LBS owners...

[Dave]

Can anyone substantiate the rumor that Campagnolo has issued new pricing policies that insist on the sale of their products at MSRP, or risk losing their dealer's rights? If so, Campy prices at all online dealers would go way up, compared to what they are now.

All that will do is force online buyers to go directly to Euro sources.

[soulspinner]

Spoke with Licktons who said that because the Supreme court ruled in instances that include bike groups, this is true. Unfortunately, Europe doesnt have to, therefore rendering US companies helpless. Its being challenged, but may be some time until the new litigation is finished. Has nothing to do with Campagnolo specifically, same goes for Shimanos new Dura ace...

[Dave]

Spoke with Licktons who said that because the Supreme court ruled in instances that include bike groups, this is true. Unfortunately, Europe doesnt have to, therefore rendering US companies helpless. Its being challenged, but may be some time until the new litigation is finished. Has nothing to do with Campagnolo specifically, same goes for Shimanos new Dura ace...

I would then assume this applies to all 2009 products from all foreign sources then? That would mean SRAM, Shimano and Campy parts will go sky high, unless attached to a prebuilt bike perhaps? I got the rumor as a Campy policy, not a matter of US law.

That's how some companies manage to sell Mavic rims at a discount. Quite often, a built wheel price was placed well below the sum of the parts, hiding discounts, where they could not be identified.

[Chief]

My LBS says that he was notified of same.

[Pete Serotta]

Additionally, it depends on where the supplier gets their components from (ie thru US importer or via an outside US source.). If an outside US source, it will be harder for the importer to enforce. :confused: :confused: :confused:

In theory the service and support of Campy should get better for the margins are higher and they can support the service side :)

[Ti Designs]

Once again, I'm baffled by the relative value of things. Somehow bike parts SHOULD be discounted while other things never are. I've needed a crown on one of my teeth for more than a year now, I have yet to find a discount dentist.

[David Kirk]

I've needed a crown on one of my teeth for more than a year now, I have yet to find a discount dentist.

Come on over. I'll do it for a 6 pack and a bean burrito.

dave

[Pete Serotta]

:beer:

Once again, I'm baffled by the relative value of things. Somehow bike parts SHOULD be discounted while other things never are. I've needed a crown on one of my teeth for more than a year now, I have yet to find a discount dentist.

[SoCalSteve]

Once again, I'm baffled by the relative value of things. Somehow bike parts SHOULD be discounted while other things never are. I've needed a crown on one of my teeth for more than a year now, I have yet to find a discount dentist.

One is an item that is not rare and can be purchased anywhere in the world while the other is a service performed by a person with many years of education and experience...

Do you now see the difference? I hope you are no longer baffled.

Just sayin' (apples and oranges) and anything that is NOT rare can and should be available to purchase at a discount..Services on the other hand can bring great $$$ as you are paying for education, wisdom, etc.

[Dave]

Once again, I'm baffled by the relative value of things. Somehow bike parts SHOULD be discounted while other things never are. I've needed a crown on one of my teeth for more than a year now, I have yet to find a discount dentist.

Having dental insurance, I can get the lowest price at a dentist preferred by my plan, but I started using a dentist with easy access and we like their service, so actually choose to pay more to use them. I've had several crowns in the last five years and I pay about $600 of the $1200 fee. I could get one for $200 less at another dentist. If you shop around, you may actually find lower prices if you tell them it's out of pocket.

I did that with auto body repairs. My wife's car got got hit by someone and the repairs were to be paid by the other driver's insurance. I didn't care what was charged for that repair, since the insurance company had to pay for it. Her car also had damage to the opposite rear door, so I got quotes on that repair to be done at the same time, but out of my pocket. Only one of four companies was smart enough to drop the out of pocket repair price by $400 in order to get the larger project.

[dvs cycles]

Once again, I'm baffled by the relative value of things. Somehow bike parts SHOULD be discounted while other things never are. I've needed a crown on one of my teeth for more than a year now, I have yet to find a discount dentist.
When I needed a doctor for my vascetomy I did not look for the lowest bidder nor with my hemorroids surgery. :beer:
Best doctor regardless of price.

[Blue Jays]

/\/\ TMI ALERT! :D

[Ken Robb]

Only one of four companies was smart enough to drop the out of pocket repair price by $400 in order to get the larger project.[/QUOTE]

Gee there was only one willing to commit insurance fraud? What a tragedy.

[Ken Robb]

Once again, I'm baffled by the relative value of things. Somehow bike parts SHOULD be discounted while other things never are. I've needed a crown on one of my teeth for more than a year now, I have yet to find a discount dentist.

Quite a few folks near the border go to Mexico for dental/medical care that they can't afford in the USA. I'm just reporting with no axe to grind.

[palincss]

Only one of four companies was smart enough to drop the out of pocket repair price by $400 in order to get the larger project.

Gee there was only one willing to commit insurance fraud? What a tragedy.[/QUOTE]

Why would that be insurance fraud? He was getting the insurance-covered repairs plus some extra work, and was paying for the extra work out of pocket. The shop discounted the extra work. How is that fraud?

[soulspinner]

Come on over. I'll do it for a 6 pack and a bean burrito.

dave

Course that means brass fillings :p

[Dave]

Only one of four companies was smart enough to drop the out of pocket repair price by $400 in order to get the larger project.

Gee there was only one willing to commit insurance fraud? What a tragedy.[/QUOTE]

There is no insurance fraud here. The collision repair estimate at the shop I chose was no higher than any of the other three body shops. The other driver's insurance paid for it and agreed that I could use any shop I wanted. The insurance company had no disagreement with the any of the four estimates, since all were very close in price.

The repair of the out of pocket damages that occurred in an entirely separate event, to the other side of the car, was billed directly to me, not the insurance company. They all knew they would be doing both repairs at the same time. Three of the shops wanted $1400 for the out of pocket repair and the fourth said they could do it for $1000. I thought that even the $1000 price was extremely high for the amount of damage to be repaired. Why would I choose to pay more for the same repair?

Where is the fraud here? Each shop knew which repairs I was paying for and I told each one not to go overboard on that repair or they would not get the job. The insurance company was not billed for part of my OOP repair, as you have presumed. Their own adjuster estimated the repair cost before I took it to any shop and all shops had a price that was reasonable to the insurance company.

[keno]

Dental schools might be the ticket for lower cost work (and later misery if not lucky). Incidentally, one of my training partners is an endodontist (root canals). He tells me that a significant percentage of the work that he gets is redos of improperly done root canals performed by general practice dentists.

keno

[djg]

Spoke with Licktons who said that because the Supreme court ruled in instances that include bike groups, this is true. Unfortunately, Europe doesnt have to, therefore rendering US companies helpless. Its being challenged, but may be some time until the new litigation is finished. Has nothing to do with Campagnolo specifically, same goes for Shimanos new Dura ace...

It'll be interesting to see how such practices might hold up. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that all of this sort of thing is ok, just because there's a decision that says -- roughly (consult your own help for what this might or might not mean to you) -- that such resale price maintenance (vertical price restraint) is no longer to be considered a per se violation of the federal antitrust laws, but instead is to be evaluated on a rule-of-reason basis (facts, details, analysis of relative benefits and harms, juggling). There could be state law grounds for civil actions still, and the details of the federal stuff are likely to get hashed out over time.

I'm not sure what the "instances that include bike groups" means, exactly, even if the implications of the Leegin case look to be fairly broad.

[djg]

Once again, I'm baffled by the relative value of things. Somehow bike parts SHOULD be discounted while other things never are. I've needed a crown on one of my teeth for more than a year now, I have yet to find a discount dentist.

Other things are never discounted? Prices for dental services and products can vary quite a bit in my experience. You might shop around more vigorously. Or not, depending on your wallet and your opinion of your dentist. Try calling a few different towns? Get on the Internet? A dental school? I'm not saying that you'll find a price you like, just that you might find significant variation.

Car prices for most cars vary, dealer to dealer, deal to deal. Clothing prices vary. Electronics. Wine. All sorts of things. Some folks look for bargains. Some look harder than others. Some have unreasonable expectations. My guess would be that folks who wander into an LBS looking for a deal that's just not feasible for the LBS, have an expectation that's based on an experience of discounts elsewhere in retail markets for stuff, even if they're clueless about the particular bike widgets they're looking at. Which is not to say that everyone looking for a bargain is clueless.

[Ligero]

Shimano has had the same msrp policy for years.

The reason you can find large price differences between prices on dental work is because of the large amount of mark up on it. I originally went to school to be a dental lab tech and did crown and bridge work for a couple of years so I know what the actual prices are. There is anywhere from 600 to 1000% mark up on dental work as apposed to bike parts which are 25 to 100% on some parts. So if the doctor wants he can knock off quite a bit of money and still be making money.

[Volant]

It's all about mark-up, supply, demand, and protecting interests. It always blows my mind that an item that, say, costs $250 to make, hits the ultimate customer at a price of $1,000 (and that's with just a traditional mfgr to retailer to consumer channel). Stick another 'distributor' in there and you can see why an MSRP starts looking rediculous. But, hey, buy it if you want it and think the price is fair or don't. Things that are way over-priced to begin with don't sell and get discounted; even doing more harm than if it was priced right to begin with. (By harm, I mean not gaining a major footing in the market; generating enough dollars to support and grow the line; getting a reputation that was not intended, etc.)

[Smiley]

It's all about mark-up, supply, demand, and protecting interests. It always blows my mind that an item that, say, costs $250 to make, hits the ultimate customer at a price of $1,000 (and that's with just a traditional mfgr to retailer to consumer channel). Stick another 'distributor' in there and you can see why an MSRP starts looking rediculous. But, hey, buy it if you want it and think the price is fair or don't. Things that are way over-priced to begin with don't sell and get discounted; even doing more harm than if it was priced right to begin with. (By harm, I mean not gaining a major footing in the market; generating enough dollars to support and grow the line; getting a reputation that was not intended, etc.)
Sony Beta versus VHS as a good example maybe

[LegendRider]

Once again, I'm baffled by the relative value of things. Somehow bike parts SHOULD be discounted while other things never are. I've needed a crown on one of my teeth for more than a year now, I have yet to find a discount dentist.

I don't think bike parts SHOULD be discounted. However, it seems like retailers should be allowed to sell them for whatever price they want to.

A good discussion from a well-respected economist:
http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2007/03/resale-price-maintenance.html

[deechee]

isn't this what oakley has been doing for years? personally I think this gives the LBS a fighting chance against internet resellers. When my LBS's cost price is higher the probikekit's consumer price, what are they supposed to do?

[rwsaunders]

Come on over. I'll do it for a 6 pack and a bean burrito.

dave

You only work in steel, Dave. He doesn't want rust stains. :cool:

[Ken Robb]

Gee there was only one willing to commit insurance fraud? What a tragedy.

There is no insurance fraud here. The collision repair estimate at the shop I chose was no higher than any of the other three body shops. The other driver's insurance paid for it and agreed that I could use any shop I wanted. The insurance company had no disagreement with the any of the four estimates, since all were very close in price.

The repair of the out of pocket damages that occurred in an entirely separate event, to the other side of the car, was billed directly to me, not the insurance company. They all knew they would be doing both repairs at the same time. Three of the shops wanted $1400 for the out of pocket repair and the fourth said they could do it for $1000. I thought that even the $1000 price was extremely high for the amount of damage to be repaired. Why would I choose to pay more for the same repair?

Where is the fraud here? Each shop knew which repairs I was paying for and I told each one not to go overboard on that repair or they would not get the job. The insurance company was not billed for part of my OOP repair, as you have presumed. Their own adjuster estimated the repair cost before I took it to any shop and all shops had a price that was reasonable to the insurance company.[/QUOTE]

Sorry--I read the posting to mean that you and the shop had agreed to soak the insurance company extra so the shop could charge you less for the out-of-pocket work. I have pals in the repair business and they get these proposals all the time so I probably interpretted it differently than other readers. :)

[torquer]

In theory the service and support of Campy should get better for the margins are higher and they can support the service side :)
When I first read this, I thought "How does the price the retailer charges effect Campy's margins?"

Then I realized that you were referring to the dealer's margin. But is this theory supported by any evidence? In my own experience (granted not with Campy products any time recently), shops willing to work with me on price also tend to be helpfull with support, while snooty no haggling shops don't need to devote much effort to service, since all the money is made out front.