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Kirk007
09-05-2008, 06:15 PM
This came to me by e-mail. It is long. It is political. Ignore it if you do not care. I cannot vouch for its veracity but it seems legit. I've googled the author and its reported in a newspapers as truthfully authored. See www.daily-journal.com/archives/dj/display.php?id=426807. The author is quoted in the Detroit Free Press and NYT among other outlets.

Clearly the author is not friends with Palin, but she seems to be giving her honest perspective. Take from it what you will, or not. Its offered here as information on a candidate that we do not know much about, and which contradicts the portrait offered of her so far in many respects. (and yes feel free to accurately accuse me of having a bias but in my view it is nevdrtheless relevant information and relevant information is a good thing; the weight you give it is up to you).



A note to all by Anne **********

Dear friends,

So many people have asked me about what I know about Sarah Palin in the
last 2 days that I decided to write something up . . .

Basically, Sarah Palin and Hillary Clinton have only 2 things in
common: their gender and their good looks. :)

You have my permission to forward this to your friends/email contacts
with my name and email address attached, but please do not post it on
any websites, as there are too many kooks out there . . .


ABOUT SARAH PALIN

I am a resident of Wasilla, Alaska. I have known Sarah since 1992.
Everyone here knows Sarah, so it is nothing special to say we are on a
first-name basis. Our children have attended the same schools. Her
father was my child's favorite substitute teacher. I also am on a
first name basis with her parents and mother-in-law. I attended more
City Council meetings during her administration than about 99% of the
residents of the city.

She is enormously popular; in every way she’s like the most popular
girl in middle school. Even men who think she is a poor choice and
won't vote for her can't quit smiling when talking about her because
she is a "babe".

It is astonishing and almost scary how well she can keep a secret. She
kept her most recent pregnancy a secret from her children and parents
for seven months.

She is "pro-life". She recently gave birth to a Down's syndrome baby.
There is no cover-up involved, here; Trig is her baby.

She is energetic and hardworking. She regularly worked out at the gym.

She is savvy. She doesn't take positions; she just "puts things out
there" and if they prove to be popular, then she takes credit.

Her husband works a union job on the North Slope for BP and is a
champion snowmobile racer. Todd Palin’s kind of job is highly
sought-after because of the schedule and high pay. He arranges his
work schedule so he can fish for salmon in Bristol Bay for a month or
so in summer, but by no stretch of the imagination is fishing their
major source of income. Nor has her life-style ever been anything
like that of native Alaskans.

Sarah and her whole family are avid hunters.

She's smart.

Her experience is as mayor of a city with a population of about 5,000
(at the time), and less than 2 years as governor of a state with about
670,000 residents.

During her mayoral administration most of the actual work of running
this small city was turned over to an administrator. She had been
pushed to hire this administrator by party power-brokers after she had
gotten herself into some trouble over precipitous firings which had
given rise to a recall campaign.

Sarah campaigned in Wasilla as a “fiscal conservative”. During her 6
years as Mayor, she increased general government expenditures by over
33%. During those same 6 years the amount of taxes collected by the
City increased by 38%. This was during a period of low inflation
(1996-2002). She reduced progressive property taxes and increased a
regressive sales tax which taxed even food. The tax cuts that she
promoted benefited large corporate property owners way more than they
benefited residents.

The huge increases in tax revenues during her mayoral administration
weren’t enough to fund everything on her wish list though, borrowed
money was needed, too. She inherited a city with zero debt, but left it
with indebtedness of over $22 million. What did Mayor Palin encourage
the voters to borrow money for? Was it the infrastructure that she said
she supported? The sewage treatment plant that the city lacked? or a
new library? No. $1m for a park. $15m-plus for construction of a
multi-use sports complex which she rushed through to build on a piece
of property that the City didn’t even have clear title to, that was
still in litigation 7 yrs later--to the delight of the lawyers
involved! The sports complex itself is a nice addition to the
community but a huge money pit, not the profit-generator she claimed it
would be. She also supported bonds for $5.5m for road projects that
could have been done in 5-7 yrs without any borrowing.

While Mayor, City Hall was extensively remodeled and her office
redecorated more than once.

These are small numbers, but Wasilla is a very small city.

As an oil producer, the high price of oil has created a budget surplus
in Alaska. Rather than invest this surplus in technology that will
make us energy independent and increase efficiency, as Governor she
proposed distribution of this surplus to every individual in the state.

In this time of record state revenues and budget surpluses, she
recommended that the state borrow/bond for road projects, even while
she proposed distribution of surplus state revenues: spend today's
surplus, borrow for needs.

She’s not very tolerant of divergent opinions or open to outside ideas
or compromise. As Mayor, she fought ideas that weren’t generated by
her or her staff. Ideas weren’t evaluated on their merits, but on the
basis of who proposed them.

While Sarah was Mayor of Wasilla she tried to fire our highly respected
City Librarian because the Librarian refused to consider removing from
the library some books that Sarah wanted removed. City residents
rallied to the defense of the City Librarian and against Palin's
attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew
her termination letter. People who fought her attempt to oust the
Librarian are on her enemies list to this day.

Sarah complained about the “old boy’s club” when she first ran for
Mayor, so what did she bring Wasilla? A new set of "old boys". Palin
fired most of the experienced staff she inherited. At the City and as
Governor she hired or elevated new, inexperienced, obscure people,
creating a staff totally dependent on her for their jobs and eternally
grateful and fiercely loyal--loyal to the point of abusing their power
to further her personal agenda, as she has acknowledged happened in the
case of pressuring the State’s top cop (see below).

As Mayor, Sarah fired Wasilla’s Police Chief because he “intimidated”
her, she told the press. As Governor, her recent firing of Alaska's top
cop has the ring of familiarity about it. He served at her pleasure
and she had every legal right to fire him, but it's pretty clear that
an important factor in her decision to fire him was because he wouldn't
fire her sister's ex-husband, a State Trooper. Under investigation
for abuse of power, she has had to admit that more than 2 dozen
contacts were made between her staff and family to the person that she
later fired, pressuring him to fire her ex-brother-in-law. She tried to
replace the man she fired with a man who she knew had been reprimanded
for sexual harassment; when this caused a public furor, she withdrew
her support.

She has bitten the hand of every person who extended theirs to her in
help. The City Council person who personally escorted her around town
introducing her to voters when she first ran for Wasilla City Council
became one of her first targets when she was later elected Mayor. She
abruptly fired her loyal City Administrator; even people who didn’t
like the guy were stunned by this ruthlessness.

Fear of retribution has kept all of these people from saying anything
publicly about her.

When then-Governor Murkowski was handing out political plums, Sarah got
the best, Chair of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission: one
of the few jobs not in Juneau and one of the best paid. She had no
background in oil & gas issues. Within months of scoring this great
job which paid $122,400/yr, she was complaining in the press about the
high salary. I was told that she hated that job: the commute, the
structured hours, the work. Sarah became aware that a member of this
Commission (who was also the State Chair of the Republican Party)
engaged in unethical behavior on the job. In a gutsy move which some
undoubtedly cautioned her could be political suicide, Sarah solved all
her problems in one fell swoop: got out of the job she hated and
garnered gobs of media attention as the patron saint of ethics and as a
gutsy fighter against the “old boys’ club” when she dramatically quit,
exposing this man’s ethics violations (for which he was fined).

As Mayor, she had her hand stuck out as far as anyone for pork from
Senator Ted Stevens. Lately, she has castigated his pork-barrel
politics and publicly humiliated him. She only opposed the “bridge to
nowhere” after it became clear that it would be unwise not to.

As Governor, she gave the Legislature no direction and budget
guidelines, then made a big grandstand display of line-item vetoing
projects, calling them pork. Public outcry and further legislative
action restored most of these projects--which had been vetoed simply
because she was not aware of their importance--but with the unobservant
she had gained a reputation as “anti-pork”.

She is solidly Republican: no political maverick. The State party
leaders hate her because she has bit them in the back and humiliated
them. Other members of the party object to her self-description as a
fiscal conservative.

Around Wasilla there are people who went to high school with Sarah.
They call her “Sarah Barracuda” because of her unbridled ambition and
predatory ruthlessness. Before she became so powerful, very ugly
stories circulated around town about shenanigans she pulled to be made
point guard on the high school basketball team. When Sarah's
mother-in-law, a highly respected member of the community and
experienced manager, ran for Mayor, Sarah refused to endorse her.

As Governor, she stepped outside of the box and put together of package
of legislation known as “AGIA” that forced the oil companies to march
to the beat of her drum.

Like most Alaskans, she favors drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife
Refuge. She has questioned if the loss of sea ice is linked to
global warming. She campaigned “as a private citizen” against a state
initiaitive that would have either a) protected salmon streams from
pollution from mines, or b) tied up in the courts all mining in the
state (depending on who you listen to). She has pushed the State’s
lawsuit against the Dept. of the Interior’s decision to list polar
bears as threatened species.

McCain is the oldest person to ever run for President; Sarah will be a
heartbeat away from being President.

There has to be literally millions of Americans who are more
knowledgeable and experienced than she.

However, there’s a lot of people who have underestimated her and are
regretting it.


CLAIM VS FACT
•“Hockey mom”: true for a few years
•“PTA mom”: true years ago when her first-born was in elementary
school, not since
•“NRA supporter”: absolutely true
•social conservative: mixed. Opposes gay marriage, BUT vetoed a bill
that would have denied benefits to employees in same-sex relationships
(said she did this because it was unconsitutional).
•pro-creationism: mixed. Supports it, BUT did nothing as Governor to
promote it.
•“Pro-life”: mixed. Knowingly gave birth to a Down’s syndrome baby
BUT declined to call a special legislative session on some pro-life
legislation
•“Experienced”: Some high schools have more students than Wasilla has
residents. Many cities have more residents than the state of Alaska.
No legislative experience other than City Council. Little hands-on
supervisory or managerial experience; needed help of a city
administrator to run town of about 5,000.
•political maverick: not at all
•gutsy: absolutely!
•open & transparent: ??? Good at keeping secrets. Not good at
explaining actions.
•has a developed philosophy of public policy: no
•”a Greenie”: no. Turned Wasilla into a wasteland of big box stores
and disconnected parking lots. Is pro-drilling off-shore and in ANWR.
•fiscal conservative: not by my definition!
•pro-infrastructure: No. Promoted a sports complex and park in a city
without a sewage treatment plant or storm drainage system. Built
streets to early 20th century standards.
•pro-tax relief: Lowered taxes for businesses, increased tax burden on
residents
•pro-small government: No. Oversaw greatest expansion of city
government in Wasilla’s history.
•pro-labor/pro-union. No. Just because her husband works union
doesn’t make her pro-labor. I have seen nothing to support any claim
that she is pro-labor/pro-union.

WHY AM I WRITING THIS?

First, I have long believed in the importance of being an informed
voter. I am a voter registrar. For 10 years I put on student voting
programs in the schools. If you google my name (Anne ********* +
Alaska), you will find references to my participation in local
government, education, and PTA/parent organizations.

Secondly, I've always operated in the belief that "Bad things happen
when good people stay silent". Few people know as much as I do because
few have gone to as many City Council meetings.

Third, I am just a housewife. I don't have a job she can bump me out
of. I don't belong to any organization that she can hurt. But, I am no
fool; she is immensely popular here, and it is likely that this will
cost me somehow in the future: that’s life.

Fourth, she has hated me since back in 1996, when I was one of the 100
or so people who rallied to support the City Librarian against Sarah's
attempt at censorship.

Fifth, I looked around and realized that everybody else was afraid to
say anything because they were somehow vulnerable.

CAVEATS
I am not a statistician. I developed the numbers for the increase in
spending & taxation 2 years ago (when Palin was running for Governor)
from information supplied to me by the Finance Director of the City of
Wasilla, and I can't recall exactly what I adjusted for: did I adjust
for inflation? for population increases? Right now, it is impossible
for a private person to get any info out of City Hall--they are
swamped. So I can't verify my numbers.

You may have noticed that there are various numbers circulating for the
population of Wasilla, ranging from my "about 5,000", up to 9,000. The
day Palin’s selection was announced a city official told me that the
current population is about 7,000. The official 2000 census count was
5,460. I have used about 5,000 because Palin was Mayor from 1996 to
2002, and the city was growing rapidly in the mid-90’s.

Anne ***********
(e-mail address deleted per author's request)
August 31, 2008

=======

Updates:
See Palin's Start in Alaska: Not Politics as Usual <http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/03/us/politics/03wasilla.html?pagewanted=1&amp;_r=1&amp;hp> - NY Times, 9/3/08.

Also, Documents detail Palin's political life <http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13084.html> - Politico, 9/2/08.



To Home page <http://www.andrys.com/index.html>

dauwhe
09-05-2008, 06:43 PM
Please don't do this. One of the recent political topics is now the fourth-longest thread in the forum's history. Is that what we want this place to be?

There are thousands of places on the web where political discussion is encouraged. I'm happy with off-topic discussion, but I like the solution that TelemarkTips.com uses. There's lively discussion of skiing, bikes, movies, cars, beer, and bacon on the main forum. But controversial political discussion is in a "way off topic" forum. That leaves lots of freedom for the main forum, and provides a place for those who enjoy controversy.

Dave

TMB
09-05-2008, 06:48 PM
I agree with DAve,

Move this stuff to a separate sub-forum.

If this becomes the norm for the next 60 days, the forum will be unrecoverable.

BumbleBeeDave
09-05-2008, 07:00 PM
. . . Why on EARTH is it posted on this cycling forum? What possible cycling content does it have to offer? What possible outcome can there be to this thread other than to create more argument and dissension on a forum where the congregation has already split once recently?

Look at how many political threads have been started lately . . . Why? What possible benefit can there be to people who--I assume--come here largely to discuss cycling?

Why is this thread here? Kirk you say ignore it if you're not interested, but you MUST know based on recent experience that people will NOT ignore it. The usual suspects will make the usual comments and grind the usual axes and this thread will degenerate into the usual flame fest.

Pete, PLEASE ban ALL political content until after the election! Enough, Enough, ENOUGH already! :crap: :no: :butt:

BBD

jhcakilmer
09-05-2008, 07:03 PM
I agree with DAve,

Move this stuff to a separate sub-forum.

If this becomes the norm for the next 60 days, the forum will be unrecoverable.


What are you guys talking about, in 60 days, we will not have anything political to talk about for 4 years. Sure this is a cycling website, but we're not that one dimensional, are we?

If you guys don't like it, than don't read. I've stopped reading the other thread.....it's gotten to long, and drawn out......

Anyway, it was clearly labeled, so you didn't even have to open it!


I find the letter interesting, but will follow my "only one side of the story" policy, that I use. It's not like it would change my vote, since I'm not voting for them anyway.

Dekonick
09-05-2008, 07:42 PM
Campy

paczki
09-05-2008, 07:43 PM
Campy

Shimano...


Just kidding, Campy too. :banana:

Pete Serotta
09-05-2008, 07:49 PM
:confused: :confused: :confused:

Dekonick
09-05-2008, 07:51 PM
Pete - lock this one before someone mentions Sram...

DoH!

:crap:

Pete Serotta
09-05-2008, 07:52 PM
I have unlocked, the thread it was not offensive, but it was one person's view of another person. While it was not a personal attack it was close (in my view).

Lets let it run and see it is can stay civil. In no way was it meant to be a slap against Kirk007.


PETE

Pete Serotta
09-06-2008, 08:46 AM
unlocked but please keep in mind it is one person's (Not Kirk007) view and could be "a perception" by one person and not based entirely on facts

michael white
09-06-2008, 09:06 AM
looks like propanganda to me, and that's coming from a liberal.

katematt
09-06-2008, 09:34 AM
Shimano Sante

TMB
09-06-2008, 09:37 AM
looks like propanganda to me, and that's coming from a liberal.

It was written by a woman who has been battling with Palin since 1996 when they clashed over City council business.

jt2gt
09-06-2008, 09:41 AM
Guess what...a "View" like this can be written about every politician out there. Sounds like all of them to me.

JT

scottcw2
09-06-2008, 09:41 AM
Campy if I spec the group. Shimano only if it comes with the bike as a set.

jrmerson
09-06-2008, 09:43 AM
Campy Chorus

Now for something really important to me. When can I expect my Owners Club jersey. Joined in February. No jersey yet. :rolleyes:

TMB
09-06-2008, 09:50 AM
On a related note - when is the 2009 Campy going to be widely available??

SamIAm
09-06-2008, 10:08 AM
I was relieved when I saw that this thread was locked so quickly and dismayed to see it back in play this morning. I don't think politics should be debated here, but this posting was over the top. It was pure propaganda. Its one thing to post your own opinions, not a good thing in my opinion, but to just grab some spurious, one-sided commentary from a begrudged individual and just paste it into this space is kind of lame.

Companies, and Serotta is a company, typically try to keep things apolitical. Its better for business. You want to sell to liberals and conservatives right? Serotta's name is on this board after all. If they allow one of their assets to be used as a pulpit for this kind of political ax grinding and partisanship, they risk alienating some potential customers. Yes I know that opinions expressed here are not endorsed by Serotta, but you will never be able to draw that line sharp enough.

Clearly the original poster did not just post that piece because he thought it was interesting and he wanted to share. He posted it because he wants an undecided or McCain voter to switch to Obama. Did it work? How many of you conservatives or undecideds out there just switched alliances based on this single source hatchet job, brought to you by Kirk007 and sponsored indirectly by Serotta?

Ray
09-06-2008, 10:48 AM
It is what it is. It floated around the internet for a few days and lots of people assumed it was from someone who didn't exist. Turns out its legit, but its obviously just one person's experience.

I, too, would like you to vote for Obama. There. I said it. Whew, glad that's off my chest. But all I have is my opinion - no personal experience with any of the candidates.

I don't personally like stuff like this on the board just because of the amount of bandwidth it chews up and it can be easily read elsewhere. I don't like it when Adam throws huge segments of right-wing blogs into the discussion either. I like exchanging our own opinions and maybe the occasional link to something like this if you think its pertinent and people can follow if they want to.

-Ray

Kirk007
09-06-2008, 11:42 AM
As a community we are rather sophisticated when we make decisions regarding bicycles. We seek others opinions. We critically think through marketing claims such as "the stiffest lightest bike ever."

We have seen posted here recently many posts parroting the party line that Palin is an effective administrator; she stood on the national stage and proclaimed her fiscal responsibility etc. The campaign has denied access to the press. Any questions of her qualifications are met with retorts that the sexist biased lefty media is picking on her. Aren't we entitled to the truth? Shouldn't an election be about more than personality? Shouldn't we explore character and positions? We should ask these questions of all politicians, all of the time.

Within this article are statements like call into question the rhetoric concerning Palin; for instance those regarding the town's budget deficit. Many of these are verifiable; quantifiable. Many of these will be proven true or not. But they are the observations of someone who has experience with Palin. Are they less valid to the decision of who is qualified to be VP that some sranger posting here thier experience with a bicycle component is to making a decision regarding that? You weigh it for what it is worth, but it is information.

Vote for who you wish; my intent in all of these political posts has been to present information on issues that are important to me, with the hope that others might think about them with an open mind. We all have different life experiences, passions, point of view. As Americans we are entitled to those and no one nor no party should ridicule, disparage or try to silence those views by shouting them down. Naive - sure; unrealistic - sure; politics as usual - sure; but only because we the people accept politics as usual and don't call BS on it. At the end of the day I hope only that Americans will engage their brains, think critically and make a decision based on facts rather than rhetoric. This is a more important decision than campy vs. Shimano. I think these decisions have a place here for those who care to participate in the discussion. I will never understand why the ignore feature is not sufficient but I seem to be in the minority.

If the article had said that she was everything that the GOP claimed, I would have posted that too. Without information we cannot make informed decisions.

In any event, I have spent too much time on this site as I seem to be drawn to posts, like a moth to a flame, that I believe have faulty logic or analysis and that promote policies detrimental to our country. I must get back to work. This has been a decision long coming; the amount of time I've spent reading and responding here lately though has put me over the top - I hope to make a conscious effort to take the time that I've spent here posting and commit that to training. Maybe in 12 months I can report back that I have a new improved physique, a stem that the jerk would approve of, a lack of headset spacers and that I have definitively proved that bikes plane (or not).

It has been fun mostly, and I have learned some things and appreciated the various perspectives and the mostly civil discussions. I hope that in the sixty days ahead everyone will search out the truth regarding all the candidates that are running for any office that you are qualified to vote for. Our country needs an informed, engaged and active populace. Democracy depends on it.

Peace out,

Greg

93legendti
09-06-2008, 11:47 AM
Let it stay. It smacks of desperation...the coronation has turned into a dead even contest.

S.P. is the most popular governor in the country, so obviously this opinion carries so much weight... :D

I suppose I'd be desperate too if:
more people watched J.M.'s speech than B.O.'s;
polls show the population now views S.P. more favorably than B.O.;
polls show the population now views S.P. more favorably than J.B.;
polls show B.O.'s bounce is gone and the race is basically tied again.

Maybe someone could dig up interviews with B.O.'s challengers for his state seat...I think he sued them to get them out of the race. The great unifier....

Right Wing Bogs Ray?...I think you called the AP right wing.

Heck, Yahoo has been called a neo-con site here, so I'm not surprised. :D

Ray
09-06-2008, 11:50 AM
Greg,

Sorry to see you go, man. You always have a very thoughtful perspective to add to the mix, and its nice to have a few of those from people I agree with. Perhaps instead of all or nothing, check in once in a while and post. I go in cycles. When I'm at my desk and there's an interesting discussion going, I obviously can't stay out of it. Unfortunately, even past the point it stops being interesting. But there are plenty of days I just say "enough" and don't look at this site or any other. It'd be great if you'd stay around if you can do so without being consumed by it. If not, have a good one and let us know how the training goes.

-Ray

93legendti
09-06-2008, 11:54 AM
Greg,
...It'd be great if you'd stay around if...Ray
I agree with Ray.

gdw
09-06-2008, 01:26 PM
I'm with Sam on this one. This post was too much. It's petty propaganda and part of an orchestrated smear campaign against Palin. I'm a registered Independent and unfortunately recieve crap like this from both sides. Should I start posting it?

News Man
09-06-2008, 02:20 PM
I'm with Sam on this one. This post was too much. It's petty propaganda and part of an orchestrated smear campaign against Palin. I'm a registered Independent and unfortunately recieve crap like this from both sides. Should I start posting it?

+1 on this. Can you imagine what this board would degenerate into if people just posted crap like this from liberal and conservative fanatics. My inbox is full of this garbage, I don't need it on a cycling website.

These threads should not be just locked, they should be deleted immediately.

Moderators, end this and future occurrences of this crap, please.

Elefantino
09-06-2008, 02:23 PM
Campy = Obama
Shimano = McCain
SRAM = Obama or McCain
Sampson = Bob Barr

Vote for one.

scottcw2
09-06-2008, 02:27 PM
These threads should not be just locked, they should be deleted immediately.

Moderators, end this and future occurrences of this crap, please.

+1000

Pete Serotta
09-06-2008, 03:02 PM
Campy Chorus

Now for something really important to me. When can I expect my Owners Club jersey. Joined in February. No jersey yet. :rolleyes:


Send me your name, address, size, and when you joined.

Did you receive notice of joining - cancelled check, credit card charge, etc?

send to PETE@serotta.com. Thanks and I am sorry you have not received a jersey

Pete Serotta
09-06-2008, 03:06 PM
Primary reason to reopen was to make sure all knew it was not Kirk007 who got it closed.


I do not like censorship and try to walk a line that is neutral and not show my views. Sometimes that works and many others it does not.

BumbleBeeDave
09-06-2008, 03:13 PM
. . . until after the election if I were the only one making the decision. Content like this does nothing--NOTHING--to add to the value of this forum to any cyclist out there. There are literally hundreds--probably thousands--of other places to view and debate political content online today.

BUT . . . I view Pete as the head administrator of this forum and I will not go behind his back or against his clear decision if he has decided to reopen this thread. I respect his judgment as forum admin. I don't always agree with it, but hey, life would be pretty boring if friends always agreed on everything.

But I will make a public request to Pete to strongly consider once again banning all political threads until after election day. I'm aware of the comments of others to me in the past just saying to ignore the thread if you don't like it. And I can do that--for me. But one of the reasons for the existence of this forum is to offer an open and friendly community for current and potential Serotta owners and anyone else who wants to find an open, receptive environment for gaining CYCLING knowledge. In this current election campaign climate allowing blatantly partisan political postings like this simply creates an unnecessary possibility for current or new members to be annoyed, disgusted, or otherwise put off and go elsewhere. Do we really want them to do that? Does Serotta really want them to do that?

Discuss politics all you want. Just do it SOMEWHERE ELSE . . . Please. Is this censorship on a small scale? Maybe. But I'll endure the slings and arrows over that. I'm sick of politics, sick of the campaign--and sick of all the OP's who just can't seem to get it through their heads that this is not a political forum.

BBD