OT- the best car for $25,000

[Ken Robb]

New Car and Driver magazine has an interesting article comparing used cars with new cars for $25,000. I think that our local market has dropped for some of the cars they mention due to rising gas prices. I've been watching used Porsche prices (don't ask me why) and it's been common to see disparities of 30-100% between bids and reserves or buy-it-now prices.

[Pete Serotta]

Newer 2000 and up, PORSCHES are in a "no man" land as to selling price. Asking price is very high in regard to what the "sell now" price is. (at least here in NC. ) I know someone who bought a 911 CONVERTIBLE around 2002 for 30K., (it is a nice car)

The sales are so soft that the new 911 (2008 model ) are off over 30% this year. Look at the lease offers even on BOXTER and CAYMAN

As credit gets harder to obtain for many folks and with home price down in value home equity loans are fewer = disposable income (or debt) is not there.

Best 25K new car....CIVIC SI, Lightly equipted Mini S, Mazda 3, are a few.

Daughter just got a new Honda Accord and it is quite a ride....they are even discountly them around 9-10% here (no not the CIVIC or FIT for there is a list to get one)

[Ken Robb]

today's paper has Honda dealer ad for 3 new base model 2008 Fits at $14,000 each. I don't know if they have any all-new 2009 models yet.

[goonster]

I've been thinking about this too.

The way I see it, $15k for an off-lease or one-owner E46 is an incredible value. I like my cars to have actual dipsticks. The right 330ci bought now could be the deal of a generation.

Land Rover depreciation is legendary, but SAAB's don't seem to do so well either. $10k for a decent 9-5 Aero?

Porsches are pretty specific. The RS Americas actually sold quite slowly when new. Coupe with no sunroof? Worth more! 993's are holding their values very well, and the prices for widebodies are even going up slightly. SC's were up for a while, but seem to be back down.

[Pete Serotta]

The dealer here would love to get those. They had a 09 CIVIC roll off the truck and it was sold before the rep could get the key for a demo.

today's paper has Honda dealer ad for 3 new base model 2008 Fits at $14,000 each. I don't know if they have any all-new 2009 models yet.

[rnhood]

Its hard for me to imagine a better car for the price than a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry.

For a sports car, I like that little Nissan 350Z but, I don't know how expensive it is. I bet there are some good deals on them though.

[goonster]

The sales are so soft that the new 911 (2008 model ) are off over 30% this year. Look at the lease offers even on BOXTER and CAYMAN



That's crazy, because Porsche has been hedging the Euro, so a USDM Porsche at MSRP is a steal compared to what they're paying in Germany.


As credit gets harder to obtain for many folks and with home price down in value home equity loans are fewer = disposable income (or debt) is not there.


Porsche has been very profitable, but this will hurt. They have depended on the US market in a pretty big way since the 70's.

[goonster]

Its hard for me to imagine a better car for the price than a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry.

For my money, the Sonata is up there. Buy a Hyundai parts manager a beer sometime, and ask if he's been busy. :beer:

[dancinkozmo]

solstice....with employee pricing right now around 20-25 depending on options

[Ozz]

I picked up a Prius with touring ( ;) ), leather, navigation, blue-tooth, etc for just over $24K last February.

Fun little car...not a sports car, but gets around town just fine with plenty of room.

In fact, we rented one in our recent trip to Legoland / Disneyand....1 week trip, 2 adults, 2 kids in booster seats, 4+ bags of luggage.

Sips gas on top of that...It's cool to fill up for about $20 every two weeks.

For the money though, the Fit is hard to beat! It is being redesigned for 2009 (as is the Prius) and supposed to be a little bigger. Hopefully it won't impact gas mileage much.

Cheers.

[Ken Robb]

I like driving Accords but I had a brand new Camry for 4 days as a rental this year and it was a wallowing pig on very mushy suspension. It made a Ford Fusion feel like a Ferrari. The Fusion was a nice car and I averaged 24 mpg with the V-6 for a week in Minnesota. I was getting 29-31mpg on flat interstates at 75 mph.

[Ray]

For the money though, the Fit is hard to beat! It is being redesigned for 2009 (as is the Prius) and supposed to be a little bigger. Hopefully it won't impact gas mileage much.

The reviews I've read of the new Fit have the gas mileage as basically identical to the "old" Fit. I was concerned they'd give up some mileage too, but it seems not.

-Ray

[Sandy]

If my pea brain remembers correctly, you teach driving courses for BMW drivers. Limited to BMW's? Have you driven the 2008 M3? What do you think of it, please? I almost bought a 335i. Great engine with gobs of torque. Did not like the steering at all. Seemed very numb and light compared to my 1997 M3. Wound up buying a Cayman S. I know- not practical, two seats, limited storage, expensive,......Now I need smeone like you to teach me how to drive it.


Sandy

[Ken Robb]

I really like the 335i. Our good friends/neighbors have Z4 M roadster and she has 335i. I can drive either pretty much any time. The 335i just got back from their pal Steve Dinan's with his new software. Going to dinner last night the traction control kicked in when she booted it at 60 mph in 3rd gear. The amazing thing about the 335i is that it still gets her 20+ mpg around town and high 20's on the highway.

I have not driven a new M3 w/V-8. I have gotten nervous or smart in my old age and haven't instructed much this year. It's a little scary riding in the passenger seat with a rookie with a new 500+ HP car that only a truly world-class driver can exploit fully. Not just my opinion. I was quoting BMWNA's product manager.


I think everyone should have some real driver training or safety and pleasure. A 2-day school will transform your driving. It's at least like taking someone who's never held a golf club and getting them shooting in the mid-80s. At California BMWCCA driving schools any safe car is allowed and Porsches are common. I have taught at PCA schools which were ok, POC events which were a little loosy-goosy, and Ferrari Club "schools". I was working one where 2 people died and it was obvious why ATMO. "Pay your money and be stupid if you feel like it." If any of my pals want me to instruct them I can usually still be persuaded to instruct on the west coast. I doubt that I'll be going to Road Atlanta again.

FWIW, BMWCCA Octoberfest is this month at Watkins Glen with 3 or 4 days of driving school. See the web-site.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . and it was $27.5k last year. But that's the fire breathing model with the turbo. I'm imagining you could easily get a fully optioned regular 3 for $25k or less. My Mazda is a wonderful daily driver, gets great mileage even with the big engine, and fold the rear seats down and easily get 2 or even 3 bikes in there if you lay them on their sides and put blankets between them. I've done it . . .

BBD

[torquer]

today's paper has Honda dealer ad for 3 new base model 2008 Fits at $14,000 each. I don't know if they have any all-new 2009 models yet.
NYTimes reported that 2009 Fits are all sold out; in real world, that means some dealers will be gouging customers with spectacular mark-ups. Funny how the market works that way.

Concerning Porsches (how did that get into a thread about $25K cars?), 2009 911s have significant engine improvements (both power and mileage) plus the Tiptronic auto transmission is being replaced by a twin-clutch sequential unit, so you can shift just like M.Schumacher (while scrolling your Crackberry and sipping your vente, no doubt). These upgrades will likely accellerate late-model trade ins and perhaps put downward pressure on the prices for leftovers. POA, on the other hand, will strive mightily to maintain high retail prices to maintain brand status.

[Volant]

I just purchased a Honda over the Labor Day weekend. Got a stellar deal and the dealer had 5 '09 new Fits just sitting there. I was there 3 hours and didn't see one Fit move, but saw several Accords and Civics move off the lot.

[Ken Robb]

note that the article was mostly about cool USED cars so the Porsche was 1989 Carrwra coupe.

[Birch]

I really like the 335i. Our good friends/neighbors have Z4 M roadster and she has 335i. I can drive either pretty much any time. The 335i just got back from their pal Steve Dinan's with his new software. Going to dinner last night the traction control kicked in when she booted it at 60 mph in 3rd gear. The amazing thing about the 335i is that it still gets her 20+ mpg around town and high 20's on the highway.

I have not driven a new M3 w/V-8. I have gotten nervous or smart in my old age and haven't instructed much this year. It's a little scary riding in the passenger seat with a rookie with a new 500+ HP car that only a truly world-class driver can exploit fully. Not just my opinion. I was quoting BMWNA's product manager.


I think everyone should have some real driver training or safety and pleasure. A 2-day school will transform your driving. It's at least like taking someone who's never held a golf club and getting them shooting in the mid-80s. At California BMWCCA driving schools any safe car is allowed and Porsches are common. I have taught at PCA schools which were ok, POC events which were a little loosy-goosy, and Ferrari Club "schools". I was working one where 2 people died and it was obvious why ATMO. "Pay your money and be stupid if you feel like it." If any of my pals want me to instruct them I can usually still be persuaded to instruct on the west coast. I doubt that I'll be going to Road Atlanta again.

FWIW, BMWCCA Octoberfest is this month at Watkins Glen with 3 or 4 days of driving school. See the web-site.

I remember reading about that one. Wasn't that the one with the Carrera GT crash or am I putting two stories together?

I used to have an E46 M3. I now have a Toyota FJ Cruiser and love it! Just remove the seat post and I have two mounts in the rear cargo so that I can hard mount two bikes in there. Has a lil pep, awesome road presence and for a tank, 20mpg isn't that bad.

If I go back to the fun side... 997 C4S or Z4M Coupe.... She loves the 997 Targa and her car has 100k miles on it... hmmmmm...... :banana:

[tuscanyswe]

[QUOTE=goonster]That's crazy, because Porsche has been hedging the Euro, so a USDM Porsche at MSRP is a steal compared to what they're paying in Germany.


My brother is selling his 911 (993) from 96 here in sweden, hes asking 400k sek approx 60k usd, and ppl are interested..

Am hoping its still around in 5 years when gas is even more silly, then he will be begging me to trade it for my serotta :D

[Ahneida Ride]

Land Rover depreciation is legendary.


My Buddy got a great deal on a Land Rover.

Now he can't afford to repair it !!!!

[Pete Serotta]

My Buddy got a great deal on a Land Rover.

Now he can't afford to repair it !!!!

Nor can he find someone to take it off his hands..

[cmg]

best car for $25K? a used 1998 toyota corolla with about 155K-185k miles on it. one can be had for about $3k. air cond. will probably still be working. it will take you about 20 years to spent the remaining $23k repairing it.

[palincss]

If my pea brain remembers correctly, you teach driving courses for BMW drivers. Limited to BMW's? Have you driven the 2008 M3? What do you think of it, please? I almost bought a 335i. Great engine with gobs of torque. Did not like the steering at all. Seemed very numb and light compared to my 1997 M3. Wound up buying a Cayman S. I know- not practical, two seats, limited storage, expensive,......Now I need smeone like you to teach me how to drive it.


Sandy


Yes, but -- how is it as a bicycle carrier? If a car can't do that well, it ain't worth squat no matter what else it can do. (This is "News for Parrots", isn't it?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20Kx9CyYPAQ

[dnades]

Get a used cpo saab 9-5 wagon. Any where between 20-27k. Great car. Tons of room. Can tow a trailer if it has to. Gas mileage from 24/32mpg city/hwy. Four cylinder with about 260hp. Very peppy when you need it. Saabs are probably the most undervalued luxury car brand. Alas your car won't be worth a lot of scratch when you have paid it off but if you plan on driving it for 10 years or so that really isn't an issue.

[stuckey]

I say Honda they last forever and if you want to sell it the resale is great.

[Pete Serotta]

I have lost track of the number of Hondas the family has had. All have been excellent. They currently have a factory special on the CRV and that is pretty bike friendly.


I say Honda they last forever and if you want to sell it the resale is great.

[stuckey]

I have lost track of the number of Hondas the family has had. All have been excellent. They currently have a factory special on the CRV and that is pretty bike friendly.

The CRV is nice I have never tried to put bikes into one yet. I kind of want a Element after driving a Civic Coupe for the last few years. I have really come to love Hondas after switching from a Chevy bodyshop to a Honda one.

[Pete Serotta]

The CRV is nice I have never tried to put bikes into one yet. I kind of want a Element after driving a Civic Coupe for the last few years. I have really come to love Hondas after switching from a Chevy bodyshop to a Honda one.


My son in law and I love the Element BUT the wives " will not be seen" in them!!

(new design planned for 09 so 08s should have a factory incentive to dealer to move.)

[stuckey]

My son in law and I love the Element BUT the wives " will not be seen" in them!!

(new design planned for 09 so 08s should have a factory incentive to dealer to move.)

They have been moving 08s at a good price, I almost want to see if there is a Orange one left.

[Ken Robb]

[QUOTE=Birch]I remember reading about that one. Wasn't that the one with the Carrera GT crash or am I putting two stories together?

the very one-both driver and passenger were from La Jolla though I did not know them.

[jeffg]

Bought it with sport package, leather seats for under 24K last year. I can fit a bike in the back and have driven it to cycling events, even one where I spent the night sleeping in the passenger seat!

It has a IPod jack and cam with a video IPod, so all is well.

I drove my 3 and 4 year old boys to preschool in it today since they love riding in it.

I am going to get a roof box and the rear bike carrier and then we can go on weekend trips with it!

[Louis]

Why Acura / Honda decided to discontinue the Integra I will never know. I can only hope that they are regretting their decision and will come out with something similar soon. However, I can't wait forever. My '97 still averages 35 mpg over an entire tank (mostly highway) and if the exact same care were available today new I would buy it again. I have 166,xxx miles on it, so maybe one, max two more years. I guess I'll look at the Fit and the Mazda hatchback, but to my eye the Integra is way sexier than either of those cars. We'll see.

[stuckey]

I also think it was a strange decision on Acura/Hondas part. Discontinuing the RSX was silly to me also. The new Acura line is disappointing for those of us that like coupes. I do like the new Acura models but they need something new to get me to buy one.
Oh did anyone see the new Accord diesel that is suppose to come out this year?

[soulspinner]

If my pea brain remembers correctly, you teach driving courses for BMW drivers. Limited to BMW's? Have you driven the 2008 M3? What do you think of it, please? I almost bought a 335i. Great engine with gobs of torque. Did not like the steering at all. Seemed very numb and light compared to my 1997 M3. Wound up buying a Cayman S. I know- not practical, two seats, limited storage, expensive,......Now I need smeone like you to teach me how to drive it.


Sandy
Buy the book The art of racing in the rain and then go to a racing school like Skip Barber and have fun...

[Climb01742]

just saw "automobile" magazine's oct. new car issue, and BMW is bringing a diesel 3 series to america. about 265 hp but way over 400 pound feet of torque. 60 in just over 6sec but over 30mpg highway. that would float my boat.

but a 993 widebody, especially a c4s, would be heaven on earth. that said, the cayman size is closer to my ideal 911 size, which is the late 80s 911. since 1990, 911s have been bulking up -- reportedly to accommodate, um, wider drivers -- and for me, have been losing some of their appeal. IMO, sports cars are more fun when they're small.

[Ken Robb]

just saw "automobile" magazine's oct. new car issue, and BMW is bringing a diesel 3 series to america. about 265 hp but way over 400 pound feet of torque. 60 in just over 6sec but over 30mpg highway. that would float my boat.

but a 993 widebody, especially a c4s, would be heaven on earth. that said, the cayman size is closer to my ideal 911 size, which is the late 80s 911. since 1990, 911s have been bulking up -- reportedly to accommodate, um, wider drivers -- and for me, have been losing some of their appeal. IMO, sports cars are more fun when they're small.

Several of my pals including the editor of "Roundel" the BMWCCA magazine have driven these in Europe and have nothing but rave reviews. On extended tours and laps on the Nurburgring they delivered about 50% greater mileage while providing ample power. The fact that diesel fuel is taxed much less than gasoline there makes the economics even better for the oil-burners.

[Pete Serotta]

This is a nice car, but not as nice as the Integra was. WIsh we got the Type R Civic that Europe gets


Why Acura / Honda decided to discontinue the Integra I will never know. I can only hope that they are regretting their decision and will come out with something similar soon. However, I can't wait forever. My '97 still averages 35 mpg over an entire tank (mostly highway) and if the exact same care were available today new I would buy it again. I have 166,xxx miles on it, so maybe one, max two more years. I guess I'll look at the Fit and the Mazda hatchback, but to my eye the Integra is way sexier than either of those cars. We'll see.

[Volant]

[QUOTE=Serotta_Pete]My son in law and I love the Element BUT the wives " will not be seen" in them!!
QUOTE]


I believe that's a selling point!

[pjm]

Just picked up a new 328i and love it! Two things I'm not crazy about, though.

One is the run flat tires which really limit you for replacements. I think there are two choices, Continental and Bridgestone.

The other is the 15000 mile oil change intervals. There is no way I'm going that far between OCs because I own it and may keep it for a while. In fact I've heard that the 335i just kills oil with the heat the turbos produce.

Thoughts from any of you car guys?

By the way, I got 26 mpg on the first tank....not bad for a car that will go
0-60 in 6.1 secs.

[Ken Robb]

oil's cheap--engines ain't.

My 1992 325i was my ride for about 50 (no kidding) track days. I always changed the oil before each event or 3000-3,500 miles, whichever came first. It did lots of stop/go driving when I was a Realtor.

My pal still owns it w/175,000 miles and it's still going strong.

[67-59]

Why Acura / Honda decided to discontinue the Integra I will never know. I can only hope that they are regretting their decision and will come out with something similar soon.

Ditto for the original Legend. I had an '89 coupe with manual transmission, but alas, had to get something bigger when the family grew. I'd give anything to have that car back.....

[benb]

I have an RSX Type-S (2005) and I agree they need to bring something like that back.

The thing is pure "car lifestyle" guys like the Civic Si much better then the Integra or RSX.

For some reason in the US a lot of people just HATE hatchbacks. I don't get it.. I can stick 2 full size road bikes in the back of my RSX then stick a weekends worth of luggage for 2 people in as well.

Then get on the highway and get 30mpg, and not have to worry about someone stealing bikes off racks along the way.

Honda doesn't have squat that can do that right now.. they have really gone downhill on utility & efficient use of space on a lot of their vehicles.

I drove a new MDX a while ago.. holy cow waste of space. But that is an Acura, the Acuras seem to be much less practical then Hondas.

The Civic Si is never going to be a Porsche killer.. why destroy it's utility compared to an RSX or an older Civic Si... ?

[DukeHorn]

General rule in my family is to try to stay near the 20k mark for a new car purchase. Sister got an orange Element last year that she absolutely loves for San Diego. It can carry her sea kayak, their bikes, etc. Floor is easy to clean esp. with all the sand that gets tracked in, etc. Gas mileage is blah, but for 21k, she has no complaints.

I got a Mazda3 hatchback to replace a Grand Cherokee. Use to carry my whitewater kayak and my winter gear inside the SUV, but got a roof rack to handle all the kayaking and snowboard gear on the Mazda. Reasonably zippy. Zero percent financing for 3 years. Seemed like a better bang for the buck than the Audi A3 hatchback and the 2 door Volvo coupe that came out. Only problem is that every 10th car in the Bay Area seems to be a mazda3.....

[bfd]

oil's cheap--engines ain't.

My 1992 325i was my ride for about 50 (no kidding) track days. I always changed the oil before each event or 3000-3,500 miles, whichever came first. It did lots of stop/go driving when I was a Realtor.

My pal still owns it w/175,000 miles and it's still going strong.

Are you using synthetic oil on your 92 325i? If so, the 3-3500 mile oil change is an overkill. On my 90 535i, 5spd, 119K miles, I use regular dino oil and change it at that interval. But, unless you're racing, I doubt you need to change it that frequently.

For the *new* 328i, that does use synthetic oil, change it ever 7500 miles, don't forget the filter.

If you have a manual tranny, change the oil every 30K - use a good synthetic like one from Redline or Royal Purple. Similarly, don't forget the rear differential. Of course, I've heard new 3 series don't have a drain plug on the differential, so you'll have to suck out the old oil through the filler hole before adding new. Again, you should use a good synthetic from Redline or RP.

Good Luck! Brewster

[goonster]

Are you using synthetic oil on your 92 325i? [. . . ] But, unless you're racing, I doubt you need to change it that frequently.


Ken is (was) a CCA instructor and the car saw 50 track days. That was the whole point.

[WickedWheels]

Just bought the wife a 2009 Subaru Forester Limited. Still waiting for it to get delivered. It was as nice as we could find for a small-SUV with AWD. It handled so much better than a CRV or a RAV-4 that it wasn't a contest. They start at $19k and change and go up to about $30k with the turbo.

[nohappen]

I drove a new MDX a while ago.. holy cow waste of space. But that is an Acura, the Acuras seem to be much less practical then Hondas.

[Ken Robb]

my 325i has been owned by my pal since 1998 when I got an M3. I started using Castrol Synthetic in it while I owned it but I can't remember exactly when. My M3 has 134,000 miles and it has had synthetic since its first change. Several years ago I switched from Castrol 20-50 to BMW 5-30 per BMW recommendation. The light stuff is supposed to be good for keeping the VANOS operating. It now uses about a quart in 1500 miles when it used to burn none but I don't consider that a problem.

[H1449-6]

I like the F150 for as little as $15K brand new. Most versatile vehicle for the price. It'll run forever, tow a reasonable sized load, haul dozens of bags of mulch, three or four bikes fork mounted in the bed with room left over, etc. Well equipped for well under $25K. Used at about half that. Well used but still in good shape for $5K or so.

One of the favorite vehicles I've owned in the past few years.

MPG should be 15-20.

[bigman]

Merceds Benz E500 4matic wagon - you can pick up a used one with about 50,000 miles.. nothing like it. Pricey to own but worth it.

[abqhudson]

VW Rabbit drives very well. A bit under your price, but, a very functional ride.

[K Bedford]

Only saw one mention of a VW??
I currently have a basic Golf and love it.
I've been dreaming of a new GTI but can't afford one...yet.

[ThasFACE]

Low-mileage e39 m5's can be had cheaply right now. Superb cars and generally not victims of racer-boy syndrome (read: unnecessary spoilers, lowering kits, etc). I want one.

[gt6267a]

at least a few months ago, audi was offering 0.9% (you read that right) financing on cpo cars and offering nice price reductions. i picked up a 2005 for less than 20k. i am enjoying it.

[H1449-6]

Only saw one mention of a VW??
I currently have a basic Golf and love it.
I've been dreaming of a new GTI but can't afford one...yet.

I've owned five VWs and for some reason keep coming back. Though they experience mechanical problems earlier than they ought, IMO.

[bfd]

Low-mileage e39 m5's can be had cheaply right now. Superb cars and generally not victims of racer-boy syndrome (read: unnecessary spoilers, lowering kits, etc). I want one.

Caveat - if you're interested in a BMW e39 M5 (2000-03), make sure you get it checked out by a competent mechanic who knows these cars. Reason:

a. tires - e39 M5s are known to eat tires. According to Mike Miller of Roundel tech talk, he's reported that some people get as little as 8K (EIGHT THOUSAND) miles on their tires!

b. clutches - e39 M5s are know to burn up clutches and replacement is not uncommon at 70K

c consistent service. The engine on this car cost something like $21K if it needs replacing. Make sure all service records are present and that the owner consistently changed oil, preferably with Castrol 10-60 oil, which, guess what, is only available from BMW dealers at a retail price of like $14.50/qt.

d. gas mileage. With 400hp V8, e39 M5s are known to be thirsty, especially in urban driving, and with gas at $4-5/gal (ok, its suppose to be dropping), be prepared to pay...

Nevertheless, if you get the right car, it should be sweet!