What makes a Serotta a Serotta? Or a Steelman a Steelman?

[roguedog]

Forgive me if a babble a little as I struggle to express my questions...

I drool over all these cool looking bikes that I can't currently afford but like any good cyclist I'm always looking :)

I understand that the ride qualities of steel differs from carbon and aluminum, etc. I get that..

But within steel bikes.. what makes a Serotta a Serotta? Or a Steelman a Steelman? Or a Vanilla a Vanilla?

Is it the craftsmanship? Does each brand/artist have a "signature" quality or ride or something? Why do you buy a Steelman vs a Vanilla vs a Serotta?

I don't know if I expressed this well enough but if you read this far.. thanks for the eyeballs.

[stackie]

I think that someone said it in regards to Richard Sachs. You are buying the experience and a part of him.

I think the same goes for Serotta, Steelman, Vanilla, or Johnnycomelately. If you want the benefit of a larger company with greater resources at their disposal, Serotta is a great way to go. If you want to connect with the guy who will design, construct, maybe even paint your frame, go with a smaller guy. If you're lucky you live close to a great framebuilder, go to him or her.
Every time I ride my Vanilla, I think about Sacha. Maybe he nicked himself as he was building my frame and a little of his blood trickled into the down tube. I was lucky enough to stumble on Vanilla before he made it big and was able to fly myself and wife to Portland for a visit and buy a frame for less than the price of a CSi then. Now, I'm lucky to live 45 minutes from Rock Lobster, so I went with him for my latest steed. I still miss my Serotta. Matter of fact, I just saw a pic of it somewhere. DBRK had kindly purchased it from me, had a steel fork made for it and painted it a light blue. But, I still recognized her. I shed a little tear.

So, I'll bet your wondering which is better? Depends on what you want. I think that with today's modern tubesets, a good framebuilder can create a bike that rivals the CSi in pipe performance. So, I don't think you're losing anything going with a small builder.

Did that help? Or, did I just drift off and wax poetic about what I wanted to say?

Jon


Jon

[Needs Help]

Did that help? Or, did I just drift off and wax poetic about what I wanted to say?

Jon
It was good reading in any case.

[dekindy]

The same way that any brand loyalty is established: quality, craftmanship, service, and publicity and a little luck.

I am a recent Serotta buyer having purchased my first one in 2006. I had no particular brand loyalty and the Fierte was the only steel bike that my favorite LBS represented and had inventory that I could ride. Good reviews, especially getting honorable mention and then rated number one in the plush road bike category was another factor in my purchase decision and their extensive website and forum.

The ds rear dropout cracked on my new Legend and Serotta and my LBS was kind enough to push it to the head of the line and get it repaired in less than 3 weeks so that I could have it back for the Ride Across INdiana. That kind of service is hard to find and Serotta fixed it under warranty.

[Volant]

The name on the down tube....and what Stackie said.

[Kirk007]

ATMO: Builders have different philosophies and views, and are known for certain characteristics. Since I own 2 Kirks, I'm most comfortable speaking of what for me, makes a Kirk a Kirk. Start with Dave. When you begin the discussion of a frame you begin a process of articulating what you are looking for and having that processed by a skilled artisan, who has his own views on things like the particular tubing that is most suited for you, and the particular geometry etc. So the design of the bike is part of what makes a Kirk a Kirk or a Serotta a Serotta. Form and function may also differ. Many people refer to Dave's terraplane seat stays as what defines a Kirk as a Kirk - a signature if you will. Look at Dario Pegoretti's use of only round tubesets and his tig welding and his extended headsets on larger frames - all very much part of what makes a Peg a Peg. And aesethetics: Compare a Kirk, lugged or not they have very clean lines, to a bike with really fancy lugs like some of Brian Baylis' work. Very different . Even paint: Sach's signature series, particularly the red one; Pegoretti's love 'em or hate 'em paint; Landshark's like, love or really think they're hideous.

The beauty of the process is you get to discover, if you don't already know, what it is that most moves you about the bike that you desire; you get to check out all of these builders who do things similarly but different. You ultimately build a relationship that results in a one of a kind bike - yours. Once you go through the process you will understand what makes a particular bike what it is.

[Charles M]

What makes a Serotta a Serotta? Or a Steelman a Steelman?


The owner as much as the Builder...

[Ti Designs]

I think that someone said it in regards to Richard Sachs. You are buying the experience and a part of him.


He must be running low on body parts by now...

There are those who will say that a builder puts a little of their soul into each frame they make. Too bad James Brown never made bikes... None of my bikes have ever come with soul or any body parts, my bikes are just bikes. What makes a Serotta a Serotta, or any small builder's bike special is the communication and design process. When you buy a Trek you get the same bike that everyone else gets - that's called quality control. When you order a bike from a small builder you start by communicating what exactly it is that you want in this bike. They get a feel for you, you get a feel for them, it the relationship works both ways the bike turns into something special.

My Serotta has no soul, nor did it require any of Ben's blood. It was blessed with crushed oreo cookies before I built it (hey, we all have our traditions...) but it's really just a bike. That said, it's my home on the road. There's a trust between myself and that Serotta that doesn't get questioned when I ride. One would think that diving into that last corner before a sprint at 35MPH on an 18 pound machine would be a cause for concern, but I somehow fail to think of these things as they happen - it's my bike, it's always gotten me there before, why should this time be different? My Serotta was a copy of the geometry of my Seven which was a copy of my Peter Mooney(s). In the design process Kelly Bedford asked me 4 times if I was sure that was what I wanted - that stiff and that steep??? Yeh Kelly, that was exactly what I wanted, I wouldn't change a thing.

[Steelhead]

Maybe he nicked himself as he was building my frame and a little of his blood trickled into the down tube.

Thats scary. ;) :)

[Peter P.]

They're ALL craftsmen; it's what type of craft appeals or sings to you. Some people like Brent Steelman's welds; welds so smooth and tiny they look like fillet brazing.

Or Sacha White's Vanillas; his frames always seem to incorporate features that hardly make them "plain vanilla.

In Richard Sachs' case, I think it's his marketing. His philosophy, in print on his web site, gives you the impression he knows something about geometry and construction that other framebuilders don't.

For Serotta, it's their history of making Tour de France stage winning frames, as well as all the domestic victories of teams they sponsored.

In today's world, I think it's essential to have a web presence, and that presence can make the smallest, least experienced builder seem much more than they really are. A well designed web site CAN have wide ranging appeal.

And NEVER underestimate the appearance of a finished frame. I think it's imperative to have a logo and graphics that are appealing. It's the cover that gets you in the door.

Serotta has changed their geometries so many times during the years that I don't think, at least to long time Serotta fans, it's a primary draw to the name.

Dave Kirk mentions his Terraplane seatstays and preference for higher than average trail figures on his bikes so yes, he has a geometry you might call signature and that could be his appeal.

If you did enough snooping around you'd see Richard Sachs has a geometry he uses which is outside the norm so in order to get it you have to order one of his frames.

Vanilla or Steelman aren't known for building bikes with some special ride quality, but the end product has an overall visual impact which makes for their attractiveness. If you know enough about frame geometry and design you could go to countless other framebuilders and get the same ride qualities as the respected names you mentioned, just at a lower price with quicker delivery but without the cachet. You pay extra for the comfort of a well respected name.

[roguedog]

Wow, guys. These are awesome responses and exactly what I was looking for..

Something ethereal and "poetic" but with a bit of the pragmatic of what to look for in a frame or what's in a frame for you ...

Keep 'em coming...