Riding in groups

[jdoiv]

Ok, so I'm trying to get back into riding this year. Mostly I ride by myself since time is an issue and my weekends revolve around spending time with the family unit. I have gotten to go on a couple of group rides though and my most recent one I found a little annoying.

What annoyed me was the constant calling out of actions by the people around me. I understand "car up", "car back" and pointing out road hazards. I can even understand "slowing" when coming into a stop sign. But these guys/gals would call out every little thing they or someone else was doing.

I'm riding along in second wheel and tap my brakes as the rider in lead slows a little as we start up a minor grade. I hear the person behind yell out "slowing". We're not talking about downshifting for the hill. Just a very small change in pace and a tap of the breaks to avoid touching tires. Then when in a staggered line, someone stands to climb, they call out "standing". I guess I figure everyone can maintain their own speed and maintain their "space" in the group without calling out every little thing they do.

Am I wrong? Is this common in group rides these days? I've never been one to call out every little thing I do and have never ridden with a bunch that was so vocal. It got on my nerves and I eventually decided to slow my pace and let them ride off in front of me.

[crossjunkee]

I'm easily annoyed with over communication too. I will annouce a car back, and point out pot holes/glass.

[johnnymossville]

It does add an annoying element to an otherwise enjoyable time doesn't it? I'll put up with it though, since I find group rides in moderation a great training tool.

[jdoiv]

I should note that they were all very nice people and even sent one of the riders back to check on me. I was also not feeling 100% and my hr was elevated on the flats so going easy was a good plan. I thanked them for checking on me but told them to ride ahead and that I had a cue sheet and would be fine. I probably finished the last 15 miles on my own and was only 4 or 5 minutes behind them. I just couldn't take all the chatter.

[goonster]

Am I wrong?

You are not wrong.

It drives me crazy too.

The only thing that should be called out verbally are bad holes directly in the direction of travel, and the approach of cars that requires action, i.e. if the whole group is riding single file as far right as is prudent and appropriate then there's really no need to call "car BACK!!" every two minutes. :rolleyes:

[ridemoreoften]

Understand your comments, but it is difficult when new people ride together so over communication is probably better. On the other side, I went for a group ride last year ONCE with a local club in the Princeton area - guess who? - B level ride and there we folks that were down right dangerous. In a pace line doing 20-22 miles an hour and some guy tries passing me on the right with virtually no should, no announcement. People in genral riding like they were in their own little world vs riding with 10 or so other people. Since then have been going solo or with several good friends with lots of miles together. I will try the club ride again but definitely didn't enjoy it last time. Everyone seems more interested in hammering vs safety. IMHO

[gforce]

I have never heard someone call out "standing" - sounds like overkill. I don't mind erring on the side of caution/communication but that seems silly.

[Ray]

Overall, I'd say that its better to err on the side of too much communication rather than not enough. As a group gets to know each other better, people will usually chill and figure out how much they need to say. I tend to indicate things like holes and gravel and slowing with hand signals and reserve calling out for cars back and cars up (when the situation calls for - I don't usually think this is all that necessary since everyone is looking in that direction), and the rare occasion when something really unusual pops up, like a cow or dog in the road or something. Calling out "standing" seems ridiculous, but I've seen people stand so awkwardly and interrupt their rhythm so much that they've caused crashes behind them. In those cases, I'd rather them let me know its coming rather than just riding up their a$$ when they do it.

On another point, B rides are notoriously dangerous, probably everywhere. I'm a B rider and have generally stopped doing B rides because the ones in my club are such suicide runs. I'll back off and do a B- or C sometimes, just for the company, but the Bs aren't worth doing. Crashes and near crashes all the time, just from people being too aggressive, going too hard and losing their minds, and not having a good sense of how to ride in a pack. The A rides in my club are reputed to be fine, but I'm not fast enough for those. The B- and C are fine too - there's no pretense of trying to be fast and folks are just on 'em for fun. Its not the best pack riding, but its good enough and, importantly, safe.

-Ray

[Fixed]

use an i pod
cheers

[jdoiv]

Most of the riders were my age or older and seemed to have pretty good bike skills. I understand the nervousness of riding with new people and I was definitely the new person to the group, though not a new rider. The rest of the group seemed to know each other pretty well and I am not a regular with the club in any stretch of the word. But all the calling out was making me nervous. I did race some in college and have been in very large packs that I wasn't as nervous in as I was with these guys. I see the point of more communication is better than none, but the "slowing" and "standing" were a little ridiculous.

[flydhest]

Amen.
. . . and I lead a shop ride. It drives me nuts, as well, but I try to look at it on the positive side. I often fail.

I will, on occasion, after having heard more than I can bear, point right and shout out "tree!" or "house!" or "flagpole!" as the particular case may dictate.

Worse yet, are those who feel that under any and all circumstances, people should--nay, must--point out potholes. ***??? Crummy riders, who can barely hold a line with both hands on the bars are going to take one hand off when the pavement gets bad? Hmmm, I don't see how that could possibly end badly, especially since, just to be on the safe side, they tend to stop pedalling at that point, even though there are 15 people behind them.

Shouting "slowing" is, in all sincerity, better, in my ho, than hand signals on group rides. Who the freak started the "I'm going to cover my lower back" as a sign for slowing? Again, the problem for me is that crummy riders, who can barely hold a line with both hands on the bars while going a constant speed are somehow encouraged to remove one hand while they are slowing down. Weight gets shifted forward, only one hand is on the bars, luckily, there's nooooooooo way that could cause anybody to swerve at all or lose a bit of control.

The solution? PSFA. I'm going to get this printed on my team's jersey for next year so the newbies see it often. Pay some attention. How hard of a rule to live by is that? A stop sign a quarter of a mile up a straight, wide open road. PSFA and who needs to signal that you're slowing or even shout? How about just be conscious????

[false_Aest]

The obvious solution is to start calling out everything you do:

FARTING!
COASTING!
PEDALING!
DRINKING!
HURTING!
DRAFTING!
TREE!
SQUIRREL!
HOTTIE!
KITTY!
RIDING!
FRED!

[johnnymossville]

what a great thread! I guess like in anything, ya gotta find the right group that suits you.

Now all of a sudden I'm visualizing some Tuesday Night Group ride where every single person in the group calls out EVERYTHING!!! Every rider Pointing, Arms Waving, yelling, etc,...

Anyone wanna help me with a video of this nonsense? We'll be YouTube Stars!

[jdoiv]

Fly, Amen! That's what I'm talkin' about. Just pay attention to what is going on and you really don't have to call anything out.

[rustychisel]

POSTING!!!!!!


PSFA - I like that.

Cheers, I'm an insomniac and I gotta ride in 4 hours. :bike:

[jvp]

I've only done a few group rides, the first one was a long slowdown/speedup accordian for ~ 2 hours, with lots of hand signals, yelling, and one woman that felt compelled to bark out orders to those near her. The next ride I did was much better, mainly because 3 of us split off for most of the ride. So as of now I would rather ride alone or with a small group of friends, but I can see how a larger group of good riders working together would be fun and worthwhile.

[jdoiv]

I've only done a few group rides, the first one was a long slowdown/speedup accordian for ~ 2 hours, with lots of hand signals, yelling, and one woman that felt compelled to bark out orders to those near her. The next ride I did was much better, mainly because 3 of us split off for most of the ride. So as of now I would rather ride alone or with a small group of friends, but I can see how a larger group of good riders working together would be fun and worthwhile.

I did a ride with this same club a couple of years ago and we got a small group of about 8 of us (about the same size as the one in the first post) and we worked really well together. We set up a nice rotating pace line and didn't really have to give out commands other than "not too fast" or "pulling off". Guess you take your chances when getting in with a new group.

[GregL]

I call all this extraneous communication the "charity ride syndrome." Large charity rides have many newbies who are very nervous riding in a pack. In the interest of safety, they call out every possible road hazard and every action on the bike. As these riders become cycling enthusiasts and partake in more group rides, they bring the extra chatter with them. There was even some discussion in another thread (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=45116&highlight=aids+ride) about dubious hand signals. It is irritating, but at least the intent is good. Perhaps some wise counseling from the more experienced members of the group can help the newer riders learn to ride safely without all the excess chatter. Fortunately, groups with more experienced riders don't seem to have this problem, and are much safer too.

Regards,
Greg

[Peter P.]

This group you've taken to riding with lacks the skills or experience that you have, which is why they're into all this newbie vocalization. Much of what they're vocalizing is intuitive to more experienced group riders.

Either tolerate it, or seek another group. My guess is, you're the outsider here, so it would be rude of you to try and change the group's behavior to suit your desires.

[Steelhead]

I have never heard someone call out "standing" - sounds like overkill. I don't mind erring on the side of caution/communication but that seems silly.

Are you sure this was a group ride and not some sort of synchronized circus act workout??

I saw a guy the other night swerve out of the lineup about three or four feet and extend his left arm to point out a STRAW in the road two more feet outside the line in case someone was riding wide and had to have that pointed out I guess.

[Ahneida Ride]

I never ride in groups .... well almost never ...

I don't possess the skill sets and I refuse to endanger someone else.

[jmeloy]

I always ride solo and have been feeling a bit burned out. I've convinced myself that a group ride and some companionship might re-energize me. Am I nuts?
JAM

[Tom Kellogg]

Some suggestions here plus other pointers relative to group riding. No need to reply, just my 2 cents.
http://spectrum-cycles.com/67.htm

[chuckroast]

We're quite an act (spouse and me).

"pedal, coast, bump...pedal, coast, bump...." for hours.

Unless we start fussing at each other, then we're really funny.

[chuckred]

tapping the brakes in a group - not a great idea - better to soft pedal or stick your nose into the wind... otherwise, you start the accordian effect and someone's going to cross wheels.

Standing on a hill - some without good skills aren't able to do so without the back wheel pushing back.

I certainly am no expert, but I've been on the wrong end of these moves myself.

I wouldn't be so quick to blame the people who are making the warnings for being "newbs"... not saying that it's so, but since you said you haven't been riding in groups much, your co-riders may think it's the other way around - and it doesn't sound like you've had a chance to prove that you're a smooth rider. Better to err on the side of overcommunication than send some new guy into the ground, right?

[jdoiv]

Chuck, good points.

The rider behind me was a little close and up on my back left side. Swerving into the wind wasn't an option and going right would put me in the grass. When I say taping the break, it was more of a feather. Enough to avoid the touching wheels and allowing me to drift just a little off center.

I see your point though and I certainly got the feeling they may have thought I was the noob. Funny thing was, when the lead heard the slowing called out, he commented they were making him feel too slow to be leading. I informed him it wasn't him, that I tapped the brake to avoid touching wheels. We had just started a slight incline and as he slowed due to the hill, I had to do something. It really wasn't much of a hill and if I'm leading into something small like this, I usually apply more force to keep the pace constant. He didn't and slowed a small amount. Thinking back on it, I think the person that called out slowing was just riding a little too close.

Still the chatter was a bit much with people calling out "gravel" and "bump" and what not. If you can't hold your line or react to small changes (is. PSFA), your not much fun to ride with.

I was happy to sit up and coast on a downhill and let them ride off a little bit. Again, very nice people, but nervous to ride with. Other club rides I've done have not been quite so nerve racking.

[johnnymossville]

I always ride solo and have been feeling a bit burned out. I've convinced myself that a group ride and some companionship might re-energize me. Am I nuts?
JAM

My Thursday night group ride has done wonders for my general outlook on riding and racing. I still prefer riding alone, but a good group ride will keep you coming back for more every time. I say do it.

[johnnymossville]

Some suggestions here plus other pointers relative to group riding. No need to reply, just my 2 cents.
http://spectrum-cycles.com/67.htm

Tom, those were some great pointers and an enjoyable read, thanks.

John

[TAW]

I always ride solo and have been feeling a bit burned out. I've convinced myself that a group ride and some companionship might re-energize me. Am I nuts?
JAM

You're in the KC area, aren't you? If you're interested in riding with a group, PM me and I can give you some info or maybe hook up together with some other riders if you're interested.

[thinpin]

PSFA -LOL great. But on group rides like everywhere else, there is always one - and in bigger groups maybe two!
Bunch rides where people are on their brakes, never mind "feathering" them do make me nervous. But it takes a group of riders a while to gel into a really slick pack so being on the brakes is, I suppose understandable..only problem is one on all on for safety sake

[toaster]

Actions speak louder than words. It's better to use body language and hand signals to make things apparent.

Watching a good rider should serve as a model and imitating smooth movements and changes as they relate to important information others should notice is a subtle art.

Dangerous obstacles either appear suddenly and need to be verbalized immediately or can be observed and that information can transmitted by proper signaling and body language so that everyone can make the adjustments.

[palincss]

We're quite an act (spouse and me).

"pedal, coast, bump...pedal, coast, bump...." for hours.

Unless we start fussing at each other, then we're really funny.

Perhaps your tandem is taking fore-aft compliance too far?

:confused:

[chuckroast]

We've been married 30 years....I'm very good at compliance (now). :D

[Elefantino]

I posted a link to Tom's soap box on our club bulletin board. Thanks, Mr. Kellogg.

I only yell when I'm in front ("CLEAR!" on turns, etc.). The rest of the time, I pay attention and usually chuckle at all the other yellers.

We had a really nice double paceline working one day on RAGBRAI. Then, after a stop, we tried to get one going again. Total bust.

[Ray]

I posted a link to Tom's soap box on our club bulletin board. Thanks, Mr. Kellogg.

I only yell when I'm in front ("CLEAR!" on turns, etc.). The rest of the time, I pay attention and usually chuckle at all the other yellers.

We had a really nice double paceline working one day on RAGBRAI. Then, after a stop, we tried to get one going again. Total bust.
The best pacelines I've been in have been on organized tours like that, where the route is heading into a headwind for a chunk of the day, you're already semi-wasted from X days of riding, and people figure out real fast what works. In my club, only the A riders seem to know what they're doing universally enough to make it work. Sometimes in the lower rides that I'm in, a group of 4-5 of us might form a line for a while and make it work, but when the whole group is together, it goes to hell in a hurry.

-Ray

[sjbraun]

Cycling clubs are just like any other group.
Groups establish normative behaviors and encourage their adoption by all members. If the group norms don't work for you, find another group.
Its really simple to solve this problem.

[Skrawny]

I have called out "standing" when I stand, but only when I know that I have a newbie behind me who may not be ready for my back tire shifting backwards a few inches.

I agree w/ others who have said that the more experienced rides, tend to communicate only the essentials, and do so with the minimal exertion.
-s

[Fixed]

okay i ride a lot solo so ..what bothers me in a group ? a cat that will not shut up ..i am all for hi.. how you doing but the non stop talker gets to me .. i want to say watch the f... were you are going

i am reminded of the cat that goes for a haircut the barber says how do you want it cut ..? ... in silence
cheers :beer:

[Ti Designs]

How do you define and experienced rider? There are some riders who do the group ride thing for a year and think they know everything (and feel the need to let everyone else know it). There are others who have been riding with groups for 25 years and say very little. And all too often the guy with one year's experience rides up next to the guy with 25 years experience and starts telling him how to ride...

[mikki]

I have never heard someone call out "standing" - sounds like overkill. I don't mind erring on the side of caution/communication but that seems silly.

+1

[kettel724]

Find a small group of friends with similar abilities or ride alone. Most large groups consist of egotists who need to be in charge or at least be heard. Safety is one thing but overkill is annoying. Ride with a local triathlon group and you will find a different scenario.

[WadePatton]

Guilty of riding solo almost exclusively for a long time and my riding partner said "YOU'RE ALL OVER THE ROAD" when we got together the other day. Whoops. It's a method of being seen and keeping drivers from assuming I'll ride a 3-inch line when they come by.

So I have to watch myself in the group, but I'm usually with very experienced folks--chatty folks who like riding two-abreast and yapping it up.

"Standing" is a totally new one to me...suppose I'll have to go do a "comfort zone" ride with the local club and see what all the new kids are saying. ;)

[Ti Designs]

Find a small group of friends with similar abilities or ride alone.

Kettel, I'm not picking on what you wrote, seems to be common to many on this forum. I strongly disagree. That's like saying "I'm not very good at driving, think I'll get me an SUV". Riding skills are to be learned, not avoided. Skills are better than carbon wheels and they weigh nothing. When I started riding with groups I was a sponge, I wanted to learn everything. Had I only ridden alone or with friends no better than I am, I wouldn't have learned a damn thing. Sure, you're going to find some groups that don't think you belong there, but you're also going to find that there are experienced riders who remember how they got started.

[medici]

Ride with a local triathlon group and you will find a different scenario.

-1

This comment took me by surprise! In my experience triathletes are usually the worst at riding in a paceline. They always seem to ride like there's no one around them.

Do you find it otherwise?

[rnhood]

Agree, learn to ride with the group. If the group is largely composed of inexperienced riders, learn to ride with them (more distance, take nothing for granted, etc). Help them attain riding skills. If the group is very experienced, learn to ride with them and enjoy the benefits associated with close knit disciplined riding.

I have no desire to ride alone these days. Group riding is far more fun and enjoyable. Don't obsess over perfection, as with any activity it doesn't exist.

[medici]

I have no desire to ride alone these days. Group riding is far more fun and enjoyable. Don't obsess over perfection, as with any activity it doesn't exist.

Amen to that. I ride solo maybe once a week, and it's a short ride. Sometimes a fast club ride so I can refresh my paceline skills, which decay quickly I find.

Mostly I ride with some subset of a network of cycling buddies that I've cultivated over the years. The joy in cycling now is mostly in the comraderie.

Pete

[Skrawny]

Amen to that. I ride solo maybe once a week, and it's a short ride. Sometimes a fast club ride so I can refresh my paceline skills, which decay quickly I find.

Mostly I ride with some subset of a network of cycling buddies that I've cultivated over the years. The joy in cycling now is mostly in the comraderie.

Pete

1+ (or is it 2+? - I don't know...)

-s

[mflaherty37]

my favorit call out is "TURDS" when traversing the Amish areas.