Old guy walks into a bike shop...

[FMS_rider]

I know this is not just an age issue (it happens to younger guys as well); but I am quite sure it does get worse with age (I am 63). When I walk into bike shops, I am almost always met with a perfunctory ‘can I help you’ accompanied by dismissive body language. When I ask questions the answer always assumes that I know nothing about bikes and the sales person usually continues with the same tone even after it should have become apparent that I am a serious cyclist, and genuine conversations never develop. After many years and 100s of such encounters I am pretty well desensitized to that treatment, but at some level it still hurts.

What is really puzzling is that attitude makes no sense business-wise, since I suspect that older ‘guys’ (women as well as men) account for a disproportionate percentage of high end sales. I just don’t get it.

Based on my experiences at Cronometro in Madison WI, which has become my lbs, I have come to the conclusion that creating an age-friendly environment boils down to making personality a high priority in hiring. The first person I encountered on my first trip to Cronometro was a mechanic, Mike Teff. I do almost all of my own bike service, but I had discovered some welding splatter in the threads when I was replacing a bottom bracket and don’t own the proper tool, so I took it there for service. Mike gave me a broad smile and I ended up having a long spirited conversation with him. Since Cronometro sells high-end stuff one could be cynical and assume that their staff has been instructed to be particularly nice to old guys for practical reasons. However I was dressed like a bum (my usual attire) and the bike I brought in was old and I certainly did not look like a good prospect for anything other than an occasional repair or inexpensive widget. When I returned to pick up the bike the sales person I encountered was equally friendly and it was again clearly genuine. Granted, I only adopted Cronometro as my lbs after it became apparent that everyone there is also exceedingly competent, but if it were not for the friendly environment I would not have the sense of loyalty I have to the place and make the long trip over there (~25 min drive) to purchase small things (I also purchased a custom Legend there, am about to purchase a second custom bike there, and Colin O’Brien, the owner, is going to do the fitting for my Kirk when my number comes up)

Until recently Cronometro and one other shop (ProCycle, a relatively new small shop in Mazomanie WI where the owner does the sales himself) were the only old-guy-friendly shops I had encountered, but I am happy to report that I recently found a 3rd shop where I felt like I was an actual human being: Liberty Cycles in Asheville NC. Serotta Pete recommended them in a post before the Asheville Gathering. I interacted with 3 sales people there and felt that way with each one, even though they were extremely busy.

Comments?

Lew

[PBWrench]

I think a lot of the treatment we receive as customers is a function of both the personality and maturity of the mostly young staff, as well as how busy the shop may be at the time of the interaction, and less a function of our age. I make it a point to bring a 12 pack of beer to my lbs on occasion, and therefore foster a casual connection with shop staff that I otherwise wouldn't have. Many of the young staff are also into mtn biking, thereby also reducing "common language." The owners/managers tend to have more experience, a bit more freedom to chat and the real interest in schmoozing, whether it leads to a sale or not. When it does, that establishes a relationship leading to the LBS' greater understanding of your requirements. Of course, the true impediment to more chrono-friendly discourse is your penchant for Shimano widgets. :no:

[FMS_rider]

Of course, the true impediment to more chrono-friendly discourse is your penchant for Shimano widgets. :no: Them's fightin' words! (but I have to admit that your Campy equipped Legend is absolutely stunning --the nicest I have seen, mine included; also ~1 year from now you will be in for a pleasant surprise)

Lew

[Ti Designs]

Based on my experiences at Cronometro in Madison WI, which has become my lbs, I have come to the conclusion that creating an age-friendly environment boils down to making personality a high priority in hiring.

If that were the case I would probably be the manager of a Burger King by now.

[rwsaunders]

I still head to a LBS where their primary products are entry level bikes and repairs...they are an old time Schwinn dealer. The owner is the salesman, mechanic, chief cook and bottle washer. He doesn't have an issue with building up frames that were purchased on the Forum and he's a fixture at local charity rides. I have sent a lot of folks his way for their first bikes and for countless repairs. He actually wears a shop repair coat with his name on it...hardcore.

I guess what turned me off at a local shop recently is that when I was at the counter purchasing some tires and parts, the owner actually asked me if I was ever going to part with some "real money" and buy a new bike. Last visit for me.

[csm]

at the lbs I work part-time at, the older folks do buy a higher percentage of the expensive toys. I think the interaction is a two-way street though. it may be just as hard for the older customer to make a connection with the whipper snappers working there.

[Sandy]

OK, how about this thought- Go back to one of the shops, as an experiment, that treated you so poorly. Bring your gorgeous Legend Ti with you and be dressed ready to ride, shoes, helmet, and all. See how they react to you then. Bet it will be different than when you went "dressed as a bum".

Go to car dealer dressed in your bike clothes, with your bike, and see how they take care of you. Then go there some other day but in a suit.

Of course if the first words out of your mouth at the car dealer are: "I am looking to buy a full sized, fully equipped SUV at sticker price" step back until the 10 salesmen fight over who will serve you. In that case, you could wear anything you want or nothing at all. ;) :D

Sales people often make quick judgements. Sometimes they are right and sometimes they are incorrect. Reminds me of the movie- "Pretty Woman" with Julia Roberts- Remember the scene in which Julia Roberts went to the fancy dress shop dressed poorly and no one waited on her, but later when she was all dressed up, they wanted to help her?


Always dressed like a bum,


Sandy

[Kevan]

when I started buying cables and housing from them. They knew then that I had a handle of my own bike and with the purchase of other things, appreciated that I knew my stuff, or at least started to. (Boy...do I have them fooled.) I think too...riding with these guys has helped in my relationship with them.

I have to admit that I avoid conversations with the new kid who thinks he knows everything and thinks everyone should buy Assos everything.

[C5 Snowboarder]

I know this is not just an age issue (it happens to younger guys as well); but I am quite sure it does get worse with age (I am 63). When I walk into bike shops, I am almost always met with a perfunctory ‘can I help you’ accompanied by dismissive body language. When I ask questions the answer always assumes that I know nothing about bikes and the sales person usually continues with the same tone even after it should have become apparentLew

I see that often in other stores as well, some that come to mind are a high end clothing shop for women when you want to buy something for your lover at Valentines day or Christmas. Or a electronics shop /computer shop -- the salesperson assume you do not even know how to spell RAM.

Also tire shops -- I have been to 3 tire shops recently looking for new tires for my 280SL - which needs H speed rated tires. I tell them what I want in size including the H rating. They say they have so and so in stock and when I see the tires they are T or S rated. As soon as I ask them about that the attitude quickly changes to a no BS discussion and they apologized for misunderstanding or forgetting the H requirement.

[rasterdogs]

are why I love the internet.

I've been in several of the local 'high end' shops and have had trouble getting waited on.
It's not a problem.
I don't go back - get my stuff on the web.

The local Serotta shop might have been able to sell me a bike but failed
my customer satisfaction test. I'm getting a custom bike from folks I talked with at NAHBS.

The local Trek shop have been great - they are one of the main reasons I got a
Madone.

It will be interesting to see how things shake out over the next couple of years.

-JimD

[johnnymossville]

Speaking of bike shop treatment. I had something happen recently that kinda rubbed me the wrong way. I do a group ride twice some weeks, at two different bike shops that cater to a slightly different client base. Shop 1. (Serotta/Scott/Pinarello/Look/Colnago,...) and shop 2. (Trek/Felt/Kona,...) Anyway, at shop 1 a few weeks back we were heading out the door to start the ride and the shop owner was offering free water-bottles to the guys. He skipped right by me and I'm not gonna beg so that's that (It's just a waterbottle with the shop logo on it after all). Of course, I'm riding pretty much a rat bike wearing whatever mismatched stuff I find that's clean at the moment so that might've had something to do with it. But still,...

I know it shouldn't have bothered me and really it doesn't in the grand scheme of things, but they'll never get any of my business in the future unless somehow they earn my respect again. Shop 2 on the other hand has always treated me great so that's where I'll be spending more time.

Your post reminded me of that.

[djg]

If that were the case I would probably be the manager of a Burger King by now.

He said "high" priority, not "only" priority.

You have to show you really want it. For example, have you practiced saying, "would you like some fries with that"? If you can't talk the talk, you can't wear the little paper hat.

[Kevan]

He would have been better off handing you a bottle, look you in the eye, and say something like, "Hope to see you visit the shop sometime soon.", with a big smile.

Nothing wrong with that.

[Ken Robb]

A few years ago I went into Nytro in San Diego County to look at Ultegra-level bikes. I was dressed in clothes appropriate to selling luxury homes and had parked my new BMW at the front door. The "salesman" told me I'd "have to" come back tomorrow because they were closing in 30 minutes and had to devote all their time to taking in the bikes from outside and closing up or they would be late for their training ride. Guess how many people I have steered away from that place. Realtors are often the first person new arrivals get to know and are often asked for advice on everything from insurance brokers to restaurants and babysitters and I loved referring people to places where I knew they would get treated right.

I'm guessing that really good salespeople in bike shops are the exception rather than the rule because good ones can make a lot more $$$ selling other things. Young people who are students and part-time employees can be really good with a little training to go with their natural enthusiasm. Heck they are already keen to know everything about the products.

The other probable source of good sales people can be retired folks who know sales and are bike nuts and don't need to make a lot of money any more. Once in a while I'll stop by my LBS and sell a bike for them. It's a high-traffic location and on weekends all the staff can be busy so I'll chat with a customer about their needs and sometimes take it to the point where they want to buy. I don't handle any $$ or paperwork. It's fun for me and helps the shop and the customer.

[Cdub]

As a sales person, i learn from these situatuions.

One shop here opened right by my house (high end stuff) I went in to see and look around. I rode a Colnago at the time and was pretty proud of it. (my first entry into high end bikes) the owner was there, asked me what I rode. I said Colnago Master X Light. He promptly informed me how bad Colnagos were and that they were all made in Asia. I prompltly left and told all my racer friends, all my non racer friends about it. I have gone back when I have been in a bind, but recently, the ownership changed, they brought in a guy, he really knows his stuff. I now visit them frequently.

I think it is all in the willingness to be friendly and help. A little knowledge goes a long way too.

[Ti Designs]

You have to show you really want it. For example, have you practiced saying, "would you like some fries with that"? If you can't talk the talk, you can't wear the little paper hat.

Uh, I was just talking about not being hired at the bike shop. The Burger King job is a no-brainer, literally. The sad thing is that after 20+ years the pay scale would be much better at BK. I'm not in the bike biz for the money, but it would be nice if WheelWorks sold fries.

As for the respect for the older customer, I came to Wheelworks as a student and skinny bike racer. I would have to say that I was one of the people that Lew is complaining about. I soon learned that cycling isn't a sport just for the young - and John Allis ripped my legs off every Tuesday morning. Now most of my coaching clients are over 50. On the flip side, when I start coaching the young racers the first ride always has a bit of "let's test the coach". It's part of gaining respect - I'm OK with that.

[TAW]

Several of my friends work at/own bike shops. I've been in the shop when someone comes in asking for ridiculous stuff or to work on their Wal Mart bike that got run over by the car. I've often thought it would be easy to develop a bad attitude when someone comes in who doesn't "appear" to be a serious cyclist. This is not excusing the attitude, because I'm sure we've all run into a shop employee with an arrogant air. It may not all be about age, however.

Plus, it seems that some "serious cyclists" and shop employees are both trying to prove how much they know.

[SadieKate]

IWhat is really puzzling is that attitude makes no sense business-wise, since I suspect that older ‘guys’ (women as well as men) account for a disproportionate percentage of high end sales. I just don’t get it. Welcome to my world at any age. I've been ignored in plenty of fly shops or been given "beginner" casting instructions when shopping for a high end rod before they've ever seen me cast. I loved the time I immediately pointed out that they'd done everything they could during the demo to detract from the fact that the rod was built without the spline and guides lined up, therefore I noticed that they were hiding that the rod would not lay out a straight cast.

I was asked by a car salesman once as I was completing the paperwork "if my husband knew I was there." I've learned that I can't shop for cars with my husband along as the salesman will ignore me even when I say "I'm looking for X" and even had my husband tell the salesman to talk to me not him with no improvement in the salesman's behavior.

I immediately walk out of any shop when the employee tells me that I should be buying something other than what I've asked about before asking me why I'm interested in that item. I've never seen it happen to my husband.

Bike shops (and fly shops) have gotten better, but internet forums are full of the same BS assumptions that women don't know as much as men. There are times I regret using a forum name that gives away my gender. I get rather sick of the patronizing remarks.

I also know from experience that the guy looking like an aging migrant ranch hand could be the retired CEO of Chevron.

It seems so easy just to be polite and helpful both in person and over the internet. You never know when the sale of a tube will morph into something bigger.

[Ginger]

Go SadieKate Go.

Yep.

(This doesn't necessarily apply to you FMS_Rider, you aren't alone in discovering the rudeness)

I find it somewhat entertaining that when males get treated like women do practically everywhere they take affront to the treatment.

And yet they expect that women are just being "sensitive"

Until they get to a point (due to weight, or age, or style of dress) where it happens to them for some reason.

[Sandy]

Welcome to my world at any age. I've been ignored in plenty of fly shops or been given "beginner" casting instructions when shopping for a high end rod before they've ever seen me cast. I loved the time I immediately pointed out that they'd done everything they could during the demo to detract from the fact that the rod was built without the spline and guides lined up, therefore I noticed that they were hiding that the rod would not lay out a straight cast.

I was asked by a car salesman once as I was completing the paperwork "if my husband knew I was there." I've learned that I can't shop for cars with my husband along as the salesman will ignore me even when I say "I'm looking for X" and even had my husband tell the salesman to talk to me not him with no improvement in the salesman's behavior.

I immediately walk out of any shop when the employee tells me that I should be buying something other than what I've asked about before asking me why I'm interested in that item. I've never seen it happen to my husband.

Bike shops (and fly shops) have gotten better, but internet forums are full of the same BS assumptions that women don't know as much as men. There are times I regret using a forum name that gives away my gender. I get rather sick of the patronizing remarks.

I also know from experience that the guy looking like an aging migrant ranch hand could be the retired CEO of Chevron.

It seems so easy just to be polite and helpful both in person and over the internet. You never know when the sale of a tube will morph into something bigger.

Sadiekate- Great post! Even though I could not understand a single word about the rod and a straight cast.

;) Sardine Sandy ;)

[Ti Designs]

Plus, it seems that some "serious cyclists" and shop employees are both trying to prove how much they know.

I just printed "shop idiot" on the back of a Wheelworks shirt...

[SadieKate]

Sadiekate- Great post! Even though I could not understand a single word about the rod and a straight cast.

;) Sardine Sandy ;)
Just think of trying to ride a straight line when the frame is horribly out of alignment and the bars are crooked. ;)

[SadieKate]

Go SadieKate Go.Thanks, ma'am.

I am absolutely flabbergasted by the business people who behave in a completely unprofessional manner in internet forums. Don't expect my business if you can't refrain from being rude, crude, crass and sexist.

[MilanoTom]

I also know from experience that the guy looking like an aging migrant ranch hand could be the retired CEO of Chevron.



Excellent post.

When I lived in South Carolina, one of my best friends was a 60-ish fellow who owned the oldest pawn shop in the city. He treated everybody who walked in that shop with the highest level of respect. We were talking one day and he shared a story to me. In his younger days (probably in the late 1940s or early 1950s), he worked in a jewelry store on commission, and the salespeople took turns at waiting on people who came in off the street. One day, the other salespeople spotted a poor-looking dirt farmer type coming toward the door, and they all disappeared, leaving him as the lone salesman. He said he was as cordial and polite to the farmer as he'd been taught to treat all of his customers. The farmer asked for a diamond ring for his wife, so my friend showed him what he had in the showcase. The farmer said he wanted something bigger. He pulled out a tray of better rings from one of the drawers, but the farmer said he wanted something bigger. At that point, my friend said he got permission from the owner to go to the safe and get the tray with the best rings that the store had. The farmer ended up selecting the most expensive ring in the store and pulled out a wad of bills (the type of wad that would, as they say, choke a horse) from his coveralls, explaining that when he'd married his wife thirty years earlier, he couldn't afford to buy her an engagement ring, so he'd been saving up for it ever since. Knowing my friend, he'd have treated the fellow the same way whether he had any money or not, but he said he learned that day never to judge a person by appearance.

Regards.
Tom

[Dino]

The root of it all is relationships. So many (salesmen) simply refuse to engage. There is not a standard formula that will yield standard results. (IE: a stock action does not always = a stock sale). Which means that the hard work is this: You have to stop and listen to your customer first. Listening means waiting your turn, and then engaging them accordingly.

I was at IKEA one day (I know, lame, but I won't go into the "why.") and I saw the best example ever of a clerk who was buried to her nose in customers, and yet had the whole group just loving her attitude and service. No one complained, even those waiting the longest. Point is, you are never too busy to take care of everyone. Those waiting will see that you are doing so, and will be happy to wait their turn for their good service too. If not, then they are the wrong customer (ala Henry Ford).

I think that customer care only becomes amplified the farther one reaches into recreational funds. No one wants to get hastled when shopping for something as fun as...a bicycle!

[djg]

Uh, I was just talking about not being hired at the bike shop. The Burger King job is a no-brainer, literally. The sad thing is that after 20+ years the pay scale would be much better at BK. I'm not in the bike biz for the money, but it would be nice if WheelWorks sold fries.



Just kidding.

About BK, not labor markets.

[rwsaunders]

From the book....The Millionaire Next Door...

PORTRAIT Of A MILLIONAIRE

Who is the prototypical American millionaire? What would he tell you about himself?(*)

* I am a fifty-seven-year-old male, married with three children. About 70 percent of us earn 80 percent or more of our household's income.

* About one in five of us is retired. About two-thirds of us who are working are self-employed. Interestingly, self-employed people make up less than 20 percent of the workers in America but account for two-thirds of the millionaires. Also, three out of four of us who are self-employed consider ourselves to be entrepreneurs. Most of the others are self-employed professionals, such as doctors and accountants.

* Many of the types of businesses we are in could be classified as dullnormal. We are welding contractors, auctioneers, rice farmers, owners of mobile-home parks, pest controllers, coin and stamp dealers, and paving contractors.

* About half of our wives do not work outside the home. The number-one occupation for those wives who do work is teacher.

* Our household's total annual realized (taxable) income is $131,000 (median, or 50th percentile), while our average income is $247,000. Note that those of us who have incomes in the $500,000 to $999,999 category (8 percent) and the $1 million or more category (5 percent) skew the average upward.

* We have an average household net worth of $3.7 million. Of course, some of our cohorts have accumulated much more. Nearly 6 percent have a net worth of over $10 million. Again, these people skew our average upward. The typical (median, or 50th percentile) millionaire household has a net worth of $1.6 million.

* On average, our total annual realized income is less than 7 percent of our wealth. In other words, we live on less than 7 percent of our wealth.

* Most of us (97 percent) are homeowners. We live in homes currently valued at an average of $320,000. About half of us have occupied the same home for more than twenty years. Thus, we have enjoyed significant increases in the value of our homes.

* Most of us have never felt at a disadvantage because we did not receive any inheritance. About 80 percent of us are first-generation affluent.

* We live well below our means. We wear inexpensive suits and drive American-made cars. Only a minority of us drive the current-model-year automobile. Only a minority ever lease our motor vehicles.

* Most of our wives are planners and meticulous budgeters. In fact, only 18 percent of us disagreed with the statement "Charity begins at home." Most of us will tell you that our wives are a lot more conservative with money than we are.

* We have a "go-to-hell fund." In other words, we have accumulated enough wealth to live without working for ten or more years. Thus, those of us with a net worth of $1.6 million could live comfortably for more than twelve years. Actually, we could live longer than that, since we save at least 15 percent of our earned income.

* We have more than six and one-half times the level of wealth of our nonmillionaire neighbors, but, in our neighborhood, these nonmillionaires outnumber us better than three to one. Could it be that they have chosen to trade wealth for acquiring high-status material possessions?

* As a group, we are fairly well educated. Only about one in five are not college graduates. Many of us hold advanced degrees. Eighteen percent have master's degrees, 8 percent law degrees, 6 percent medical degrees, and 6 percent Ph.D.s.

* Only 17 percent of us or our spouses ever attended a private elementary or private high school. But 55 percent of our children are currently attending or have attended private schools.

* As a group, we believe that education is extremely important for ourselves, our children, and our grandchildren. We spend heavily for the educations of our offspring.

* About two-thirds of us work between forty-five and fifty-five hours per week.

* We are fastidious investors. On average, we invest nearly 20 percent of our household realized income each year. Most of us invest at least 15 percent. Seventy-nine percent of us have at least one account with a brokerage company. But we make our own investment decisions.

* We hold nearly 20 percent of our household's wealth in transaction securities such as publicly traded stocks and mutual funds. But we rarely sell our equity investments. We hold even more in our pension plans. On average, 21 percent of our household's wealth is in our private businesses.

* As a group, we feel that our daughters are financially handicapped in comparison to our sons. Men seem to make much more money even within the same occupational categories. That is why most of us would not hesitate to share some of our wealth with our daughters. Our sons, and men in general, have the deck of economic cards stacked in their favor. They should not need subsidies from their parents.

* What would be the ideal occupations for our sons and daughters? There are about 3.5 millionaire households like ours. Our numbers are growing much faster than the general population. Our kids should consider providing affluent people with some valuable service. Overall, our most trusted financial advisors are our accountants. Our attorneys are also very important. So we recommend accounting and law to our children. Tax advisors and estate-planning experts will be in big demand over the next fifteen years.

* I am a tightwad. That's one of the main reasons I completed a long questionnaire for a crispy $1 bill. Why else would I spend two or three hours being personally interviewed by these authors? They paid me $100, $200, or $250. Oh, they made me another offer--to donate in my name the money I earned for my interview to my favorite charity. But I told them, "I am my favorite charity."

[Karin Kirk]

+2 to Sadie and Ginger. Sadie in fact used the exact words I was going to type. Ironically, some of the most condescending treatment I ever got in a bike/ski shop was from another woman. I get annoyed even thinking about that interaction!

Anyway, my answer to this is to develop relationships. I have my shops of choice and I work at building a relationship there until the key people there know me and I know them. Then I go to those shops and see those people only. This has worked great and has saved me from constantly battling the assumptions that I am a beginner at cycling/skiing and that I must only be interested in whatever has pink flowers on it. (Not that there's anything wrong with pink flowers!)

Best of all, once those relationships are formed, I get truly fantastic service and I've had great experiences.

[DukeHorn]

My sister loves her lbs in Poway. I've given her a 94 Cannondale Delta V400 mountain bike and a 90s lugged Landshark road bike and she just enjoys the fact that the bike shop guys really like her "older bikes". Course it doesn't hurt that she's cute and super athletic.....(i got the bad end of the parental gene pool).

[xlbs]

I found quickly that the guys dressed in grubby clothes who drove older cars (classic and otherwise) and asked straightforward questions about what we sold were my most profitable customers. They referred their friends, and spent a lot of money themselves.

My favourite long-term customer came in one day looking for brake pads. I had just installed the only pair we had in the store on my own bike, but hadn't yet ridden it. He was dressed in soiled and torn jeans, a grubby T-shirt and was driving a beaten up old GM Suburban. I explained that these were the only ones we had, but that he was welcome to them (discounted slightly because they were out of the package and already installed!) He bought them...For about two months we had a stream of high-end customers coming into the store saying, "Bill sent me..." We didn't know who "Bill" was until about 3 months later when he came in to ask if any of his friends had shown up...

We ended up dealing with ex and current Olympians, CEO's, high-end lawyers, and independently wealthy entrepreneurs. Most of them were post 50 and most of them dressed "down" deliberately. I loved the 50+ crowd, and now that I've joined them I simply ignore the stores that don't get it...

[Z3c]

This is an interesting thread for me as I am 46 and work on the sales floor of an LBS. Other than one guy in his 60's, I am by far the oldest person employed there. It is great and frustrating all at once; I can sell circles around most of the staff yet I worry about how some of my regular customers are treated when I am not there, especially as I work limited hours. For me, I watch the parking lot for nice cars and wrists for nice watches; I didn't fall off the truck yesterday. Let's face it; folks around my age have the disposable income, not just income, to buy what they want. I view my role as conveying the value of products so they will decide it is what they want. I have customers who know my schedule; they don't want to chat with the "kids"; works for me. Works for the shop as well as I fill a niche that the kids can't; eveybody wins, hopefully the customers see it that way as well.

To the original poster I would suggest shopping around until you find a person and a shop that you like and get to know them and be loyal to them, not just the shop. I have some customers that I really take care of..

Ginger-FWIW, I really try to be proactively helpful to women..

Scott

[Peter P.]

I have a saying-"Customer service (i.e., sales) is a dance, and the customer leads."

A good salesperson, or any person working in a customer service position, is a chameleon, changing their presentation to fit the needs and desires of the customer. Your eyes and ears have to be open, and you better be paying attention.

ALL employees are taught how to do their job. Few are taught customer service.

[Dekonick]

I still head to a LBS where their primary products are entry level bikes and repairs...they are an old time Schwinn dealer. The owner is the salesman, mechanic, chief cook and bottle washer. He doesn't have an issue with building up frames that were purchased on the Forum and he's a fixture at local charity rides. I have sent a lot of folks his way for their first bikes and for countless repairs. He actually wears a shop repair coat with his name on it...hardcore.

I guess what turned me off at a local shop recently is that when I was at the counter purchasing some tires and parts, the owner actually asked me if I was ever going to part with some "real money" and buy a new bike. Last visit for me.

Did you reply - when you carry some real bikes? (ie - not Trek, Specialized, Giant, ...not that they aren't real bikes, but IMHO - some of us just don't want to ride a mass produced bike that fits - everyone.)

[Sandy]

Do you remember when you and I went to that bike store that carried a lot of Treks, if I remember correctly. We both walked around and around in the store and no one came over to help us.


Sandy

PS- Want to ride in a few days? Have to start sometime.

[Ti Designs]

FWIW, I really try to be proactively helpful to women..


Now there's a double edge sword for 'ya! A lot of guys try to be a little too helpful to women, even when they're not qualified. Last week I saw 3 guys trying to fit a girl on a time trial bike, it was the most helpful worst service ever. Atleast the old guys have a chance at working with the experienced staff member who's outgrown the young bike racer kid stage and knows a thing or two about cycling.

The other week a coaching job came up, 6 high profile women who wanted to look like real cyclists. One of them knows me and suggested I take the job. There were also a dozen other guys who felt more qualified, and the pissing match began. The big loser in this were the women who are soon to be taking Spin classes.

[FMS_rider]

I am a bit overwhelmed by the response to my post (I feel less like a ghost than usual). I wish I had the time to comment on all, but here are a few, anyway:

to TiDesigns:
Fortunately for all of us you somehow persevere. I must admit, however, that I have long been puzzled by your constant self-deprecating remarks --I just hope they don’t get in the way of recruiting new clients. For anyone who has not ‘been here’ for the past year or so, TiDesigns/Ed Sassler is one of the very best coaches/trainers/fitters around.

to SadieKate and Ginger, and the others who echoed their words:
I think I do now genuinely feel your pain. I certainly heard similar words on many occasions when I was younger but have to confess that they did not fully get through until I started to routinely have such experiences myself.

I still head to a LBS where their primary products are entry level bikes and repairs...they are an old time Schwinn dealer. The owner is the salesman, mechanic, chief cook and bottle washer. He doesn't have an issue with building up frames that were purchased on the Forum and he's a fixture at local charity rides. I have sent a lot of folks his way for their first bikes and for countless repairs. He actually wears a shop repair coat with his name on it...hardcore. …. I see the new shop in Mazomanie WI (ProCycle) that I cited in my original post as similar to the one you describe --I will be devastated if he is unable to build a successful business

…. I think the interaction is a two-way street though. it may be just as hard for the older customer to make a connection with the whipper snappers working there. I do hope that is not true for myself --I got a late start in the family department so my daughter and son are still in their early 20s and that makes it easier for me to relate to ‘kids’ --for starters I would like to think that I start off treating young sales people with respect --it is easier to emphatise when you ‘see’ your kids or their friends in such interactions.

Sandy
OK, how about this thought- Go back to one of the shops, as an experiment, that treated you so poorly. Bring your gorgeous Legend Ti with you and be dressed ready to ride, shoes, helmet, and all. See how they react to you then. Bet it will be different than when you went "dressed as a bum".
…
Sales people often make quick judgements. Sometimes they are right and sometimes they are incorrect. Reminds me of the movie- "Pretty Woman" with Julia Roberts- Remember the scene in which Julia Roberts went to the fancy dress shop dressed poorly and no one waited on her, but later when she was all dressed up, they wanted to help her?
Always dressed like a bum, Sandy Great fantasies, but I really doubt you could ever bring yourself to do that --especially the car-dealer scenario that I clipped. --and I do remember the Julia Roberts scene --but my favorite part of that scene was when Richard Gere asks the sales crew to ‘suck up’ and they mistakenly think he wants it himself.


…
I have to admit that I avoid conversations with the new kid who thinks he knows everything and thinks everyone should buy Assos everything. When I have a choice I do that, but in the majority of the many shops in my area the entire sales crew is kids.



I've been in several of the local 'high end' shops and have had trouble getting waited on.
It's not a problem.
I don't go back - get my stuff on the web.
….
The local Trek shop have been great - they are one of the main reasons I got a
Madone.

It will be interesting to see how things shake out over the next couple of years.
-JimD I reached the point where I bought just about everything on the web for several years until I finally discovered the bike shop of my dreams last year. However my very worst experiences, and in one case my most costly, were in the nearby Trek store. An example: they imported a young hot shot from the Waterloo headquarters for the grand presentation of the new Madones. I could not get him out of his canned spiel that not only assumed that I was an even bigger ignoramus than I am, but was full of highly deceptive BS.

…
As for the respect for the older customer, I came to Wheelworks as a student and skinny bike racer. I would have to say that I was one of the people that Lew is complaining about. I soon learned that cycling isn't a sport just for the young … I actually smile inside (genuinely) when I hear the braggadocio of talented young bike racers (internet and the rare occasion when I watch a bike race on television) --the human race has clearly survived in part because of the rebelliousness and exuberance of youth and I do not find it offensive. I know that many of the employees of bike shops are starving young racers with a ‘tude that many of them need in order to win, and that because of the salaries that most shops pay their employees only bike-crazed kids can afford to work there (unless they have multiple professions as you do). However it is downright stupid of owners and managers to not take the time to teach them how to relate to customers of all kinds, and if they don’t or can’t learn to behave themselves, to dump them --that’s undoubtedly easier said than done, but I am certain most shops could substantially increase their sales with some such approach.


…
Plus, it seems that some "serious cyclists" and shop employees are both trying to prove how much they know. Unfortunately your comment hit a chord for me: thinking back, I have been guilty of that on more than one occasion --especially when I was even more ignorant than I am now.

I found quickly that the guys dressed in grubby clothes who drove older cars (classic and otherwise) and asked straightforward questions about what we sold were my most profitable customers. They referred their friends, and spent a lot of money themselves.

My favourite long-term customer came in one day looking for brake pads. I had just installed the only pair we had in the store on my own bike, but hadn't yet ridden it. He was dressed in soiled and torn jeans, a grubby T-shirt and was driving a beaten up old GM Suburban. I explained that these were the only ones we had, but that he was welcome to them (discounted slightly because they were out of the package and already installed!) He bought them...For about two months we had a stream of high-end customers coming into the store saying, "Bill sent me..." We didn't know who "Bill" was until about 3 months later when he came in to ask if any of his friends had shown up...

We ended up dealing with ex and current Olympians, CEO's, high-end lawyers, and independently wealthy entrepreneurs. Most of them were post 50 and most of them dressed "down" deliberately. I loved the 50+ crowd, and now that I've joined them I simply ignore the stores that don't get it... Every bike shop should put a copy of your post on their wall --perhaps in the bathroom stall so their employees could not avoid it --perhaps overhanging the toilet paper dispenser where they would be forced to look at it when they lift it up.


Do you remember when you and I went to that bike store that carried a lot of Treks, if I remember correctly. We both walked around and around in the store and no one came over to help us. Sandy
PS- Want to ride in a few days? Have to start sometime. I have had that same experience many times in stores of all kinds (hardware stores are particularly bad). Unfortunately some of those stores are places that I have no choice but to return to, but when I do have a choice I don’t go back, although I may give them 2 or 3 strikes before reaching that point. With regard to your PS: we are all rooting for you!

[WadePatton]

Local LBS owner started from scratch. Interaction with the owner is great--for everybody. I've seen it dozens of times. They're particularly nice explaining how/why they can't work on BLO's. And I suppose they do when the owner insists.

He has built a super, top selling, Trek/etc. store.

But BUSY is killing them. So many employees now and so many young folks who...well they just don't have a lot of people experience. While most folks still get the splendid treatment, some are falling through the cracks. I caught one of those and will probably catch a few more when the time is right.

The E-Myth is a great entrepreneurial read. Helps one understand the MickD's method of growth and the tradeoffs involved. Whether or not to make those tradeoffs is a question for each business owner.

[Dekonick]

Do you remember when you and I went to that bike store that carried a lot of Treks, if I remember correctly. We both walked around and around in the store and no one came over to help us.


Sandy

PS- Want to ride in a few days? Have to start sometime.

Why - YES I DO! The ironic part is that same shop sold me my first Serotta 15 years earlier. I have purchased 3 complete builds, have had several frames built up, and lots of maintenance performed by that same shop. That was in the '90's. The manager left, and ever since then the shop has lost its flavor. THey used to carry waterford, serotta, LeMond, specialized, trek, as well as others - now it is pretty much Trek. Ironic that when we were walking around the place, we had the nicest bikes in the entire joint - your Ottrott, My Hors, and I forget what steel steed your friend had, but it was nice. You would think that 3 guys dressed in spandex, with nice and obviously used bikes would get at least a hello from the staff. I don't go there anymore unless it is a dire emergency.

Oh - why not. I'll toss the name out as well as their customer service sucks -

RACE PACE - in Ellicott City. One of 3 shops, perhaps 4 in the mini chain.

:no: