Fixed gear choices

[scottcw2]

I am considering taking the fixed gear plunge. I have a choice between two complete bikes locally.

One is a Keith Anderson steel frame/fork with the following:

-Suntour Superbe pro 165mm cranks (bike comes with 3 different chainrings: 48,49,50 teeth)
-NJS Sakae drop bars
-Thomson seat post
-Selle Italia saddle
-Suntour Headseat
-Suntour BB
-Alexrims R390s on Felt hubs (back wheel is flip-flop fixed with a 16 tooth cog and a 17 tooth cog + Dura ace lock ring) - lock nuts, not clincher

The other is a Phil Wood made by Independent Fabrications with the following:

Easton EC90 aero fork
Chris King NoThreadSet
Thomson X2 70x10*
Deda Pista handlebar 40cm
Easton EC90 27.2 seatpost
Selle Success 2 Monoc Kevlar Carbon Ti
Campagnolo 170 crankset
Blackspire Track 144/45 ring and 15T cog
KMC chain
Phil Wood hi flange track hubs
aero rim, bladed spokes, alloy nipples
Michelin Pro2 Race tires

Any thoughts or feedback from those with fixed gear experience on what I should be looking for, questions I should ask, preferences between the frames? Oh, the KA is listed for $750, the PW for $1600.

Thanks!

[Fixed]

the k.a. imho if it fits
cheers
for the street or track ?

[scottcw2]

the k.a. imho if it fits
cheers
for the street or track ?

Street, mainly training rides. Why the KA over the PH/IF?

[Fixed]

i don't care for carbon forks on a fix and street fix your going to learn track stands and skids no need for a bling bike those are better for the track imho
i have a hard time riding anything but a fix now I feel like i stepped in bubble gum when i ride a geared bike enjoy they both sound great

[old_school]

they are both nice bikes
if $$ isn't a determining factor, what cranks are your femurs, hip flexors, muscle fibers etc happier spinning: 165 or 170s ?

[scottcw2]

they are both nice bikes
if $$ isn't a determining factor, what cranks are your femurs, hip flexors, muscle fibers etc happier spinning: 165 or 170s ?

I ride 172.5 on my road bike. I can always swap the cranks regardless.

[rustychisel]

Either. But you say nothing about frame angles and sizes, so they question is impossible to answer, since fit will be more important than anything. Bad fit on a fixed bike is - if anything - more important than on geared since there's less chance of catching a breather/rest position on a long ride. Get the best saddle you can if you plan on riding more than an hour at a time.

I'd probably go for the former - the Anderson - and, yes, I'm a sucker for Superbe Pro parts, but it also gives you some gearing options which you're surely going to need, especially since those ratios are for track. You'll wanna gear down.

[m.skeen]

Agree with everything said so far. Make sure the frame fits. Use a confortable saddle. Just normal riding on a fixed can be rough on your knees if you're not careful. Remember don't stop pedaling when you turn :D

Just and FYI. I ride 175 on my road bikes and I went down to 170 for my fixed. Slightly easier crank turn over. If you ever want to try the bike on the track keep the cranks shorter. You will really wake your legs up running that 48/17. The key is being able to spin your legs out. I had a track national champ on my team who road 46/17 only.

For wheels/tires I chose tubulars but probably should have gone with clinchers (I did all training rides). Tubulars will need a higher pressure and I had to buy a better pump. Not horrible but I could have saved in the long run going clinchers.

All this being said I'd go with the KA (if it fits) for a few reasons: it's steel, suntour parts, and price. Get in at a lower price and see how it goes.

[scottcw2]

The KA it is. It's slightly bigger (58cm compared to 56cm for the PW/IF). I ride a 58cm road bike.

My next question... is the price fair or should I try to talk it down? I will have to change gearing since there is no way I am ready for a 48/17 just starting out. I imagine that's a few dollars.

[paczki]

The KA it is. It's slightly bigger (58cm compared to 56cm for the PW/IF). I ride a 58cm road bike.

My next question... is the price fair or should I try to talk it down? I will have to change gearing since there is no way I am ready for a 48/17 just starting out. I imagine that's a few dollars.

The price is more than fair --- KA's frames start for well over 2K. Try 48/17 before you decide to switch. Or put an 18 on. I began with 48/17 and it wasn't any problem in Boston. But your hills may vary.

[rustychisel]

Dunno prices and worth, sorry, but maybe mention a little spending adjustment may be part of your future...

48 x 17 is getting towards a useable gear for road, depending on your strength etc.

Oh, another thing, if you find you can't get on with it, you've spent less than half the price of the other bike.

[m.skeen]

I was't trying to scare you out of 48/17. I just don't know your riding level etc. If it's rough then throw an 18 or 19 on there. Cogs run ~$25 so it won't be too expensive.

[markie]

Where are these bikes? They both sound awesome...

[scottcw2]

To give an idea of the hills in my area, my road bike has a compact (50/36) chainring with a 12-25 cassette. There are hills where I am in the 36/23 gear. Conversely, I am usually in the 50/12 gear when descending.

[scottcw2]

The price is more than fair --- KA's frames start for well over 2K. Try 48/17 before you decide to switch. Or put an 18 on. I began with 48/17 and it wasn't any problem in Boston. But your hills may vary.

Well, this is a 7 yr. old frame and the owner said that the new prices have jumped since then.

[Fixed]

show him cash if he says no walk imho
you will like 165 s on a fix i think
cheers

[Ray]

I was't trying to scare you out of 48/17. I just don't know your riding level etc. If it's rough then throw an 18 or 19 on there. Cogs run ~$25 so it won't be too expensive.
Lance Armstrong used to do his winter fixed training with a 42x18 - he must not have been a very high level rider. Just kidding, but goes to show a bigger gear isn't "better" even for strong guys - depends on why you're riding a fixie.

-Ray

[paczki]

Lance Armstrong used to do his winter fixed training with a 42x18 - he must not have been a very high level rider. Just kidding, but goes to show a bigger gear isn't "better" even for strong guys - depends on why you're riding a fixie.

-Ray

Sure. That's my point. Bigger gear is often easier. Especially if you like to muscle up climbs. Because if you have smaller gearing you're going to have to spin real, real fast going down.

[Ray]

Sure. That's my point. Bigger gear is often easier. Especially if you like to muscle up climbs. Because if you have smaller gearing you're going to have to spin real, real fast going down.
Yup. I stick in the mid-60s gear-inch range. I can spin down almost anything (and there's a front brake for when I can't), but there are limits to what I can muscle up. And I can still cruise in the high teens, low 20s with that gear, although the low 20s gets me up to 110+ rpms. Whatever works for each person.

-Ray

[Fixed]

Yup. I stick in the mid-60s gear-inch range. I can spin down almost anything (and there's a front brake for when I can't), but there are limits to what I can muscle up. And I can still cruise in the high teens, low 20s with that gear, although the low 20s gets me up to 110+ rpms. Whatever works for each person.

-Ray
that is the smart way that is way old cats can ride a fix forever
imho
cheers :beer:

[m.skeen]

Lance Armstrong used to do his winter fixed training with a 42x18 - he must not have been a very high level rider. Just kidding, but goes to show a bigger gear isn't "better" even for strong guys - depends on why you're riding a fixie.

-Ray

Wasn't trying to imply bigger is better.

Nice signature by the way :beer:

[paczki]

Wasn't trying to imply bigger is better.

Nice signature by the way :beer:


I think we all agree. I'm looking forward to running 39/16 when I have the legs for it. But on 35+ descents my legs are moving plenty fast with my gearing!

[Fixed]

40x15
on my work bike i ride about everyday mt bike

50 x18 road bike fix 2 or 3 times a week most of the time solo
cheers :beer:

[scottcw2]

show him cash if he says no walk imho
you will like 165 s on a fix i think
cheers

Curious as to why I would like 165s on a fixed when I ride 172.5 on my road bike?

[Fixed]

it's a fixie
165 is the rule of thumb
cheers

[markie]

At some point you might want a higher pedaling cadence. It is easier to spin shorter cranks.

In addition pedaling round corners it is nice not to get pedal strikes.


This is at the deficit of having more leverage to get up climbs. I went from 175mm cranks to 170mm when I went fixed. I didnt really notice the difference.

[scottcw2]

A couple of follow-up questions...

My road bike saddle height is 77.7 cm from center of BB to top of saddle with 172.5 cranks. How would I set up the saddle height on the fixed with 165 cranks?

Also, should I keep the drop bars or replace with bullhorns?

[Ray]

A couple of follow-up questions...

My road bike saddle height is 77.7 cm from center of BB to top of saddle with 172.5 cranks. How would I set up the saddle height on the fixed with 165 cranks?

Also, should I keep the drop bars or replace with bullhorns?
You definitely want your saddle higher - whether you want it 7.5 mm higher you'll probably have to figure out through trial and error. If you're riding 172.5 now, I'd personally go to 170 on the cranks, but probably not 165. In any case, you want the reach to the pedal to be about the same and you'll just be turning smaller circles at the top of the stroke.

I terms of handlebars, its all personal preference. I like bull-horns, but really wide ones for more leverage when I'm wrestling the bike up hills. I basically had to saw off the hooks of a wide set of drop bars and flip 'em over to get the width. Normal width bull-horns wouldn't do anything for me that drop bars wouldn't. When I had drop bars, I almost never found myself in the drops on the fixie, though. Whatever works, trial and error, etc, etc, etc.

-Ray

[rustychisel]

More or less agree with Ray, I'd go 170mm too, 'cause my geared bikes have 172.5mm cranks. Pedal strike not an issue for me, you scrape the ground, you skip the back wheel, you learn to deal with it and adjust your riding style.

Bullhorns, however, present a problem. Not because of less hand positions and so on, but because you need to adapt the position at the front end of the bike to use them effectively, usually by lowering the bars so the centres are lower than with conventional drop bars, and you don't have a 'drop' position, so you stretch out to the curve of the bullhorns. This is, whether they're regulation bulls or 'chopped and flipped' road bars, ABOVE the bar centre rather than BELOW it. It's a bit of a compromise and you have to adjust the stem length accordingly, thus affecting your front-centre balance.

Therefore, on balance, I have a preference for drop bars with brake levers (both sides) to hang on to. Works for me.

[zray67]

I vote for the KA. It is your size. The difference in money leaves you with extra $$$ to experiment with the fit and gearing. Neither bike has, at a minimum, a front brake and you are going out on the road? There is macho and then there is crazy. Which are you? Sheldon Brown's web site should be browsed.
I have a Nishiki International($60.00 used) fixee bike. It is red and grey with pink hoods. After awhile the pink hoods grow on you. Plus, I was unable to locate replacements. If, you don't have brake levers and hoods you lose a hand placement option. If you don't have brakes you could lose your life or a arm or a leg.I live in San Francisco, a bastion of fixees. The bike messengers ride their fixees as if they are an extension of there bodies. If, people put 10 to 12 hours a day on their bikes, 5 or 6 days a week, the bikes just might be an extension. Plus, bike messengers are in their 20's, are going to live forever, and hopefully, are still carried under their parents health plans. There are no old, bold bike messengers.
Back to my Nishiki. It is a lugged Tange 1 frame and the paint is in pristine condition. Size 62st and 59tt both c - c. I kept all the Suntour stuff - brakes, levers, cranks, changed ring and cog. Kept the Araya rims with skewers but changed to 700 x 27 tires. A friend ask me about my death wish so I changed to nutted Alex rims. Added a Thomson seat post, Brooks' saddle, Nitto stem and bars and Crank Brothers Candy C pedals. But, the most important thing I did was work with a very good fitter at a lbs. Getting dialed in is very, very important.

PS: In reviewing my post and the other posts on this thread, I do not think that there is enough of a distinction being made between a fixed gear bike for use on a track or a fixed gear bike for use on the street. The frame of a track fixee will be subject to much great stresses than a street fixee. My fixee is used for commuting and as a training device for spinning.
My frame is not strong enough for racing.

[paczki]

I vote for the KA. It is your size. The difference in money leaves you with extra $$$ to experiment with the fit and gearing. Neither bike has, at a minimum, a front brake and you are going out on the road? There is macho and then there is crazy. Which are you? Sheldon Brown's web site should be browsed.
I have a Nishiki International($60.00 used) fixee bike. It is red and grey with pink hoods. After awhile the pink hoods grow on you. Plus, I was unable to locate replacements. If, you don't have brake levers and hoods you lose a hand placement option. If you don't have brakes you could lose your life or a arm or a leg.I live in San Francisco, a bastion of fixees. The bike messengers ride their fixees as if they are an extension of there bodies. If, people put 10 to 12 hours a day on their bikes, 5 or 6 days a week, the bikes just might be an extension. Plus, bike messengers are in their 20's, are going to live forever, and hopefully, are still carried under their parents health plans. There are no old, bold bike messengers.
Back to my Nishiki. It is a lugged Tange 1 frame and the paint is in pristine condition. Size 62st and 59tt both c - c. I kept all the Suntour stuff - brakes, levers, cranks, changed ring and cog. Kept the Araya rims with skewers but changed to 700 x 27 tires. A friend ask me about my death wish so I changed to nutted Alex rims. Added a Thomson seat post, Brooks' saddle, Nitto stem and bars and Crank Brothers Candy C pedals. But, the most important thing I did was work with a very good fitter at a lbs. Getting dialed in is very, very important.

PS: In reviewing my post and the other posts on this thread, I do not think that there is enough of a distinction being made between a fixed gear bike for use on a track or a fixed gear bike for use on the street. The frame of a track fixee will be subject to much great stresses than a street fixee. My fixee is used for commuting and as a training device for spinning.
My frame is not strong enough for racing.

POST PICTURES!!!!

[scottcw2]

PS: In reviewing my post and the other posts on this thread, I do not think that there is enough of a distinction being made between a fixed gear bike for use on a track or a fixed gear bike for use on the street.

Agreed. I am wondering if the 165 cranks are a recommendation for track riding. Since I will be doing all street riding (training, not dodging cars), I don't see why 170 would not be fine.

I am picking up the KA this Sunday if everything checks out in person. I am going to offer $700 max cash. I'll try to get pics up soon.

[MIN]

Agreed. I am wondering if the 165 cranks are a recommendation for track riding. Since I will be doing all street riding (training, not dodging cars), I don't see why 170 would not be fine.

I am picking up the KA this Sunday if everything checks out in person. I am going to offer $700 max cash. I'll try to get pics up soon.

Actually the reverse is true. You'd want shorter cranks on the road to mitigate pedal strike issue since the road is not banked like a velodrome. I run 170mm however and it's fine. It depends on the BB drop of your particular bike.

[Fixed]

:beer: don't worry get the bike ride if you hate it sell it ..they sell easy ..enjoy
cheers

[scottcw2]

Due to schedule conflicts, I won't be able to ride the bike before buying (not to mention that there are no brakes and I have never ridden a fixed). What should I look for before pulling out my wallet? Any questions I should ask?

Should I be concerned that the seller describes the ride as "super bouncy and responsive"?

[Fixed]

[QUOTE=scottcw2"super bouncy and responsive"?[/QUOTE]


bouncy(springy) steel frame and( twitchy ) responsive tight bike imho
take platform peds go slow ride up and down the street brake by pushing back on the peds
cheers remember there are no brakes on a skateboard either

[scottcw2]

bouncy(springy) steel frame and( twitchy ) responsive tight bike imho

Hmmm... I have a steel Peg road bike and I would not describe it as "bouncy." I would never think of bouncy as a desirable trait in a frame. I'll try it out and see.

[medici]

Due to schedule conflicts, I won't be able to ride the bike before buying (not to mention that there are no brakes and I have never ridden a fixed). What should I look for before pulling out my wallet? Any questions I should ask?

Should I be concerned that the seller describes the ride as "super bouncy and responsive"?

No brake and you're a first time fixed gear rider? I'd go with a front brake
at least. If the bike doesn't accept one, I'd reconsider.

This is a frequent topic of debate on the fixed gear list, and I really don't
want to start anything, but having a brake is much safer for a newbie.
And an oldbie like me.

Agree with Fixed on the 165 cranks. I'm 6' and used 165s for years. They
spin fast. I upgraded to 170s when I couldn't get the Sugino I wanted in
165. They're OK, too, but I'd have the 165s if I could. I ride 175 on most
of my geared bikes. One of the benefits is to develop a quick, smooth spin,
right? Easier with shorter cranks.

I've ridden a 42X17 combination for 12 years in rolling terrain (SF Bay area).
It's fine. Kind to your knees. I can't stay with a fast group ride, but I rarely
ride it with a group anyway.

Have fun and ease into it.

Pete

[scottcw2]

No brake and you're a first time fixed gear rider? I'd go with a front brake
at least. If the bike doesn't accept one, I'd reconsider.

Have fun and ease into it.

Pete

Thanks. I came to the conclusion that I will pass if the fork can't be drilled for a front brake.

[ericspin]

Smart move.........USE THE BRAKE! It really helps on the downhill. Also, I ride 175's on my coastie but roll 165's on the fixed. Only way to go IMHO. You are gonna love this!

[Fixed]

bouncy(springy) steel frame and( twitchy ) responsive tight bike imho
take platform peds go slow ride up and down the street brake by pushing back on the peds
cheers remember there are no brakes on a skateboard either
when i said this i was only thinking about a little test ride not for riding everywhere everyday
cheers

[Ray]

Agree with Fixed on the 165 cranks. I'm 6' and used 165s for years. They
spin fast. I upgraded to 170s when I couldn't get the Sugino I wanted in
165. They're OK, too, but I'd have the 165s if I could. I ride 175 on most
of my geared bikes. One of the benefits is to develop a quick, smooth spin,
right? Easier with shorter cranks.
Right, but can you translate the quick, smooth spin that you develop on 165s to the 175s you ride on your other bikes? I don't find I can feel a difference between 172.5 and 170, but I could definitely feel the difference between 175 and 170 so I'm quite sure I could between 165 and 175. My geared bikes are all 172.5 - my fixie is 170. The spin I develop with the 170 translates well to my 172.5 cranks. But I used to have a touring bike with 175s and I never felt nearly as comfortable at high cadences with that bike - good torque but a low redline! And I was riding fixed a LOT in those days. The advice I've always heard is to ride as close to the same crank size as possible on your fixie and geared bikes so that the spin you develop on the fixie will translate to the geared bikes. YMMV, but the OP should at least be aware of this school of thought.

-Ray

[scottcw2]

I got it for $700 cash. Geometry is similar to my Peg road - 58cm ST c-c; 57.5 TT c-c. The main difference is the Peg has a 72 STA and the KA has a 74 STA. My research indicates it is standard for the STA to be steeper on a track bike. I will have to see how I like it considering that the last bike I had with a 74 STA killed my back. However, that was before I had dialed in my saddle height and bar reach, so I can't say with any certainty that the STA was the culprit.

Interesting that there is about a 50/50 mix of people recommending 165 v. 170 cranks.

[scottcw2]

Where are these bikes? They both sound awesome...

The Phil Wood/IF was on eBay located in Sunnyvale, CA. The KA is in my living room. :D

[zray67]

Best of luck and many happy miles on your new fixee!
I hope you will post some pictures.
I have truly enjoyed this thread and hope it continues.
For the survey, I ride 175 cranks. I don't go that fast that when I lean into a curve that there is a high probability of a crank arm striking the pavement,

[scottcw2]

Best of luck and many happy miles on your new fixee!
I hope you will post some pictures.

Thanks. I hope to get links to pics up soon. First it goes to my LBS to get drilled for a front brake, new gearing and a clean-up.

[scottcw2]

Following up on the issue of crank length, perhaps some idea of my build/riding style would help get more input.

I am 6-1, 200 lbs (180 when in fighting shape). 33" pant inseam. My riding style is high cadence spinning. I shoot for 100+ rpm at all times. I am not a masher by any stretch. As previously stated, I ride 172.5 on my geared bike. Any further thoughts on 165 v 170 on the fixed?

[bironi]

I am a different body type, 160, 5'-7", but I love 165 cranks for cornering, descending, and fast spin-up. My geared bike has spent a lot of time hanging in the shop the last 2 years since I took up fixed riding. Watch out, it's addictive. :beer:

[rustychisel]

My preference is 170mm, and I use them on the track too, but that said, it's just a preference. Providing there are no other variables (ie an absurdly low BB or possibility of toe overlap if you're averse to that) it should not matter too much.

Learning to corner effectively with a different drivetrain is much much more important.

[medici]

Following up on the issue of crank length, perhaps some idea of my build/riding style would help get more input.

Any further thoughts on 165 v 170 on the fixed?

Yup.

1. You already have a good set of cranks on there if I'm reading the initial post correctly. As I recall, the Suntour cranks are quite fine. Ride them for awhile and see what you think. Especially down a few steep hills. No need to do anything immediately.

2. Shorter cranks favor your high spin rate.

3. I have to be more careful with my 170's than I ever was with the 165s.
Found myself banging the pedal on speedbumps, which I never did with the 165s.

Ultimately, though, it's not a life or death decision. You'll be fine with either one.

[scottcw2]

Thanks everyone. It will be 4-6 weeks before I can ride again. I am missing a lot of skin from both knees, both elbows, my right hip and I have a sprained shoulder. Took a nasty spill going downhill this evening.

[medici]

Bummer. Was this on the fixed gear? How's the bike?

[rustychisel]

D'oh!!!! Mend soon.

[scottcw2]

Bummer. Was this on the fixed gear? How's the bike?

On the Peg. From what I could tell,the bike was unscathed - not even a scratch. It would have been insult to injury if the bike had been damaged as I can't afford to replace it right now.

[zray67]

Glad nothing was broken. Wish you a speedy recovery.

My down hill story; I went over the handle bars, landed on my head on soft,damp grass(I was really lucky) at 6AM. One moment I was on the bike, the next moment I was on the ground. I had thought that bad things only happened to other people. Now, I belong to the ranks of "other people". So, I'm a tad bit more careful.

[Oirad]

the k.a. imho if it fits
cheers
for the street or track ?

Yeah, just don't overthink this baby. 165's, 170's, 172.5's, 175's. To paraphrase Moliere's character, "I didn't know I was speaking prose all of this time" (i.e. I didn't know I was riding 170's since my bicycling infancy).

As for brakes, don't be like me and ride without one (whether you have lots of experience and especially if you're a newbie). The issue isn't about braking to stop short of the vagaries of the road; rather, what do you do if you hit a bump pretty hard, the chain flies off? I know, I know, your chain shouldn't fly off if it is tensioned properly, bla ... bla ... bla ... I'll tell you what, if it does happen, it'll wipe that goofy smile off of your face, that's for sure.

Bisogna avere un po' di sale in zucca, Ragazzi!

Oirad