Leg Muscles Problem Question

[Sandy]

I have done almost no cycling this year. The only exercise that I have done is walking my dog every day at least twice a day on average and a little yard work. The walks are slow. Because of atypical (to heart disease) chest discomfort and very poor family heart history including two siblings with major heart problems, I took a thalium stress test on August 28. As I had been doing no real exercise, and I wanted to have a little aerobic capacity for the stress test, I did the treadmill 5-6 times for 45 minutes the two weeks prior to the test. I warmed up very slowly, never exceeded 3.3 mph, but did work at the highest elevation (slowly reaching that point) of 15, whatever that is. I found the treadmill exercise not too difficult.

The great news- I did very well on the test and the cardiologist said "my heart is perfect", after receiving the data from the tests. That was great news since I am 67 and have such a poor family history of heart disease.

The problem is that I am having genuine problems with my leg muscles after doing the stress test and the 5-6 days on the treadmill. I want to start riding again, but am having leg discomfort/pain/minor cramping when I walk the dog. It hurts to bend over and pick up anything and even bothers me when I am trying to sleep. I find that when I am getting up from the floor or off the sofa, I am using my arms more and legs less than previously.

Most of the discomfort/minor pain is in the upper thigh and groin area (in that order) of both legs, but more in the left. I guess I strained my legs on the treadmill. It has been two weeks almost since the stress test and I don't seem to be getting much better.

Any suggestions please? Do you think that it would be ok to try to ride my trainer easily? Should I see a sports medicine doctor?

Thanks for any suggestions!!!


Sandy

[WadePatton]

Gentle cycling is easier than walking and I don't see how it could hurt--but strongly recommend a second opinion from a medical background (preferably not a pill-pusher or scalpel brandisher).

Ride easy--should make it better or worse.

CONGRATS on the heart check up! You are what you eat and our SAD (standard american diet) is turning folks into horrible messes. 80% of all the maladies are diet/lifestyle caused according to a doc fellow I know.

[Ginger]

Sandy, I've spent a lot of time in physical therapy with old people. The biggest problem they have is getting past the thought that physical effort is going to cause some physical discomfort. First they just push into it, then it aches so they go as far as to avoid anything that makes the sore muscles cause them any pain and it's just a nasty spiral into laying on the couch and slipping into their later years as lazy lumps on a log.

You say you ramped up easily but you didn't.
Instead of starting out with a 20 min walk at an easy pace on the treadmill, you put that treadmill on it's highest elevation and walked at a pace of 3.3 mph. Of course you're sore.

Fish oil and gentle stretching. Ride your bike.

Oh, and get yourself on a Pilates program to strengthen your core.

Spend more time on the treadmill, but ease into it. Start out with 20 minutes with no elevation, build from there. You think that you can do that outside, but a treadmill keeps you moving where on the street you stop for all sorts of things. If you walk outside, take directed walks with your pup where you keep speed up. He'll like it. Really.

Get on the bike and spin.

Keep moving.

Unless you have severe pain with movement, I wouldn't say you need a doctor. But, I would say you do need a personal trainer with a physical therapy background to teach you how to strengthen what you need to and the right way to work yourself into exercising again.

Congratulations on the good heart news!

Good luck.

[Ti Designs]

It must be September...

Sandy, you've done to yourself exactly what I warn my riders about when they get into weight training for cycling. The weight training doesn't start until October, but getting them into the gym in September gives me more time to work on proper techniques (there's a fair amount of danger involved with weight training, I've had enough injured riders for one year...) The rule is simple, start way lower than you think you have to. If there's no discomfort three days later you're allowed a weight or rep increase. If you can't walk up stairs two steps at a time, you've started way too heavy.

Think of any workout as having both results and as instruction to the body. If you do nothing the results are nothing, but the instruction to the body is "you don't need very much", so the muscles grow weak, as do the attachment points and connective tissue. A good workout will cause a little damage, but the instruction to the body is "we need more strength", so the body repairs the damage and the muscle fibers get stronger as does the connective tissue. The workout for attachment points is all about reps or cycles - low intensity and lots of them, which is basicly what base mileage is all about. Starting in too hard is going to cause damage to the muscles which is felt as pain in movement, or worse torn attachcment points.

What you don't understand is what you did. Walking the dog means walking on mostly flat ground, maybe getting pulled along by a leash (I was married once, I know what that's like). Walking on a treadmill is just like that until you start playing with the incline. That 15 you speak of is probably 15%. The body going up hills switches the muscles used, the glutes come into the action to fight gravity, the hip flexors have to lift the foot higher than if you were on flat ground. You may not see the weighted resistance at first glance because it's your own body weight. You've overdone it on your return, and what you're complaining about is exactly what I would expect.

The extent of the damage is something a PT would be needed. Where within the range of motion the pain kicks in I can't see over the internet. I'm going to make a bold assumption and say it's pretty hard to do serious damage at low speed on a treadmill, and suggest that you get on the trainer, put it in a small gear and spin for 15 minutes. If the soreness from movement mostly goes away but returns 10 minutes after you get off the bike it's a good sign.

[fiamme red]

I have done almost no cycling this year.Didn't you just buy a new custom Serotta? A new bike should be a motivation to ride. :banana:

[Viper]

Sandy,

Get a professional massage for the legs. Your heart is fine, great news.

Listen to 80's music, drink a Pepsi, then go ride like Winona Ryder, like you stole something:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xezmxnScGS4



Regards,
Viper

[Ahneida Ride]

Sandy

The secret is to enjoy yourself. Just go out and ride.

It could be one mile or 10. Set no goals. Just have fun.

Now go out and have some fun. Wish I could ride with ya. ;)

[Climb01742]

6 fish oil caplets a day. 3 in the AM, 3 in the PM. and what everyone says above.

[93legendti]

I have done almost no cycling this year. The only exercise that I have done is walking my dog every day at least twice a day on average and a little yard work. The walks are slow. Because of atypical (to heart disease) chest discomfort and very poor family heart history including two siblings with major heart problems, I took a thalium stress test on August 28. As I had been doing no real exercise, and I wanted to have a little aerobic capacity for the stress test, I did the treadmill 5-6 times for 45 minutes the two weeks prior to the test. I warmed up very slowly, never exceeded 3.3 mph, but did work at the highest elevation (slowly reaching that point) of 15, whatever that is. I found the treadmill exercise not too difficult.

The great news- I did very well on the test and the cardiologist said "my heart is perfect", after receiving the data from the tests. That was great news since I am 67 and have such a poor family history of heart disease.

The problem is that I am having genuine problems with my leg muscles after doing the stress test and the 5-6 days on the treadmill. I want to start riding again, but am having leg discomfort/pain/minor cramping when I walk the dog. It hurts to bend over and pick up anything and even bothers me when I am trying to sleep. I find that when I am getting up from the floor or off the sofa, I am using my arms more and legs less than previously.

Most of the discomfort/minor pain is in the upper thigh and groin area (in that order) of both legs, but more in the left. I guess I strained my legs on the treadmill. It has been two weeks almost since the stress test and I don't seem to be getting much better.

Any suggestions please? Do you think that it would be ok to try to ride my trainer easily? Should I see a sports medicine doctor?

Thanks for any suggestions!!!


Sandy
You're healthy, so a light ride will probably make your legs feel better. Just take it easy.

[zap]

So Sandy, everyone is in agreement.

Lets go.

:bike:

[Viper]

Sandy,

Your legs are in shock. They ache two weeks after a treadmill test...

Sandy = A+ for taking care of his dog.
Sandy = D- for taking care of himself.
Sandy = Get back on the bike. It's not about the bike, it's about the saddle. Sit down on the seat, get back in the saddle and get back on the bike. Stop messing with your Facebook and Myspace pages, pump up the tires and just ride. Stop seeing Doctors, go see your M3 BMW, wash it, wash your bike and go see the sights around town on two wheels. Enough with the Doctors (although it's always a good idea for a Dentist checkup too) spend some time with Dr. Campagnolo and Generalleutnant BMW. Watch Star Wars IV or V. :)


-Viper

[Fixed]

I agree with every post so far great advise from everyone
get better cheers
butch

[Sandy]

Gentle cycling is easier than walking and I don't see how it could hurt--but strongly recommend a second opinion from a medical background (preferably not a pill-pusher or scalpel brandisher).

Ride easy--should make it better or worse.

CONGRATS on the heart check up! You are what you eat and our SAD (standard american diet) is turning folks into horrible messes. 80% of all the maladies are diet/lifestyle caused according to a doc fellow I know.

Walking my dog is undoubtedly easier than gentle cycling. He does not normally pull on the leash but makes moves toward odors and what he sees, so my walks are not normally all smooth. He is a handfull when he sees deer and wants very badly to get to them. He is already used to smaller critters and does not get too excited by them unless he is off leash in the yard.

I will spin easily in a low gear on my trainer to see how it goes. You are correct about what you eat. I eat very little fat and have not had desserts for over 25 years- no ice cream, cake, candy,.....My problem is that I eat too much and too much carbos sometimes. I am now on a diet again.

Thanks for your post.


:) Slowly Softly Spinning Serotta Sandy :)

[Sandy]

Sandy, I've spent a lot of time in physical therapy with old people. The biggest problem they have is getting past the thought that physical effort is going to cause some physical discomfort. First they just push into it, then it aches so they go as far as to avoid anything that makes the sore muscles cause them any pain and it's just a nasty spiral into laying on the couch and slipping into their later years as lazy lumps on a log.

You say you ramped up easily but you didn't.
Instead of starting out with a 20 min walk at an easy pace on the treadmill, you put that treadmill on it's highest elevation and walked at a pace of 3.3 mph. Of course you're sore.

Fish oil and gentle stretching. Ride your bike.

Oh, and get yourself on a Pilates program to strengthen your core.

Spend more time on the treadmill, but ease into it. Start out with 20 minutes with no elevation, build from there. You think that you can do that outside, but a treadmill keeps you moving where on the street you stop for all sorts of things. If you walk outside, take directed walks with your pup where you keep speed up. He'll like it. Really.

Get on the bike and spin.

Keep moving.

Unless you have severe pain with movement, I wouldn't say you need a doctor. But, I would say you do need a personal trainer with a physical therapy background to teach you how to strengthen what you need to and the right way to work yourself into exercising again.

Congratulations on the good heart news!

Good luck.


Excellent advice. When I did the 5-6 treadmill exercises, I started at about 1.2 miles per hour and 0 elevation and then for 15 minutes approximately I slowly raised the speed and the elevation to 15 elevation and around 3 mph. Each time I increased the effort by makeing the speed at 15 a little higher so that I would get my heart rate to a higher max than the previous time. I guess that I simply did more thatn I should at my age and much more importnatly at my level of conditioning.

Wiil eat some salmon tonight and start to take some fish oil. Will start some easy exercise too.

:banana: Salmon Salad Sandwich Simple Serotta Sandy :banana:




Thanks!!

[FMS_rider]

I am not a physician, but based on much personal experience (several normal lifetimes worth of overuse and traumatic injuries from decades of addiction to rock climbing), I agree that all of the information in the preceding posts is excellent. However I would like to add one thing: icing can have a magical effect on persistent muscle/tendon pain of the sort you describe. I learned that the stupid way from a physical therapist friend who was one of my climbing partners: I suffered unnecessarily for a very long time from a number of problems because I didn't listen (I continued to believe my mother's advice: cold immediately after an injury to prevent swelling, then heat after that). The problem with the "old wives tale" advice I got from my mother is apparently the inflammatory component associated with persistent soft-tissue pain that is suppressed by cold and exacerbated, if anything, by heat. I assume there are certain problems for which a physical therapist would advise heat (certain forms of arthritis perhaps?), but I have never heard anything but icing, icing, icing.

In addition to my friend, I have seen several other physical therapists for many different muscle and other soft tissue problems and the advice has always been the same: 10-15 mins of ice packs 2-3 times per day, and they all have agreed that nothing is better than bags of frozen peas or corn. I apply them directly to my skin over painful areas (after several days of that they don't feel nearly as cold). There are apparently some people whose skin cannot tolerate direct application so you could slowly work up to the 10-15 mins if you are concerned about that.

The only climbing-induced persistent muscle pain I have had that ice could not help was from my iliopsoas, which is so deep within the upper thigh/groin/pelvic region that you cannot effectively cool it. For that my physical therapist friend taught me some stretching exercises that cleared it up within a couple of weeks. The other physical therapists I have seen for other problems always advised specific stretching exercises in addition to icing.

From what you describe it sounds like your pain is coming from the upper part of your quadriceps, which should be readily relieved by icing, but perhaps also from my old friend the iliopsoas, for which you can find appropriate stretching exercises on the internet. However, if the pain continues to hamper your cycling(!!!) I would not hesitate to see a physical therapist. My family doc has almost always given me an immediate PT referral based on a phone conversation, except in a few cases where he thought I might have a more serious injury that might need attention from a physician (himself or a specialist), although in all of those cases (nerve-root pain, and knee and shoulder injuries) I ended up with a physical therapist and the same old routine: lots of icing and specific stretching exercises.

The physical therapists I have seen also have recommended anti-inflammatory agents, but I am not going to comment on that because the over-the-counter drug that has been highly effective for me can have life-threatening effects on certain people, especially in combination with other drugs. I have had a nerve/root impingement in my neck for several years that flares up causing pain and numbness if I stop taking that drug for several days. (I also have to sit with proper posture and do regular stretching exercises to keep it from recurring, and ice when I have lapses and it rears its ugly head again.)

If you take sufficient fish oil to have a substantial anti-inflammatory action MAKE SURE THAT IT IS PHARMACEUTICAL GRADE (if it has an odor, it’s not), and the proper kind (predominantly omega-3). It has to be pharmaceutical grade from a reputable source because your body can accumulate a dangerous amount of mercury and other toxins if it is not properly purified (you will have the same problem if you get an equivalent amount of omega-3s from eating certain species of fish, see http://www.healthcastle.com/salmon-safe-eat-mercury.shtml). Any druggist should be able to give you good advice on what to buy (advice and products from health food stores are suspect in my opinion).

As usual I have gotten carried away with the verbiage, but maybe you can extract a couple of useful tidbits.

Congratulations once again on the healthy cardiologist’s report, and PLEASE KEEP US ALL UP TO DATE ON YOUR PROGRESS!

Lew

[Sandy]

It must be September...

Sandy, you've done to yourself exactly what I warn my riders about when they get into weight training for cycling. The weight training doesn't start until October, but getting them into the gym in September gives me more time to work on proper techniques (there's a fair amount of danger involved with weight training, I've had enough injured riders for one year...) The rule is simple, start way lower than you think you have to. If there's no discomfort three days later you're allowed a weight or rep increase. If you can't walk up stairs two steps at a time, you've started way too heavy.

Think of any workout as having both results and as instruction to the body. If you do nothing the results are nothing, but the instruction to the body is "you don't need very much", so the muscles grow weak, as do the attachment points and connective tissue. A good workout will cause a little damage, but the instruction to the body is "we need more strength", so the body repairs the damage and the muscle fibers get stronger as does the connective tissue. The workout for attachment points is all about reps or cycles - low intensity and lots of them, which is basicly what base mileage is all about. Starting in too hard is going to cause damage to the muscles which is felt as pain in movement, or worse torn attachcment points.

What you don't understand is what you did. Walking the dog means walking on mostly flat ground, maybe getting pulled along by a leash (I was married once, I know what that's like). Walking on a treadmill is just like that until you start playing with the incline. That 15 you speak of is probably 15%. The body going up hills switches the muscles used, the glutes come into the action to fight gravity, the hip flexors have to lift the foot higher than if you were on flat ground. You may not see the weighted resistance at first glance because it's your own body weight. You've overdone it on your return, and what you're complaining about is exactly what I would expect.

The extent of the damage is something a PT would be needed. Where within the range of motion the pain kicks in I can't see over the internet. I'm going to make a bold assumption and say it's pretty hard to do serious damage at low speed on a treadmill, and suggest that you get on the trainer, put it in a small gear and spin for 15 minutes. If the soreness from movement mostly goes away but returns 10 minutes after you get off the bike it's a good sign.


I must say that you seem to make perfect sense in your analysis in what happened. Just surprising to me that two weeks later I am still having trouble with it. I would have thought that it would have been much better by now. I guess that is a function of the fact that I simply stopped serious exercise (cycling) for too long and started doing too much on the treadmill. My age certainly is a factor. Guess my judgement wasn't too good. I was trying to get into some minimal shape for the stress test.

I am going to do a lot of cycling on the trainer in the colder months. In fact, I think the trainer is the best place for me to start back anyway.

Thanks for all your help and advice you have given me on many occasions. Really like your approach to training and learning how to ride a bike well.


Sandy

[Sandy]

Didn't you just buy a new custom Serotta? A new bike should be a motivation to ride. :banana:

I have a new all steel CDA- single color, Candy Apple Red- 1 "S" on ht-no other decals. Total miles 300+ since January. I think the bike is wonderful. I just have not had the energy/impetus to ride it. But I will.


Sandy

[WadePatton]

My cycling easier than walking statement was referring to the impact on the joints of walking.

And a dog that pulls does not understand who the pack leader is. Or the pack leader isn't leading properly. Wade pretending to be Cesar Milan.

[Sandy]

My cycling easier than walking statement was referring to the impact on the joints of walking.

And a dog that pulls does not understand who the pack leader is. Or the pack leader isn't leading properly. Wade pretending to be Cesar Milan.


I do not get Cesar Milan on TV. I have seen very little of him. From what I see and what I understand he is superb in getting dogs to behave. I was at a Pit 101 seminar once and a lady who has two pits and believes training dogs via positive reinforcement does not like him at all. My perception, and I admit I know very little about him, is that he and his methods are very effective, but probably not entirely for me. There were two individuals at our local shelter who were showing his type of training (I was not there) and two dogs bit the demonstrator.

Pits, believe it or not, are often very sensitive dogs. Mine certainly is. I have tended to take a balanced approach with training, thus far- positive reinforcement using clicker training. Being harsh and overbearing on my dog will produce results (not saying that Cesar Milan is allabout that) but at what expense in the dog/"owner" relationship.

When I first got my dog he was totally untrained and would pull and pull on the leash, especially if he saw little critters he wanted to get to. I have worked with him some, but could do more. Have taken him to 3 1 hour classes.

In actualy he is very well behaved on the leash (harness) and seldom pulls at all. He is very well received by my neighbors because he listens well overall and I most often make him move over, sit, and wait until people, especially kids, walk by. He knows sit, down, wait, stay (sort of), no dig, off, uh uh, and release. Is he perfect? No, but overall, pretty good. He stops, sits, and waits at all corners on command, going into and out of the house, and when he is fed. He is a terrier and a dog and does like to sniff so I let him do that on walks so walks are not the natural smooth walks people take. He does not pull to get to little critters (in the yard off leash he will take off after them with the abilities of a superb athlete). He does pull and get really excited when he sees deer that are close, but he is improving very much in that area too.

Not too worried about me as a pack leader. Want to make my wife and brther-in-law more as they do not spend much time with him like I do.


Sandy

[fiamme red]

In fact, I think the trainer is the best place for me to start back anyway.I think you should get outside on the bike as soon as possible. Take an easy spin around the neighborhood. The trainer is a poor substitute for real riding.

The weather is great now, enjoy it while you can.

[WadePatton]

On dogs and Cesar.

The show is great, but you have to see five or six to get a better idea (more situations) of what he's doing. He's all about US learning to communicate with the animals in a way that THEY understand. That is we have to learn how dogs communicate and employ as much of that as we can. Very much of his method is non-verbal. It is body language and touch and state-of-mind (the dog's and yours) primarily--with consistency. Doggie school I went to was pretty much all verbal with treats-and it works but not with the natural ease of The Dog Whisperer. We had six or eight two-hour classes, once weekly with homework. Dogs can learn anything with enough motivation and repetition. Cesar's way is most natural and he usually has a dog behaving within a few minutes...yeah a few freaking minutes. Sure he gets bit, but dogs bite each other and he's getting on their level.

He has a book too and it's a good read. I forget how much it gets into training--and don't have it handy. The network carrying his show does marathons and plays 'em back to back for hours--have somebuddy record 'em for you.

I really don't understand how a dog person could find fault in his method. He keeps around 30 dogs at his compound all the time (some are being boarded and the rest living there), many of them are pits-some ex fighters. They all run free inside the fence and are fed together--AS a pack.

I could ramble on about his method, but don't want to bore our audience. Even if one doesn't adopt his methodology, s/he can learn a lot from Cesar Milan.