LeMond contra mundum

[fiamme red]

http://www.mensjournal.com/feature/johnson/lemond.html

[Lifelover]

Very Sad!

I hope he can find peace.

[bike <3'er]

Just some of the reasons why I admire and respect Greg LeMond...

from article:

“I can’t come to grips with how corrupt it has become,” LeMond told me earlier. “I want to be a fan, but I know too much.”

“When you’re good,” he tells me, “you’re good from the beginning.”

LeMond says the doctor told him. “ ‘If you’re going to compete today, you’ve got to go see Ferrari.’ ”

“Lance is the epitome of the opposite of what a champion is. He gets away with it because he’s a cancer survivor.”

“Listen, Lance, before EPO was ever in cycling I won the Tour de France…because I had a VO2 max of 95. Yours was 82. Tell me one person who said I did EPO.”

“I’m so glad I’m not a professional cyclist anymore, because it’s incredibly selfish,” LeMond says when we’re back at the house. “You’ve got everyone around you supporting you and propping your ego up.”

About a call Landis had made to him a few days after the offending urine sample. Earlier, LeMond had told a French newspaper, “If he is confirmed positive, I hope he has the courage to tell the truth. I hope that he won’t do what another American did: deny, deny, deny.”

“Cycling saved my life. I know it did,” he told me at one point, breaking down. “It allowed me to reinvent myself.”

While Armstrong has essentially fled from professional cycling, LeMond is slowly returning to it. He is invited to antidoping summits and greeted like a hero at cycling events. After years of being treated like a crazy uncle in the attic, he’s now being listened to; and if there’s one thing Greg LeMond likes to do, it’s talk.

[jmc22]

Just some of the reasons why I admire and respect Greg LeMond...

from article:

“I can’t come to grips with how corrupt it has become,” LeMond told me earlier. “I want to be a fan, but I know too much.”

“When you’re good,” he tells me, “you’re good from the beginning.”

LeMond says the doctor told him. “ ‘If you’re going to compete today, you’ve got to go see Ferrari.’ ”

“Lance is the epitome of the opposite of what a champion is. He gets away with it because he’s a cancer survivor.”

“Listen, Lance, before EPO was ever in cycling I won the Tour de France…because I had a VO2 max of 95. Yours was 82. Tell me one person who said I did EPO.”

“I’m so glad I’m not a professional cyclist anymore, because it’s incredibly selfish,” LeMond says when we’re back at the house. “You’ve got everyone around you supporting you and propping your ego up.”

About a call Landis had made to him a few days after the offending urine sample. Earlier, LeMond had told a French newspaper, “If he is confirmed positive, I hope he has the courage to tell the truth. I hope that he won’t do what another American did: deny, deny, deny.”

“Cycling saved my life. I know it did,” he told me at one point, breaking down. “It allowed me to reinvent myself.”

While Armstrong has essentially fled from professional cycling, LeMond is slowly returning to it. He is invited to antidoping summits and greeted like a hero at cycling events. After years of being treated like a crazy uncle in the attic, he’s now being listened to; and if there’s one thing Greg LeMond likes to do, it’s talk.

I couldn't DISAGREE with you more...othen than Greg's comment about the fact that he likes to talk, and my opinion is this guy will say anything to get his name in the news... which is ashame as I once did respect this man.

[bike <3'er]

LeMond > Dopers

And that formula is what drives it for me. If Floyd was willing to lie/cheat/steal, his opinions are moot. If Lance was willing to lie/cheat/steal, ditto.

LeMond was the man. Hinault attacked his weakness, the fact that Greg lacked a spine when he first came around. Then Greg found himself, gained confidence and defeated Hinault. Then dopers overcame the sport and Greg, so he retired. Then Lance won and imho, Lance was on steroids, EPO, a doper. Greg confronted doping in the sport and was ostracized, an outcast, dispelled as bitter and jealous.

When LeMond was going to testify against Floyd Landis (stating under oath that Landis admitted cheating to him) Floyd Landis took the low road and attacked LeMond on the internet. Floyd threatened to tell bad things about Greg. Ohhh, that's a schoolyard threat. Then Floyd's case came up and Landis' friend called LeMond to threaten him about his, "Uncle who used to hide his wennie." LeMond then told the world about his sexual abuse and stood by the truth in telling the world about Landis' cheating.

LeMond had a similar situation with Armstrong.

In my book, my own book, Landis and Lance cheated and LeMond did not.

Landis lost his yellow jersey. Lance's jerseys have suspicion placed on all of them. LeMond's jerseys are clean.

LeMond > Dopers, liars, cheaters and those who stole from the sport.

[hansolo758]

Perhaps Lemond is bitter, perhaps not. Let's remember that when powerful folks are out to get you, the attack is usually a several-pronged one, including media pieces like this. Painting Lemond as a frustrated man who wants to get his name in the news might be a way of undercutting his message, even if it does have merit -- just ask Richard Clarke and Scott McClellan. If Lemond really only cared about marketing himself, wouldn't he have stopped talking and concentrated on his bike brand? Why risk alienating Trek and Lance?

[jmc22]

In my book, my own book, Landis and Lance cheated and LeMond did not.

Landis lost his yellow jersey. Lance's jerseys have suspicion placed on all of them. LeMond's jerseys are clean.

LeMond > Dopers, liars, cheaters and those who stole from the sport.

I can only assume your book was written when LeMond won his jerseys - which was before certain doping procedures were written into the UCI book as being illegal.

Maybe we should put an asterisk next to his name like Barry Bonds since we will never know if he was actually taking something that improved his performance as he was never tested for it...unless of course you think that maybe the FFI or UCI just happens to have some of his blood laying around that they can test with today’s standards - without any assurances that it was not tempered with - like they did with LA.

PS - you say that LA's jersey's are all tainted with suspicion, which yet have never been proven...but then you or LeMond fail to mention someone like Riis that was never thought to have been dirty come out and tell everyone he was dirty when he won the TDF in 97’ - which just so happened to be after the FFI or UCI could do anything against him.. and there he is - still large and in charge running CSC and going to this years TDF and no one is saying Boo about him! :no:

[BBB]

I can only assume your book was written when LeMond won his jerseys - which was before certain doping procedures were written into the UCI book as being illegal.

Maybe we should put an asterisk next to his name like Barry Bonds since we will never know if he was actually taking something that improved his performance as he was never tested for it...unless of course you think that maybe the FFI or UCI just happens to have some of his blood laying around that they can test with today’s standards - without any assurances that it was not tempered with - like they did with LA.

PS - you say that LA's jersey's are all tainted with suspicion, which yet have never been proven...but then you or LeMond fail to mention someone like Riis that was never thought to have been dirty come out and tell everyone he was dirty when he won the TDF in 97’ - which just so happened to be after the FFI or UCI could do anything against him.. and there he is - still large and in charge running CSC and going to this years TDF and no one is saying Boo about him! :no:

jmc22 - you need to go back and read a bit of history.

LeMond won in 1986 for the first time. EPO had yet to be invented.

There is zero proof that "they" tampered with LA's blood samples.

Riis won in 1996. He was known as Mr 60%. There was a reason for that, which Riis kindly confirmed.

If you don't like LeMond, that's your perogative, but at least get some of your facts right.

[jmc22]

jmc22 - you need to go back and read a bit of history.

LeMond won in 1986 for the first time. EPO had yet to be invented.

There is zero proof that "they" tampered with LA's blood samples.

Riis won in 1996. He was known as Mr 60%. There was a reason for that, which Riis kindly confirmed.

If you don't like LeMond, that's your perogative, but at least get some of your facts right.

BBB:

I never said EPO - I said something to improve his Preformance that he was not tested for when he won the TDF using todays testing standards that could possibly show otherwise given today's technology.

I did not say they tampered with LA's blood samplings - I said what would LeMond think if they retested his blood samples today from when he won the TDF - without any assurances as to if it was tampered with or not. PS - there was zero proof that LA's blood was not tampered with, that blood was in "storage" a long time I think you would agree.

My mistake on Riis 97 - 96

I think you should take better time to read what is written and not read into what you think WAS written.

[michael white]

It seems to me that whenever the two champions are discussed, one has to be great, the other evil. Well, maybe not everytime, but it's a tendency.

Look, it's not like it's Superman vs. Batman or something. They are both very human, there are things we know and things we don't know. I would think both have earned the respect of the average cyclist.

[BBB]

BBB:

I never said EPO - I said something to improve his Preformance that he was not tested for when he won the TDF using todays testing standards that could possibly show otherwise given today's technology.

I did not say they tampered with LA's blood samplings - I said what would LeMond think if they retested his blood samples today from when he won the TDF - without any assurances as to if it was tampered with or not. PS - there was zero proof that LA's blood was not tampered with, that blood was in "storage" a long time I think you would agree.

My mistake on Riis 97 - 96

I think you should take better time to read what is written and not read into what you think WAS written.

I saw what you wrote.

I was concerned at the mistakes and tone of your post.

Sure, you did not say EPO, but what else can you have meant by "LeMond won his jerseys - which was before certain doping procedures were written into the UCI book as being illegal"??? What did you think people would infer?

The question of tampering is really only relevant to the minority who believe that certain unknown people are out to bring down American TdF winners. I've posted on this subject recently and the 'conspiracy' is just really hard to swallow.

Noted in relation to Riis, but I think the real concern is that his victory was considered to be suspicious at the time and following - hence the Mr 60% reputation that followed Riis around.

At the end of the day, this boils down to a LeMond/Armstrong thing. It is clear from your comments that you do not like LeMond based on his recent history of speaking out. This is an emotive issue and we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Tony Edwards]

LeMond is certainly an interesting, polarizing figure, and the article does a good job of conveying his chaotic, conflicted persona.

At the end of the day, I frankly doubt that either LeMond or Armstrong rode entirely clean. Even if LeMond did, I think his piousness about Lance, Landis and others has only harmed the sport, and I believe he's done and said these things more out of an innate hunger for attention than out of any true desire to see cycling cleaned up.

There's a difference between seeking the truth and seeking to boost yourself up at the expense of others. I have great respect for what LeMond has done, and I regret the things that happened to him in childhood, but I think he needs professional help and an ego adjustment.

[Lifelover]

LeMond is certainly an interesting, polarizing figure, and the article does a good job of conveying his chaotic, conflicted persona.

At the end of the day, I frankly doubt that either LeMond or Armstrong rode entirely clean. Even if LeMond did, I think his piousness about Lance, Landis and others has only harmed the sport, and I believe he's done and said these things more out of an innate hunger for attention than out of any true desire to see cycling cleaned up.

There's a difference between seeking the truth and seeking to boost yourself up at the expense of others. I have great respect for what LeMond has done, and I regret the things that happened to him in childhood, but I think he needs professional help and an ego adjustment.


+1

Perfectly put

[jmc22]

LeMond is certainly an interesting, polarizing figure, and the article does a good job of conveying his chaotic, conflicted persona.

At the end of the day, I frankly doubt that either LeMond or Armstrong rode entirely clean. Even if LeMond did, I think his piousness about Lance, Landis and others has only harmed the sport, and I believe he's done and said these things more out of an innate hunger for attention than out of any true desire to see cycling cleaned up.

There's a difference between seeking the truth and seeking to boost yourself up at the expense of others. I have great respect for what LeMond has done, and I regret the things that happened to him in childhood, but I think he needs professional help and an ego adjustment.

+1+1

While I also do agree, wouldn't it have been much better of Mr. LeMond if he took his energy and put it to good use:

NOT - a highly trained German-bred police dog, used for security purposes only and costing upward of $20,000. “All I have to do is say ‘throat!’ ” LeMond whispers, “and he’d kill you.”

NOT - “I can’t come to grips with how corrupt it (cycling) has become,” “I want to be a fan, but I know too much.” - there is nothing that I know that GL can do for the sport today. (Does anyone else find it ironic that GL claims to have had all of these professionl cyclists tell him that that they have used performance drugs)

YES - maybe helping others bybringing awearness to programs that may help his son and others beat depression and substance abuse problems that had haunted his son since his teens, as LA has done with Cancer.

In my opinion, this is the difference between LA & GL is what they have done since they have gotten out of the sport...


BBB-yes you are entitled to your opions about LA, GL and my post...you can read into it anything your little heart desires, you can say there was no conspericy in the TDF and those 13 riders that got kick-out before the start of the TDF because of Operation Puerto didn't change the out-come of the final results, that you believe that EPO was the only perfromance drug that has been placed on the banned list since LeMond won his jerseys (in 86', 89' & 90')... just make sure that when you do, that you're wearing those rose tinted LeMond glasses when you go to the corner, stand on your soapbox and proclaim that LeMond was the last Ture non-drug using TDF champ we had in the sport.

I may not be an expert in the field as you proclaim yourself to be, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night :crap: .

I'm outa here.
JMC22

[djg]

I saw what you wrote.

...

The question of tampering is really only relevant to the minority who believe that certain unknown people are out to bring down American TdF winners. I've posted on this subject recently and the 'conspiracy' is just really hard to swallow.

..

The choosing of an allegiance is understandable, even if it's done largely in the dark.

One really does not need any sort of conspiracy theory to wonder about the integrity of the old, unofficial, out-of-date French tests. Look at relatively neutral data about the frequency of identification errors in clinical testing (the Institute of Medicine has summary reports on US practices and, to a lesser extent, international ones) -- it's really pretty shocking, before we add years and various handoffs to the mix. High error rates reflect inadequate protocols and systems, not -- at least not commonly -- conspiracies. Are there grounds to wonder about Lance? Sure. Did Le Monde prove anything? Not in my book, not by a long shot, and my doubts have nothing to do with my having picked a patron saint or a cycling hero. I've seen the reproductions of the results and the list and I don't regard them as grounds for anything much at all -- no conspiracy theory here, I just wouldn't publish anything or treat anybody based on that sort of thing and I wouldn't convict anybody either.

[johnnymossville]

My dad always told me to be wary of a man who owns a mean dog. I'm a big Lemond fan, but,... the scary dog thing says something to me.

Ofcourse I'm a nobody so the scary bodyguard dog isn't necessary, but still.

[BigMiles]

I just don't get the "Lance is a doper" theme...maybe not so much on Serotta.com but moreso on bikeforums.net....Lance has been tested more than any other cyclist during that 7 yr span...all clean.
I get the feeling there is an anti-Lance push now that he is retired and people are doubting his accomplishments....pisses me off

[Samster]

ahhh. this thread... again... it won't die unless we all collectively let it.

*added* of course, this is assuming we all want it dead, which may be wrong.

[Marcusaurelius]

yep...just wish Lemond wasn't such a dope. He sings the same tawdry songs all the time. It's tedious and it's ridiculous to acusse LA without a shred of evidence to back it up. Envy? Jealousy? Who knows. Maybe he wants to pull someone down to build himself up.

[michael white]

ahhh. this thread... again... it won't die unless we all collectively let it.

*added* of course, this is assuming we all want it dead, which may be wrong.


agreed. The behavior of retired athletes might not be anything to write home about, but neither is psychologically evaluating somebody over the internet.

[BigDaddySmooth]

yep...just wish Lemond wasn't such a dope. He sings the same tawdry songs all the time. It's tedious and it's ridiculous to acusse LA without a shred of evidence to back it up. Envy? Jealousy? Who knows. Maybe he wants to pull someone down to build himself up.

My take on the situation is that Lemond was/is a perfectionist and he is very disturbed about the 10+ years of cycling doping scandals. Looking back to the early 1980's, Hinault and Lemond were obvious prodigies of the sport. Who can doubt Lemond's ability? After his accident, Indurain came on the scene and dominated. Again, no doubt about his ability. Since 1996, the winners have either cheated (1996-Riis, Landis-2006), cheated later (1997-Ullrich, 1998-Pantani), accused of cheating (Armstrong 1999-2005), or been banned from a team's cheating (2007-Contador). All the top names during LA's reign cheated. The boys are still cheating. Whereas LA has gone Hollywood, GL still respects cycling's tradition. He is bitter but can you blame him?

[Lifelover]

My take on the situation is that Lemond was/is a perfectionist and he is very disturbed about the 10+ years of cycling doping scandals. Looking back to the early 1980's, Hinault and Lemond were obvious prodigies of the sport. Who can doubt Lemond's ability? After his accident, Indurain came on the scene and dominated. Again, no doubt about his ability. Since 1996, the winners have either cheated (1996-Riis, Landis-2006), cheated later (1997-Ullrich, 1998-Pantani), accused of cheating (Armstrong 1999-2005), or been banned from a team's cheating (2007-Contador). All the top names during LA's reign cheated. The boys are still cheating. Whereas LA has gone Hollywood, GL still respects cycling's tradition. He is bitter but can you blame him?


My take on the situation is that in order to be a great champion/figure with in any sport you must process a competitive drive that the rest of us don't understand. It would not surprise me to learn that LA, Ullrich, MJ, TW and the like, all used PEDs at some point.

If GL didn't, it is ONLY because the opportunity did not present itself.


ATMO of course.

[bike <3'er]

Of interest from the article regarding GL, "One night, with the help of a bottle of scotch, LeMond tried to tell Kathy about his abuse, but it was no use. “I’ll tell you on my deathbed,” he mumbled as he passed out. Six weeks later he took off to Arizona with another woman."

Six weeks later he went off to AZ with another woman? I didn't know that.

What do we know?

1). Both GL and LA had tortured childhoods. Greg's father figure was an uncle who abused him and Lance had nothing.

2). Greg raced in a time when EPO was not available.

3). They're both egotistical, like most athletes, like most human beings for that matter.

4). Anytime GL disagrees with Lance's pov or even Landis' pov, he's described as, "Bitter". It seems Lance and Floyd call a lot of people bitter, there is a pattern there. Greg tells the truth (or his opinion) and he's bitter? Barry Bonds calls a lot of people bitter/jealous too. Perhaps when you're wrong and the lights are on you, it's best to call your pundits, "Bitter."

It seems Greg and Lance have a great deal in common. The main differences are that Lance is viewed as better looking, which helps bigtime in society/the media etc and Greg seems shy, whereas Lance is Hollywood 24/7.

Bitter? They all are, Lance, Floyd and Lemond; all three of them had some childhood trama which sparked their fires to ride and left them with a chip on their shoulders. Lance is so bitter that if you say anything bad about him, he sues you. He's sued about every paper or author in the free world. Floyd played the game and lost, LeMond never wanted to play the game and Lance...he's a politican who plays the game and smiles the whole time.

For me it's about their bikes, what they did on them and I tend to believe that Greg rode clean and Lance didn't. I'm allowed to have that opinion. I don't know if Lance cheated on his wife and every girlfriend and I can't say what was in the famous can of Coke that Floyd drank. What I know is that if indeed Lance doped, he doped in an era when most cyclists did...and he beat them all, apples to apples. This year, le Tour has brainwashed us to take back the tour. Yeah.

[jmc22]

Only days after LeMond said:

“I can’t come to grips with how corrupt it (cycling) has become,” LeMond told me earlier. “I want to be a fan, but I know too much.”

For years he barely even rode his bike, until he started riding with Geoffrey two years ago. LeMond thought it might help his son beat back the depression and substance abuse problems that had haunted him since his teens. Geoffrey has considered trying to turn pro, but LeMond opposes it because he doesn’t want his son to be tempted to use performance drugs.

He is quoted in VeloNews today saying:

VeloNews: Can you believe in cycling again?

Greg LeMond: Yes, that’s why I am here. Eric Boyer invited me because I am part of this new (team’s) group. I came back to the Tour last year for one day because my son got me back into cycling. I’m excited. I’m the most optimistic about cycling since probably when I turned pro.

VN: Have you returned because of changes in the sport?

GL: I can believe in cycling that is going to change in a very positive way.

Put a reporter in this guys face and he will say anything to get his name in the lime light.

My 02¢

[Steelhead]

I think the only thing that can't be argued is that it is all terribly sad.

And that Mark Geoghan or whatever his name is ought to have his a$$ kicked.

[fiamme red]

I think the only thing that can't be argued is that it is all terribly sad.Yes, but as the article points out (quoting a "major figure in U.S. cycling"), "it’s hard to feel bad for him living in a mansion with millions in the bank."

[majorpat]

I like LeMond better based on a 16 year old kids worldview and passion about cycling in 1986. Today, he comes off a little goofy, you won three times, man, just let it go.

OK, so here is what I wonder. Say LeMond (or any pro before EPO) used "something", were the "somethings" available then as effective as EPO?

Also, if Armstrong (or any pro during the EPO era) maybe strictly used blood transfusions, could they evade all tests. Seems like Hamilton got caught injecting somebody else's blood by accident, Floyd's positive was probably due to the fact that it was a transfusion taken out sometime before the tour (when, allegedly, he had testosterone in his system) then injected prior to his super breakaway. Heras and the Puerto mob, same same. Isn't it impossible to detect one's own blood if it is transfused during competition? Hence the lack of "positives" but so many questions?

Just rolling it around my feeble mind.

Pat

[Kevan]

My dad always told me to be wary of a man who owns a mean dog. I'm a big Lemond fan, but,... the scary dog thing says something to me.

Ofcourse I'm a nobody so the scary bodyguard dog isn't necessary, but still.

but here I couldn't agree more.

[David Kirk]

From my perspective Greg LeMond is a flawed human being just like Armstrong and the whole lot of us. We are all far from perfect and Greg is no different.

One thing I see and feel is that Greg loves the sport. It has always looked this way to me. The difference between Lance and Greg from where I sit is that Greg loves cycling and Lance loves winning. This is what it feels like to me.

In the end Greg is a hero to me thorns and all.

Dave

[LegendRider]

Yes, but as the article points out (quoting a "major figure in U.S. cycling"), "it’s hard to feel bad for him living in a mansion with millions in the bank."


well, do you feel bad for him knowing he was abused as a child and his son was addicted to drugs?

[johnnymossville]

From my perspective Greg LeMond is a flawed human being just like Armstrong and the whole lot of us. We are all far from perfect and Greg is no different.

One thing I see and feel is that Greg loves the sport. It has always looked this way to me. The difference between Lance and Greg from where I sit is that Greg loves cycling and Lance loves winning. This is what it feels like to me.

In the end Greg is a hero to me thorns and all.

Dave

You and me both. Youtube his 1989 World Championship race for example.

Last I heard, we still have freedom of speech after all.

[xjoex]

Greg Lemond is a bitter old man who can't stand the fact that someone took over his place as the greatest American cyclist.


-Joe

[BumbleBeeDave]

Greg Lemond is a bitter old man who can't stand the fact that someone took over his place as the greatest American cyclist.


-Joe

. . . on whether you think someone HAS taken over his place as "the greatest American cyclist." I don't happen to agree that anyone has.

What Lemond did stands on its own, regardless of the achievements of others after him. Whether I agree with him or not--and I don't always--I greatly respect his candor and the earnest desire he has to improve the lot of pro cycling.

BBD

[DukeHorn]

Yep,

And Marion Jones wasn't doping. Neither was MacGwire nor Bonds. Nor those East German or Chinese swimmers.

Naw, just can't be that the cheaters are ahead of the testing agencies. Just not possible...... There's absolutely no fire where there's smoke. Not at all.

Our sports "heroes" are sacred. No matter that they can't take care of their kids, can't stay in a marriage, can't keep their friends.

If there's a person I wouldn't want as a friend, why would I worship him as a hero?

[BumbleBeeDave]

Yep,

And Marion Jones wasn't doping. Neither was MacGwire nor Bonds. Nor those East German or Chinese swimmers.

Naw, just can't be that the cheaters are ahead of the testing agencies. Just not possible...... There's absolutely no fire where there's smoke. Not at all.

Our sports "heroes" are sacred. No matter that they can't take care of their kids, can't stay in a marriage, can't keep their friends.

If there's a person I wouldn't want as a friend, why would I worship him as a hero?

I didn't say I totally admired everything about him. But he occupies a place in cycling history that the other obvious candidate for "greatest American Cyclist" does not. Except for possibly '99, I don't see anything "cliffhanger" about any of LA's TdF victories.

It also seems ironic to me that Armstrong faces down his demon--cancer--and gets admired for it. Lemond stares down his personal demons and gets called "a bitter old man."

Unless you were sexually abused as a child and are intimately familiar with the variety of negative effects such abuse can have in later life, I suggest you do some research before criticizing Lemond for the problems he has gone through with being a husband, a father, and a friend. Such abuse creates lasting obstacles to be overcome that are every bit as formidable as getting cancer.

The fact that Lemond is coming to terms with his personal past and working to overcome personal problems--and doing so in the glare of the public spotlight--is a struggle and victory that is every bit as admirable as Armstrong's fight against cancer. Because of that I admire Lemond greatly--his cycling victories, his anti-doping stance and candor, and even the personal struggles that he seems to be working out. I'm willing to cut him a LOT of slack.

BBD

[David Kirk]

In my mind it's not all so black and white. Can't we admire the man and the strength and determination and style he used to win so many races including the Tour and other huge events and at the same time dislike some of his actions and words?

I know I've made mistakes and even done things I'm not proud of but I hope that in the end I'm judged on my words and deeds as a whole and that folks don't look at just the good or just the bad.

I admire the man warts and all.

Dave

[michael white]

In my mind it's not all so black and white. Can't we admire the man and the strength and determination and style he used to win so many races including the Tour and other huge events and at the same time dislike some of his actions and words?

I know I've made mistakes and even done things I'm not proud of but I hope that in the end I'm judged on my words and deeds as a whole and that folks don't look at just the good or just the bad.

I admire the man warts and all.

Dave

Couldn't agree more. My only point is that I wonder if it might be possible to extend the same spirit of acceptance to Armstrong, too.

best,
mw

[David Kirk]

Couldn't agree more. My only point is that I wonder if it might be possible to extend the same spirit of acceptance to Armstrong, too.

best,
mw

Exactly. I think Armstrong is an amazing talent. Given the choice of having either guy over for a beer and a BBQ my pick would be to spend the evening with LeMond.

Dave

[michael white]

yeah, but I wouldn't mind arm-wrestling Lance. LA, you reading this??

[bike <3'er]

Articulation. In this arena of communication, Greg is at the back of the peleton. Watching and listening to him a few days ago, sitting next to Bobke, LeMond's answers to simple questions were difficult to follow.

Lance Armstrong = Handsome, gifted speaker.
Greg LeMond = Not so easy on the eyes and his mouth is filled with marbles.

I believe these are the two, primary reasons why LeMond has been viewed by the media and public as he has; still, I get and understand what Greg LeMond says.

[paczki]

Greg LeMond = Not so easy on the eyes and his mouth is filled with marbles.

Maybe Dr. Ferrari has a shot that will help with that?

[bike <3'er]

Maybe Dr. Ferrari has a shot that will help with that?

He did. Probably still does.

A very real and credible champion.

Altruisme, vive LeMond.

[chris1751]

lemond is clearly bitter, you can hear it in his words, and see it in his countenance. la is calm, cool, and collected. he is also the superior champion. i would rather drink beer w/lance, as lemond is not my kind of guy-whiney and bitter and difficult to understand, big axe to grind, not believable. as far as the dog? you have got to be kidding me. a former pro bike rider living large in the sticks does not need a german police dog, german police do. and as far as doping in cycling, really, at the end of the day, who cares? its a beautiful sport for humans, and humans can be weak and subject to temptation, and competitive, and oh yeah-humans take drugs, all kinds, etc...the sport remains. sit back and enjoy it. i am sorry lemond was abused as a child, but he still does not seem to have come to grips w/it, which is as understandable as it is unfortunate, because he wears it on his sleeve and brings nastiness to the sport, its athletes, and fans.

[velodadi]

Dave is 100% correct- we should celebrate the positives of these American champions. We can all agree they are very human but very special, warts and all.

Forget all the BS and counting Tour wins. Sports is all about excellence under pressure. I will always remember the 1989 and 2003 Tours- both won by seconds under very difficult circumstances.

Dave, can I bring the potato salad to that barbecue with these guys?

V

[fiamme red]

as far as the dog? you have got to be kidding me. a former pro bike rider living large in the sticks does not need a german police dog, german police do.From the article, it's pretty clear that both LeMond and his wife are paranoid:

Yester the dog senses the unease in the air. "He’s overkill for us," Kathy says, "but if someone tries to carjack me, he will jump through the open window at them."

[WickedWheels]

Exactly. I think Armstrong is an amazing talent. Given the choice of having either guy over for a beer and a BBQ my pick would be to spend the evening with LeMond.

Dave

Couldn't agree more.

[stormyClouds]

It is strange how polarizing both of these guys are. It is rare to find someone who really likes both - it seems most love one of them and hate the other.
Personally, I think that they both were amazing talents on the bike. They both performed exceptionally well under each of their individual circumstances during their athletic primes. That's all that I care about. Whether they ingested x or y is irrelevant to me. Having a super efficient body (a gift) is only a small part of the equation.
With that said, I think that neither of them are/were American heroes. Superb athletes, yes - heroes, definitely not. Heroes don't sue everyone that prints a picture of them. Heroes don't disparage other rider's accomplishments in the media. These guys have done so many embarrassing, childish, disgusting things off the bike that you can't even list them all.
I totally respect both LeMond's and Armstrong's feats on the bicycle. Anyone who has ever thrown a leg over a bicycle should.
However, if you are looking for a hero, a totally dominant athlete and a role model, do some research on this guy (you have likely never heard of him): Sir Stephen Redgrave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Redgrave)

[97CSI]

Yep,

And Marion Jones wasn't doping. Neither was MacGwire nor Bonds. Nor those East German or Chinese swimmers.

Naw, just can't be that the cheaters are ahead of the testing agencies. Just not possible...... There's absolutely no fire where there's smoke. Not at all.

Our sports "heroes" are sacred. No matter that they can't take care of their kids, can't stay in a marriage, can't keep their friends.

If there's a person I wouldn't want as a friend, why would I worship him as a hero?'Tis amazing to me that anyone in sports could be a 'hero'. Simply doesn't fit.

As far as having a beer with either LA or GL, think I'll take LA. At least I don't think he has a trained killer dog with him. :cool:

[Dekonick]

Once upon a time, I believed LA was clean. I also believed GL was all sour grapes. Time has changed my opinion. Both are incredible on the bike - no doubt there. I honestly believe GL cares more about the history, and the sport than LA. No elloquent speaker, GL often makes statements that are - ahem - well - just plain foolish. He does seem to really want to preserve the sport, and try to clean it up. A monumental task, and one where he has powerful enemies, with huge reserves...reminds me of what the IRS stated in an interview on 60 minutes with regard to a particular businessman (Kilpatrick) back in the 80's- "we might not be able to convict him, but we can break him..." - Sounds a lot like the LA apporach IMHO.

Like stated before - neither man is perfect, but I would rather meet GL - in fact, I turned down a dinner event with LA. If Gl had been the key note speaker, I probably would have found a way to make the event.

From what I have heard about GL - he is a cool guy to hang out with. Can't say I have heard the same about LA. :beer:

I still love watching the LA clips - hell of a cyclist even if he is an @ss, doped or not.

Heck, it really is stupid - how can any of us believe that these athletes havent taken every step they can to win... especially when the "machine" is geared to produce winners at all costs.

[sychan]

My take on the situation is that in order to be a great champion/figure with in any sport you must process a competitive drive that the rest of us don't understand. It would not surprise me to learn that LA, Ullrich, MJ, TW and the like, all used PEDs at some point.

If GL didn't, it is ONLY because the opportunity did not present itself.


Reading the article, it sounds like Lemond has his chance to take up meds and stay in the game, but was too proud to go that route. As far as evidence of LA doping, Lemond had his illicit phone recording.

For what its worth, it looks to me like Greg Lemond was a winner because he was a freak of nature, with his crazy VO2max, and Lance Armstrong is a winner because he, like the other guys he competes against, is a freak of science from the performance meds.

Which is the more honest route to being a champion? Because the genetic dice roll gave you a crazy VO2max, or that your training and meds are better than those of your competitors, despite starting out as a mediocre talent?

[michael white]

Reading the article, it sounds like Lemond has his chance to take up meds and stay in the game, but was too proud to go that route. As far as evidence of LA doping, Lemond had his illicit phone recording.

For what its worth, it looks to me like Greg Lemond was a winner because he was a freak of nature, with his crazy VO2max, and Lance Armstrong is a winner because he, like the other guys he competes against, is a freak of science from the performance meds.

Which is the more honest route to being a champion? Because the genetic dice roll gave you a crazy VO2max, or that your training and meds are better than those of your competitors, despite starting out as a mediocre talent?

sorry, but this is bull****. Look up what Lance was doing at age 18. Check it out, then come back and tell us it was all drugs.

[MarleyMon]

...
With that said, I think that neither of them are/were American heroes....
I think they both qualify as heroic because they each overcame a near death experience to not only live, but to succeed.
Their courage, drive and ability were exceptional.

[stormyClouds]

I think they both qualify as heroic because they each overcame a near death experience to not only live, but to succeed.
Their courage, drive and ability were exceptional.

I agree with the last sentence, I guess the hero part is up for interpretation.
I would never take away anything from either of their athletic accomplishments (or their comeback stories).
However, I wouldn't want my daughter dating either of those guys.
And while their success in the Tour helped the business/popularity of cycling in the USA, their childish feuding certainly doesn't help cycling's rep much (IMO).
If those two really had class, they would both stop taking interviews about each other. I bet after about a dozen "no comment" answers to questions regarding their relationship with each other (and other cyclists), the media would leave it alone.
Or, if they were really good guys, they would publicly compliment each other's victories and leave all of the other BS and innuendo to private conversations with their friends and families.

[BBB]

sorry, but this is bull****. Look up what Lance was doing at age 18. Check it out, then come back and tell us it was all drugs.

Armstrong was certainly exceptional at a young age, but his VO2 max was not in the LeMond league. Hence pre-cancer Armstrong was able to blitz one day races and week long stage races but was pack fodder in time trials and the mountains in the TdF.

[Dekonick]

sorry, but this is bull****. Look up what Lance was doing at age 18. Check it out, then come back and tell us it was all drugs.

OK - Drugs and genetics

[93legendti]

sorry, but this is bull****. Look up what Lance was doing at age 18. Check it out, then come back and tell us it was all drugs.
Yup...and then he lost ~8 kg after he had cancer. I heard a rumor that a favorable power to weight ratio is important for climbing and races against the clock.

OTOH, Roy Knickman had a huge VO2 max and did nothing in Europe.

http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders/rider_bio.asp?rider_id=30

"...After the cancer, however, his body dropped most of its muscle mass. Through training, Armstrong further streamlined his body and rebuilt himself into a Tour de France contender. His weight after the rebuild was 15 pounds (7 kg) less than his racing weight prior to the cancer..."

[jdoiv]

Yup...and then he lost ~8 kg after he had cancer. I heard a rumor that a favorable power to weight ratio is important for climbing and races against the clock.

OTOH, Roy Knickman had a huge VO2 max and did nothing in Europe.

Yeah a great VO2 max doesn't mean squat if your not in shape for bike racing. I remember LeMond did an off season training regime of cross country skiing one year. He was in great aerobic shape, but had put on lots of dense muscle in his upper body. That didn't help him get up the mountains and he didn't do good that year. He's still my favorite of the two though. And I would rather have a beer with him than LA.

[BBB]

Yup...and then he lost ~8 kg after he had cancer. I heard a rumor that a favorable power to weight ratio is important for climbing and races against the clock.

OTOH, Roy Knickman had a huge VO2 max and did nothing in Europe.

His body appeared leaner following cancer and no doubt he did in fact lose some weight, but possibly not to the extent than has been noted. For example, his pre-season body weight in 1993 was 76.5kgs, while pre-season 1999 it was 79.7kgs. Racing weight in September 1993 (ie about the time he became world champion) was 75.1kgs. Racing weight in the TdF post-cancer has been reported between 72-74kgs. So the power to weight ratio issue is probably not as great as reported and the improvement pre and post cancer must be also due to other factors, like increased efficiency through higher cadence or reaching athletic peak in his late 20s. Obviously there are other unknowns that may have been factors, liked determination post-cancer or chemical assistance, but that just opens up the did he or didn't he debate.

It would be interesting to lab test athletes from a young age and track performance through out a career. Maybe a prospective PhD student looking at an academic career in physiology ought approach Taylor Phinney.

[93legendti]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Armstrong#Cancer_can_be_performance-enhancing

[edit] Possible consequences of cancer
A 2006 article claims that Armstrong's testicular cancer actually helped him during the Tour de France.[7] The article outlines that surgical removal of testicles (even one) re-positions the body's hormonal system, playing with the feedback system of normal testosterone production. Consequently, a cascade of events which allegedly favor or enhance endurance performance is proposed by the authors. They suggest that the increase in LH to testosterone ratio and the increase in free fatty acid (FFA) to glycogen utilisation ratio which resulted in an increase in power-to-weight ratio (a favourable characteristic for mountain climbing) and a remodeling of type I and type II muscle fibers in Armstrong's physiology all contributed to his athletic prowess.[citation needed] Another mechanism by which the authors propose that Armstrong obtained and maintained his super physiology was that the altered hormonal state induced an increase in the production of red blood cells (RBCs)...

[edit] Cancer can be performance-enhancing
A recent article claims that the American legend's testicular cancer actually helped him during the Tour de France.[11] The article outlines that surgical removal of testicles (even one) re-positions the body's hormonal system, playing with the feedback system of normal testosterone production. Consequently, a cascade of events which allegedly favour or enhance endurance performance is proposed by the authors. They suggest that the increase in LH to testosterone ratio and the increase in free fatty acid (FFA) to glycogen utilisation ratio which resulted in an increase in power-to-weight ratio (a favourable characteristic for mountain climbing) and a remodelling of type I and type II muscle fibres in Armstrong's physiology all contributed to him becoming the super-athlete that he is or was.

Another mechanism by which the authors propose that Armstrong obtained and maintained his super physiology was that the altered hormonal state induced an increase in the production of red blood cells (RBCs). While the key to enhanced endurance is oxygen availability supplied by blood cells, to suggest that in the case of Armstrong this could have been provided by the extra blood produced as a consequence of the hormone imbalance is drawing a long bow, particularly in view of the evidence provided by the authors...
__________________________________________________ _______________

7. Med Hypotheses. 2006 Nov 7; Metabolic clues regarding the enhanced performance of elite endurance athletes from orchiectomy-induced hormonal changes. Authors: Atwood CS, Bowen RL.

11. Med Hypotheses. 2006 Nov 7; Metabolic clues regarding the enhanced performance of elite endurance athletes from orchiectomy-induced hormonal changes. Authors: Atwood CS, Bowen RL.

[capybaras]

Articulation. In this arena of communication, Greg is at the back of the peleton. Watching and listening to him a few days ago, sitting next to Bobke, LeMond's answers to simple questions were difficult to follow.

Lance Armstrong = Handsome, gifted speaker.
Greg LeMond = Not so easy on the eyes and his mouth is filled with marbles.

I believe these are the two, primary reasons why LeMond has been viewed by the media and public as he has; still, I get and understand what Greg LeMond says.

Maybe Greg should check out the English version of those Rosetta Stone tapes they keep advertising. :beer:

P.S. Greg Lemond is cute enough :)