OT: the future of the USA

[39cross]

There is a very well written article in the UK Telegraph which takes a hard look at conditions on the ground, as it were. If you are looking for an antidote for the good mood you're in, you'll find it here. Happy 3rd of July!

America and China: The Eagle and the Dragon Part two: Requiem for a dream (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/portal/main.jhtml?xml=/portal/2008/07/05/sm_america05.xml)

[Pete Serotta]

You should still be in a good mood and thankful for what you have. An ole saying is "nothing is ever as bad, or as good, as you think it is at that moment. Clearly our country has some ways and habits to change.

The "let me have some more debt" has to change. Additionally. we need to start investing in a future for our young via education changes and investments in US business done in the US.

There is no single answer or solution for a resolution and it will not be easy - but we need to get started down the road.

Leadership is required in both Government and in Business. (AND THIS HAS NOT BEEN SHOWN YET!) THe question than becomes when will it be shown, how, and by who? That is a question that I wish I had an answer to.


Have a HAPPY 4th and give thanks for what you have - family, health, food, and relative freedom to live your life the way you wish!! ;) ;)

[WadePatton]

Negative thinking: We are headed toward a NA Union and more socialist policies.

Positive thinking: Things will settle substantially once the election is over and this country has survived worse things than--well all the little piddly crap going on now.

My Own Perssonal Reality: Take care of self and count on self to be personally responsible for own health, income, and retirement. Give to and help family and friends and community. Never ever count on gubbermint to do anything but tax and spend.

[Chad Engle]

Please join me in voting for WadePatton for president. :beer:

[Enigma]

The basics in life - education, police, roads, bridges, etc. are all things that cost money and left completely to private interests will not serve society as a whole.

There is a role for government. But the right in the US thinks that all this stuff is "pork", but the military spending of trillions of dollars (FRNs? :o ) is "Security". And the left seems to think that we can tax our way to fiscal safety.

Both are wrong.

Happy 4th of July! :beer:

[WadePatton]

Please join me in voting for WadePatton for president. :beer:
Thanks but, pollyticks ain't my bag. I don't care what they pay...well, wait a minute...motorpacing and/or support (with guns) on every ride. hmmm

nah.

more solos.

[Tobias]

Both are wrong.Which leaves the middle. ;) And that's where I'll remain.
Unfortunately our society is becoming increasingly polarized.

[DukeHorn]

I disagree totally with the self-centered aspect of just worrying about myself and those close to me, but that's just me.

When a kid dies from cavities because his mom is too poor (or dumb) to take him to the hospital, that's something for us to worry and mourn about. It's an embarrassment to our community, even if that community happens to be on the other side of the country from me.

I'll repeat again. We try not to penalize kids for being born to sexual predators, not sure why we have a different standard for kids born to poor parents. [And you know what I'm talking about. All the talk about poor people getting what they deserve, I'm just unclear how this applies to poor children].

And frankly, I've seen plenty of homeless people (urinating at the Canadian Embassy in DC, on the streets in Austin, in downtown LA, tent city in Ontario). Is that a local, state or federal "community" issue?

I'll get flamed by people who never see the poverty and decay. I understand that.

[Tobias]

I'll repeat again. We try not to penalize kids for being born to sexual predators, not sure why we have a different standard for kids born to poor parents. [And you know what I'm talking about. All the talk about poor people getting what they deserve, I'm just unclear how this applies to poor children].In my opinion you are missing a much bigger picture.

It's not at all about poor people getting what they deserve -- no sane person would ever want a poor child to suffer in any way whatsoever.

It's about those who truly believe that the only way to make parents accountable is to force them to take care of their own children. It's simple. Love them and take care of them. If you can't, don't have them.

[thwart]

It's simple. Love them and take care of them. If you can't, don't have them. Wish it were so... simple...

Human drive to reproduce + no funds for medical care/contraception = unwanted kids

[39cross]

...There is no single answer or solution for a resolution and it will not be easy - but we need to get started down the road...I can't but help but believe you are a wise man, Pete...couldn't agree with you more.

Wade, maybe you'll settle for VP? ;)

Poverty in this country seems to be getting worse, I was rooting for John Edwards on this one.

[Tobias]

Poverty in this country seems to be getting worse, I was rooting for John Edwards on this one.I didn't realize he's that poor. :rolleyes:

[Tobias]

Wish it were so... simple...

Human drive to reproduce + no funds for medical care/contraception = unwanted kidsHow exactly does supporting unwanted kids reduce unwanted kids?

Support is not an answer. We must do better than throw fuel on a fire.

[rounder]

You should still be in a good mood and thankful for what you have. An ole saying is "nothing is ever as bad, or as good, as you think it is at that moment. Clearly our country has some ways and habits to change.

The "let me have some more debt" has to change. Additionally. we need to start investing in a future for our young via education changes and investments in US business done in the US.

There is no single answer or solution for a resolution and it will not be easy - but we need to get started down the road.

Leadership is required in both Government and in Business. (AND THIS HAS NOT BEEN SHOWN YET!) THe question than becomes when will it be shown, how, and by who? That is a question that I wish I had an answer to.


Have a HAPPY 4th and give thanks for what you have - family, health, food, and relative freedom to live your life the way you wish!! ;) ;)

Another vote for Pete. Good attitude man.

[Ray]

In my opinion you are missing a much bigger picture.

It's not at all about poor people getting what they deserve -- no sane person would ever want a poor child to suffer in any way whatsoever.

It's about those who truly believe that the only way to make parents accountable is to force them to take care of their own children. It's simple. Love them and take care of them. If you can't, don't have them.

....AND....

How exactly does supporting unwanted kids reduce unwanted kids?

Support is not an answer. We must do better than throw fuel on a fire.

I haven't read the article - just browsing the thread.

Tobias, what is YOUR solution?

I agree that just indiscriminately supporting poor people who have kids is not the solution. We tried that very badly with the old welfare system which actually rewarded having more kids by paying the parents more money, particularly single mothers, which had every unintended consequence in the book. We did the lion's share of raising my wife's nephew who came into the world that way. He had a drugged out father (my bro-in-law) and a mom who had several kids by different fathers, collected the welfare checks as long as she could, and abandoned them. This poor kid never had a chance. Despite our best efforts and his grandparents' best efforts and the support of every public and private agency in creation, he dropped out of school and is basically living on the streets now. We nearly destroyed our family trying to help him, as did others in the extended family to one degree or another.

I believe the welfare reform in the '90s eliminated that direct incentive. That's a good thing IMHO. We helped create and basically lost a big chunk of a couple of generations of underclass kids that way.

But people always have and always will have kids they can't or won't be able to support. So what do you do? Just leaving them on the street and letting them rot isn't the asnwer. I think you have to at least try to offer them services without creating the incentives to have them in the first place. I honestly don't know the answer, or if there is one, and god knows I've grappled with this one a LOT. But I don't think you can just say we have to make parents accountable, because its the kids (who did NOTHING wrong) who suffer more than the parents (who did).

So, seriously man, what would you do? I don't think there's any correct left or right solution to this problem, but adhering to just the typical left or right position is guaranteed to make the problem worse. It seems some imperfect road down the middle that muddles through is likely the best we can do, but that involves some government aid and support for those kids. But not so much and not structured in a way that gives the parents incentives to just have more.

What do you think? Really?

-Ray

[39cross]

Ray, if you have 5 minutes to read the UK article I think you would get something out of it...would be interesting to hear your opinion. It's eye-opening to get the perspective of an intelligent outside observer, this kind of reporting just isn't done in the US, it seems.

Your experience with the issue Tobias raised gives you insight which I'm guessing probably most of us on this forum lack - certainly I do. You can't help people who don't want to be helped, but for those who do, they should be able to get jobs and a decent roof over their heads and enough to eat, daycare and health care. That would be a start. How we make it happen is the billion dollar question.

[sailorboy]

I hate to beat the 'Japan vs. USA' experience to death, but after spending 3 years in a country with relatively small land mass/natural resources to support a rather dense population and has done so for many more hundreds of years than us, I would say that until many Americans get over their 'me first, screw the next guy' and 'bigger, better, faster' mentalities, we will continue to spiral downward.

To me that also pretty much ties in all the over-consumption that is feeding the machine at a rate we can't continue for too much longer.

[Tobias]

Tobias, what is YOUR solution?

I agree that just indiscriminately supporting poor people who have kids is not the solution. We tried that very badly with the old welfare system which actually rewarded having more kids by paying the parents more money, particularly single mothers, which had every unintended consequence in the book. We did the lion's share of raising my wife's nephew who came into the world that way.
.........snipped............
What do you think? Really?

-RayRay, I’m sorry to read about your nephew. I hope he can turn his life around; not only for himself but for those who obviously love him.

Honestly, I don’t have an answer, but feel any viable answer must lie in humility (and an extreme amount of tough love). By that I mean we must first accept that Nature / God / Creator (or whatever your beliefs are regarding how our small planet was created and functions) did not mean life to always be equitable, easy, joyous, etc…. From my perspective, if Nature / God / Creator didn’t make life “fair” for all, what makes us think we can? That’s extreme arrogance in my book. Basically, it is my opinion that anything that doesn’t work within the confines of nature doesn’t stand a chance. All the good intentions in the universe will fail miserably when programs try to circumvent nature – in this case human nature.

Our first step should be to set both politics and religion aside for an instance, and accept (or better yet to embrace) that whoever or whatever created life did not intend it to be equitable; or that if He did, He did a lousy job implementing such a system. And I can’t believe the “Creator” could be that stupid and naïve.

Humility should make it easier to accept that we can’t improve on nature and fix all (or most) problems with short-term solutions. Life is not fair -- many times it’s cruel and brutal. It is what it is. But I trust there is a plan I can not possibly comprehend that makes it necessary in order for life to be better in the long run.

Ray, when I hike through parks and see some animals that are born large, strong, fast and intelligent while others are born small, weak, slow, and stupid, I can’t help but think that the whole human idea of “equality” is naïve. Worse yet is trying to make things equal.

If Nature / God / Creator didn’t see it as necessary, who am I to improve on His work? I honestly think most of our problems come from trying to make life fair for all when it wasn't meant to be. It may sound harsh but it's the way I see it. Nature left us a detailed blueprint and we refuse to follow it.

I keep trying, but don’t really expect to succeed. It’s stupid on my part. I blame it on remnants of religion left in my brain.

[bike <3'er]

Today is a celebration of freedom.
America is a country of utmost freedom.
Freedom, choices, options.
The poor and sick still flock here.
To become a part of America.
To be an American.
We are not perfect.
No country and no people are.
Yet we strive for perfection.
We argue with eachother on how to achieve that perfection.
We'll fight eachother in a Civil War to maintain our ideals.
We're attacked from abroad from those who hate our ideals.
And we'll always defeat those who attack us.
Because as nice and sleepy a giant as we might be, we win.
America speaks of it's light shining on a hill.
Our light is still on.
Are harbors are still your new home.
Come share the light.
Just pay your bills, pay your way and don't look for a handout.
If you're poor, blame yourself first.
If you're rich, enjoy your success and be grateful.
Today is about our flag:
Red is for hardiness and valour.
White is for purity and innocence.
Blue is for vigilance, perseverance and justice.
Our colors.
Our country and our freedom.

:beer:

[girlie]

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

[Ray]

Ray, if you have 5 minutes to read the UK article I think you would get something out of it...would be interesting to hear your opinion. It's eye-opening to get the perspective of an intelligent outside observer, this kind of reporting just isn't done in the US, it seems.

Your experience with the issue Tobias raised gives you insight which I'm guessing probably most of us on this forum lack - certainly I do. You can't help people who don't want to be helped, but for those who do, they should be able to get jobs and a decent roof over their heads and enough to eat, daycare and health care. That would be a start. How we make it happen is the billion dollar question.
OK, I read the first two parts. None of it is surprising to me. The whole idea of "American exceptionalism" has always seemed like a joke to me. I guess I'm not patriotic enough. But I never thought we were somehow genetically or spiritually better than anyone else. The thing that made us as great as we were was the incredible wisdom of our founding fathers to establish a set of freedoms and checks and balances that would prevent us from giving into our worst instincts. And it worked brilliantly for a long time.

But we've gotten soooooo damn comfortable. Both materially and from a security standpoint. And we forgot somewhere along the line that comfort and material wealth isn't what made us great or makes us great. But its sure allowed us to get belligerent and arrogant. And then when threatened, we were willing to just give away many of the freedoms and checks and balances that made us great. We're attacked and the president commands us to "go shopping". Are you frickin' KIDDING me? And a lot of people buy into some new definition of patriotism that's somehow come to mean "support our current leadership" no matter how wrongheaded and sometimes even evil you find them to be. And so we get into incredibly messed up wars that are all about trying to control the flow of the last few drops of oil so we can continue to "go shopping" and if we oppose them we're not patriots. I can't fight it on the streets, so I just rant on from time to time.

Also, in terms of part 2 of the article, I've spent my professional life as a land use and transportation planner. For 25 years of my career and a while before that we've been trying to explain the long term folly of the suburbs. For 25 years or more the market has made us pretty close to irrelevant. To make a living as a planner, you generally spent X number of weeks trying to get governments to change their zoning to something more sustainable than the typical 1-2 acre lot suburban zoning, lose that argument 95% of the time, and then spend 5X number of weeks writing the zoning for that very development pattern you knew was leading to our ruin. So am I surprised that the bill is coming due and we can't pay it? Hell no - I've been shouting it from the rooftops for as long as I can remember. I've gotten used to nobody listening. Its still depressing and upsetting. But surprising? Not even slightly.

Look, I'm very materially comfortable but trying to live as frugally and as low impact a life as I can. I ride nice bikes and drink good coffee, but otherwise, we don't spend a lot on luxury. But I see this comfort as probably temporary. The end of our empire is either gonna come about gradually and we'll get through it and go on, like Britain has managed to do. Or it could happen with a total economic collapse, in which case all bets are off. We're in the relatively early stages of one of these outcomes. I suspect by 2020 we'll have a pretty good idea which it will be (or has been). I'm hoping for the former, fearing the latter, and still enjoying the day to day part of living. But I've never been an optimist and I see no reason to become one now!

I'm not sure how this discussion got around to welfare, to be honest - I didn't see much in those articles about it. But I've lived with that one and know there isn't a GOOD solution, just a lesser of evils. And I'm not sure where the lesser of evils lies on that one.

Sorry to rant (and on the 4th of July, no less), but every now and then I can't help it.

-Ray

[Ray]

Ray, when I hike through parks and see some animals that are born large, strong, fast and intelligent while others are born small, weak, slow, and stupid, I can’t help but think that the whole human idea of “equality” is naïve. Worse yet is trying to make things equal.

If Nature / God / Creator didn’t see it as necessary, who am I to improve on His work? I honestly think most of our problems come from trying to make life fair for all when it wasn't meant to be. It may sound harsh but it's the way I see it. Nature left us a detailed blueprint and we refuse to follow it.
I just saw your response after my lengthy rant in response to the articles. I'd just ask one question: Isn't what separates us from the animals you talk about the ability to TRY to make things a little closer to fair and, for lack of a better word, "humane"? I mean, understanding that we can never fully succeed and that there will always be inequities, shouldn't we TRY under the assumption that things will be better than if we just assume that the stronger should kill the weaker at every opportunity? I think we should. I think we HAVE and that's why we've done as well as we have as a species - it sure isn't because we're big and strong and fast and have sharp incisors. I think this is a fairly fundamental question.

Happy 4th (honestly, I mean that - not EVERYTHING I say is meant sarcastically!)

-Ray

[Tobias]

that all men are created equalI’m sure it’s not meant literally. We have equal rights but not equal capabilities.
To assume equal capabilities as a basis for policy is disastrous in my opinion.

[Tobias]

I'd just ask one question: Isn't what separates us from the animals you talk about the ability to TRY to make things a little closer to fair and, for lack of a better word, "humane"?Ray, don’t blame me, blame God. He made life inhumane for many, right?
That’s a question I struggle with a lot also.
It’s not about us trying to separate ourselves from animals,
it’s about us trying to think we can do better than God.
In essence we keep trying to prove He is/was wrong.

If you don’t like God, substitute Nature, Creator, etc…
Same result – life sucks for some more than others.
If you can explain why His creation is wrong I’d like to hear it.

OK, time to celebrate the good and forget the crappy stuff around us.

[CMY]

To assume equal capabilities as a basis for policy is disastrous in my opinion.
Well.. that's exactly where we are right now.

The scariest thing I can think of is that the truly great, intelligent, well-meaning people in this country know enough to stay far, far away from holding any sort of public position. We have no real leaders anymore (and no, neither of the presidential candidates offers any hope of changing this).

[97CSI]

Wish it were so... simple...

Human drive to reproduce + no funds for medical care/contraception = unwanted kidsNot so sure it is a "drive to reproduce" as it is a drive to prove you are a 'man' or to have 'someone to love you'. I teach poors kids every school day in a poor district. Society must set standards and enforce them. That includes the ability to have children and take care of them. Unfortunately, we don't.