a little closed minded I would say

[bironi]

Pete,

I understand why someone would question the wisdom of those who choose to ride without a helmet, I don't understand why the topic is off limits. I'm sure those who choose not to wear helmets can state their own reasons. Just seems you were way too fast on the trigger finger.

Thanks,
Byron :beer:

[Ahneida Ride]

It's really about individual liberty.

Next will be the PC food patrol telling me how many fries I can eat. :crap:

[scottcw2]

Or telling what topics you can and can't post about. Ironic, eh?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . whether you asked for it or not.

dbrk announces SIX months in advance that he is having this event. He makes it clear that this event is for anyone who wants to attend, that no one is compelled to attend, and that we are guests in his home and his community. There is no registration fee, no registration deadline, and no required waiver signature. The event is not affiliated with any cycling regulatory body, commission, organization, or club. dbrk makes it clear we are his guests and the only rule is to take personal responsibility for our own behavior. Additionally, the only NY state law requiring helmet use for cyclists mandates usage by children under 14 years of age. No such riders were present on any of these rides.

Legally there was no requirement for anyone to wear a helmet on any of these rides. But this goes beyond that. The OP phrased his original comment, IMHO, in a way that clearly implied criticism of both the riders who chose not to wear helmets and our host for not somehow forcing them to do so. Maybe I'm too emotionally close to this because I consider dbrk to my friend, but I have seen what kind of hospitality and what kind of integrity dbrk displays in hosting this event in the first place and putting so much work into doing his very best to make sure everyone had a wonderful time.

I see any effort after the fact, intentional or otherwise, to detract from the caring effort he put into this event on behalf of all his friends to simply be over the top, beyond the pale, or whatever you want to call it. The OP was out of line. I agree with Pete's decision to lock the thread before it descended into the slimy depths of debate on cycling political correctness . . .

So sue me . . . :butt:

BBD

[Bruce K]

I think it was a good pre-emptive strike on Pete's part.

It was a little testy to start with and it had great potential to get real personal real fast.

Also, it's a subject that's been beaten to death.

How 'bout that Phinney kid, huh?

BK

[Blue Jays]

I was in heaven with the deliciously spicy vegetarian Indian menu and opted for a helmet for the rides.
Both decisions were made by me. BBD captured the essence perfectly above.

[bironi]

Sure the topic may have been run into the ground over and over, but I maintain that some are just a little too invested in defending those that need no outside help. Who is more adept at stating their own views than DBRK? Does Pete shut down threads about stem length because of too much repetition?

[Sandy]

I just read the other thread and bironi's comments on this thread. I was not at the Ramble, although I really wanted to go. I consider dbrk a friend even though I have never met him. From what I have read on forum posts and also from conversations that I have had with some who attended, it is obvious that dbrk was an amazingly gracious, warm, friendly, and most caring host who genuinely was concerned about all who attended. The event was a tremendous success as I understand it, and all who attended seemed to genuinely enjoy the event and to be genuinely impressed by dbrk the person. There are two stickys on the Ramble.

However, I don't read the OP on the closed thread as being an attack on dbrk or others but a real surprise that some of those participating would choose to ride without helmets. More of a helmet thread and not a take something away from dbrk and the Ramble. It might have evolved into an emotional helmet debate, and possibly would have been closed anyway, but the real question, I believe, is what actually motivated the closure?- Possible detraction from a stellar event? That would hardly be the case. It was enjoyed too much by all. Detraction from those who decided to ride without helmets? Hardly. Those who did, undoubtedly make their own decisons and will continue to do so. Protection of dbrk? He doesn't need it as he is very well equipped to defend his postions and probably doesn't even care what others perspectives are on useage of helmets anyway. He, as the others, make their own decisions.

I certainly don't think the reason to close the thread was because it was another repetitive hemet thread. It appeared to be closed because of some nebulous need to somehow protect the outstanding quality of the event and its most gracious host. dbrk, nor the other non-helmet users, don't need any protection and neither does the highly successful event. I found nothing at all wrong with the OP's post and I agree with bironi- premature to me.



Sandy

PS- The last 3 posts were made by BBDave, Blue Jays, and Bruce K. Some of the best thinkers and logical posters here. Interestingly, I disagree with all three. Maybe I am losing it. :rolleyes: ...or already have. :)

[Lifelover]

Pete,

I understand why someone would question the wisdom of those who choose to ride without a helmet, I don't understand why the topic is off limits. I'm sure those who choose not to wear helmets can state their own reasons. Just seems you were way too fast on the trigger finger.

Thanks,
Byron :beer:


I suspect that the topic of "Helmetless" riding is not off limits.

However, the choice to ride that way on the Ramble has always been clear, so talking about it as it DIRECTLY relates to that event will be taken too personally and only lead to ugliness.

Feel free to start another Helmet thread but try not to call out Forum members.

[goonster]

If I were to look at photos of somebody else's barbecue, which I did not attend, and then posted about it thus:

"Gosh, those people sure looked like they had a good time, but some of the burgers looked a bit rare. Don't you know that you get an e. coli infection? Isn't that a tad irresponsible? Shouldn't the host have enforced a well-done-only policy? If my kid had been there, I would have made sure his burgers had the bejeezus cooked out of them, because that is how I always eat my burgers, and anything else is reckless behavior and a threat to public safety."

. . . well, I would hope that Pete would lock that thread too. :beer:

[Samster]

Pete,

I understand why someone would question the wisdom of those who choose to ride without a helmet, I don't understand why the topic is off limits. I'm sure those who choose not to wear helmets can state their own reasons. Just seems you were way too fast on the trigger finger.

Thanks,
Byron :beer:
it's because people have a non-unique tendency to impose their beliefs on others. that's what starts wars atmo.

[H.Frank Beshear]

It was pleasure to meet and ride with some old and new friends in a setting where no one was judged by the equipment they used, the speed they could ride or the clothing they wore. Well except for the zebra skin booties, but we still love ya BBD ;) . The semi 6" off my left shoulder the week before the ramble didn't care what I had on either. Enjoy the day. Frank

[Ray]

I suspect that the topic of "Helmetless" riding is not off limits.

However, the choice to ride that way on the Ramble has always been clear, so talking about it as it DIRECTLY relates to that event will be taken too personally and only lead to ugliness.

Feel free to start another Helmet thread but try not to call out Forum members.
Whether locked or not, I think helmetless riding threads get to be a waste of time pretty quickly. We've had them for YEARS all over the various bike sites on the internet and they're worse than Campy/Shimano threads. At least those are sometimes funny and the equipment DOES change over time. But the issues in helmet vs no helmet threads haven't and won't change in 1,000 years, there's no resolution or gray area, and they just turn into shout-fests. I wouldn't argue to ban 'em because I'm not into banning stuff just because *I* think its a waste of time. But i think they're a waste of time.

FWIW, my last word on the subject is that I always wear a helmet on "real" rides, but usually don't when I'm just riding down to the store for milk or something. I know I could get just as killed on those little rides, but I think motorists treat you better when you just look like a guy on a bike going to the store than when you're all decked out in riding gear looking like a "cyclist". So I think there are tradeoffs. And when my kids were little and I rode with them, I always made them wear helmets and I always wore one while riding with them to set the example. Feel free to judge me on any of this and feel free to keep it to yourselves.

Thanks,

-Ray

[William]

If I were to look at photos of somebody else's barbecue, which I did not attend, and then posted about it thus:

"Gosh, those people sure looked like they had a good time, but some of the burgers looked a bit rare. Don't you know that you get an e. coli infection? Isn't that a tad irresponsible? Shouldn't the host have enforced a well-done-only policy? If my kid had been there, I would have made sure his burgers had the bejeezus cooked out of them, because that is how I always eat my burgers, and anything else is reckless behavior and a threat to public safety."

. . . well, I would hope that Pete would lock that thread too. :beer:


HEY!! ARE YOU QUESTIONING HAN'S COOKING AT THE TRIPLE R??? :butt: :butt:

PETE!! LOCK IT UP NOW!!!! :fight:



William ;) :D

[Len J]

Whether locked or not, I think helmetless riding threads get to be a waste of time pretty quickly. We've had them for YEARS all over the various bike sites on the internet and they're worse than Campy/Shimano threads. At least those are sometimes funny and the equipment DOES change over time. But the issues in helmet vs no helmet threads haven't and won't change in 1,000 years, there's no resolution or gray area, and they just turn into shout-fests. I wouldn't argue to ban 'em because I'm not into banning stuff just because *I* think its a waste of time. But i think they're a waste of time.

FWIW, my last word on the subject is that I always wear a helmet on "real" rides, but usually don't when I'm just riding down to the store for milk or something. I know I could get just as killed on those little rides, but I think motorists treat you better when you just look like a guy on a bike going to the store than when you're all decked out in riding gear looking like a "cyclist". So I think there are tradeoffs. And when my kids were little and I rode with them, I always made them wear helmets and I always wore one while riding with them to set the example. Feel free to judge me on any of this and feel free to keep it to yourselves.

Thanks,

-Ray

If the original post was about riders on any other ride but DBRK's, it wouldn't have been locked. Let's face facts here.

I actually had the same reaction when I looked at the pictures...surprise that anyone would ride in a group ride where they didn't know everyone, without a helmet. No judgement, just surprise.

So I agree with Sandy and I also agree with Ray........helmet usage posts denigrate into emotional threads. (Kinda like a global warming thread, or a religion thread). but that one hadn't denigrated, in fact, I thought people were being pretty reasonable in that one.

I'm a Pete fan, always have been, but IMO, lock-down was a little too quick on the draw.

Preemptive lock-down is pretty ironic to me in light of the original topic of forced helmet use vs freedom of choice.

In the end, the fact that we don't have a thread to debate the merits of helmet use is not a big loss for me.....YMMV

Len

[BumbleBeeDave]

It was pleasure to meet and ride with some old and new friends in a setting where no one was judged by the equipment they used, the speed they could ride or the clothing they wore. Well except for the zebra skin booties, but we still love ya BBD ;) . The semi 6" off my left shoulder the week before the ramble didn't care what I had on either. Enjoy the day. Frank

It was the only bootie I got the whole weekend! :rolleyes:

As for helmet use threads, I agree. Just like debates about abortion or politics in most cases. Neither side is ever going to convince the other, so why waste all the time and energy?

I just took exception to this particular thread because the OP seemed to strongly imply to me that dbrk should have made some rule about it and then imposed it on the rest of us. It seemed to make it personal. That got me going.

BBD

[FMS_rider]

In all honesty I did not even notice that there were helmet-less riders at the Ramble, perhaps because I rode for several decades before there was anything approaching a usable hard-shell helmet.

BBDave stated virtually my entire opinion on this one very much more eloquently than I ever could have (post #4), so I will refrain from my usual excess verbiage. I just want to add one more deeply heart-felt thanks to dbrk.

Lew

[Ahneida Ride]

At the end of Sunday's ride, as I made the turn into Dbrk's driveway.
Tom yelled out, "Watch that car!" A dark blue car was coming up the
road and I did not see it. I was not paying attention. I was exhausted.

Tom did me a big favor. God Bless you Tom !!!!!!

I need to ride smarter .... not helmetier.

Ps. I always wear a Bell Metro Helmet.

Now, it could be argured that the endurance and savy of a far more
experienced rider then myself is also a significant saftey asset, and
that I should not be riding since I do not possess that skill set.

[Samster]

[snipped]helmetier
naw!* bad bad english on you Ahneida. :rolleyes:

*=not a word.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I need to ride smarter .... not helmetier.

You just need to practice a more careful strateegery when you ride, to quote a famous Presidential elocutionist. :rolleyes: ;)

BBD

[Louis]

in a setting where no one was judged by the equipment they used, the speed they could ride or the clothing they wore.

Hi Frank,

Oh, if only this were true.

Call me superficial, call me shallow, call me judgmental, but I think cyclists of the types that hang out here and across the hall probably have to ride together 10+ years until they can reach this level of acceptance.

I was not at the ramble, but if I know cyclists, I know that many tend to be competitive on a number of levels and unless you're team members it's fundamentally a sport of individuals (even on a team, since you still are recognized on an individual basis). Lots of comparing going on. It might not have been spoken or overt, but it was happening. (I think.)

Louis

Edit: This was in no way meant to single out dbrk or Ramble for this type of behavior. I think it would happen nearly anywhere guys and gals like us get together for a ride, even if it's just down the block to get ice cream.

[FMS_rider]

Hi Frank,

Oh, if only this were true.

Call me superficial, call me shallow, call me judgmental, but I think cyclists of the types that hang out here and across the hall probably have to ride together 10+ years until they can reach this level of acceptance.

I was not at the ramble, but if I know cyclists, I know that many tend to be competitive on a number of levels and unless you're team members it's fundamentally a sport of individuals (even on a team, since you still are recognized on an individual basis). Lots of comparing going on. It might not have been spoken or overt, but it was happening. (I think.)

Louis

Edit: This was in no way meant to single out dbrk or Ramble for this type of behavior. I think it would happen nearly anywhere guys and gals like us get together for a ride, even if it's just down the block to get ice cream.The Legend, which was the only bike I brought to the Ramble, has an 8 deg top tube slope, Shimano, non-classical shiny blue paint, curved ST carbon stays, shiny Ritchey WCS carbon stem and seatpost, a Shimano Flight Deck, large HRM and a cue clip on the handlebar, a triple, and a non-leather seatbag bulging with stuff. I wore graphic-free synthetic jerseys, my shorts were Assos, helmet was an old Limar, and gloves were Specialized with holes, and I was off the back on every hill--yet I never once felt like I was a subject of ridicule.

In fact, whenever I had fallen really far back, invariably someone who "gets it" would ask how I was doing, including both dbrk and e-Richie. One clearly tongue-in-cheek remark, something like "what do you do with all those numbers", was made by someone I don't know, which ended in laughter after a couple of silly exchanges, and that was it in terms of potentially judgmental comments.

No one is more sensitive to non-verbal insults than I am (brooding is a way of life for me), but I never once detected anything of the sort. There is even a closeup of my Legend amongst a set of real Ramble bikes in a collection of commented photos that was just posted on the V Salon, with no indication whatsoever that it was included for its "insider humor" value.

I have never felt as much as part of a large group of strangers as I did at the Ramble. I'm sorry Louis, I simply have to disagree with your opinion.

Lew

edit: I can't believe I forgot to include my drooped-nose SMP saddle in the list!

edit #2: I also can't believe I forgot to mention Too Tall's response to my falling off the back. First he dropped back and gave me a tutorial on drafting (which I had never done) "closer, closer", "now try the other side" etc. Then when I resisted his advice to start at the front and slowly drift back on hills, he grabbed my jersey and dragged me to the front. As a result of his assistance and advice I remained in contact for much of the final ride on Sunday am --drafting works! --that gave me a huge psychological boost even though I did end up far off the back on the final long hill.

edit #3: An even more glaring omission from my list than the SMP saddle: the "stealth" Italian mirror at the end of my handlebar drop.

Many, many thanks to all.

[Ahneida Ride]

Loius

Not true .. Honest ...

I am a complete dufus when it come to riding. All should now that by now.

I have been treated by the likes of Bedford, Sachs, Kirk, Curt, Dbrk,
Too Tall, Ben, Pete .... the list goes on endlessly ...as a peer.


Never once have these illuminaries treated me as a secondary class
cyclist (and Lord know they should).Their extensive knowledge base only never been used to help me grow in the sport. Never to alienate.

Richard and T**2 went out of their way to interact with me at the TdFL.

At the first TdFL, I rode with Russ. Russ was a member of the Coors
Light team. He went ballistic when the group separated from me.

Russ hung with me most of that ride. Now why would a Tour de France
guy care to ride with me?

I really felt that these dignitaries are just ecstatic that new members are
entering the sport and wish to foster and nourish a newbie's excitment.

It is precisely that I don't feel judged that I love the TdFL and all it offers.

:D ;) :p :) :beer:

[BumbleBeeDave]

I went to the Ramble and enjoyed it so much precisely because there was NO spirit of comparing or competition. It's so nice to get away from that. Yes, I went charging up some hills Saturday morning because I was feeling good. But I never for a moment though that there were not plenty of riders there who could have passed me like I was standing still any time they desired. But they didn't. I got it out of my system, waited at the top of the hill, and nobody said a word.

BBD

[Bruce K]

So YOU'RE the problem Dave.... :rolleyes:

Not hardly. :banana:

I have NEVER attended an event with folks from this forum where I have heard that any rider has been made to feel unwelcome, or unworthy of the company.

That has been one of the great strengths of this community in all its iterations and it seems to be continuing in that way. We may say some things here in discussions that get us hot under the collar, but when we get together face to face there is a real sense of cameraderie that seems to transcend differences in riding ability.

Just my take....

BK

[FMS_rider]

Loius

Not true .. Honest ...

I am a complete dufus when it come to riding. All should now that by now.

I have been treated by the likes of Bedford, Sachs, Kirk, Curt, Dbrk,
Too Tall, Ben, Pete .... the list goes on endlessly ...as a peer.


Never once have these illuminaries treated me as a secondary class
cyclist (and Lord know they should).Their extensive knowledge base only never been used to help me grow in the sport. Never to alienate.

Richard and T**2 went out of their way to interact with me at the TdFL.

At the first TdFL, I rode with Russ. Russ was a member of the Coors
Light team. He went ballistic when the group separated from me.

Russ hung with me most of that ride. Now why would a Tour de France
guy care to ride with me?

I really felt that these dignitaries are just ecstatic that new members are
entering the sport and wish to foster and nourish a newbie's excitment.

It is precisely that I don't feel judged that I love the TdFL and all it offers.

:D ;) :p :) :beer: Sorry AR, I'm not buying your argument ;) . You are one of the "big guys" with all the right equipment (no pun intended, of course). I felt privileged to have dinner with you, and you were one of the many who made this genuine "little guy" feel so welcome.

Lew

[mavic1010]

The TdFL is a great event, with great people, with no mean-spirited comments, and the best part, most of the people have never met each other prior to the event. Besides BBDave, which you can spot a mile away even if you never met him, it's hard to know who everyone is by their screen name.

As for people that haven't attended the TdFL or the Giro de Bozemen, I strongly encourage you to try it out. It's hard to believe that this crazy idea of meeting complete strangers that ride serottas should all gather in a centralized location for one weekend where there are no cars, no competition, and just getting to know each other is now on it's 7th year. It's a time where fellow riders challenge each other climbs and then wait for you on top, where people will push others up hills when they are struggling, and when fast riders are loathing in the back, cuz, they are there to meet and chat, not hammer and drop. There are no egos..it's amazing how everyone gets along when we remove ourselves behind a computer screen.

I compare the TdFL to Tivo. Doesn't matter what I say, or how passionate I am about it. Try it, you'll be hooked and amazed.

John
Mavic1010

[bironi]

Nice conversation. I'm glad this thread was left open. No offense meant to anyone by my original post, just like to see the door left open.

Byron

[csm]

I'm gonna start riding without a helmet.

[Sandy]

I'm gonna start riding without a helmet.

I'm going to start riding with two then- one for me and one for you. :rolleyes:


Sandy

[csm]

thanks sandy! I feel guilty when I don't have it on actually.

[scottcw2]

I sincerely hope that those who choose to ride without a helmet never have occasion to regret it.

[csm]

i've been doing a bit of traveling for work around the northeast; was up in ME, NH, VT, MA and CT last week. it is amazing and scary the number of people riding motorcycles on the interstates w/o helmets.

[sloji]

I noticed when watching youtube videos of Lance the other day that he rarely wore a helmet on training rides and he has most assuredly logged thousands and thousands of miles and is still here to talk about it. Stats are cool but rarely tell the whole story and if we went by them who would marry or work hard or eat meat? 50% of marriage ends in divorce with that kind of failure rate who in their right mind would sign up for that? Hard work profits the few and not the many but from birth to old age people will work an average of 63 hours a week to provide for the comforts of a few...why do that? A vegetarian diet can save you from a heart attack and many cancers but who wants to give up their all american diet for some bland and solitary solution?

Truth is wearing a helmet is a sign of conformity to culture and the pressure to fit in is so great that folks will do most anything.

Time to put my helmet on and shave my legs and put on my lycra for a resounding club ride...enjoy!

[David Kirk]

At the risk of making some angry with me I'll tell you that I sometimes ride sans helmet. Sometimes when it's silly hot and I don't want that thing on my head and sometimes when I just don't want to wear it. I'm as close as I'm going to get to being adult and I make my choices and live with the consequences.

That said I never ride without a helmet when riding with others. It makes some folks uncomfortable to see a bare head and I respect that so I cover it up. No problem.

I feel it's a matter of personal choice and consideration toward others. We all accept a certain level of risk just getting on the bike and there are no risk free and fun activities that I know of. Balancing the risk with the fun is the hard thing to do.

dave

[scottcw2]

Truth is wearing a helmet is a sign of conformity to culture and the pressure to fit in is so great that folks will do most anything.

Speaking only for myself, wearing a helmet is a sign that I prefer the helmet to hit asphalt rather than my skull in the event of an accident. Like a previous poster stated, they don't call them "on purposes".

I have a helmet sitting 3 ft from me with a nice dent and cracks to remind me why my skull is in one piece.

[Chad Engle]

I've often considered leaving the helmet home on those "quick 10 milers" when I don't have much time and won't be going far. The other day my riding buddy and I were on just such a ride. I went left, he went right, just enough tire overlap to slam him on his side. I'm convinced they're worth the trouble but respect your right to feel otherwise. :beer:

[fiamme red]

At the risk of making some angry with me I'll tell you that I sometimes ride sans helmet. Sometimes when it's silly hot and I don't want that thing on my head and sometimes when I just don't want to wear it. I'm as close as I'm going to get to being adult and I make my choices and live with the consequences.

That said I never ride without a helmet when riding with others. It makes some folks uncomfortable to see a bare head and I respect that so I cover it up. No problem.

I feel it's a matter of personal choice and consideration toward others. We all accept a certain level of risk just getting on the bike and there are no risk free and fun activities that I know of. Balancing the risk with the fun is the hard thing to do.

daveDave, I do the same. I've come to realize that many people feel uneasy if you ride in their group without a helmet. They consider you a reckless rider, who would put the group into danger as well as yourself. I don't like to offend people or make them feel uncomfortable, so I always wear a helmet on group rides.

When riding alone, I have rules about when to wear a helmet. On a long, fast solo ride, I'll wear a helmet. But most of the times that I take my bicycle out the door, it's in the city, at slower speeds and for shorter distances (i.e., under 15 miles round-trip), and then I'm almost always without a helmet on my head.

[sloji]

We all have both a life wish and a death wish and this is in part what makes humans a great species. We actually invite chaos and without that adventure we wither and die. I think it was Alan Watts who called it "irreducible rascality" and whether it's wearing a helmet or amassing a fortune people engineer risk into their lives both consciously and unconsciously and then try to manage that risk.

Cars are the ultimate in creating risk. We could manage this by creating speed limits of no more than 25 mph and cars that are surrounded like bumper cars with rubber and airbags inside to alleviate the near certain death that we now tolerate but it's more important to go fast, to get somewhere...anywhere and find that next "high." The car is an exercise in fashion and culture as much as power and profit and the chances of you dying are much greater than on a bike...even without a helmet.

Oh, I walk to work and don't wear a helmet even though my chances of getting hit as a pedestrian are just as great as on my bike...and I almost always wear a helmet, almost.

[fiamme red]

There's a widespread belief that wearing a helmet is the most essential part of bicycle safety. It's what Ryan Hagen (http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/18/will-bicycling-to-work-get-you-killed/?scp=1&sq=styrofoam%20talisman&st=cse) calls the "Cult of the Styrofoam Talisman." If a cyclist is run over by a Mack truck, the newspapers will certainly note whether the cyclist was wearing a helmet, as if that could have saved him.

But I do think it's true that, in case of impact, it's better to have a layer of styrofoam between your head and a hard object. I cracked a helmet a few months ago when I was hit by a car, and was very glad that I was wearing it. The side of my head hit the ground hard, and I sustained a bad ear laceration, but there was no concussion.

[Pete Serotta]

The forum for me, is always a learning process. It was my view that the thread was going to head "down hill" fast - for helmets are a very passionate subject. (and that is was going to get very personal)

While I always wear one, I respect others right to not wear one. It is an option that we all have and I am thankful for that. (Seeing states pass laws that make helmets optional on a motorcycle is the one that gets me - but again it is very personal.)

As mentioned, I appreciate and learn from each thread. While I still would have closed the thread just as fast, if I had it to do over again - I would have given more information as to why. (It was not meant as censoring for I wear a helmet and support them).

As someone had mentioned "individuals can defend themselves" - but that is exactly the case in point - They should not have to defend anything to others (especially since the others had the option of not riding, not attending, or just ignoring..)

No matter who the person is/was - they should not have to defend - that is getting personal at the least / BTW - Bironi, it was not you that did this.

Again, I thank folks like Len, Climb, and all the others that call me on things.....I learn from them - And that is what life is all aboutl

PETE


Nice conversation. I'm glad this thread was left open. No offense meant to anyone by my original post, just like to see the door left open.

Byron

[benb]

There's a widespread belief that wearing a helmet is the most essential part of bicycle safety. It's what Ryan Hagen (http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/18/will-bicycling-to-work-get-you-killed/?scp=1&sq=styrofoam%20talisman&st=cse) calls the "Cult of the Styrofoam Talisman." If a cyclist is run over by a Mack truck, the newspapers will certainly note whether the cyclist was wearing a helmet, as if that could have saved him.


There was a story all over the internet last year about a cyclist whose head WAS run over by a van.. and his helmet did save him.

I have seen helmeted motorcycle racers have their heads run over more then once and get up unharmed...

Helmets work.. this debate is stupid and will likely end as the last generation of cyclists to grow up without helmets grows old. I don't recall ever going on a ride or event where helmets were not required, and I can't ever remember anyone complaining.

Do I wear my helmet to ride around the parking lot to test out a fix to the bike? Not always.. would I ride with anyone else without one.. no. No way I would pick a ride with a bunch of forum strangers to suddenly try out riding unhelmeted in a pack.

This pretty much cuts me out of ever wanting to attend any Serotta event if this is standard practice to allow no helmets in a group ride that obviously must have a huge range of rider skills and next to no familiarity with each other.

[csm]

I read the other thread and am not certain what the big deal was. I find myself here less and less.

[fiamme red]

This pretty much cuts me out of ever wanting to attend any Serotta event if this is standard practice to allow no helmets in a group ride that obviously must have a huge range of rider skills and next to no familiarity with each other.As long as you're wearing a helmet, why does it matter to you if others in the group aren't? Do you really think that people are more likely to do stupid things on the bike if they're bare-headed?

[SadieKate]

If I had to stop riding with people who do stupid things even when wearing a helmet I'd have to leave my husband at home. About once every two years, he forgets some basic rule and gets too upclose and personal with the rocks on the trail.

Do I think people should wear helmets? Yes. Mostly because I hope there is less mess for me to clean up should something happen, but I realize there is no guarantee even then. Helmets don't change people's riding skills or the "***** happens" factor.

Thank goodness my stupid husband wears a helmet. :rolleyes:

[David Kirk]

I have nothing against the use of helmets whatsoever. They do of course make us safer 99.9% of the time and I doubt anyone would argue that. I certainly won't.

But to me safety is much bigger than what you wear or don't wear. To me safety is an active thing. Helmets, as good as they are, are passive safety. Active safety to me is a combination of a number of things. I see bike handling, road and riding etiquette, and awareness (the BIG ONE) as being just a few of the things that make up the majority of our safety.

How often have you been driving along about to pass a cyclist and they look over their shoulder to see what's coming and the look over causes them to veer into the road in front of you? How many times have you been on a club ride when someone directly in front of you suddenly wakes up to see something bad in the road and just grabs two big handfulls of brake making everyone behind pile into them or move out into traffic to avoid hitting the sleeper? How could these "accidents" have been avoided?

One thing that seems pretty consistent to me is the trend for us cyclist to pile on the miles and work on aerobic fitness but few of us seem to learn to be better bike handlers. These aren't ergometers, they are high speed machines that are used in traffic. Used improperly they can and will kill you. In my mind it's our responsibility as cyclists to learn how to ride well. Bike handling is a skill that takes time and practice to improve and will pay huge benefits, in so many ways in the long run. It's a safety thing in many ways. Having the awareness and handling skills to avoid an accident and to deal with riding off the shoulder or over the pothole or whatever while and not hitting the dirt yourself or causing someone else to is to me the big deal. Just the basic skill of being able to look over one's shoulder to see what's coming without moving out into the road needs to be learned and ingrained.

It feels to me like some times we think that putting on the helmet will make us immune to danger. To me a helmet is there for when a real accident happens knowing that most of the time accidents are avoidable.

Practice, practice, practice.

dave

[SadieKate]

What? You mean there is still more to learn after removing the training wheels?

[goonster]

I have seen helmeted motorcycle racers have their heads run over more then once and get up unharmed...

You wear a motorcycle helmet when riding a bicycle?

This pretty much cuts me out of ever wanting to attend any Serotta event if this is standard practice to allow no helmets in a group ride that obviously must have a huge range of rider skills and next to no familiarity with each other.

I don't get this either. :confused:

Why is a group of strangers more dangerous to you if some of them are riding sans casque?

[scottcw2]

I have nothing against the use of helmets whatsoever. They do of course make us safer 99.9% of the time and I doubt anyone would argue that. I certainly won't.

But to me safety is much bigger than what you wear or don't wear. To me safety is an active thing. Helmets, as good as they are, are passive safety. Active safety to me is a combination of a number of things. I see bike handling, road and riding etiquette, and awareness (the BIG ONE) as being just a few of the things that make up the majority of our safety.

How often have you been driving along about to pass a cyclist and they look over their shoulder to see what's coming and the look over causes them to veer into the road in front of you? How many times have you been on a club ride when someone directly in front of you suddenly wakes up to see something bad in the road and just grabs two big handfulls of brake making everyone behind pile into them or move out into traffic to avoid hitting the sleeper? How could these "accidents" have been avoided?

One thing that seems pretty consistent to me is the trend for us cyclist to pile on the miles and work on aerobic fitness but few of us seem to learn to be better bike handlers. These aren't ergometers, they are high speed machines that are used in traffic. Used improperly they can and will kill you. In my mind it's our responsibility as cyclists to learn how to ride well. Bike handling is a skill that takes time and practice to improve and will pay huge benefits, in so many ways in the long run. It's a safety thing in many ways. Having the awareness and handling skills to avoid an accident and to deal with riding off the shoulder or over the pothole or whatever while and not hitting the dirt yourself or causing someone else to is to me the big deal. Just the basic skill of being able to look over one's shoulder to see what's coming without moving out into the road needs to be learned and ingrained.

It feels to me like some times we think that putting on the helmet will make us immune to danger. To me a helmet is there for when a real accident happens knowing that most of the time accidents are avoidable.

Practice, practice, practice.

dave

+1000. A helmet is not an excuse to be careless. On the flip side, all the awareness, handling skills, etc. will not protect your skull in an impact with asphalt or rock. I get the impression that some people have the attitude "My skills and awareness are so honed that I don't need a helmet." IMHO, that is just as careless.

[sloji]

In the automotive world we spoke of active and passive safety. Active is avoiding the accident; abs brakes to stop quick enough, horsepower to get out of the way, good handling so you don't roll over, etc. Passive safety is what is built in once you get hit; roll cage, intrustion beams, seat belts, airbags, etc. Even with that discussion we enter the realm of road conditions, speed laws, and the ever present person we call the "driver" whose head is filled with anger, greed, lust, power, profit, revenge...that it's amazing and a miracle that we can drive even ten feet without an accident on the road.

Be safe, wear your helmet, go fast and beat that guy to the next light!

[rpm]

Please feel free to ride without a helmet all you want. 19 people in the U.S. will die today waiting for an organ transplant. We need all the organ donors we can get.

[benb]

A helmet is not an excuse to be careless but my experience has been the louder someone claims they are safe without a helmet, the more likely they are to have poor skills & be dangerous, and yet think they have great skill.

The guy who wears the helmet is admitting he can't control all situations. The guy who is saying he is so skilled he can avoid anything so doesn't need a helmet is the one with an outsized ego & false confidence, and likely hasn't had the experience of being in a large pack when the sh*t hits the fan or is just really dense.

Everybody has certain tendencies when they ride.. you ride with someone all the time you eventually know what to expect from that individual and gain a little safety riding with them. Riding with a bunch of people who have gathered from distant lands via the internet you lose that extra safety factor.. why forgo a helmet which is such an easy thing to do to get some of that safety factor back.

[scottcw2]

The guy who is saying he is so skilled he can avoid anything so doesn't need a helmet is the one with an outsized ego & false confidence, and likely hasn't had the experience of being in a large pack when the sh*t hits the fan or is just really dense.

This generalization is way over the top and the reason that these threads degenerate into personal attacks and eventually get locked. I suggest that you re-think such an overbroad statement.

[fiamme red]

Please feel free to ride without a helmet all you want. 19 people in the U.S. will die today waiting for an organ transplant. We need all the organ donors we can get.Right, the emergency rooms here are teeming with cyclists on life support because they were riding without helmets. :rolleyes:

Here's a website devoted to photos of people who are "future organ donors" according to you:

http://www.copenhagencyclechic.com/

[michael white]

well, I'm pretty attached to my helmet now; with age comes wisdom, I guess, or some facsimile thereof . . .

But Dave is exactly right about awareness, of course. I don't know how that can be learned.

A couple of years ago I took a nasty spill because of the following. I was riding behind friend in crosswind; tires touched, making a scraping noise; he was not paying attention, but heard a funny noise so he grabbed his brakes for a moment, then released them; I piled into his back at a good clip, almost keeping upright while trying not to bring him down too till the wheel got too crossed up and I went down quite hard anyway; he sped up after I hit the pavement, apparently as he figured out, a few clicks too late, what was happening. Then he pulled a u-turn and came back, of course. A couple of drivers who also saw it all also stopped and tried to shove their cell phones into my face as I lay writhing in the road, apparently also in their well-meaning attempts to help. I did manage to get up and ride home alone about 40 mi.

Maybe the only answer is to never draft anyone? because everyone's a dumbass? I don't know.

[BumbleBeeDave]

This generalization is way over the top and the reason that these threads degenerate into personal attacks and eventually get locked. I suggest that you re-think such an overbroad statement.

. . . Anyone who doesn't wear a helmet is an egomaniac? I strongly doubt it.

BBD

[goonster]

Please feel free to ride without a helmet all you want. 19 people in the U.S. will die today waiting for an organ transplant. We need all the organ donors we can get.

Organ Donors (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DLIzbgg1b8)

[Climb01742]

1. everyone has the right to ride with or without a helmet.

2. personally, i always wear one, because the world is full of crazy @ss drivers. all the skill in the world (which i do not possess) can't make up for a stupid driver. same reason i always wear my seatbelt. both are, to me, ahole insurance.

[johnnymossville]

I fully support the right of the rider to choose. I'm pro-choice on the matter.

[Ahneida Ride]

Prof. Kirk ..

Thanks for posting so eloquently what I could only contemplate.

--------

The real issue here is at what point does government impose upon
the individual the definition of risk?

------- and some food for though ........

Are worn tires more risky or less risky then not using a helmet?
If so .... do we mandate tire safety inspections ?
I know of one rider killed by a blow out.

------

Is not riding with a DiNotte tail light more or less risky then not using a helmet?

I know that I am safer on the road with the DiNotte Tail light.
Much safer. (except for the Pizza delivery incident). So do we mandate
bright tail lights for all bikes?

-------
Are proper brakes more important then Helmets?
Locally, two youths were killed descending a steep hill when their brakes
failed to engage. Do we have mandatory bike safety inspections?


Why focus on helmets ... Is it because they are the easiest to spot and
enforce, while perchance there exist more imperative saftey concerns?

Finally ... I have incorporated into my Legend, every safety feature I can
envision. I also wear a Bell Metro Helmet, with a round back. The type
recommended by many sources.

Ultimately, it is my sense of the road and Divine Providence that will
keep me safe.

I still have a lot to learn.

Again, Thanks Prof. Kirk .... :beer:

[sloji]

Even with my helmet it's risky business...there's a lot of heavy metal out there. Want safety go to spin class...

[sc53]

Ahneida--you are so right! There are so many aspects of bike safety besides wearing a helmet. Just reading this forum over the years has taught me the dangers of:
squirrels (william and many others)
Starbucks napkin (somebody riding in San Fran)
unexpected pothole (Too Tall, saved by a timely bunny hop)
broken spoke jamming rear wheel (several)
getting finger caught in front wheel while reaching down to fiddle with cyclocomputer mount on fork (weisan)
crankarm breaking apart (Ray and palincss)
ICE on bike path (ME)
These are all things that can confound even the safest, best helmeted rider. Not to mention the careless drivers and other riders in front of, beside and behind you. I try to give myself lots of elbow room on group rides, I don't draft, and I look around all the time to see what the other riders near me are doing--in case it's veering over into my lane of travel. This CAN make group rides kind of stressful. Everything carries a risk, and I agree wearing a helmet compensates for a few of the risks associated with riding a bike.

[flydhest]

This is an interesting view point, but my experience is the opposite. I find those that tend to be lacking in skills, those that can barely hold a line (and are therefore often contributory to packs having the feces encounter a ventilator) are those who are most vociferous about helmets being indispensable and those that cast aspersions on the intelligence or wisdom of people who don't wear helmets.



A helmet is not an excuse to be careless but my experience has been the louder someone claims they are safe without a helmet, the more likely they are to have poor skills & be dangerous, and yet think they have great skill.

The guy who wears the helmet is admitting he can't control all situations. The guy who is saying he is so skilled he can avoid anything so doesn't need a helmet is the one with an outsized ego & false confidence, and likely hasn't had the experience of being in a large pack when the sh*t hits the fan or is just really dense.

Everybody has certain tendencies when they ride.. you ride with someone all the time you eventually know what to expect from that individual and gain a little safety riding with them. Riding with a bunch of people who have gathered from distant lands via the internet you lose that extra safety factor.. why forgo a helmet which is such an easy thing to do to get some of that safety factor back.

[Fixed]

bro i like the cat who wears a helmet but smokes 4 packs a day and call me dumb
cheers

[Ahneida Ride]

Ahneida--you are so right! There are so many aspects of bike safety besides wearing a helmet. Just reading this forum over the years has taught me the dangers of:
squirrels (william and many others)
Starbucks napkin (somebody riding in San Fran)
unexpected pothole (Too Tall, saved by a timely bunny hop)
broken spoke jamming rear wheel (several)
getting finger caught in front wheel while reaching down to fiddle with cyclocomputer mount on fork (weisan)
crankarm breaking apart (Ray and palincss)
ICE on bike path (ME)


Add Pizza Delivery. Having a half eaten large pie whipped outa a pickup by
the usual teenage suspects. Happened just below the Serotta Factory.

That sure did make a loud noise when it hit the ground. SPLAT ...
Do helmets add or detract from Pizza Delivery? :p

And when I reported it to the Forum here, they wanted to know if it had
Anchovies and whether or not I got a free Coke with it?
My good Serotta Pals ..... ;) :banana:

[mschol17]

The roads were great.
There were few cars.
Everyone was riding relaxed and had plenty of space around them.
The weather was perfect.

And I was more worried about crashing one of dbrk's bikes than I was about hitting my head.

No big deal. I'm sorry if I offended anyone or made my fellow riders nervous.

[tomwd3]

I don't care if you wear a helmet or not. That's your choice.
I will say that in the 3 crashes I've had in the last 2 years, it didn't do me a damn bit of good. Smack on the chin. I guess I need to "tuck".
That being said, I ride w/my helmet. Mostly because I have kids, and if I get run over, and don't make it, I don't want my family to have to wonder if I would have been saved by it.

I should look into padded chinstraps.