Anybody use a laser for bike fit?

[toaster]

Can someone recommend a laser level and tripod set-up to do bike fitting. It seems much better than plumb bobs.

[victoryfactory]

Paul Levine at Signature cycles used a laser during my fitting about 5
years ago to track my knee position while pedaling (from the front, as I remember) . I'm not really sure if
the laser provided any useful info, but he did use it. I think he wanted to see if
the knees were well centered over the pedals on my old bike and if adjustments
would be needed for the new bike. After the fitting, he adjusted my pedal cleats
for the old bike based on his findings before I rode off to wait for the new frame.
A pro touch by him, I thought.

Ultimately, a laser is just a high tech straight line measuring tool and there is no
reason to assume that it cannot help in the bike fitting process as it does in
many other fields from space technology to hanging pictures. They are pretty cheap
and available from many tool suppliers, It shouldn't be too hard to hook one
up to a tripod or work stand to use for fittings.

VF

[Peter P.]

My local bike shop uses a laser level and tripod picked up from Home Depot.

[ada@prorider.or]

well you can use it
then you can have a nonesense discussion that it is not in line deviation of 0,1 mm since it not inline


people who use it , i guess never raced them selve´s
and problely earn big buck with it.
Since the forget the most important thing like biomechanics of each single body

they think it must fit to the standard (at least what i have seen of those who used it)

[Ti Designs]

well you can use it
then you can have a nonesense discussion that it is not in line deviation of 0,1 mm since it not inline

people who use it , i guess never raced them selve´s
and problely earn big buck with it.
Since the forget the most important thing like biomechanics of each single body

they think it must fit to the standard (at least what i have seen of those who used it)


Yeh, what he said, 'cept in english, and applied to any tool.

A long time ago I told myself if I ever had more than 2000 posts on any forum, I'm wasting way too much time there. I'm there now, so I'll make this long winded, I'll try to piss off a few of the power meter people, and then I'll spend more time riding my bike, playing my piano or picking my nose - I'm getting good at one of them...


Jobs require tools. To do any job, one must show up with a tool box with the needed tools. You can try to use the wrong tool for the job, but at best it makes things harder. A tooth brush is a tool, as is a 15 amp sawzall. If you've ever tried to brush your teeth with the sawzall you know what I'm talking about - wrong tool for the job.

Fitting and coaching require tools as well. Lasers, video cameras and power meters are all just tools. The job site in this case is a cyclist. Cyclists come in all sizes and shapes, I even like to call them individuals sometimes 'cause as Cees pointed out, there is no standard. The body also adapts to what it's doing, which is to say that in this job site the nails move around, screws are always loose and the glue never dries. Getting more accurate measuring devices is pointless.

Someone once asked me why I hate fit schools and coaching certification programs as I do. It's simple really, it's what I call cook book fitting/coaching, and it would work fine if there were a standard cyclist - there isn't. Fitting and coaching require one thing that the business model on all these fit schools leave out - feedback. People go for a fitting, the fitter changes their position, and they leave thinking they're now in the right place on the bike. They never think that maybe the fitter wasn't right (I'm wrong 99% of the time, but on average I work with my riders about 50 times, so there's a good chance I'll get something right). Remember what I said about the body changing over time? That means the fitter couldn't be right now and 6 months from now, assuming you ride your bike. Anyway, these fit programs turn out fitters who then fit customers, but they never see the end results. They somehow got this impression that if they put someone in a good position, they're going to stay that way and ride that way. They don't!!! If they would get out there and ride with their clients they would see this. During the serotta fit school there was nothing said about riding with the client. None of the local fitting shops or studios offer an on-road evaluation. Recently I did a fitting on a girl who came to one of my shop's beginner rides and was sent my way. She was one of those cases where what I see on the trainer and what I see on the road are two different things, so we went for a ride the next morning. You guessed it, I was dead wrong, and we changed out bars and stem. Right about now you're thinking "well, Ed's always wrong...", but it ain't just me. I've been working with a number of riders who were fitted by another local fit studio - that's what they specialize in. What may have looked great on the trainer didn't do so well on the road, I had to start making changes. I don't ride with lasers, clearly my measurments aren't as accurate, but they make a huge difference...

So, now that I'm on a roll, I would like to pick on all the newest fitting systems. My own shop has a video fitting system which they would like me to start using. It's a tool, it has it's advantages and disadvantages. Clearly, the people who don't ride with their clients (most fitters) don't see the disadvantages. They video fitting systems are great if all of your riding is to be done in the fit studio. As soon as the client leaves things start to change. Nobody is forming new cycling habits during a 2 hour fitting, and nobody is taking that video system home with them. It's not as high tech, it's not as accurate and it doesn't come with a DVD to take home, but I can do more with my clients to have them set up a big mirror next to their trainer...

Here's my answer to all of this: The shop should have and use their video fitting system. With video capture the fitter can print out one frame and play John Madden with a pen, drawing lines and circles all over it to show what's happening and what needs to happen. Then the customer buys, leases or borrows a cut down version of the same tools to reinforce the habits on the bike. Survalence cameras can be found for under $100, laser levels with tripods can be found for under $50, put them both on the same tripod and you have a $150 take home tool - I've spent more on a drill bit. Given a trainer, a tv in front of you, an image of what it should look like (the printout or DVD from the video fitting) and a camera, you can now reinforce good cycling habits. I use the laser line to point out what shouldn't be moving during the pedal stroke. One of my riders tore her ACL over the winter, she spent time on the trainer with the laser line on her femur and a mirror in front of her, she was allowed to produce power as long as that line was tracking. My point in all of this is that the body adapts and the learning process takes time. One time use tools in fitting don't make a whole lot of sense.

Now to piss off the power meter people. Power meters are great, they give you an output number that doesn't lie. it's not like heart rate which is the body's average of all the stresses, it's simply how much power you put out. Problem: it doesn't show efficientcy within the pedal stroke. I can jump up and down all day long on the pedal at the bottom of the pedal stroke and the power meter still reads zero. Tracking both heart rate and power over time can give you a better picture of the changes in efficientcy as the need for torque on the pedals increases (what I call pedalling ugly), but do these programs correct for this??? Most of my experienced riders use power meters, but if you can't turn the crank at high output without pushing in all the wrong directions, what's the point? Learn how to pedal the bike first, the numbers come later. Once again, the problem comes in where the power meter coaches don't ride with their clients (many don't live within 100 miles). It would be nice if you could use a trainer with power output and strain gauge pedals to show direction of force at any given point. This would be an exelent test to see if you're at the point where you can go by the power numbers or if you should be working on pedal stroke first - but then who would pay for a test that tells you it's not time for the cool toys?


OK, I've insulted the fit schools, the fit studios, the power meter folks... I can always edit this if I need to add anyone to the list. Time to wrap it up.


In the 70's PBS made a movie about John Allis and the Century Road Club in a stage race in Canada. In that movie (called the race for the yellow jersey) there's an interview with John where he says "at any time it's just you and that bicycle trying to get somewhere". That's really what it all boils down to. The bicycle by itself is nothing (can you get banned from this forum for saying that???), the fit without the rider means nothing. The bike is the easy part, they sell all sorts of bikes at bike shop. And think about this, if you're looking to buy a competitive advantage over your friends, they're looking for the same thing. Work on the rider, not the bike. bikes don't enjoy the sport.



Ed Sassler
ed@ti-designs.com

Edit:
We also use the video capturing software as a teaching tool and find that we talk less and show more. The software allows us to have "laser lines", etc. to show a rider a proper posture for their individual riding style and needs. a very useful tool, I think.

This is basicly echoed in every shop with a video capture fitting system, including the one I work at. It's a perfectly reasonable assumption that people will learn better if they can see themselves. Problem is, once they leave the fitting they can't.

My strongest suggestion for anyone looking to get into fitting or coaching is to take one new rider and make them into a good cyclist. You will be blown away by how slow a process and at times frustrating it can be. They don't see what they're doing, the feedback from their body is mostly wrong. Watch a new rider climb a hill from behind, watch the tension on the muscles. They think "it's a hill, I have to push harder", but what they really do is push down past the bottom of the pedal stroke. They always insist that they don't, but when I put them on a trainer and have them clipped in on one side the pedal gets glued to the bottom.

The one time fitting is good for tweeking the position of a rider, it's pretty much pointless in making a better rider - that's always been a point of frustration for me. People want to learn. They see the good riders out there almost float up hills, they want to be a part of that. You spend at least 12 years of your life in school, and somehow you're expected to learn cycling in 2 hours?

[benb]

Man maybe I need to make an appointment to come get a fitting with you and then go for a ride.

I swear I just do not sit on the bike the same when a fitter puts it on a trainer.

No amount of videos & lasers would seem to fix that.

It is such a mystery to me.. I swear my MTB positioning is more aggressive then my Serotta.. and yet the MTB is more comfy.

I love the power meter comments.. it was freakin awesome last month, friend of mine won the Mt. Equinox hillclimb.. up on the podium the announcer asked him for his secrets to training with power... "Uh.. I don't have a power meter."

[Volant]

Well said. :beer:

[victoryfactory]

Ed;

If that is really your last post (I really hope not)
It was a doozy.

I have long been sceptical of some aspects of current bike fitting practices
and it is great to see those concerns layed out so well.

VF

[dnades]

I like the idea of perfecting ones technique before improving power. I remember watching Sarah Hammer compete against a British gal on a track pursuit for one of the olympic events. Sarah's body was rocking back and forth in relation to her pedal stroke while the British gal was like a laser-absolutely no wasted motion. Needless to say the british gal won by a substantial amount. Perhaps Sarah was holding back because it was only one of the qualifying matches and she did end up qualifying. And I did not get to see her in any other race. It was really interesting to see the track events. There is just no room for any inefficient technique. It just becomes glaringly obvious.

Anyhow back to lasers- my take on them is that a plumb bob is more accurate. Lasers have a +/- dimension over a certain length (1/8" over 30'-cheap or 1/16 over 100'-very expensive) accuracy rating. Plus there is the thickness of the line to consider. A plumb bob is never out of plumb. I think a laser would be more useful though. Having a ray of light to guide one in improving technique would be less cumbersome than a string with a weight attached to it.

A laser to recommend would be the Hilti PML 32 (500.00) at home depot. It shoots a level and plumb line at the same time or independently. It looks like a cross hair in a scope. It is self leveling and the line thickness is about 1/16 of an inch. For the money it is a good balance between accuracy,portability, and dependability. Plus it doesn't cost a fortune to get it re-calibrated like some of the other brands. Mine is about 2 years old and has seen plenty of job sites and is still spot on.

Good luck.

[dauwhe]

I got fit at a studio once. Made all sorts of changes to my position, hardly ever explained what he was doing. Can't remember if there was a laser--I think so.

I left and went for a ride (up App Gap, so you'll know who the fitter was). It felt different. Over the next few months I gradually tweaked things, a millimeter here, a millimeter there. I think I slowly went back to my old position.

He did move my cleats back a lot, which helped. It was worth it for that, and only for that.

Dave

[CNY rider]

I got fit at a studio once. Made all sorts of changes to my position, hardly ever explained what he was doing. Can't remember if there was a laser--I think so.

I left and went for a ride (up App Gap, so you'll know who the fitter was). It felt different. Over the next few months I gradually tweaked things, a millimeter here, a millimeter there. I think I slowly went back to my old position.

Dave

Dave-pal I knew those Mad River canoe guys were crappy bike fitters!
You should have just asked me.

[dauwhe]

I knew I should have gone to the snowshoe factory in Stowe!

:crap:

More seriously, I wonder if my position, equipment, and goals were not what they had experience with--bars at saddle height, B17, fenders, happiness, etc.

Dave

[Adam]

I agree with Ed that fit changes over time as does fitness. For better or for worse. Either way, I am sure most Fitters would offer follow up sessions to take into account rider feedback. We do.

We also use the video capturing software as a teaching tool and find that we talk less and show more. The software allows us to have "laser lines", etc. to show a rider a proper posture for their individual riding style and needs. a very useful tool, I think.

Adam

[toaster]

Brilliant post, Ti Designs!

You covered much more than I had expected. What I was originally asking was really the use of a laser beam to inventory bike fit measurements like saddle position relative to bottom bracket and bar position relative to saddle position.

But since I left the door wide open we got a good essay on current fitting methods.

[Charles M]

I know a guy who uses a tazer for bike fit...


Don't tell him wobblenot doesn't apply to everyone :D

[znfdl]

Now to piss off the power meter people. Power meters are great, they give you an output number that doesn't lie. it's not like heart rate which is the body's average of all the stresses, it's simply how much power you put out. Problem: it doesn't show efficientcy within the pedal stroke.

How about the computrainer spinscan, I use it inconjunction with my SRM?

[android]

Anyhow back to lasers- my take on them is that a plumb bob is more accurate. Lasers have a +/- dimension over a certain length (1/8" over 30'-cheap or 1/16 over 100'-very expensive) accuracy rating. Plus there is the thickness of the line to consider. A plumb bob is never out of plumb. I think a laser would be more useful though. Having a ray of light to guide one in improving technique would be less cumbersome than a string with a weight attached to it.

A laser to recommend would be the Hilti PML 32 (500.00) at home depot. It shoots a level and plumb line at the same time or independently. It looks like a cross hair in a scope. It is self leveling and the line thickness is about 1/16 of an inch. For the money it is a good balance between accuracy,portability, and dependability. Plus it doesn't cost a fortune to get it re-calibrated like some of the other brands. Mine is about 2 years old and has seen plenty of job sites and is still spot on.

Good luck.

Cheap man's version. Buy the $25 laser and a $1 yo yo. Hang the yo yo on the wall. Shoot the laser at the string and wiggle and shim the laser until it follows the string perfectly. Now you have a truly vertical line. Insert bike and figure BB to saddle setbacks to you heart's delight.

[Birddog]

Buy the $25 laser and a $1 yo yo.
That's a great idea, and if that weren't enough, I've never been able to "walk the dog" with a plumb bob. For some measurements like saddle setback, I've found that a $12 drywall square works beautifully. It's especially handy when transferring measurements from one bike to another or comparing measurements from two or more bikes.

Birddog

[dogdriver]

I know a guy who uses a tazer for bike fit...


Don't tell him wobblenot doesn't apply to everyone :D

As we used to say in my previous life:

"Contrary to public opinion; fear, pain, sarcasm and ridcule ARE effecictive teaching methods.".

Nice post, Ti.

I hang my head in shame in admitting that, yes, I do have a Powertap (old wired one-- bought used for $300 including the wheel, so I don't feel too bad...). The most important thing it has taught me, however, is not to pedal HARD, but to relax and pedal ROUND. More for less-- how incredibly Zen...

My $.02, Chris