalty to the past-forum.

The new forum is happening in front of you. At first it may not be great...it will digress but it will grow and expand if you let it. I was so happy to see the political thread not only be allowed but become more civil partly due to their acceptance, I believe.....people sometimes need to learn respect and limits this whole forum web thing is somewhat new and WE are all learning and doing the best we can. Stop living in the past and let the new forum develop. And yeah it is going to be a reaction to the old one - how could it not? But that is not nor will it be all the forum becomes...that is if it is allowed to grow. People are still a little sore...it will go away or evolve. Calm down and let it be - be patient or this forum will die:(

Sincerely,
Kim Blodgett

[Blue Jays]

Peace and best wishes to all, wherever they may share their insights.

[ti_boi]

What Hall? What Kids?

[girlie]

What Hall? What Kids?

They are my all time favorite comedy crew!
Seriously LOVE them,
girlie

[cadence90]

Let Freedom Ring...Here. Now. Always. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzORu1dqEE0)

[Climb01742]

Ray and Centaur1 are perfect examples of why the political is a healthy, interesting forum topic. They both really try hard at it, put serious thought as well as personal insight into it, and there's just no telling how many of the rest of us semi-serious fools enjoy the exchange and think a little harder about things as a result.

yep.

[bostondrunk]

...

As for sticking solely to topics bicycle, in the common time you and I have been on this forum, other than current events there is not much new under the sun......


We could discuss again how tubulars rule and clinchers suck. :beer:

[bostondrunk]

yep.

Climb, what the hell are you doing up that early (4AM?)? You changing diapers too?? :)

[paczki]

Actually FINE ban me....because if I cannot state my opinions in the civil manner, I have been thoughtful to put forth. Then this is not a place I want to belong. Part of the reason I started to really enjoy Serotta forum was the range and the different voices...but if I am supposed to conform my brain and views to accommodate personal friends - BAN ME....but I will not leave on my own will you will have to do the dirty thing of banning a member who has been civil....because of some loyalty to the past-forum.

The new forum is happening in front of you. At first it may not be great...it will digress but it will grow and expand if you let it. I was so happy to see the political thread not only be allowed but become more civil partly due to their acceptance, I believe.....people sometimes need to learn respect and limits this whole forum web thing is somewhat new and WE are all learning and doing the best we can. Stop living in the past and let the new forum develop. And yeah it is going to be a reaction to the old one - how could it not? But that is not nor will it be all the forum becomes...that is if it is allowed to grow. People are still a little sore...it will go away or evolve. Calm down and let it be - be patient or this forum will die:(

Sincerely,
Kim Blodgett


Are you serious? You were warned? This is very lame. I'm sick of this rubbish. Goodbye.

[Climb01742]

Climb, what the hell are you doing up that early (4AM?)? You changing diapers too?? :)

couldn't sleep. a work problem popped into my head @ 3:30AM and i couldn't get it out. if only there was a diaper genie for work problems. :rolleyes: as sucky as changing diapers at 4AM is, isn't it nice to see your baby smile after they're all cleaned-up? of course that's a better memory than it is a daily reality. :beer:

[rwsaunders]

An area for off, off-off, and super-off topic content would be just the ticket.

+1 to Blue Jays idea....because we are all inquiring minds.

I'll take a stand and say that LegendRider is a class act, based upon the dealings that I have had with him via the classifieds and via off-Forum email about cycling issues. I don't really know if he's black, white, republican, democrat or if he hails from Roswell. If I don't like his posts, I don't read them.

I do know that he's passionate about cycling and the he's passionate enough about the Serotta brand to have the word "Legend" in his Fourm name. Give this guy a break and Girlie too. If she took the time to spend a day riding with big William and the crew, she must be ok.

Pete, BBDave and the rest of the mods, you do an outstanding job of keeping the mojo going. We have lost some brain power, though, as a result of the Forum split, which has nothing to do with the mods. That has caused me to visit both sites for my daily dose of cycling insight and offbeat topics. Too bad I can't type very fast or I would have a few more opinions too. :cool:

[giordana93]

am I the only one who doesn't know where "across the hall" is?

[keno]

laughed out loud.

"Over here, dad." Gilbert Gottfried

keno

[Fixed]

am I the only one who doesn't know where "across the hall" is?
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=1
i visit both forums stop by and say hi to your old pals imho
cheers :beer:

[TMB]

Actually FINE ban me....because if I cannot state my opinions in the civil manner, I have been thoughtful to put forth. Then this is not a place I want to belong. Part of the reason I started to really enjoy Serotta forum was the range and the different voices...but if I am supposed to conform my brain and views to accommodate personal friends - BAN ME....but I will not leave on my own will you will have to do the dirty thing of banning a member who has been civil....because of some loyalty to the past-forum.

The new forum is happening in front of you. At first it may not be great...it will digress but it will grow and expand if you let it. I was so happy to see the political thread not only be allowed but become more civil partly due to their acceptance, I believe.....people sometimes need to learn respect and limits this whole forum web thing is somewhat new and WE are all learning and doing the best we can. Stop living in the past and let the new forum develop. And yeah it is going to be a reaction to the old one - how could it not? But that is not nor will it be all the forum becomes...that is if it is allowed to grow. People are still a little sore...it will go away or evolve. Calm down and let it be - be patient or this forum will die:(

Sincerely,
Kim Blodgett

This has become ridiculous.

A group of people left of their own volition because they no longer liked it here.

Now this forum walks on egg-shells because they people that left are still "friends".

That may be or not, but this forum, as it is today, is not being allowed to develop and grow on its own.

There was nothing in the thread that was deleted to give rise to bans or warnings.

Sad.

I think I, too have got to the point of just being tired of the navel gazing and the walking on egg shells and the trying to figure out what is allowed and not , and ............

It's been fun for a while.

Please feel free to ban me as well.

[girlie]

Yeah this is ridiculous.

The other hall has fun threads like this thread all about bikes and it is so informative. While we are under a reign of fear of crossing some line of past forum loyalty.

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2479

Whatever it is funny and entertaining. I may not play there but they do have more fun there!

Guess I'm tired of being yelled at and seeing people banned (or scolded) that I enjoy sharing cyberspace with.
girlie

[Fixed]

i enjoy your post girlie your point of view is great
cheers imho

[William]

Seriously,

I don't see where Kim (aka: Girlie) crossed any line of being offensive to the point of warranting a warning or possible banning. Pete, you ban Girlie, ban me too. This is getting freakin ridiculous.



William

[Sandy]

Perhaps the solution to the ongoing we versus they problem and its obvious negative ramifications is to ban threads of that nature and not some of those who have participated in such making some strong statements based upon their genuine beliefs.

There is the Serotta Forum and the relatively new forum formed by some who used to post on the Serotta Forum but did not like certain limitations/ treatment on this forum. People tend to prefer interacting at a place in which they are most comfortable and find most attractive relative to the content/ mode of interaction/ moderator control/people involved. There are apparent differences in the two forums. The new forum has some extremely knowledgeable posters, some of whom were very prolific on this forum, but no longer post here or post in a much more limited manner. The degree of moderator control on the new forum has clearly been much greater than what occurs here, with posts being deleted, and moderator warnings being initiated much faster than here. Some here question the fairness of that control when they visited there and whether intervention by moderators is equal to all at the other forum. No doubt, this thread would not even be allowed on the other forum nor would a direct reference/link to this forum probably be allowed. The core of the other forum is probably more homogeneous than this one relative to cycling interests and what is important. That forum will stand and evolve on its own merits.

There is some genuine animosity between a few relative to the two forums. I suggest that one simply choose whichever forum he or she is comfortable with and visit/post on one or both. But the continual hostility between members of each is not helpful and is genuinely hurting this forum. That is most evident.

Those who might have been banned here and/or received a stern warning are probably some of the most vocal and emotional posters we have. They also are some of the most insightful and bright. I think they should stay and these type of threads should be banned forever on this forum. Allowing threads of this nature to continue guarantees perpetuation of ill feelings that should simply end.

Ban the threads. Keep the posters.


Sandy

[thwart]

That may be or not, but this forum, as it is today, is not being allowed to develop and grow on its own. There was nothing in the thread that was deleted to give rise to bans or warnings. Sad. I think I, too have got to the point of just being tired of the navel gazing and the walking on egg shells and the trying to figure out what is allowed and not , and ............
Well, it's raining hard and I can't get the motivation going to ride the rollers this morning. :rolleyes:

So... don't know much about the specifics of this, but I have read through this thread... haven't seen the infamous deleted one, however. Or girlie's "infraction".

My impression is this Forum is certainly imperfect, but still worth my attention.

Pete, BBD, et al seem to be doing the best they can, and making decisions about closing threads and such in a reasonable way. From my perspective, anyway.

I was disappointed to see folks leave for the board across the hall earlier this year, and feel the same about people like toomanybikes and girlie. They add a lot to the discussion here, as far as I'm concerned. I hope they change their mind and stick around.

[Bruce K]

Lord knows we try to keep things on a fairly even keel.

Personally, I try not to lock stuff until it gets into personal attacks or seems to be heading that way in a hurry. The other reason I lock stuff or delete it is if it's offensive or going to be offensive to some reasonable group of folks.

I leave the banning and the closing of political stuff to Pete though based on what's been said to me in the last few weeks about the political threads and people's feelings about them, I would be locking them as soon as they appear.

We can only try and be reasonable and have some fun here.

Girlie and William, I hope this all settles down.

BK

[slowgoing]

Banning threads is one thing, but banning posters (i) with no advanced notice (ii) based upon some alleged infraction that is not even in the rules, (iii) all because a post might be objectionable to the moderator's personal friends (iv) who are purportedly "friends of the forum" even though they left here long ago, is not cool. There is a fine line between acting in the best interest of the forum and the best interests of your friends. I believe that line has been crossed.

And ban girlie? Are you kidding me?

Am I banned for even posting this?

[92degrees]

Banning threads is one thing, but banning posters (i) with no advanced notice (ii) based upon some alleged infraction that is not even in the rules, (iii) all because a post might be objectionable to the moderator's personal friends (iv) who are purportedly "friends of the forum" even though they left here long ago, is not cool. There is a fine line between acting in the best interest of the forum and the best interests of your friends. I believe that line has been crossed.

And ban girlie? Are you kidding me?

Am I banned for even posting this?

No, you are on double secret probation.

[Blue Jays]

It was wonderful meeting folks from both sides of the hall @ the Finger Lakes Ramble several weeks ago.
Two unique enthusiast groups can certainly coexist.

[Lifelover]

What I love about the Serotta forum is that we CAN have this discussion. It would never be tolerated there. That said, I go easily do without any "Across the hall threads"

P.S. I'm also on the list of folks Swoop has banned forever. I hope that doesn't get me banned here.

[cadence90]

It's amazing and a bit sad that 3 or 5 or 8 posts out of the 100s (at least) posted here each day can polarize and even militarize both the plebes and the powers that be.

Lock/delete directly vicious threads; ban only those who continually troll or personally attack (even ex-members if they only come here to relatiate, as far as I'm concerned); let the rest of the discourse go on as it has, informative, civil, funny, and if "different" that's fine too.

It may not be a court of law, but it isn't someone's own living room either. Sometimes soapboxes get raucous. Big deal. :rolleyes:

+1 with toomanybikes, girlie, and slowgoing.

[csm]

what amazes me is how those 6 or 8 posts stir up such rancor.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . Oh my goodness. I though this brouhaha was dying down and I go out for a nice long ride (70 miles--felt great--Woo-hoo!) and I return to, well, to THIS.

Toomanybikes is right: this IS ridiculous. What is UP with you people, anyway? Lifelover is also right: a thread like this wouldn't last five minutes in most other bike forums. Don't you people have anything else to do?

Let me recap for those of you who missed the first exciting episode. A person who is--or was--a member of both forums got banned on the other forum for a political thread. So that person came over here to get some support. Some offered it. Some did not. The thread dissolved into personal attacks upon someone on the other forum--someone who is still a member in good standing in BOTH forums. That person sent PM's to me and Pete to complain. I had been following the thread as it developed and locked it in response to what was clearly a bad situation. Pete then made the decision to delete the thread.

Now there is THIS thread, where people are debating ad nauseum whether that thread should have been deleted. Whether THIS thread should be deleted. Whether Girlie should be banned. Whether OTHER people should be banned. Whether PETE should still be moderator.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!! ENOUGH, ALREADY!

I hate doing this. I hate locking threads, so I do it ONLY if there are personal attacks. I don't EVER delete threads. (Except by accident. I did do that once. VERY embarrassing!) I don't ban people, though God knows sometimes I'd like to! Those are Pete's decisions because he's head admin. Would any of YOU like to be head admin? Show of hands please . . . nobody? I thought so.

Pete is a hell of a nice guy who does the best he can with a no-win situation. If somebody acts like an ass he can ask them nicely to stop. Or he can ask them not so nicely. Or he can ban them--which is a paper tiger anyway. Anybody who is banned can just pedal down to the local library, join from a different IP address, and keep spewing drivel. So he really depends on YOU to be nice people. ALL of you. That's right, EVERY one of you!

You should be grateful that Pete doesn't delete threads like this the moment he sees them! You have no idea how lucky you are to be able to all stand round here arguing in public on what is essentially the Speaker's Corner of the online cycling world. You've never heard of Speaker's Corner? It's in Hyde Park in London. Anybody can jump on the box and give a speech about whatever they want--and boy, DO they! The biggest assortment you have ever seen of politicos, wackos, yahoos, and crazies show up to talk their heads off. That's what you all have here and you have NO idea! You can sit around here and talk to your heart's content about all sorts of stuff that would NEVER be allowed "over there." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speakers%27_Corner)

So keep arguing like a bunch of little kids, people. Go right ahead. Annoy Pete until he quits. Then one of YOU can find out what it's like to try to herd this gaggle of cats. Or better yet, here's a novel idea: GO (GASP!) RIDE YOUR BIKES.

I'm locking this thread now. Please, PLEASE don't let there be an "across the hall-Part 3" thread, either, because if I see it I'm going to lock THAT one too. If you're pissed send me a PM, but please, PLEASE stop cluttering up the regular discussion bandwidth with this stuff. And if you have dirty laundry about the OTHER forum, good for you. DON'T AIR IT OVER HERE.

Rant officially over.

BBD