Unbelievable

[Richard]

Are you ready to donate? This makes me more than a little ill.

http://www.believetyler.org/

[Big Dan]

Another word that comes to mind....AMAZING... :eek:

[William]

Spin makes the world go around. :rolleyes:




William

[Too Tall]

(From the website)
" The next few months will be trying and expensive, potentially totaling over a half million dollars. Believetyler.org is an informational site created to give the public the full story behind the current allegations, and to allow those who want to help to do so through an on-line donation link."

Excuse me whilst I don me hip boots.

[Louis]

I obviously have no inside info on the Tyler story, but I do seem to recall that OJ was also innocent...

[JohnS]

Donating money to a millionaire isn't very high on my list of priorities...

[Onno]

I guess I also think that Hamilton is probably guilty, but I'm going to suspend final judgment, and current cynicism, until after his hearing. I'd really like to hear his defense. It does seem to me at least possible that he is innocent. If he really is innocent, then he would be doing exactly as he is, it seems to me, and mounting a vigorous defense, and putting up the website announcing this. Of course we've heard this all before from so many others that it's hard to keep suspending judgment. But it's still the right thing to do.

Onno

[BumbleBeeDave]

Tyler may be a "millionaire" but he does not have the resources of the UCI/WADA. He also has a great deal at stake as far as reputation. I have made this comparison before, and will again: Getting accused of this is like being accused of child molestation. Most people believe the worst immediatley and that is the impression that sticks, no matter what the outcome of the "official" proceedings. Even if he is found innocent in the hearings, his reputation is permanently shot with a lot of people. Public opinion is important to his cause now and his future earning power. It's not surprising he would want to do what he can to influence it in the months before the official hearing when the rumor mill is still going to be going full blast.

Also keep in mind that this site may have been put together without his knowledge or approval, though I doubt it. I anxiously await the outcome of the proceedings and hope for the best for him, but I am not rabid enough to send him a check.

BBDave

[Climb01742]

one name: richard jewel. sometimes accusation and guilt are linked. sometimes not.

[SGP]

right now Tyler is guilty until proven innocent, and then there will always be a shadow of doubt. He is also a very well paid pro athlete. It is a little creepy for him to have his hat out for change like a late night cable evangelist. Wouldn't his sponsors have more to gain, and more reason to support his efforts?

[JohnS]

Maybe his sponsors know something that we don't...

[Richard]

Gimme a break. Child molestation??!! Ultimately, no matter how horrible, child molestation, in the absence of real evidence, is a "he said, she said" accusation. This is based on evidence -- a blood test that has been in existence for years.

Notwithstanding anyone's belief in Hamilton's guilt or innocence, it offends me that he is asking for donations. That is low. He is (or was), after all, paid millions to ride his bike. I guess those statements that he was willing to spend his last penny on his defense are being replaced with "I will spend your money" on my defense.

[dirtdigger88]

Didn't Clinton do the same thing during one or more of his trials? :)

Jason

[BumbleBeeDave]

". . . it offends me that he is asking for donations."

Obviously, you have not had to pay for legal services lately.

Child molestation? Of course it's "he said, she said"--There IS a blood test in this case. The question is whether that blood test truly IS reliable evidence. But even if the blood test IS proven to be unreliable or the "victims" of child molestation recant their accusations, the damage to reputation is still done in the minds of many.

People often believe the worst and that is just what many will keep believing, even if Tyler is exonerated.

BBDave

[Big Dan]

Don't think Tyler is going to risk all of his money on this defense. Anyways he's almost reaching the end and it would be difficult to recover the money. A lot of damage has been done already.... :bike:

[OldDog]

NOT! We as cyclists as a whole, do many charitable things from entering rides to benefit a local club to raising money for all kinds of disease's to contributing to our own when in need from accidents and injury and even death, i.e. eddy b., nicole, etc. Tyler is a pro, a businessman. His business has hit a bump in the road and he needs to deal with it to continue "doing business". I think requests for donations are inappropriate in this situation, however I can appreciate the need to let his fans know his side, via a website. I wish him the very best, he has an international fight on his hands.

[vaxn8r]

Gimme a break. Child molestation??!! Ultimately, no matter how horrible, child molestation, in the absence of real evidence, is a "he said, she said" accusation. This is based on evidence -- a blood test that has been in existence for years.

Notwithstanding anyone's belief in Hamilton's guilt or innocence, it offends me that he is asking for donations. That is low. He is (or was), after all, paid millions to ride his bike. I guess those statements that he was willing to spend his last penny on his defense are being replaced with "I will spend your money" on my defense.
Agreed, this is the second time BBD has invoked that inappropriate analogy. Tyler went through testing like every other pro cyclist and he was one of the few or perhaps the only this year with a positive result.

BBD, your analogy would hold more water if you compared Tyler to a child abuser who had left semen stains which had then tested positive to the abuser by DNA analysis. That would be a fair analogy. OTOH, lets just drop the analogy because it's sick.

[Andreu]

......related (friend, family or business associate) in anyway to Tyler? or is this misplaced kindness?
I have to be honest I did not dwell on the website as I have absolutely no intention of sending any money. I suppose anybody can ask for money but they have to be prepared for the response and or reaction they are likely to receive.
Bizzare,
A

[JohnS]

He seems to be at least as "guilty" as Richie Virenque was and think of how all of us vilified the French for sticking up for him! We seem to want to clean up the sport unless it's "one of us". Why does everyone think the UCI and WADA would have a vendetta against Hamilton?
It's just like in the old Olympic days when we always talked about the East German "he-women" and how us good, God-fearing, flag-waving Americans would never do anything like that. Oops, I forgot about our track and field athletes!

[Climb01742]

it just seems to me that this story has a ways to go before all of the facts or issues are on the table. waiting to judge costs us nothing. and i do believe in due process. tyler has been accused. the accusors have presented their evidence. tyler should have a chance to present his. then we all can decide based on a fuller set of facts.

[Richard]

JohnS, I agree with all you said, except that, if memory serves, Verenque did not test positive!! Yet he was guilty and considered evil incarnate because he defended his innocence (until he admitted guilt). So when "one of us" tests positive, he is still a good guy while he defends his innocence in the face of the test and the testers have to prove their process. A little on the hypocritical end of the spectrum...no?

[Climb01742]

richard, to be fair, there were very few tests in 1997. and very little desire to use them. what they did find was a carload of drugs headed toward festina's hotel.

i probably am biased toward cutting tyler a little slack, as i would be for most riders. due process is important i think. and i guess i believe that character is a predictor of actions. tyler seems like a straight shooter. the facts may prove me 100% wrong. but i guess i'm inclined to wait.

[jeffg]

"Please note that the defense of Tyler Hamilton will first and foremost be paid for by the Hamilton's and the funds raised by Believe Tyler Campaign will support the medical and scientific research needed to appropriately educate youth cyclists on the dangers of doping. "

If this is true, why not just ask that people show their faith in Tyler by contributing to his foundation? Do we need a Tyler-sponsored doping research/education fund as well? This seems very bizarre to me and ultimately counter-productive. If I support Tyler I write him an open letter, wear a button, donate to the good work he does. If Tyler doesn't need my money for his legal defense, why shouldn't my money go to a things Tyler cares about? This quote seems to suggest that there is not enough or not "appropriate" scientific research on the dangers of doping already!? Let's stick with the MS cause, Tyler, and may you (and your legion of pin-wearing supporters) be vindicated in court. On the other hand, if this Messiah/Evita complex doesn't wear off, maybe I'd rather see you sit on the sidelines and see Lance win a seventh TdF.

[Richard]

Climb, I did not start this thread as a commentary on guilt or innocence, but because I was appalled at the creation of the website asking for our money. It evolved into a defend Tyler thread. I am all for due process, and that is what the hearings are for. If I am not mistaken, Hamilton will have a chance to defend himself and continue to race. Some have succeeded. The cocaine candy incident, for instance.

Our opinion doesn't matter, if he gets off, he will continue to earn millions and if he doesn't, then not. As I said before, the notion of the website offends me.

As for Virenque and JohnS' comment, I think that he pointed out the hypocrosy of the situation and I simply agreed. Tyler is "more" guilty than Virenque, and yet, people want to let "due process" prevail. They did not in Verenqe's case. Given the facts at the time, a carload of drugs going to a hotel should certainly not be construed as evidence of drug use if a failed test is not considered absolute proof.

And, by the way, I posted this because the conversation is more interesting (to me anyway) than the TdFL off the front issue.

[Climb01742]

[QUOTE=Richard]Climb, I did not start this thread as a commentary on guilt or innocence, but because I was appalled at the creation of the website asking for our money.

i share your feeling of being appalled.

[ThomasAylesbury]

I grew up right down the street from Hamilton, my parents still live there. Niether he or his parents are loaded. They are upper middle class at best. Visit Marblehead someday, see where he lives, it is nothing compared to others in town. None of you are close to knowing what is going on behind the scenes. He will prove you all wrong.

[JohnS]

I don't know what he does with his money, but I know that he is far from "upper middle class at best". He has made in the millions over the last few years. Marblehead is not his only residence.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . analogy was intended ONLY in comparing the reaction of the public at large to such charges. In both cases, the popular reaction AS I HAVE SEEN IT is to assume guilt until proven innocent--before a trial, before any evidence is publically presented.

In both cases the alleged perpetrator is convicted in the court of public opinion as soon as the accusation is made. The final outcome of the "official" proceedings is often irrelevant. Vaxn8r's description of the analogy itself as "sick" only serves to prove my point. It seems to me that many cycling fans react to charges of the type made against Tyler exactly like the general public reacts to accusations of child molestation--with instant indignation and horror and assumption that any such charges MUST be true, or else why would they have been made by "responsible" authorities?

Well, sometimes susch charges are NOT true, and my point is that we need to keep an open mind. But I stand by the comparison--I think it is a valid one in the context in which I made it.

BBDave

[Richard]

Except that in your first sentence you say:"...before any evidence is publically presented." Well, evidence was publically presented. He failed a test. Ergo, he must prove his innocence. He claims he will do so. Go for it...just don't ask for public donations. That is in very bad taste.

[SGP]

analogy is correct in that the stigma and burden of public opinion that the acused has to deal with. once acused = always suspected in the public eye.
:banana:

[William]

He will prove you all wrong.

Umm, last time I checked, not everyone here is screaming for his head. The problem lies in the asking for money. I for one and many others here feel the same way...let him have his day in court. If he is guilty, make an example of him. If he is innocent, hopefully he'll get an apology and go back to racing. Period.

William

[Climb01742]

He will prove you all wrong.

i'd guess about half of the posts on tyler's situation have been supportive of him, hoping he's both clean and can prove it. your reply seems a bit broad.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I don't conisder the UCI SAYING "he failed a test" to be evidence per se, because I have seen no materials presented regarding the methodology of the test or actual test numbers. Indeed, even if I DID see them, the medical nature is so obtuse that I probably would not understand it.

They are saying they have seen the smoking gun and are asking us to trust them that it really was smoking, but they have not showed us the actual weapon. That's why I look forward to the actual hearings and why I think we should keep an open mind.

As for the relative taste of asking for donations, he's free to do so no matter what our judgement of taste--and we are free to ignore his request.

BBDave

[fjaws]

I gotta agree with Richard on this one. He went on and on about he would spend HIS last penny to prove his innocence. This seems pretty cheesy to me.

How was it that his team management went to press stating his B-sample from the Vuelta was going to come back positive when the test hadn't been completed yet?

He has a Gold medal because of a technicality not because he was innocent. If there were still a viable sample to test his B-test from the Olympics would have been positive as well. The guys in the lab assured him a medal by mishandling his blood.

[va rider]

Didn't he fail two tests? And, weren't those two tests based on different methodologies?

Yea, I know that the back-up sample was lost for the second Olympic test. Lucky, Tyler.

There's an old saying, how long do you have to hear the hooves of a horse before you know it's a horse. (okay, I may have butchered that alittle).

[vaxn8r]

...That's why I look forward to the actual hearings and why I think we should keep an open mind.

BBDave
Open mind? Hmmmm...

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that 20 years in journalism has taught me, it’s that bad things happen to good people all the time. But it’s also taught me that good people DO bad things all the time. Very little surprises me any more, and I think the chances are greater than 50-50 that he did do it. If you are trying to paint me as a blind follower, then I’m sorry to disappoint you. I think it’s probable that he did, but not a certainty. There is still a reasonable doubt in my mind. That’s why I want to hear HIS side of the story, and so far we haven’t heard it.

BBDave

[Richard]

I appreciate you are not a blind follower, BBD, but come on, do you really expect that hearings are going to clear it up? There will be an obtuse, technical challenge to the methodology and we'll go through this guilty/innocent trip again. Do you question fingerprint or DNA evidence this vigorously? I'll never be an expert in them, but I do trust the science. A test that has a long track record that has been adapted to weed out cheaters in cycling probably is correct. FWIW, I would put TH in the good people who make bad mistakes category. He is nearing the end of his career and maybe was desperate to come out of the shadows of LA and make the impact he felt was expected of him by Phonak. Also, after a bad season, the Olympics were to be his season saver.

[BumbleBeeDave]

“I'll never be an expert in them, but I do trust the science.“

And that’s just it--I don’t trust the science of THIS PARTICULAR TEST yet. I appreciate that blood testing of this TYPE (no pun intended) has a good track record. But I also know from more than a few media sources that the UCI was VERY anxious to get this test into practice. They had hyped it to the point where it was almost mandatory that they get it into general use for this past racing season. Pressure like that can lead to some hasty decisions that put the organization’s reputation before the real guilt or innocence of the individual.

I think that the generally acknowledged fact that Tyler failed two different tests at two different times weighs heavily against him. It greatly reduces the chances that this was just a case of sloppy lab work, even with the IOC’s admitted f***up of freezing the second Olympic sample.

I don’t expect the hearings to clear up every question. But I do look forward to hearing each side give it their best shot. So far we have not heard ANY of Tyler’s side of this as far as a scientific, legally admissible explanation. And really, when you think about it, we have not heard the UCI’s either. I want more information from BOTH sides, and I expect the hearings to clear that up to my satisfaction.

Part of this is also the morbid fascination of watching an oncoming train wreck. These two trains are heading toward each other and when they crash at his hearings, somebody has GOT to come out on the short end. And I wait with just a bit of amusement to see what kind of explanation he does come up with, cuz’ it’s gonna HAVE to be that “incredible story” he refers to in order to get him out of THIS one.

But in the meantime I will not conceal my admiration for Tyler based on what I KNOW he has done, rather than throw my loyalty in the trash bin because of what he is ALLEGED to have done. What concerns me is this increasing habit of a premature rush to judgement in these cases and an almost total lack of intelligent enforcement in these matters in the face of the politics.

Will our hero escape in the last reel? Or will the forces of evil triumph? Guess we’ll have to wait and see. But until we DO see, I will keep my hero.

BBDave

[Jeff N.]

With all the dope allegations in professional sports these days, I now find myself strangely not giving a rat's a.. anymore. Jeff N.