TdF Stage 10 - Spoiler...

[bike <3'er]

Now we have a Tour, a race! That was a blast to watch. Your feel for Kirchen, he rode as well as he could, Vandevelde was strong, Valverde fades, but the race to the line for Frank Schleck and Cadel Evans was awesome. Cadel wears yellow, by one second!

[93legendti]

Wow, that was great entertainment!

[gone]

Just when I think I've given up on pro cycling they pull a stunt like that and make me watch.

Really awesome stuff.

[bike <3'er]

Just when I think I've given up on pro cycling they pull a stunt like that and make me watch.

Really awesome stuff.

Word. I think we all suspected the setting today would create a new storyline. Now three teams have leaders to pull for and there are certainly more than three riders who can still take the yellow. It would've been fun to watch Contador smack down with Ricco Suave.

[Ray]

Question - If

a) Slipstream/Garmin/Chipolte is serious about riding clean and
b) a guy like Vande Velde, who's always been a strong domestique but never an elite climber hangs with the elite climbers on a tough mountain finish and has enough left to sprint at the finish...

...does it follow that...

c) the Tour is clean, or at least very nearly clean, this year?

I don't know how true a) is, but if its true, it seems to portend interesting changes throughout.

-Ray

[Dino]

Question - If

a) Slipstream/Garmin/Chipolte is serious about riding clean and
b) a guy like Vande Velde, who's always been a strong domestique but never an elite climber hangs with the elite climbers on a tough mountain finish and has enough left to sprint at the finish...

...does it follow that...

c) the Tour is clean, or at least very nearly clean, this year?

I don't know how true a) is, but if its true, it seems to portend interesting changes throughout.

-Ray


Considering that Vande Velde is (like many we have seen) part of the former dominating team that has seen many of it's wayware members get caught with something, then there is certainly room for speculation.

I certainly hope that all is well and we can see the Tour out with no more problems.

Oh, and in support of this thread - what a great day of racing!

[Volant]

I always wonder how stages like this would play-out if the riders didn't have radio; being fed the time stats of other riders or being told someone is in difficulty. Do you think time gaps would be greater? Or, does that not even matter? There has to be a psychological advantage or motivator to know that if you could just gain X-secs, then you're in yellow tonight.
Of course, when I'm doing all I can just to get air into my lungs and keep my legs turning, I don't know if I could give that extra non-existant energy rush to step it up even further. I guess that's just one of the many reasons why they're pros and I have a day job!

[Fixed]

i like the landscape and a bunch of cats riding bikes
cheers

[93legendti]

Evans makes Mancebo look smooth on the bike.

[rustychisel]

Evans makes Mancebo look smooth on the bike.


True, but did you not see Merckx or Hinault on their bikes? They made strong handlebars in those days, they needed them. I was thinking about Mancebo last night, missing seeing him crab up the mountains.

[acorn_user]

Bernhard Kohl has an interesting style too. He just about makes up for no Mancebo, with his head to one side....

[93legendti]

True, but did you not see Merckx or Hinault on their bikes? They made strong handlebars in those days, they needed them. I was thinking about Mancebo last night, missing seeing him crab up the mountains.
Yes, I did and I don't think EM or BH looked bad on their bikes at all. When Evans stands and tries to accelerate I want to shield my eyes and look away.

[thinpin]

I always wonder how stages like this would play-out if the riders didn't have radio; being fed the time stats of other riders or being told someone is in difficulty. Do you think time gaps would be greater? Or, does that not even matter? There has to be a psychological advantage or motivator to know that if you could just gain X-secs, then you're in yellow tonight.

Yes indeed, remember the 87 Delgado/Roche tussle on La Plagne. No radios, 2 riders riding their own race all out but with different styles.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Evans makes Mancebo look smooth on the bike.

. . . he has his helmet on straight. :D

BBD

[93legendti]

. . . he has his helmet on straight. :D

BBD
It's a start.

[paczki]

Just got done watching. That was brilliant. Menchov looks like he's very strong. We were all reminiscing about Mancebo too when we saw Kohl. But I actually thought Evans looked a little more fluid than in the past. And yes, Eddy Merckx climbing was the grimmest sort of beauty.

[Ray]

Man, all this talk of funky, ugly climbers and nobody's mentioned Fernando Escartin? That guy was a crime against humanity. He wrestled his bike up every climb.

-Ray

[weaponsgrade]

I stayed up a good part of the night watching and just finished. Voigt looked like he was tearing everybody a new one.

[93legendti]

Man, all this talk of funky, ugly climbers and nobody's mentioned Fernando Escartin? That guy was a crime against humanity. He wrestled his bike up every climb.

-Ray
Agreed, I forgot about him. Terrible to watch.

[CPP]

Botero was also someone who muscled their bike up hills

[Fixed]

Yes, I did and I don't think EM or BH looked bad on their bikes at all. When Evans stands and tries to accelerate I want to shield my eyes and look away.
+1 maybe it has something to do with the collarbone evans always seems to need someone to go for him and he catch their wheel ..Imho he lacks the killer thing
cheers

[93legendti]

+1 maybe it has something to do with the collarbone evans always seems to need someone to go for him and he catch their wheel ..Imho he lacks the killer thing cheers

I agree.

In general, I was surprised that the top guys were attacking so often and so soon on the last climb. It seemed nervous and almost desperate. It reminded me a bit of the climb of Alpe d'Huez in '03. All of the heavy attackers on that stage (Hamilton, Beloki, Vino, Mayo) weren't there on the last mountain top finish when the TdF was decided...It seemed Menchov just rode steady and Vandevelde as well.

[jvp]

Evans race plan seems to be to just hang out in the best group for his strategery of winning in paris, plus put in a good time trial. No attacks or drama. It's boring to watch him, like watching levi last year, but I understand why he rides like that.

[paczki]

Evans race plan seems to be to just hang out in the best group for his strategery of winning in paris, plus put in a good time trial. No attacks or drama. It's boring to watch him, like watching levi last year, but I understand why he rides like that.

Worked for Indurain.

[jvp]

Evans could at least look into his rival's eyes, like the "cobra", just before he maintains the designated tempo for final victory.

[93legendti]

Worked for Indurain.
Disagree. Big Mig NEVER shied away from an attack or HUGE turn on the front when decision time came. I still remember him stringing out the pack on the Ventoux in '94; Jalabert's double take when Big Mig bridged to Jalabert's group on the Alpe in '94; Big Mig's attack on the mountain top Pyrenean stage in '91 (Chiappucci won the stage); Big Mig chasing alone after Zuelle alone in '95 on to La Plagne ; Big Mig's attack in '95 that towed Bruyneel to the line; Big Mig and Tony Romminger duking it out in the Alps in in '93, etc. I think Johan Bruyneel said sitting on Mig's wheel was like "riding a train". As Phil said "this man is frightening".

[Keith A]

I've actually found the whole race this year to be very interesting...mainly because you don't know what to expect. And the last two stages have been great! Riccò certainly put in some fierce attacks on Sunday and I was impressed at how quickly he bridged up to Lang.

I agree with the other poster who wondered what this race would be like with Contador and Astana there.

[paczki]

Disagree. Big Mig NEVER shied away from an attack or HUGE turn on the front when decision time came. I still remember him stringing out the pack on the Ventoux in '94; Jalabert's double take when Big Mig bridged to Jalabert's group on the Alpe in '94; Big Mig's attack on the mountain top Pyrenean stage in '91 (Chiappucci won the stage); Big Mig chasing alone after Zuelle alone in '95 on to La Plagne ; Big Mig's attack in '95 that towed Bruyneel to the line; Big Mig and Tony Romminger duking it out in the Alps in in '93, etc. I think Johan Bruyneel said sitting on Mig's wheel was like "riding a train". As Phil said "this man is frightening".

When necessary, but his preferred mode was chugging.

[Ray]

Evans race plan seems to be to just hang out in the best group for his strategery of winning in paris, plus put in a good time trial. No attacks or drama. It's boring to watch him, like watching levi last year, but I understand why he rides like that.
I thought both Evans and Menchov actually tried to attack a couple of times yesterday. They just don't have the acceleration to make it stick. Cadel got a pretty good gap at one point, but I think the group was back together within about 30 seconds. I can't fault any of those guys. I can't even begin to imagine what it would take to hang with the groupetto for even ONE col on one of these stages, let alone hang with the front group, let alone ATTACK the front group, let alone make an attack stick. Being able to attack and accelerate on those climbs well enough to get away from the lead group in these races is not a human skill. Its for very little people or highly drugged people or highly drugged little people. IMHO. Call me cynical - I still love to watch.

-Ray

[coopdog]

Evans race plan seems to be to just hang out in the best group for his strategery of winning in paris, plus put in a good time trial. No attacks or drama. It's boring to watch him, like watching levi last year, but I understand why he rides like that.

Exactly. I don't think we'll see Evans try to put time on his competitors in the mountains like LA did. He just wants to keep them right there with him. His plan is to win this Tour at the Time Trial.

[Fixed]

bro no one seems to climb in the t.d.f. like L.A. did
out of the saddle for 5 k and he was no flyweight
or am i wrong ? cheers

[paczki]

"Secondly, Cadel Evans (whose collarbones are only intact after yesterday's crash because they have both been replaced by titanium) proved he is in fact a great stage racer by taking the Maillot Jaune by one second. (Anybody can blast his way up a mountainside in a distateful display of power, but it takes a certain dignified restraint to sidle up behind people and pilfer seconds the way Cadel does, like an uninvited party guest nabbing cocktail weiners.)"

[bike <3'er]

bro no one seems to climb in the t.d.f. like L.A. did
out of the saddle for 5 k and he was no flyweight
or am i wrong ? cheers

Contador can do that too. He can climb a wall like a spider, sprint for short bursts and also talk smack to his opponent. Lance was great uphill, he rode a pogo stick.

Stages 15, 16 and 17 are where it's at, the mountains. It's fairly flat until then. Stage 17, L'Alpe-d'Huez should be epic.

http://www.letour.fr/2008/TDF/LIVE/us/1700/etape_par_etape.html

[max_powers]

Jens Voight, nice work on the stage

Always great to watch him

[paczki]

Jens Voight, nice work on the stage

Always great to watch him

And Spartacus! He powered up the Tourmalet!

[CNY rider]

Jens Voight, nice work on the stage

Always great to watch him

Yep, I think his performance was the most impressive of all in that stage.
He is such a professional.

[mosca]

I thought both Evans and Menchov actually tried to attack a couple of times yesterday. They just don't have the acceleration to make it stick. Cadel got a pretty good gap at one point, but I think the group was back together within about 30 seconds. I can't fault any of those guys. I can't even begin to imagine what it would take to hang with the groupetto for even ONE col on one of these stages, let alone hang with the front group, let alone ATTACK the front group, let alone make an attack stick. Being able to attack and accelerate on those climbs well enough to get away from the lead group in these races is not a human skill. Its for very little people or highly drugged people or highly drugged little people. IMHO. Call me cynical - I still love to watch.

-RayWell said.

And I find there's something strangely appealing about Cadel's lack of, ummm, panache. He's very relatable somehow. They say the great ones make it look easy - well, Cadel may become the exception to that rule.

[BBB]

Disagree. Big Mig NEVER shied away from an attack or HUGE turn on the front when decision time came. I still remember him stringing out the pack on the Ventoux in '94; Jalabert's double take when Big Mig bridged to Jalabert's group on the Alpe in '94; Big Mig's attack on the mountain top Pyrenean stage in '91 (Chiappucci won the stage); Big Mig chasing alone after Zuelle alone in '95 on to La Plagne ; Big Mig's attack in '95 that towed Bruyneel to the line; Big Mig and Tony Romminger duking it out in the Alps in in '93, etc. I think Johan Bruyneel said sitting on Mig's wheel was like "riding a train". As Phil said "this man is frightening".

I think there is a large mis-apprehension about Big Mig's riding style (as 93legendti points out) and it is a mistake to equate the way Indurain rode with the way Evans is riding.

Indurain's tactics were based largely on crushing his rivals in the first long time trial, which he did in '92 and '93 and/or consolidating his gains by one big attack, if necessary, and then riding defensively. So for example, in '91 he just beat LeMond in the first long time trial and then attacked on the decent of the Tourmalet, waited for Chiappucci and then the two of them rode together over the final two climbs with Chiappucci taking the stage and Indurain the race lead. In '92 Big Mig smashed everyone in the first long time trial and pretty much rode defensively for the remainder of the race. In '93 Big Mig smashed his rivals in the first long time trial and spent the remainder of the race chasing down a very attacking Rominger. In '94 Big Mig beat Rominger for about 2 minutes in the first long tt and then went on the attack on Hautacam, largely because Rominger crumbled due to a case of the sh*ts. And so forth.

Evans rides somewhat differently. He does not have the same ability against the watch as Big Mig, nor are the time trials 60 or more kilometers as in Indurain's day. Nor does he have the ability to make one killer blow in the mountains. He rides a fairly calculating race and rides seemingly to the limit of his ability. If Evans could smash the field in one killer blow ala Indurain or Armstrong, does anyone really think he'd be content with merely making his rivals? It may not be exciting, but it gets the job done.

[Darrell]

attack on the big cols and put time into your rivals
You don't do it unless you hope to gain some thing like
Because you need the time buffer for the TT
So of course they need and want to attack.
It is many who want to go up the road against one.
and they do have the Alps to come and summit finishes.
You may not win a grand tour on one day, but you can lose it in one day.

Better for us Aussies that Andy had it by one second rather than Cadel, but oh well.

also do not forget what Big Mig's haematicrits were at the TDF!

Cheers from I have many a kilometer sitting in the back seat of our Euro team car hugging the spare wheels Dazza.

PS. If Cadel rode a steel lugged frame that "Planes" then he whip every one, he just has to please /appease his sponsors and thus flog em all in the TT. :beer:

[regularguy412]

I thought both Evans and Menchov actually tried to attack a couple of times yesterday. They just don't have the acceleration to make it stick. Cadel got a pretty good gap at one point, but I think the group was back together within about 30 seconds. I can't fault any of those guys. I can't even begin to imagine what it would take to hang with the groupetto for even ONE col on one of these stages, let alone hang with the front group, let alone ATTACK the front group, let alone make an attack stick. Being able to attack and accelerate on those climbs well enough to get away from the lead group in these races is not a human skill. Its for very little people or highly drugged people or highly drugged little people. IMHO. Call me cynical - I still love to watch.

-Ray

Those who do not ride bikes find it difficult to understand how precisely 'right on' you are about this, Ray.

Mike in AR:beer:

[paczki]

Someone who was there sure thought they were attacking:

"I felt fine, but they [Evans and Menchov] were not working together, we were attacking the crap out of each other. It was the worst place to be. We were doing these massive surges. That probably killed us more than anything" Christian VandeVelde