Frame builder promotion

[News Man]

So it seems pretty clear that BBDave and others are enthusiastically promoting K Bedford frames.

Obviously members promote frame builders in subtle ways by mentioning them in posts or posting pictures in the custom gallery. What is going on with K Bedford frames is not subtle and I dare say not effective.

Good advertising doesn't beat you over the head, subtlety counts.

Everything I have seen indicates that these K Bedford frames are excellence personified. They will speak for themselves if you let them. Post pictures, ride reviews etc., but don't beg for orders. Its unseemly.

And if Kelly still works for Serotta, but this is a private enterprise and is ok because Serotta doesn't make lugged frames anymore, then start posting stickies for other lugged frame builders as well.

Yes, I get the fact that Kelly is part of the Serotta family and this site is owned and operated by Serotta, but just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

[dave thompson]

I see no problems here. Kelly is a long-time, well respected member of the Serotta community, has designed/built some historic American bikes (TdF) and has mentored notable folks (Dave Kirk and Dave Wages are the ones that I know of) who have gone on and hung out their own frame builder shingles. People here are excited to see the new K. Bedford frames and want to see pics and hear about them. The same machinations happened when Dave Kirk started putting his name on some very nice stuff 5 years ago. I know, I was there.

As you pointed out, it's Serotta's playground and they, as well as the vast majority of 'us', think it's dandy to drool on Kelly's frames.

[dauwhe]

As you pointed out, it's Serotta's playground and they, as well as the vast majority of 'us', think it's dandy to drool on Kelly's frames.

+1.

Dave (another one!)

[johnnymossville]

I see nothing wrong at all with the current talk around the K. Bedford bikes. I'm excited about his work myself, and I'm not even in the market for a frame at the moment. I just appreciate a beautiful thing when I see it. The frame from what I've seen looks fantastic and deserves it's 15 minutes (At Least) of fame. I say that in a tongue in cheek way since K. Bedford has obviously been around a long time to get to this point.

I hope he gets more orders than he can fill for his bikes.

[Fixed]

troll
imho
cheers

[News Man]

Don't really disagree with the Serotta playground analysis, the more important point, I think, is this is not effective advertising. It is too blatant and desperate.

I also agree that Kelly absolutely has the track record and qualifications that put him in the upper echelon.

I guess the reason I commented was that when I first learned that Kelly was going to start building lugged frames, I was excited about getting in line. Now, not so much.

And Fixed, I think I know where you are coming from as I pointed out that your "Last Breath" post was pure fiction, but hey it was a good story.

[Pete Serotta]

We are all welcome to our opinions....

it is out of respect for 20 years of work and dedication to SEROTTA is why it was "stuck" at the top and also that others (including me) are high on his frames.

In one way it is advertising and in another it is a sign of endearment and respect for the man and his abilities.

No one said anything when certain other US and European builders were "sung" for the rafters..... It is a bike forum and there are some wonderful products out there.

Life is good..

And by the way it is too bad you did not get in line for a frame - but others thanks you :D


Don't really disagree with the Serotta playground analysis, the more important point, I think, is this is not effective advertising. It is too blatant and desperate.

I also agree that Kelly absolutely has the track record and qualifications that put him in the upper echelon.

I guess the reason I commented was that when I first learned that Kelly was going to start building lugged frames, I was excited about getting in line. Now, not so much.

and where does FIXED come into this....?? It is only I and SMILEY that should be getting your wrath. (not even Kelly)/

Sorry we upset you with it...Really.... Refreshments will be on me. PETE

And Fixed, I think I know where you are coming from as I pointed out that your "Last Breath" post was pure fiction, but hey it was a good story.

[William]

We are all welcome to our opinions....

it is out of respect for 20 years of work and dedication to SEROTTA is why it was "stuck" at the top and also that others (including me) are high on his frames.

In one way it is advertising and in another it is a sign of endearment and respect for the man and his abilities.

No one said anything when certain other US and European builders were "sung" for the rafters..... It is a bike forum and there are some wonderful products out there.

Life is good..

And by the way it is too bad you did not get in line for a frame - but others thanks you :D

Not entirely true. But Kelley does make some nice bling.



William

[Pete Serotta]

William - You are correct... I was speaking - since I have been the moderator along with BB and Bruce K. Sorry....

I love Douglas (DBRK) Tournesel and even got a few "questioning emails" when I posted his bikes and name... (Oh well I am not too politically correct at times..... )

Yes I have or had a few other wonderful bikes (or they are on my LUST list = Bedford,Goodrich,Hampsten,Kirk, Sachs, Spectrum,Wiegle, )
:D :D
None of

Not entirely true. But Kelley does make some nice bling.



William

[markie]

I read this twice and thought, "what a weird thread".

The frames look fantastic and have great pedigree, anyone in their right mind who had one would want to talk about it and show pictures. I second the vote for troll.

Personally it made me visit Kelly's website again to confirm that I still cannot afford one. :)

[csm]

93 posts and he's a troll? or has the definition of troll changed? sounded like he was agreeing with the old new policy and asking a question. one, I might add, that I was wondering too.
I do like those frames. I like looking at Kirk frames. and Sachs.

[markie]

I am pretty sure a poster can be a troll with any number of posts.

Out of curiosity I looked at some of his recent posts and some might be considered contradictory. Which is fine by me as I am rather disagreeable myself. :)

[News Man]

I am really not saying anything negative here. To recap:
--------------------------------------------------
I am not a troll, I have visited this website on and off for more than a year. I have frames from most of the master builders that frequent or used to frequent here. I love lugged steel frames.

No question Kelly is a master builder and his frames look great.

Serotta and its designates make the rules.
---------------------------------------------------

Do those car commercials where some guy screams at you to come on down because time is running out or mortgage refi's where interest rates have never been this low, hurry! speak to you?

They don't to most.

I would humbly suggest that instead of the hype, Kelly should occasionally post here like the other builders did and Kelly's promoters should turn it down just a notch.

[rePhil]

troll
imho
cheers

Who?

[markie]

News Man,

I think everyone is just excited about the new frames and getting a "new" master builders first few frames. I am sure it will not be like this forever.

[gdw]

I'll take blatant promotion any day over the stealth marketing we had in the past.

[News Man]

News Man,

I think everyone is just excited about the new frames and getting a "new" master builders first few frames. I am sure it will not be like this forever.

I would never want to take away from anyone's excitement. I have been there, its a great feeling. The lines get blurred a bit when the moderators (who I think do a great job in general) are the customers, but I know Pete has raved about other builders bikes as well. It just seems that lately there has been a blitz of "marketing" for Kelly on this site.

[News Man]

I'll take blatant promotion any day over the stealth marketing we had in the past.


Why? At least some of the "stealth marketers" added value to this site with their knowledge. Some not so much.

[gdw]

Enough. We are aware of your opinion and further posts are just trolling.

[Pete Serotta]

News Man is not a Troll..... I can vouch for that...

Secondly is you can get me the HAMPSTEN ANNIVERSARY PEGO Bike - I will post everyday about it (I love that bike)..... I will also take a Tournesel is 58cm....... If all else fails - I will take that lovely orange hampsten that Steve was on at the bike camp.

Kelly is just starting to deliver bikes and I think that is why so much activity from Smiley and I (as well as Kelly is to get me a case of RED at the RAMBLE :beer: )

Lets not fight........I also wish Steve, Too Tall, Richard, and Mr DBRK were still actively posting.... :confused:

[News Man]

Enough. We are aware of your opinion and further posts are just trolling.

This is like the 3rd reference to troll. Define trolling in the context that it applies to this thread.

Is it having an opinion that differs from the majority?

[News Man]

News Man is not a Troll..... I can vouch for that...

Secondly is you can get me the HAMPSTEN ANNIVERSARY PEGO Bike - I will post everyday about it (I love that bike)..... I will also take a Tournesel is 58cm....... If all else fails - I will take that lovely orange hampsten that Steve was on at the bike camp.

Kelly is just starting to deliver bikes and I think that is why so much activity from Smiley and I (as well as Kelly is to get me a case of RED at the RAMBLE :beer: )

Lets not fight........I also wish Steve, Too Tall, Richard, and Mr DBRK were still actively posting.... :confused:

I appreciate that Pete. I am planning to be at the Ramble as well.

[Erik.Lazdins]

BB Dave took some great pics of a great looking bike that we are all eager to see since Kelly is linked to many many things Serotta - there is no longer a lugged Serotta - there was some really cool use of fishing line

There is enough good to go around - I think its great that Kelly gets a Kelly-specific post, I think its great that we see BB-Daves pics - I think its great that other builders participate here
There is enough good to go around

I don't think that Serotta directly loses a sale as a result of this - I think it helps Serotta and all who participate. Hey we need common courtesy but I believe in letting the good spirit carry this forum.

I hope I have not overstepped any bounds here

best,
Erik

[Chris]

My only comment is that if a few posts on here deter you from buying a frame from a guy like Kelly, well that makes me wonder about how motivated you were to have one and effectively just shortens the line...

[Pete Serotta]

Sharing respect and opinions is GOOD!!!! :D :D

The RAMBLE is the "classic" example of this.......Hope to see lots of you there... Tom Brynes will be the guy with Touresel and I will be the guy with the SEROTTA. (SMiley will be the guy with my Bedford!!!! :D :rolleyes:


BB Dave took some great pics of a great looking bike that we are all eager to see since Kelly is linked to many many things Serotta - there is no longer a lugged Serotta - there was some really cool use of fishing line

There is enough good to go around - I think its great that Kelly gets a Kelly-specific post, I think its great that we see BB-Daves pics - I think its great that other builders participate here
There is enough good to go around

I don't think that Serotta directly loses a sale as a result of this - I think it helps Serotta and all who participate. Hey we need common courtesy but I believe in letting the good spirit carry this forum.

I hope I have not overstepped any bounds here

best,
Erik

[Smiley]

We all want to see Sir Kelly Bedford as they call him at Serotta do really really well. Not just do well. If you met the man and worked with the man like I have, you would will sing his praises from the highest rafters for all to hear. Nuthin wrong with the other quality guys out there just Kelly needs some catchin up to do since the rest have had a head start in this promo dept. Drank the kool aid and dawned the purple Nike's and will bring some to the Ramble for you to try :).

Its not like Pete and I bought Kelly a 30 second Super Bowl commercial or something... wait a second maybe not such a bad idea. :banana:

now that's really pimping if you know what I mean.

[93legendti]

It would be cool if Kelly started to post here.

[Ginger]

It would be cool if Kelly started to post here.

I think that's exactly it.

[BumpyintheBurgh]

News Man brings up a valid point. It's his opinion, you don't have to agree. So why call him a troll? Is someone's opinion who has been a member of the forum since 2006 with 98 posts, any more or less respected or valued than someone who has been a member since 2005 with over 11,000 posts. Do we have a hierarchy on this forum?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . Please be nice to him. He raises a valid question. Sometimes the most valid questions are also the ones that make the people concerned the most uncomfortable. That's what news men are supposed to do.

If I came on too strong in my thread, then I offer my apologies.

I met Kelly. He's a very nice guy.

I saw the frame and it's beautiful.

I saw the pics of Smiley's frame in progress and it's beautiful, too.

I like Kelly. I like the bike. I said so. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

NewsMan, let's get together at the Ramble and have a beer!

BBD

[Smiley]

[QUOTE=BumbleBeeDave
NewsMan, let's get together at the Ramble and have a beer!

BBD[/QUOTE]

Dave, News Man will meet Kelly at the Ramble and I will buy the Kool Aid, oh yeah I'll have the purple Nikes on if u forgot what I looked like and so will Pete :)

[Louis]

My opinion on this matter is worth exactly what you've paid for it, but just the same, here it is:

I think there is a kernel of truth to NM's point. Kelly is in a bit of an awkward situation. On one hand he is an important part of the Serotta organization, and has been for a very long time, on the other he is a competitor. Clearly not a direct competitor, since he has a much smaller, different niche, but a competitor just the same. Consequently, the high-visibility of the promotion of his frames strikes me as somewhat off-key. I don't think it's a big deal, and doubt that it will last at this level, but I did notice it and was not surprised to read News Man's post.

Louis

[fierte_poser]

Alright, here comes another $.02 worth...

I can see where NM is coming from.

What is a bit strange to me is that Serotta_Pete is actively promoting a brand other than Serotta, both here and across the hall. I know that he doesn't post as Serotta_Pete over there, but it is all a bit awkward from this forum user's perspective.

There was a pointed effort made a while back to refocus this forum, and the active posting about Kelly's frames in combination with the lack of active posting about Serotta's frames is weird to me.

[Sandy]

My opinion on this matter is worth exactly what you've paid for it, but just the same, here it is:

I think there is a kernel of truth to NM's point. Kelly is in a bit of an awkward situation. On one hand he is an important part of the Serotta organization, and has been for a very long time, on the other he is a competitor. Clearly not a direct competitor, since he has a much smaller, different niche, but a competitor just the same. Consequently, the high-visibility of the promotion of his frames strikes me as somewhat off-key. I don't think it's a big deal, and doubt that it will last at this level, but I did notice it and was not surprised to read News Man's post.

Louis

Really don't think that one can think of Kelly Bedford as a real competitor of Serotta. I assume that almost all of his framesets weill be lugged steel or fillet brazed steel. I can't imagine Serotta ever producing either again. In addition, I would think that Kelly B might build 50 or so bikes a year. that is meaningless to Serotta. Besides, Kelly B. and Ben S. are probably very close and Ben probably wants Kelly to flourish designing and building bikes. I assume that was the case with Dave K. also.


Sandy


In addition-

I did not read News Man as being a troll at all. I just don't get that analysis made by some.

Kelly Bedford is a phenomenon. His experience in designing and building bikes and his experience with different frame materials is probably matched by very few. He does not need any overt help in selling his bikes. As soon as they are seen, there will be a wait list that will probably only get larger. I don't think Kelly B. will ever need help in selling his bikes. They will sell themselves.

[slowgoing]

I understand NM's point but also see the other side. I'm a little surprised to see Fixed calling people names, though. Not helpful.

In any event, I won't let BBD's or anyone else's overenthusiasm discourage me from putting my name on Kelly's list when I can afford to do so. BBD took some great pics of one extremely nice bike.

[david]

I'll have the purple Nikes on

the shrouds were purple, the nikes white.

jeez, is nothing sacred?

[Ti Designs]

I see no problems here. Kelly is a long-time, well respected member of the Serotta community, has designed/built some historic American bikes (TdF) and has mentored notable folks (Dave Kirk and Dave Wages are the ones that I know of) who have gone on and hung out their own frame builder shingles.


I could say the same things about myself, 'cept for the part about being respected or the part about being part of the Serotta community or anything having to do with historic bikes or mentoring. Come to think about it, we even spell our names the same 'cept for all of the letters...

So, if I started producing the worlds finest carbon and titanium kickstands, I would get my own sticky glued on top of the Serotta forum?

I'm a big fan of Kelly Bedford, as someone who's sold custom bikes for the last 15 years, I can tell you that he's been the difference between ordering a Serotta and ordering any other custom. I say let the bikes do the talking and get rid of the sticky.

[William]

I’m sure Kelly makes top notch steel frames. I’m not questioning his quality or abilities at all. But I have to side with the folks who get an uneasy feeling about making the sticky. Yes, he is from the Serotta family, as is D Kirk (I’ve had Serottas built by each of them). But DK Frameworks and Bedford cycles are not Serotta. What we have are some moderators who really dig his work and who have the ability to make stickies about him and his new business. You can rationalize it any way you like, but it is a form of marketing for KB. One of the reasons the place across the hall was formed was the subtle/not so subtle (depending on who you are and how you perceive it) accusations of marketing and using the Serotta forum to move their product. I won’t say that there wasn’t any guerilla marketing going on, but most folks PR came from enthusiastic posters just like you…only they didn’t have the power to make stickies about the builder they loved. Serotta brought the ruler down on the back of the hand of many folks for this…me included. I know it was before you had the power Pete, but for someone who has been around the forum for a while, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I will restate: I think KB does amazing work and I wish him only the best in his endeavor. I think we just have a couple enthusiastic moderators who aren’t seeing the contradiction in the situation (nothing personal against you guys :) ).


William

[Fixed]

Don't really disagree with the Serotta playground analysis, the more important point, I think, is this is not effective advertising. It is too blatant and desperate.

I also agree that Kelly absolutely has the track record and qualifications that put him in the upper echelon.

I guess the reason I commented was that when I first learned that Kelly was going to start building lugged frames, I was excited about getting in line. Now, not so much.

And Fixed, I think I know where you are coming from as I pointed out that your "Last Breath" post was pure fiction, but hey it was a good story.
bro have you beat any bike riders up lately ?
cheers

[93legendti]

If Serotta was not ok with the situation as it stands, Kelly wouldn't get the ink or the sticky. Serotta is obviously cool with it - so why is this an issue? It isn't our call.

[zap]

IMHO, this is Serotta's house and from what I understand, Kelly is a key member of the Serotta family. If enthusiastic members of the Serotta community wish to post something created by a member of the Serotta family, what is the harm.

Ditto for Dave Kirk. He is a former Serotta employee and appears to be in good standing with Ben.

I think it's great that employees and former employees (that don't directly compete with Serotta House) in good standing and are loyal to the brand and the man have the opportunity to directly or indirectly benefit from the marketing available from what many consider to be a pretty good internet forum.

Now, folks, remember, :) is like, married to Serotta. If :) bought a Bedford, you know darn well its family.

[Climb01742]

i'm with big willie on this. i think the original thread was 100% cool and legit. where a line_may_have been crossed is making the thread a sticky. giving KB props in the original thread was well earned. maybe the sticky is a bit preferential? everyone's intentions were good, so we may be in angels on a the head of a needle territory, but it's all :beer: .

[Ahneida Ride]

Both Kelly and Kirk have contributed immensely to the success of the
Serotta Brand name. These guys have done testing and design work that
we have and will never hear about.

Kelly's annual output is limited. He is not situated to be a direct competitor
either to Serotta or Kirk.

I saw Pete's bike. I got real excited. I just can help the over the top
"irrational exuberance". Sorry if I offended. ;)

[BumbleBeeDave]

I’m sure Kelly makes top notch steel frames. I’m not questioning his quality or abilities at all. But I have to side with the folks who get an uneasy feeling about making the sticky. Yes, he is from the Serotta family, as is D Kirk (I’ve had Serottas built by each of them). But DK Frameworks and Bedford cycles are not Serotta. What we have are some moderators who really dig his work and who have the ability to make stickies about him and his new business. You can rationalize it any way you like, but it is a form of marketing for KB. One of the reasons the place across the hall was formed was the subtle/not so subtle (depending on who you are and how you perceive it) accusations of marketing and using the Serotta forum to move their product. I won’t say that there wasn’t any guerilla marketing going on, but most folks PR came from enthusiastic posters just like you…only they didn’t have the power to make stickies about the builder they loved. Serotta brought the ruler down on the back of the hand of many folks for this…me included. I know it was before you had the power Pete, but for someone who has been around the forum for a while, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I will restate: I think KB does amazing work and I wish him only the best in his endeavor. I think we just have a couple enthusiastic moderators who aren’t seeing the contradiction in the situation (nothing personal against you guys :) ).


William


Pete is obviously responsive to your comments and suggestions. There is a learning curve to being a moderator and walking the fine line of satisfying everyone . . . as if he could ever do that anyway.

Kelly is a Serotta employee and my understanding directly from him is that he is now building frames himself with Ben's blessing and support and did not start doing so without asking Ben's permission and blessing.

As to the "stealth" marketing that took place in the past, I don't have knowledge that any of those folks were Serotta employees or were in any other kind of business relationship with Ben. Unless that is incorrect, then it makes the two situations entirely different. It's Ben's house. He can let in or not whoever he pleases.

I am not shilling for Serotta, Kelly, or anyone else. My own enthusiasm for Kelly's first frame build was based entirely on meeting and talking with him at length for the first time and seeing the bike up close--the workmanship coupled with the obvious quality of the JB paint. Before this I have met Kelly in passing and knew who he was, but that's it.

BBD

[William]

....I saw Pete's bike. I got real excited. I just can help the over the top
"irrational exuberance". Sorry if I offended. ;)

;)

[William]

....I am not shilling for Serotta, Kelly, or anyone else. My own enthusiasm for Kelly's first frame build was based entirely on meeting and talking with him at length for the first time and seeing the bike up close--the workmanship coupled with the obvious quality of the JB paint. Before this I have met Kelly in passing and knew who he was, but that's it.

BBD

BBDave, I was not inferring that you were. I was just pointing out that that same type of "enthusiasm", for Zank in my case and other builders for others, earned us reprimands. I was just pointing out the contradiction.

No hard feelings. :)


William

[znfdl]

Alright, here comes another $.02 worth...

I can see where NM is coming from.

What is a bit strange to me is that Serotta_Pete is actively promoting a brand other than Serotta, both here and across the hall. I know that he doesn't post as Serotta_Pete over there, but it is all a bit awkward from this forum user's perspective.

There was a pointed effort made a while back to refocus this forum, and the active posting about Kelly's frames in combination with the lack of active posting about Serotta's frames is weird to me.

Fierte: I think you are talking about a lack of consistent application of the subtle and not so subtle historical messages. T'is weird indeed......

[BumbleBeeDave]

BBDave, I was not inferring that you were. I was just pointing out that that same type of "enthusiasm", for Zank in my case and other builders for others, earned us reprimands. I was just pointing out the contradiction.

No hard feelings. :)


William


It's just that Zank was not a Serotta employee. Nor were others who were being promoted. Kelly IS a Serotta employee and it's Ben's house.

BBD

[William]

It's just that Zank was not a Serotta employee. Nor were others who were being promoted. Kelly IS a Serotta employee and it's Ben's house.

BBD

Yeah, I get that. I also get that KB Customs is not Serotta. DK Frameworks is also not Serotta. Not direct competition I’ve heard others say…neither is Zank or many of the others. I see it as preferential treatment. It is, and yes, I know it’s Ben’s house. Still leaves me with a bad taste, and hence the spin off.

If I may ask: Was the sticky posted by an exuberant moderator, or was it posted through a Serotta directive?




William

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . you would have to ask Pete. I would highly doubt it was any kind of "directive."

KB Custom IS Kelly--and Kelly is a current Serotta employee. DK Frameworks IS Dave Kirk--who left Serotta on very good terms with Ben.

Zank is NOT a current or past employee of Serotta. Sachs is NOT a current or past employee of Serotta.

Is it preferential treatment? Undoubtedly. Is it unfair? Guess it depends on your perspective.

BBD

[slowgoing]

Yeah, I get that. I also get that KB Customs is not Serotta. DK Frameworks is also not Serotta. Not direct competition I’ve heard others say…neither is Zank or many of the others. I see it as preferential treatment. It is, and yes, I know it’s Ben’s house. Still leaves me with a bad taste, and hence the spin off.

Doesn't leave a bad tase in my mouth that Serotta is promoting Kelly. He works there. They're not promoting anyone else, including Dave Kirk, to the best I can see.

[fierte_poser]

Fierte: I think you are talking about a lack of consistent application of the subtle and not so subtle historical messages. T'is weird indeed......

Actually...I am mostly trying to express my frustration at the fact that no one from _Serotta_ (including Serotta_Pete) bothers to post anything around here about the Serotta current or upcoming product lineup. Like I said in my original post, its the combination of active posting about K.Bedford customs and the lack of active posting about Serotta framesets that bugs me as a current Serotta owner.

BBDave posted some cool pics from the factory ride/tour, but why does that info (such as the MeiviciAE) trickle into the forum via that BBDave and not via 'on the payroll' Serotta_Pete? And why didn't that thread earn sticky status? :crap:

I know there are people around here who remember when Serotta_James (or was it Serotta_Andrew) would post pics of cool frames that were fresh out of the paint shop. That was subtle marketing that I would guess resulted in actual frame sales.

Serotta_James (or was it Serotta_Andrew) also gave us sneak peeks of the HSG frames when they were new to the scene.

Does Serotta not have anything worth promoting on this forum anymore?!?

The Back to the Future story of K.Bedford customs is a good, if not great, story.

I just want to know what happened to the Serotta story.

:confused:

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . and a certain contingent promptly jumped on him.

I used to date a woman who worked for the local electric/gas company. She always insisted I never tell anyone who she worked for because if she was at a party and let slip where she worked she would always end up listening to a littany of complaints about the big, mean old utility company. They were always about things she had no control over and could do nothing about and she got sick of hearing it.

Get my drift? . . . maybe not the correct explanation, but one of several possible.

Here's another possible reason . . . no one wants to post because they are not doing so in an "official" capacity. If they say something that turns out to be wrong or that the wrong people don't like then they could get in trouble. Of course, that doesn't excuse the real need for an "official" company representative. But let's face it--who wants to spend a significant portion of their already busy work day reading every post on here and trying to answer every question without getting paid any extra for it? You can probably guess the answer . . .

BBD

[rspecker]

My $0.02--this isn't the NYT, and we don't need a disclaimer at the top of every post that says "advertising".

Of course various posts on this forum are self-serving to various commercial interests. Got it. That's obvious. If Serotta wants to promote something on this web site then more power to them.

If Serotta or someone else posts fraudulent or misleading information with an intent to extract $$, then I would object to that. Or if technical information or answers to questions were false or misleading in a self-serving way, then I would object to that.

But a few posts that point out a cool bike builder? Whatever. Serotta Pete did not hide the long-time affiliation of Kelly to Serotta. Therfore there was plenty of disclosure about the "conflict of interest" to the purists and the squimish.

By the way, I do agree that Serotta isn't doing a great job of creating buzz around its own products on this Forum. Serotta seems to have lost its marketing mojo somewhat imho. They are not clearly communicating howthey are differentiated from other bikes (compare Kirk--he does a great job of this). The Serotta prices are very "artisan" ($10,000+ for a bike!), but at least for me the sprit doesn't come through like when I bought my Legend in 2001. I also don't get the various model names, and the line-up. I'm not sure who the names appeal to--I don't even know how to pronounce most of them. And the turnover isn't good. What happend to the Novo for example? So purely out of self-interest if I were Serotta I would use this Forum as a marketing tool to refine the message.

[Louis]

. . . and a certain contingent promptly jumped on him.

Not to rehash the past yet again, but some of that negative response was justified...

Nobody said PR was easy.

[Kane]

if it was anyone other than Kelly and if that posted picture of the frame wasn't so gorgeous! I met Kelly in S.F. at the SF Sept. Bike race. He's a great guy and with all his hard work a little free marketing is a very light payback. Sweet bike!!

Cheers,


Kane

[abqhudson]

If the OP does "get the fact that Kelly is part of the Serotta family and this site is owned and operated by Serotta" he/she might also get the fact that many on this forum are Serotta riders/aficionados who wish KB well - very well. What's not to understand?

BBD Thanks for the pretty pictures!

[palincss]

My $0.02--this isn't the NYT, and we don't need a disclaimer at the top of every post that says "advertising".

Of course various posts on this forum are self-serving to various commercial interests. Got it. That's obvious.

Thinking back on what I remember of a couple of years of posts, it's not at all obvious to me.

If by "self-serving to various commercial interests," you mean framebuilders themselves have been promoting their wares here, I've seen no evidence of it. The framebuilders who have posted here have been, in my opinion, anyway, most circumspect about maintaining a distinction between sharing knowledge based on their experience and promoting their work, dissing the work of anyone else, or actively seeking customers (which is how I'd interpret "serving commercial interests".

If you mean to include an enthusiastic owner waxing lyrical about their new frame, I fail to see how that's "self-serving". IMO it's not "marketing" either.

I would agree, the comments by Smiley and BBDave about the Kelly Bedford frame have not been subtle or low-key. I can understand how some might find their praise a bit heavy-handed, even off-putting. But let's bear in mind, they are not K. Bedford.

[Smiley]

I would agree, the comments by Smiley and BBDave about the Kelly Bedford frame have not been subtle or low-key. I can understand how some might find their praise a bit heavy-handed, even off-putting. But let's bear in mind, they are not K. Bedford.


When its all said and done K Bedford Frames will sell themselves. In the meantime every post to any thread accomplishes some kind of marketing for Kelly anyway.

BTW if you think I by myself can convince anybody to laid down serious ferns for a Bedford then I have some swamp land to sell you too :)

[William]

Thinking back on what I remember of a couple of years of posts, it's not at all obvious to me.

If by "self-serving to various commercial interests," you mean framebuilders themselves have been promoting their wares here, I've seen no evidence of it. The framebuilders who have posted here have been, in my opinion, anyway, most circumspect about maintaining a distinction between sharing knowledge based on their experience and promoting their work, dissing the work of anyone else, or actively seeking customers (which is how I'd interpret "serving commercial interests".

If you mean to include an enthusiastic owner waxing lyrical about their new frame, I fail to see how that's "self-serving". IMO it's not "marketing" either.

I would agree, the comments by Smiley and BBDave about the Kelly Bedford frame have not been subtle or low-key. I can understand how some might find their praise a bit heavy-handed, even off-putting. But let's bear in mind, they are not K. Bedford.


Get's it atmo-mo. ;) :)


William

PS: Obviously I need to state it again - nothing against the quality of KB's work, it looks great.

[rspecker]

Thinking back on what I remember of a couple of years of posts, it's not at all obvious to me.

If by "self-serving to various commercial interests," you mean framebuilders themselves have been promoting their wares here, I've seen no evidence of it. The framebuilders who have posted here have been, in my opinion, anyway, most circumspect about maintaining a distinction between sharing knowledge based on their experience and promoting their work, dissing the work of anyone else, or actively seeking customers (which is how I'd interpret "serving commercial interests".

If you mean to include an enthusiastic owner waxing lyrical about their new frame, I fail to see how that's "self-serving". IMO it's not "marketing" either.

I would agree, the comments by Smiley and BBDave about the Kelly Bedford frame have not been subtle or low-key. I can understand how some might find their praise a bit heavy-handed, even off-putting. But let's bear in mind, they are not K. Bedford.

I agree that the various framebuilders who post here (fewer now) gave legitimate information, and I wish more of them still posted here more frequently (OT: I still don't really get why they bailed). My point was that I don't care if commercially motivated speech on this Forum is subtle or more overt. I guess I would object to pure advertising because it would junk up the forum (just like classified ads are prohibited), but I dont think Pete, Smiley, etc. even got close to this line. It is legitimately interesting that Kelly has started his own shop and that pictures of the first few bikes are posted.