Click,click,click,click,......

[Sandy]

I have been hearing a clicking sound on my Ottrott, which I never heard for the first several thousand miles. I now have about 5300 miles on the bike. The clicking is getting a little louder and until yesterday, occurred only when I was off the saddle. It now appears to be happening even when on the saddle, when I am pushing harder and thus producing more torque. It is not the wheels, since I have 2 sets and the noise occurs on both. It appears to be coming from the bottom bracket or pedal area.

It has been suggested that the noise is a function of the difference in materials in the ti bb shell and the bb. I am using Dura-Ace 10. Could I need a new bb?

Any other possibilities? Should I simply take it to the dealer?

Thanks for any ideas that you might have.


Seeking Silence,

Sometimes Silent Serotta Sandy

[Andreu]

Or chain?

[Sandy]

I had a new chain at 4,000 miles. I don't think that it is the chain.

Chained to Kevan, :)

Sandy

[Kevan]

boy is he set for a charge tomorrow! :D

[toaster]

For me, once, it was remedied by checking and re-tightening the front skewer.

[Kevan]

your BB needs some cinching. :cool:

[christian]

Ah, the dreaded bottom bracket click! Hardest bike problem of all to diagnose. I have to say, the only way to find this is to isolate each and every component down there separately.

First thing I do is have a look at the chainring bolts. That's probably it in only 10% of cases, but it's easy enough to check.

Then, I start looking at pedals/cleats. I think the pedals and cleats are the cause of drivetrain clicks in about 80% of cases. So put on some rubber block pedals and go for a ride. Be sure to have a look at the cleat/shoe interface, too. My wife had a clop-clop-clop last week, and it was because the SPD backing plate was loose on her Carnacs.

If those don't do it, I start having a look at the chain/r.d. to see if there is a stiff link or r.d. problem.

My experience is that it is extremely rarely the crank or bb, at least on square-taper cranks. I don't have any personal experience with DA10.

Cheers,
- Christian

[Sandy]

On one set of wheels, I have Salsa skewers and on the other set, I have Dura-Ace skewers.


Sometimes Seen Spinning Salsa Skewers Sometimes Seen Spinning Shimano Skewers Sometimes Simply Seen Spinning,


Sandy

[Sandy]

Want to play Spin The Bottle? :) :)


Sandy

[Kevan]

play out in the traffic now. :confused:

[zap]

Is this the same problem we pointed out to you last month?

[Sandy]

Thanks for the suggestions. Seem well thought out.

Sandy

[Sandy]

Different noise. Same bike. Same cyclist.

I am now a little lower and a little more stretched out on my bike. I am just as fat.

When is the quilter going to start posting on the forum?

Maybe she could make a little quilt for my rubber ducky Delores, and a rather large quilt for me for the times Delores and I snuggle together watching TV. Perhaps she could make Delores a second quilt to match my bike, so that Delores could ride with me and stay warm in my saddle bag. It would be much appreciated. :)

Quietly Quickly Quilting,

Delores and Sandy

[theprep]

Sandy

Here is my top ten Click list from the last couple of years:

1. presta valve extenders, tighten and use teflon tape
2. cable along frame tubes (donuts were too hard)
3. seat rails or seat pin needing grease
4. carbon headset spacers change with humidity, use alloy
5. seat post too long and clicking away down in the darkness
6. grease needed on sliding surfaces of QR levers, tighten
7. Swap wheels to rule out
8. Test ride with sneakers to rule out cleats pedals
9. tighten cable routing plate on underside of bottom bracket shell
10. tighten/grease chainring bolts

I hope one on these suggestions works. good luck.

[FlaRider]

Sandy,

Make sure the seat post clamp is properly tightened and that the contact points of the saddle rails with the clamp and the saddle rails with the body of the saddle are well lubricated with a lubricant such as White Lightning. About a year ago, I kept hearing an annoying click sound on one of my bikes and could have sworn it came from the BB area or the pedals. I had the BB checked, the cranks bolt tightened, the pedals lubed, all to no avail. It turned out to be a lack of lubrication of the saddle rails...Hope this helps.

Rafael

[Big Dan]

A couple of weeks ago I was getting a similar click and it ended up being the cable stops at the headtube. When I was getting off the saddle they were somehow twisting. I did the cables again making sure the cable ends sit properly. Some of those black cable stops are longer than others, I think the long ones flex and don't stay in place. Good Luck

:D

[BumbleBeeDave]

I agree with Christian. Check your chainring bolts first, but be especially careful about torque, especially if you have aluminum bolts. I do on my FSA and broke one while checking them.

Then switch out your pedals and check that. It ended up being my problem several weeks ago. Changed pedals, click disappeared.

BBDave

[Ozz]

it's the paparazzi following you around on that swell bike of yours! ;)

[christian]

People are making a very good point about seat/seat post. I've also found this to be a trouble spot. At this point, I'm resigned to the fact that my B.17 is the most comfortable saddle in the world, and makes the most racket. Sounds like a mule in heat. Wait, mules are sterile. An equus asinus in heat, then. (Try that, censorbot!)

On the plus side, it's probably obscuring some drivetrain noise. ;)

- Christian

Confidential to Brooks aficionados:
1) Yes, it's the nose bolt.
2) No, there is no (permanent) way to stop it.

[victoryfactory]

In my experience, a tick or clic sound is rarely tha BB (as mentioned by
Christian)

Often, it is caused by road grit in a cable stop or front deraileur.
The seat rails/seatpost interface and bar/stem area is also common.

One diagnostic trick that sometimes works is this:

place bike on floor, hold seat with one hand and stem with the other hand.
place your foot on the top of the crank (where the bolt is) and push.Hard.
A few times.
This often flexes the frame enough to make the clic audible.

VF, silence is golden

[Ken Lehner]

...does the clicking happen if you ride no-hands? If it doesn't, I'd look into your handlebars and stem. Also, does it click once per 360 degree rotation of the chainring, or twice, or not at all related to the chainring?

[fjaws]

Plumbers teflon tape on the BB threads should fix it right up!

[fjaws]

People are making a very good point about seat/seat post.


This doesn't seem a logical conclusion based on the fact that initially it only happened when standing. :no:

[Kevan]

fjaws. He's got it. :D

No Sandy... adhesive tape won't do. :no:

[Big Dan]

A dry seatpost can creak if you are standing up and really cranking... :crap:

[drbob]

I would agree with FLARider...in fact I was on the phone the other day with Paul Levine discussing just this subject about my Ottrott. His suggestion was to completely take off the saddle and clamps, thoroughly clean them, apply a thin coat of grease and then reassemble.....and in my case it worked like a charm.

[fjaws]

A dry seatpost can creak if you are standing up and really cranking... :crap:


perhaps if you're riding a bike made from jungle-gym tubing. We're talking about a SEROTTA. :)

[Big Dan]

Not funny , maybe you should try again..... :bike:

[Kevan]

Granted creaks, pops, and clicks can come from a variety of sources, but our man Sans initially reported that the sound is coming from the crank or BB area, so let's give him the credit of isolating the sound's general source.

Any mechanic will try to fix the easy things first. First he'll likely know the bike, the rider and the level of care that's been given the steed. Based on just that much information he can start narrowing the probable causes. But just in case he should take the bike for a short spin out in the parking lot and see if he can locate that "click". Back in the shop, is it the pedals? Are they tight against the crank, do they need a little lube on the spindle? Do they appear clean and functional? Did you bring your shoe? No? ...hmmm. Next.. the crankarms... are they tight and solidly mounted? Are they easily tightened? Next... are the ring bolts tight? Twist...twist...yup. Next... Let's pop off the crank and resecure the BB which is the most drastic step. As previously stated, the teflon tape usually puts a fix to any "click" coming from the BB.

Sans, tell us how it worked out.

[RichMc]

This type of problem drove me nuts for a couple of weeks. Finally fixed it by tightening the cleat spring tension (cleat release) on the pedals (Shimano). No more noise.

[fjaws]

...........do they need a little lube on the spindle?


Sure way to produce a creak in the BB area! Causes overtightening and will eventually wear out the crank arm. Consult your LBS if this is in your bag-o-tricks.

[Dekonick]

I rode with Sandy yesterday and noticed his 'creak'. It happens mostly when he gets out of the saddle (so it is not a seat post issue) and cranks hard. It seems to happen at the 1-3oclock position, and to me it sounded like it was from the BB area. I circled him several times while he re-produced the click. It could be the chain ring bolts, the BB, or perhaps his pedals? It kinda had that Ti creak sound - you know the one? I wasn't sure if the Ottrott could have this problem, but it seems to me that a Dura-ace BB probably isnt Ti. Could this be the problem?

I did adjust his rear der. as it was in need of a little tweaking (A local shop charged him $18 for that last time! Isn't that nuts??? For just a few turns on a knob? I have seen many people come into my firends shop and if its something that simple, he just repairs it and sends them on their way.)

I am almost 100% positive the creak/click Sandy is having (other than the Super Secret Kevin Silent Service Spies taking pictures) is from the BB / crank area.

Dunno - but it is NOT his wheels, skewers, seatpost. His headset seemed tight.

Anyone able to help stupified serotta sandy? :confused:

[christian]

Sure way to produce a creak in the BB area! Causes overtightening and will eventually wear out the crank arm. Consult your LBS if this is in your bag-o-tricks.

This is utter hogwash. An elementary understanding of how a press-fit interface works will make obvious the falsity of the above.

Press-fit interfaces used in industry, and under much greater stress than a press-fit crank, use lubed bolts and lubed taper faces. One should lube the bolt and taper faces and install the crank. Testing has shown that if you grease the tapers and bolt, and attempt to overtorque the crank, the crank bolt will break before any damage to the crank is realized.

Cranks are damaged by continuing to increase the torque on the crank bolt once the force from the crank bolt and press fit are equalized during the initial installation. This will eventually cause the crank to migrate too far up the taper and crack the crank at the corner of the spindle hole.

So lube the bolt and spindle, but don't continually tighten your crank bolts. They loosen because the crank migrates ever so slightly up the spindle. Don't take up the slack.

BTW, DA10 cranks, that Sandy is using, don't use a press-fit.

Cheers,
- Christian

[TimB]

My last creaking episode was caused by the bolts holding the crankarms to the splined BB being a wee bit under-tight. It had driven me nuts - changed pedals on the bike, new cleats (Look) etc etc. Finally dawned on me that TooTall had told me once to check these exact bolts for tightness from time to time, and hey, whaddyaknow, he was right.

[FierteTi52]

[QUOTE=christian] Testing has shown that if you grease the tapers and bolt, and attempt to overtorque the crank, the crank bolt will break before any damage to the crank is realized.

I used to grease both the spindle taper and the bolts. Then I read it was best not to grease the spindle taper. My LBS told me the same. I have done it without grease since then and have not had any problems.
Jeff

[vaxn8r]

Take out the BB, clean it up and reinstall with new grease or teflon tape. Ti and AL interface are known for creak-creaking.

In my experience, it usually IS the BB. If you find that it isn't then start down the esoteric list of weird possibilities. But first start where the problem most likely is.

[arsegas]

I've experienced a similar clicking sound a few months ago, and in my case at least, replacing the bottom bracket fixed the issue.

[csb]

gloria + i bet the ticking mysteriously goes bye bye

[Sandy]

If Gloria ever reads my silly thread about marriage and cycling, I fear that Scared Sandy will be going bye bye, and not so mysteriously.

Sandy

[fjaws]

This is utter hogwash. An elementary understanding of how a press-fit interface works will make obvious the falsity of the above.

Press-fit interfaces used in industry, and under much greater stress than a press-fit crank, use lubed bolts and lubed taper faces.

Cheers,
- Christian


Now that we have an Industry expert, maybe you can explanin why a press fit interface would require greasing so as not to creak.

Grease whatever you want. Carbon seatpost............grease it. Bottom bracket spindle..............grease it. Next time your at your LBS buy a spoke wrench too. All the above will ensure the LBS can keep the doors open.

[christian]

Now that we have an Industry expert, maybe you can explanin why a press fit interface would require greasing so as not to creak.


The reason you grease the tapers of a bottom bracket spindle is to prevent galling of the crank during installation, and to ensure that the torque measurement on the wrench provides a correct estimate of the torque applied to the bolt (and, in turn, the force pressing against the bottom bracket taper).

This, in turn, ensures that you install the crankarms with a correct torque value (ie sufficiently tight). For noises that actually stem from the bottom bracket/crank interface (which I maintain are quite few), the cause is generally that the press fit is insufficiently tight.

BTW, beyond the installation phase, there is no grease whatsoever at the press fit interface. In the first few pedal strokes, the fretting between the crank arm and bb spindle displaces all the grease on the interface. The lubrication is there solely to facilitate accurate installation.

Perhaps you could explain how not greasing the tapers is supposed to be helpful, or how (assuming correct torque values and no galling) a non-greased bb/crank interface is superior to a greased one, since neither has any grease after a few load cycles.

Or?

- Christian

BTW, greasing carbon seatposts is contraindicated. Not that I care, as I prefer to use seatposts that fail in a non-catastrophic manner.

[fjaws]

The reason you grease the tapers of a bottom bracket spindle is to prevent galling of the crank during installation, and to ensure that the torque measurement on the wrench provides a correct estimate of the torque applied to the bolt (and, in turn, the force pressing against the bottom bracket taper).

This, in turn, ensures that you install the crankarms with a correct torque value (ie sufficiently tight). For noises that actually stem from the bottom bracket/crank interface (which I maintain are quite few), the cause is generally that the press fit is insufficiently tight.

BTW, beyond the installation phase, there is no grease whatsoever at the press fit interface. In the first few pedal strokes, the fretting between the crank arm and bb spindle displaces all the grease on the interface. The lubrication is there solely to facilitate accurate installation.

Perhaps you could explain how not greasing the tapers is supposed to be helpful, or how (assuming correct torque values and no galling) a non-greased bb/crank interface is superior to a greased one, since neither has any grease after a few load cycles.

.


Even by your logic (which I don't agree with) grease is only used for the installation phase and all grease is displaced shortly thereafter. There is a creaking problem on this bike that is believed to be coming from the BB area. Hopefully we can assume the installation phase is complete. I will agree with you that greasing the threads on the crank bolt is required for proper torque but not the spindle. To apply the logic from another industry, using equipment that in some cases weighs tons, and applying it to your sub-20 lb bicycle I think is illogical.

Here is what Park has to say:

"Cranks are pressed tight onto the tapered square spindle. The square spidle is made with a slight upward sloping taper. The crank square fitting also has a slight taper. The crank bolt or nut acts as the pressing tool and forces the arm up the slope of the spindle. The bolt or nut must be tight enough to keep from loosening, but not so tight that the spindle splites and damages crank.............

................Aluminum cranks typically do not require lubrication of this press fit. Aluminum by its nature is self-lubricating as it is covered with a thin layer of oxidation. Adequate torque is typically enough to keep arms from creaking."

Couldn't have said it as well myself, but in my experience this is dead on. I've seen many ruined cranks from greasing. Greased, retightened, greased, retightend......... something has to give. My money is on the Aluminium crank, not the steel BB spindle. Eventually the crank doesn't fit properly because the taper has been enlarged.

[va rider]

Sandy --

I've got the solution. Put on your riding gear, load bike in car, drive to Spokes in Alexandria, have Freddy fix, test bike riding on roads behind the shop, take bike home.

Hey, if you and/or Dekonick are interested in riding tomorrow, I could meet you guys for a ride.

Shoot me an e-mail at sstein at gwu dot edu if you are interested.

- Scott

[Serotta PETE]

Sandy, since you will have the bike in the car - - just drive on down to Raleigh and SPokes will fix it. (While he is doing that, you can pack some of his toys in your car. Gloria and I will be out riding the motorcycle :) :)

[christian]

Hopefully we can assume the installation phase is complete.

None of what you and I are discussing here has _anything_ to do with Sandy's problem. Sandy isn't riding a tapered-spindle bottom bracket.

To apply the logic from another industry, using equipment that in some cases weighs tons, and applying it to your sub-20 lb bicycle I think is illogical.

Who said anything about equipment weighing tons? Don't obfuscate the issue. Just demonstrate what putative problem is caused by greasing the spindle. I say, "greasing the spindle assures correct torque during installation." Do you disagree with that? Why?


Here is what Park has to say:

The bolt or nut must be tight enough to keep from loosening, but not so tight that the spindle splites and damages crank.............

This is clearly incorrect. As I've previously stated, you cannot torque a crank bolt sufficiently hard to split or damage a crank during installation. The crank bolt will snap first. If you'd like, I can send you a set of old Shimano 600 crankarms to try it out. Crank arms split (at the spindle) if and only if the slack of the crank bolt is taken up after successive load cycles, and the crank is forced up the spindle gradually. This happens whether or not you lube the spindle.


Couldn't have said it as well myself, but in my experience this is dead on. I've seen many ruined cranks from greasing. Greased, retightened, greased, retightend......... something has to give.

Wait a minute. When you say retightened, do you mean re-mounted, or taking up slack on the bolt after the initial installation. As I've outlined, taking up slack on the bolt will eventually split the crank. But this will happen whether the tapers are greased or not.

In that scenario, what makes you think that greased tapers are more likely to require "re-tightening" than non-greased tapers? Certainly, the mechanics of a press fit don't lead to that conclusion.

Do you degrease your tapers before installing the crankarms?

- Christian

[Lost Weekend]

Look what you've started now Sandy :banana: And I bet you don't even have a bottom bracket thingy on your bike :D

[shaq-d]

christian, nice posts.

sd

[Serotta PETE]

Sandy, what fixed the problem??

[Kevan]

before things get out of hand and there's a grease gun fight... what happened?

Wait a minute... you were riding with your marbles in your back pocket again, weren't cha?! :D

[Serotta PETE]

:no: No marbles allowed

[Sandy]

I am going to change pedals and give that a try. I know that it is not the wheels or saddle. I guess pedals or bottom bracket.If Gloria is feeling well and the weather is good, how about a visit with you and Spoke and crew down in North Carolina, in the next few weeks?

Click, click, click,.....

Sandy

[kenth]

I have been having the exact same symptoms with my DA/Ottrott since about mid summer. New this past February; about 4000m now. Had it in the shop in late August and they tightened/lubed most everything - clicking milder but still clear. Happens for me seated or standing, hands or no hands. Definitely torque-related - never a sound on a flat stretch soft pedaling, but I'm a metronome going up hills. I checked and rechecked skewers, but I have the same sense that it's coming from the BB area. I do plan to swap out the pedals at some point, but after that I think the BB is my #1 suspect.

[Serotta PETE]

I am going to change pedals and give that a try. I know that it is not the wheels or saddle. I guess pedals or bottom bracket.If Gloria is feeling well and the weather is good, how about a visit with you and Spoke and crew down in North Carolina, in the next few weeks?

Click, click, click,.....

Sandy

You are more than welcome. Bring the Dr, Smiley, Karen, Flydhest. We also are picking up a yellow lab puppy on Sunday. PETE

[Sandy]

.....click,click'click,click.click,click,...., SILENCE!!!!! I believe the culprit has been found. I had a 1 mm shim put in my right shoe a couple of months ago. A longer screw was used. One of the other screws worked its way out, and a second longer screw was used. Then another screw worked its way out and all the screws became loose. I sensed that the problem was the shoe and the loose screws.

I just got back from riding about 9 miles to test out the clicking noise, using my other pair of shoes. The clicking was replaced by silence.

I sometimes, or should I say often, think that a lot of you would prefer my silly threads be replaced by silent threads.

THANKS for all of you who gave their ideas. I do appreciate the help.

Silly or Silent Sandy

[gasman]

are you really saying that you have a screw loose ? :rolleyes:

Or loose screws? Or screwey ?(is that a word?)

[Sandy]

Lots of loose screws, bolts, and more importantly, lots of cogs that don't seem to mesh together very well.

Screwball Sandy

[Kevan]

a walking hardware store. A little rusty, a few nails and screws bent, and guaranteed to have more nuts than ...

wait, I don't like the direction this post is going. :D

[Sandy]

Tick,tick,tick,tick,tick,..... Lots of rusty nails and screws, and guaranteed to get rid of a nut.... It's coming your way........ :D :D

Sandman

[zap]

I had a similiar problem last year. The screws that hold one of the carbon plates on my sidi shoes was rubbing on top of the back clip on the Look CX 7 pedals. I liked the shoes, so I sold the pedals on ebay for close to what I paid for them new, got spd-sl's and silence from that part of the bike since.

Final coup was losing that flexy use seat post.