Censorship and Hypocrisy

[Ahneida Ride]

I was recently censored at the "other" establishment for post about frns
and the banking system.

A thread was started about oil prices and how they would impact the
economy. I expressed my opinion with my usual verbiage about how
in Dollars gas is 16 cents a gallon and how we are destroying our
currency my creating frns outa thin air to support a 12 Trillion National
debt. I stated that food prices were next to go ballistic.

I have posted here many times over the past two years, offering my perspective and an admonition. Never once have I been told to shut up.

Some threads I have participate in have been closed, and many threads
I have not participated in have been closed. But never once has a
Moderator warned me to "cease and desist" my "theory". My theory comes
straight out of the fed reserve publication Modern Money Mechanics (http://landru.i-link-2.net/monques/mmm2.html) .

"We got it at the old forum."
Actually, I was approached my numerous Phorumites at the last TdFL
and personally thanked for posting about Money and how it is created.

I find it quite remarkable that a community that was started because some
found this humble abode too restrictive, has a moderator who imposes far more draconian policies then Ben could ever imagine. :eek:

[Reg Pither]

You, sir, are an ass.

Maybe the feedback will spare another poor Dunkin Donuts employee (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=454894&postcount=6) from your blather.

[Kevan]

I wanted to be the first here.

I appreciate this site a great deal. This is more...my kinda people.

[fiamme red]

You, sir, are an ass.

Maybe the feedback will spare another poor Dunkin Donuts employee (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=454894&postcount=6) from your blather.Hey Roman,

The link in your signature leads nowhere. Is that intentional?

:bike:

p.s. Your stem is too short. :no:

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/v/vienna/viennafiles/michaux-velocipede-1865.jpg

[Acotts]

I was recently censored at the "other" establishment for post about frns
and the banking system.

A thread was started about oil prices and how they would impact the
economy. I expressed my opinion with my usual verbiage about how
in Dollars gas is 16 cents a gallon and how we are destroying our
currency my creating frns outa thin air to support a 12 Trillion National
debt. I stated that food prices were next to go ballistic.

I have posted here many times over the past two years, offering my perspective and an admonition. Never once have I been told to shut up.

Some threads I have participate in have been closed, and many threads
I have not participated in have been closed. But never once has a
Moderator warned me to "cease and desist" my "theory". My theory comes
straight out of the fed reserve publication Modern Money Mechanics (http://landru.i-link-2.net/monques/mmm2.html) .

"We got it at the old forum."
Actually, I was approached my numerous Phorumites at the last TdFL
and personally thanked for posting about Money and how it is created.

I find it quite remarkable that a community that was started because some
found this humble abode too restrictive, has a moderator who imposes far more draconian policies then Ben could ever imagine. :eek:

Dont let the man keep you down.

[Ginger]

Yeah, but they let you advertise your bar wrap without having to be coy about it.

Theoretically, you shouldn't do that here, but you do.

Where does that fit in?

[texbike]

Brother, I feel you.

Even though your theories and arguments make sense, they are lost on 99% or more of the general U.S. population.

My guess is that most don't get it and don't want to hear it because it hurts their head. For most it would probably come across as a whacko rant and annoy the F out of them. The censorship of your comments on the other page is probably a result of complaints to the moderator. Or maybe the mod just doesn't get it.

Maybe it is a sign to save the FRN discussion for those who can appreciate it.

Cheers,

Texbike

[BumbleBeeDave]

d.I find it quite remarkable that a community that was started because some found this humble abode too restrictive, has a moderator who imposes far more draconian policies then Ben could ever imagine. :eek:

Just human nature. The cool kids don't let just anyone sit at their table. You have to show the sufficient degree of supplication first. It shouldn't surprise you that they--I guess whoever "they" are--wouldn't be able to tolerate disagreement or debate. I don't always agree with what you say, but I respect your right to go ahead and say it. What you say is certainly not insulting or denigrating. It may come across as a bit wacky or grinding an axe to those who don't know you, but so what? Those who know you and like you understand and don't mind. Those who don't know you and understand what a nice guy you are aren't worth getting wound up over.

BBD

[hansolo758]

Is the "other site" still operational? Whenever I visit it, it seems to be down.

[M.Sommers]

1). I have received numerous PM's from people who have joined the other site, swam to that island and are shocked at the level of censorship.

2). It would seem, perhaps, the other site has taken to the saying, "In order to defeat the monster...you must become the monster"; indeed that other site was created with the kool aid of freedom for all and yet, their fangs are sharper than anything they whined or complained about whilst they were here.

3). Reg Pither, Roman Meal, Avatar of David S...you are an embarrassment only to your own selves. You cannot attack, insult, troll and think you can claim the high road, no, you've bonked and jumped the shark many miles ago. You've insulted me, personally and I'd like to make you and your entire gang aware that I'd defeat you in a game of chess, checkers, a sprint around the crit or just an old fashioned walk around the block. How? I'd simply let you defeat yourselves, which you are quite good at. Heck, doing so with half my brain and my right vastus medialis tied behind my back would only make it fair.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that those who professed to be through hanging around here still do, apparently with the goal of jumping in and insulting people at will.

Now that's taking the high road . . .

BBD

[Volant]

Why does it bother you? Didn't you know it was a controlled environment from the get-go?

[Spinner]

... coming. i have always thought that your posts about monetary issues to be based on sound insight and reality, which is something that you rarely get from the political class, the power brokers at the top of the pyramid, or the economists who work for the aforementioned.

thanks for expressing reality.

[M.Sommers]

Why does it bother you? Didn't you know it was a controlled environment from the get-go?

A). Bow to ATMO
B). Backslap eachother amongst the hypocrisy
C). Buy all your stuff from Svelte
D). Lather, rinse, repeat all of the above

Someone had to say it.

:beer:

[Ginger]

The whole "here vs. there" troll thread thing is stupid every time it happens.

There. Someone had to say it.



They're both forums. They're different forums with different types of moderation.
Who cares where you post other than yourself?

[paczki]

The whole "here vs. there" troll thread thing is stupid every time it happens.

There. Someone had to say it.



They're both forums. They're different forums with different types of moderation.
Who cares where you post other than yourself?

I would agree, if Roman didn't feel a need to troll here. I haven't really looked at any of the threads from the other Forum, but I doubt anyone here is trolling there. Someone had to say it.

[capybaras]

You, sir, are an ass.

Maybe the feedback will spare another poor Dunkin Donuts employee (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=454894&postcount=6) from your blather.

Reg,
I liked it when you were funny. What happened?
xo,
capybaras

[paczki]

A). Bow to ATMO
B). Backslap eachother amongst the hypocrisy
C). Buy all your stuff from Svelte
D). Lather, rinse, repeat all of the above

Someone had to say it.

:beer:

Your hurt feelings are making you a bit unfair. You used to "backslap" Swoop, ATMO, etc. -- which is fine. Flux is a nice guy, I buy from him. All is cool, except Roman who should be doing a little less trolling.

[cdimattio]

Even though your theories and arguments make sense, they are lost on 99% or more of the general U.S. population.

My guess is that most don't get it and don't want to hear it because it hurts their head.

I am not sure I completely agree. The demographic here appears to be well educated, and I am sure the arguements are neither not understood or lost with the audience.

While I may agree with many of the thoughts, I generally do not seek out such subjects on a cycling board. In addition, the commentary is dilluted by the repetition.

For me it is akin to the repetitive editorials I get in Forbes Magazine with regard to a gold standard. I likely got my fill during his presidential bid in 1996, but it seems that Steve Forbes seems to find a way to weave it into every issue of my business magazine.

Well understood, but not the content I am seeking. No complaints as I respect the passion and it is easy to skip over.

[girlie]

A). Bow to ATMO
B). Backslap eachother amongst the hypocrisy
C). Buy all your stuff from Svelte
D). Lather, rinse, repeat all of the above

Someone had to say it.

:beer:

I look over there it's funny and they are smart.
Say what you want about the censorship and what not........seriously say what you think and believe......everyone make up your own mind and how to deal with it. I'm entertained. It's funny cause it's true.

A) bow to ATMO or eat on the floor (I like the floor:)
B) hypocrisy is the new religion
C) I would buy from SvelteCycles.com
D) sometimes I shower

[Ahneida Ride]

I might add that I also support the concept of Private Property.

I fully support both forums right to dictate policy and by which I must abide.

I am merely a guest and post at the priviledge of the hosts.

[capybaras]

I look over there it's funny and they are smart.
Say what you want about the censorship and what not........seriously say what you think and believe......everyone make up your own mind and how to deal with it. I'm entertained. It's funny cause it's true.

A) bow to ATMO or eat on the floor (I like the floor:)
B) hypocrisy is the new religion
C) I would buy from SvelteCycles.com
D) sometimes I shower


You don't really have to pay, do you? :confused:

[M.Sommers]

Your hurt feelings are making you a bit unfair. You used to "backslap" Swoop, ATMO, etc. -- which is fine. Flux is a nice guy, I buy from him. All is cool, except Roman who should be doing a little less trolling.

I defended the trashing of them which took place post-their-exit. I simply don't feel like it any longer. I wouldn't ever acknowledge backslapping anyone except Han Solo and Chewie, I had great fun with Swoop as he is quite a witty character. I wouldn't say I'm hurt at all, but I would say I'm simply being honest.

We don't know who this Reg Pither cat is, could be Roman, or any one of them, right? In the end, all of it doesn't matter whatsoever. I still root for Flux when he races atmo.

And lastly, it's not about me. What the OP offers is a slice of what I hear about regularly, "Dude, the other place is precisely what they claimed they hated over here." In order to defeat a monster, you don't have to become one atmo.

[texbike]

I am not sure I completely agree. The demographic here appears to be well educated, and I am sure the arguements are neither not understood or lost with the audience.

While I may agree with many of the thoughts, I generally do not seek out such subjects on a cycling board. In addition, the commentary is dilluted by the repetition.

For me it is akin to the repetitive editorials I get in Forbes Magazine with regard to a gold standard. I likely got my fill during his presidential bid in 1996, but it seems that Steve Forbes seems to find a way to weave it into every issue of my business magazine.

Well understood, but not the content I am seeking. No complaints as I respect the passion and it is easy to skip over.

Agreed. My comments weren't directed at this Forum. It is the general population (reflected in the guy from Dunkin Donuts) that is the target of my opinion.

Texbike

[39cross]

I am going to go out on a limb here and predict 2,659 views before this one goes cold.

FRN's come and go...but the love fest never ends.

[zap]

I "pop" over every once in a while.

No surprise. The "other" is a business and control (of a certain culture) is what it is.

[M.Sommers]

I "pop" over every once in a while.

No surprise. The "other" is a business and control (of a certain culture) is what it is.

Perhaps you've summed it up best. Good post.

:beer:

[Tobias]

I find it quite remarkable that a community that was started because some
found this humble abode too restrictive, has a moderator who imposes far more draconian policies then Ben could ever imagine. :eek:Maybe it's more about personal payback than about being restrictive.
Are they restrictive to others in general? Don't know and don't care.

[thejen12]

I don't understand why we're posting about another forum here. Shall I start airing my gripes about all the other forums I participate on in this forum? Gee, wouldn't that be something everyone would want to read about. :rolleyes:

If you've got a beef with another forum, don't bring it here - we can't do anything about it and we don't need the negativity.

I think all threads about other forums should be locked or deleted.

Jenn

[Bruce K]

+1 for jenn.

There is there and here is here.

Let's just enjoy who and what we have here.

BK

[paczki]

I don't understand why we're posting about another forum here. Shall I start airing my gripes about all the other forums I participate on in this forum? Gee, wouldn't that be something everyone would want to read about. :rolleyes:

If you've got a beef with another forum, don't bring it here - we can't do anything about it and we don't need the negativity.

I think all threads about other forums should be locked or deleted.

Jenn

Well said. Kill it.

[William]

AR,

How about some pink bar wrap?? ;) :D



William

[Ginger]

Maybe it's more about personal payback than about being restrictive.
Are they restrictive to others in general? Don't know and don't care.


Well, they do remove any posts and threads bashing the Serotta forum. That I *did* notice.


go Jenn go

[M.Sommers]

Well, they do remove any posts and threads bashing the Serotta forum. That I *did* notice.


go Jenn go

Who can put a leash on Roman Meal, Rig Pither etc atmo? As was pointed out, doesn't seem like any *adults* from here have made a point to troll over there.

[girlie]

I enjoy the free for all.

No censorship of almost any kind is more my style.
There is beauty in the ugly imho - Mapplethorpe gave us that. To see all of us as we are. It's life it's natural and it's how we each choose to handle it.
To each their own...if payback is the motivation or if being the sound head in the situation is your gig - so be it. In the end I choose for myself and I always appreciate the ability to make that choice for myself without the hand of intervention.

Just sayin'

[Sandy]

I don't understand why we're posting about another forum here. Shall I start airing my gripes about all the other forums I participate on in this forum? Gee, wouldn't that be something everyone would want to read about. :rolleyes:

If you've got a beef with another forum, don't bring it here - we can't do anything about it and we don't need the negativity.

I think all threads about other forums should be locked or deleted.

Jenn

I do think that there have been some excellent thoughts expressed within this thread, but your post is probably the one that makes the most sense. Buy a MeiVici or don't buy a MeiVici. The choice is yours. Post only here, or post only there, or do as some do, and post at both places or elsewhere. Again, the choice is yours. I think that some believe there exists a bit of hypocrisy/incongruency/inconsisteny/favoritism/excessive moderator control at the forum alluded to, and they are reacting to that. But that, as you say will only bring negativity here. No doubt in my mind, such a thread will not be allowed there.

You are wise. We should just leave it alone and each person make his or her decision as where he or she wants to post or view.



Sandy

[William]

one troll does not a conspiracy make. Who knows who that was, but whoever it is probably is just a guy with a stick who knows how to stir up the nest. Let it go. As has been said already, that is there, this is here.




William

[Ginger]

Who can put a leash on Roman Meal, Rig Pither etc atmo? As was pointed out, doesn't seem like any *adults* from here have made a point to troll over there.

The same people on this site who put a leash on Viper. :) Or do you mean can anyone from the other site shut them up?

I don't believe the second statement is entirely true.
Generally, trolls are born and not made, they troll wherever they go.

[girlie]

I'd love an official definition of the notion/meaning of trolling.

Trolling:_________________________________________ __
__________________________________________________
__________________________________________________

[regularguy412]

Hear, hear for AR. He seems to have a pretty good handle on the politics of the economy and is just trying to explain to the rest of us (well, me) what's really going on and what the powers-that-be don't want us to know.

As far as other forums and their existence, the only way to deal with those who stoop to stepping on the heads of others just to feed their own egos -- is to ignore them.

Mike in AR:beer:

[Ginger]

I am going to go out on a limb here and predict 2,659 views before this one goes cold.

.

I'll go for 8 pages. But I don't post on them after 4...

[soulspinner]

The same people on this site who put a leash on Viper. :) Or do you mean can anyone from the other site shut them up?

I don't believe the second statement is entirely true.
Generally, trolls are born and not made, they troll wherever they go.


Ill go the environmental route. Ill bet his parents were trolls. Prolly Swoop would back me up...Juuuust playin.

[Dekonick]

I love trolling...

Last time I went I caught 6 rockfish over 32" - ate 'em too!

:D

[M.Sommers]

The same people on this site who put a leash on Viper. :) Or do you mean can anyone from the other site shut them up?

I don't believe the second statement is entirely true.
Generally, trolls are born and not made, they troll wherever they go.

Are you calling Roman Meal a troll?

[Ti Designs]

A few years ago there was this killer ride from Belmomt at 9:00 AM on Saturdays. Then the BRC boys decided to move their ride to 8:00 which was followed by another small group changing the starting point of their ride. Pretty soon the group ride became anyone who showed up, which was often nobody. In needing to make their own rules they managed to wrech the best thing going - good work!

So now we have a Serotta forum, and it seems Serotta has clamped down on those who have been pushing product other than Serotta. So the first small group leaves and starts their own forum, but it doesn't end there. The new group imposes it's own rules and other splinter groups are formed. meanwhile back at the Serotta forum, people start missing the cool members and just stop showing up. Pretty soon there are 37 forums, each with 4 members (really only two 'cause each posts under two different screen name) and what started out as a good thing is dead. I feel like I've seen this movie before...


Bottom line, the forum started by Serotta was a good thing. You can make up any excuse you would like, but if you screw up a good thing you're an idiot. I know this 'cause I've screwed up many things in the past, and I'm a known idiot. I'm guessing the idiot meetings are going to be crowded very soon.

[capybaras]

I love trolling...

Last time I went I caught 6 rockfish over 32" - ate 'em too!

:D

Is that that sport where you wrestle naked catfish?

[William]

A few years ago there was this killer ride from Belmomt at 9:00 AM on Saturdays. Then the BRC boys decided to move their ride to 8:00 which was followed by another small group changing the starting point of their ride. Pretty soon the group ride became anyone who showed up, which was often nobody. In needing to make their own rules they managed to wrech the best thing going - good work!

So now we have a Serotta forum, and it seems Serotta has clamped down on those who have been pushing product other than Serotta. So the first small group leaves and starts their own forum, but it doesn't end there. The new group imposes it's own rules and other splinter groups are formed. meanwhile back at the Serotta forum, people start missing the cool members and just stop showing up. Pretty soon there are 37 forums, each with 4 members (really only two 'cause each posts under two different screen name) and what started out as a good thing is dead. I feel like I've seen this movie before...


Bottom line, the forum started by Serotta was a good thing. You can make up any excuse you would like, but if you screw up a good thing you're an idiot. I know this 'cause I've screwed up many things in the past, and I'm a known idiot. I'm guessing the idiot meetings are going to be crowded very soon.

Hmmm, you're pretty smart for a dead guy.




William ;)

[flux]

.

[Lazy Bill]

I'd love an official definition of the notion/meaning of trolling.

Trolling:_________________________________________ __
__________________________________________________
__________________________________________________
here is the wikipedia article link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
it starts:
An internet troll is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

[girlie]

here is the wikipedia article link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
it starts:
An internet troll is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

Oh...isn't almost everyone a troll sometimes and aren't trolls funny?
Especially when clearly we are not only here for bike talk rather entertainment and expressing/communicating with others in this Post-Modern method.
Maybe the word troll needs an adjective before it in order to have meaning for me.
Like "Bad Troll" or "Evil Troll" or "Mean Troll" or "Well Trolled" or "Meaningfully Trolled"

Thanks for the definition:)

[benb]

A few years ago there was this killer ride from Belmomt at 9:00 AM on Saturdays. Then the BRC boys decided to move their ride to 8:00 which was followed by another small group changing the starting point of their ride. Pretty soon the group ride became anyone who showed up, which was often nobody. In needing to make their own rules they managed to wrech the best thing going - good work!

So now we have a Serotta forum, and it seems Serotta has clamped down on those who have been pushing product other than Serotta. So the first small group leaves and starts their own forum, but it doesn't end there. The new group imposes it's own rules and other splinter groups are formed. meanwhile back at the Serotta forum, people start missing the cool members and just stop showing up. Pretty soon there are 37 forums, each with 4 members (really only two 'cause each posts under two different screen name) and what started out as a good thing is dead. I feel like I've seen this movie before...


Bottom line, the forum started by Serotta was a good thing. You can make up any excuse you would like, but if you screw up a good thing you're an idiot. I know this 'cause I've screwed up many things in the past, and I'm a known idiot. I'm guessing the idiot meetings are going to be crowded very soon.

Most everybody had real jobs and many had families so it was natural to get riding done real early so the real important stuff could be done.. there was also always an undercurrent of "too many random people on our rides doing dangerous sh*t getting the police/locals/motorists pissed", etc.. Pretty sure this happened when I was a member and I don't even remember it being an issue or anyone even thinking twice about it. "Let's ride at 8 so we can finish earlier.. OK cool."

But anyway.. you got forums down pretty well.. it's the internet equivalent of kids taking their toys and going home, trying to feel important & powerful with an electronic fiefdom, etc.. you can probably trace it all back to the day AOL got connected to the internet.. but the behavior was probably going on with AOL and even BBS services prior to that. On the "original users" side the flame warrior side was there on Usenet but the whole "ownership" thing wasn't.

This forum is bizarre and would give most forum owners fits.. cause the people who run it are just employees with nothing really to prove and barely even make an appearance. It upsets the natural order of the web.

[Lifelover]

. . . that those who professed to be through hanging around here still do, apparently with the goal of jumping in and insulting people at will.

Now that's taking the high road . . .

BBD


Even more curious, it's clear from some of his post over there that even the "poster formally known as Swoop" is still lurking here.

I really couldn't care less, it's just curios. We like what we like and we are who we are.

Where we post changes nothing.

Ahneida Rider:

Keep posting here and there. It might qualify me as a troll, but I take a little pleasure knowing that every time I post over there as "Bike Rider" it might annoy a few of the Cabal.

[Smiley]

Anhieda Ride Man, I would think that the "Men In Black" you'd fear most then them on the Other side. Beware of dark suburbans following you on tonights ride. Remember when they threw a Pizza box with leftovers at you the last time out.


I love what you post BTW and if the freaking market keeps going down, we will all be believers of the FRNS theory :)

[maunahaole]

Interesting thread here. I'm going to weigh in on both sides....

AR - Everyone has seen the FRN dilution info a number of times now. It can be abbreviated to "insert FRN dilution info here". I don't think that any of us who have been on either forum for more than five minutes need to see the argument again. I'm not disputing the merit, or your right to say it...but enough with the full length version already. That being said, I don't mind it so much and your other posts are generally constructive and contribute positively to the overall dialog.

The other side - RS has posted a youtube clip of Mario Savio making a speech about first amendment rights, etc. on a sticky on the other forum. For those who don't know, Mario Savio was a student activist in the mid-to late 60's who was one of the first leaders of the free speech movement at UC Berkeley, which was triggered by UC not allowing certain types of speech on campus. He was eventually tracked by the FBI, etc. as a result of these actions. The level of government scrutiny on his life was such that it would be constitutionally offensive to even the most unsavory and suspect elements that are under the government microscope today. The irony is that AR got his post whacked for making what is in effect a political statement that is well thought out and presented. Personal attacks and the ability to drop an expletive, however, are not mitigated. Pretty twisted version of free speech.

Rant over. Carry on all, and have fun.

[shinomaster]

I'd love an official definition of the notion/meaning of trolling.

Trolling:_________________________________________ __
__________________________________________________
__________________________________________________




Yeah Swoop told me I was trolling.. Who knew? I'm not Your_friend! btw..

[Fixed]

swoop is the new sheriff
cheers but i still love him

[girlie]

swoop is the new sheriff
cheers but i still love him

I love Swoop too.

[shinomaster]

I love Swoop too.

What's not to love?

[capybaras]

Does anyone know of a forum where cowgirl isn't banned? IF so, I've got to go! :beer:

[girlie]

Does anyone know of a forum where cowgirl isn't banned? IF so, I've got to go! :beer:

I like how open you are about liking men:) Tis a beautiful thing.

[capybaras]

I like how open you are about liking men:) Tis a beautiful thing.

They have all the best penises. Not sure about the beautiful part, though.

[M.Sommers]

I'd love an official definition of the notion/meaning of trolling.

Trolling:_________________________________________ __
__________________________________________________
__________________________________________________

It's all a matter of perspectivemo. One man's troll is another man's "Poet, priest or politican" said Sting.

If they like you, you get their vote and you're in, maybe even in-charge and large, if not, welp, you might be a troll. The term 'troll' no longer has any meaning. I can say that if you ride Shimano...you are prone to trollhood (but don't worry there is a cooty shot-cure).

[capybaras]

Shimano + troll = good times :banana:

[paczki]

Shimano + troll = good times :banana:


POTM :banana: :banana: :banana:

[capybaras]

POTM :banana: :banana: :banana:

This month only has 30 days :confused:

[Pete Serotta]

We need to meet this summer in the wilds of the north east for a ride and wine!!!......


Censorship is never a good thing - it is a slippery slope (yes I have learned lots thru trial and mostly ERROR here......) It is really a fine line between censorship for a reason and censorship for the reason that the censor does not like or agree.

This forum has taught me lots about life and people. YEP I HAVE MADE MANY WONDERFUL FRIENDS HERE> (and you unfortunately for you are one of them)..... ;) ;) PETE


I was recently censored at the "other" establishment for post about frns
and the banking system.

A thread was started about oil prices and how they would impact the
economy. I expressed my opinion with my usual verbiage about how
in Dollars gas is 16 cents a gallon and how we are destroying our
currency my creating frns outa thin air to support a 12 Trillion National
debt. I stated that food prices were next to go ballistic.

I have posted here many times over the past two years, offering my perspective and an admonition. Never once have I been told to shut up.

Some threads I have participate in have been closed, and many threads
I have not participated in have been closed. But never once has a
Moderator warned me to "cease and desist" my "theory". My theory comes
straight out of the fed reserve publication Modern Money Mechanics (http://landru.i-link-2.net/monques/mmm2.html) .

"We got it at the old forum."
Actually, I was approached my numerous Phorumites at the last TdFL
and personally thanked for posting about Money and how it is created.

I find it quite remarkable that a community that was started because some
found this humble abode too restrictive, has a moderator who imposes far more draconian policies then Ben could ever imagine. :eek:

[William]

We need to meet this summer in the wilds of the north east for a ride and wine!!!......


Censorship is never a good thing - it is a slippery slope (yes I have learned lots thru trial and mostly ERROR here......) It is really a fine line between censorship for a reason and censorship for the reason that the censor does not like or agree.

This forum has taught me lots about life and people. YEP I HAVE MADE MANY WONDERFUL FRIENDS HERE> (and you unfortunately for you are one of them)..... ;) ;) PETE


Watch out Pete. AR has pink bar wrap and he's not afraid to use it! :D



William

[William]

I see an apology posted AR. TT is taking care of you man. :)



William

[flickwet]

Nobody really won but the fans lost most of all. Dilution is only a solution to some kinds of pollution, and it ruins good liquor

[Fixed]

bro and t.t is. a big man ..
t.t. has always been a bro and always will be he is family imho
cheers

[FMS_rider]

I have been preoccupied with trying to wrap up loose ends before I retire and for the past 2-3 months have only read an occasional post until very recently, and I am still trying to figure out what happened.

The bottom line for me is that there are people whom I respect and learn from and like who are now posting on both sites. I love this place and will continue to read and post here and hope to hell that the plug is never pulled. However, for certain technical questions or issues related to people who are spending most or all of their time on the other forum I will be posting there as well. I think the fact that Serotta bashing is not allowed on the Velocipede forum, as Ginger pointed out, is a good sign.

For me, Sandy's post in which he cites Jenn (#36 on page 3) pretty well sums up how I feel about the current situation, with the exception that I also feel a real sense of loss in the pit of my stomach.

Lew

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[shanerpvt]

for what it's worth, i appreciate AR bringing this to my attention. everytime i see him restate it, i hope someone else gets it.

not all together different that alot of idea's and questions that get recycled around here (and there).

here's to AR,

:beer:
shaner

[BumbleBeeDave]

Mapplethorpe "ugly"???

Hardly, imho: he was the Richard Avedon/Irving Penn of his generation: elegance above all.

Arbus was about ugliness inh; Walker Evans to some degree; some of the '80s ASU/UofC/UofNM grad. professor crowd; and a few of the "New Topographics" brothers; maybe even Egglestone somewhat.

But Mappy: he was way way pretty (him and his work): hell Patti "Not For My Sins" Smith was more about "ugly".

IMHO. The End.....

. . . is just a combo of Edward Weston and Richard Avedon, except with penises. Take Weston's pepper, put it on Avedon's plain white background, and add male member . . . Not much original there, IMHO . . .

BBD

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[girlie]

When I say Mapplethorpe was ugly I mean 'culturally ugly' - his subject matter was not allowed and he was able to show that beauty surpassed some cultural cliche.
Mapplethorpe was considered ugly in all of the ways I mean it.
But of course his photos were beautiful that is the point:)
For me that is like saying Warhol was over rated......and he would probably reply....that is the point.


I think he was original, and a great photographer, but not nearly the best of his generation, imho, and certainly not "ugly". Like I said, Diane Arbus and co. were interested in "ugly", and they paid a real price. They weren't Andy Warhol fashionistas.

And I really don't care if it's a pepper or Charis Weston's breasts/etc. or a Vogue model or a man's penis. It's all been done before.

It's either a good photograph or it isn't. I just think Mappy was/is overrated, but I think Annie Leibovitz is too, for instance.

[girlie]

Which fricking forum are you talking about now???

I'm soooo confused....(:ba:ona:eek:na:))

Try rereading it helps to put things into there proper place.

[Elefantino]

A). Bow to ATMO
B). Backslap eachother amongst the hypocrisy
C). Buy all your stuff from Svelte
D). Lather, rinse, repeat all of the above
I don't get number D.

[girlie]

I don't get number D.

Try rereading it helps to put things into there place.
Kind of like chasing your tail.....don't worry you will eventually catch it:)

[Elefantino]

Try rereading it helps to put things into there place.
Kind of like chasing your tail.....don't worry you will eventually catch it:)
OK, but if you repeat, don't you just keep going? Over and over?

Why do you need "repeat"? ;)

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[keno]

in engaging in A-C you pick up a certain amount of goad grit which needs to be eliminated before starting a new round afresh.

keno

[Fixed]

When I say Mapplethorpe was ugly I mean 'culturally ugly' - his subject matter was not allowed and he was able to show that beauty surpassed some cultural cliche.
Mapplethorpe was considered ugly in all of the ways I mean it.
But of course his photos were beautiful that is the point:)
For me that is like saying Warhol was over rated......and he would probably reply....that is the point.
imperfection is perfection
cheers atmo 1.1
cheers

[girlie]

imperfection is perfection
cheers atmo 1.1
cheers


It was well before atmo and it will be well after atmo = atmo.
:beer:

[johnnymossville]

I thought Warhol was overrated too, until I took my 1 year old daughter and wife to a Warhol opening at the Chrysler Museum many years ago. I've got huge respect for him now. In fact, he's my favorite 20th century Artist (so far). You (meaning anyone in the world) may disagree and that's fine, just don't try to control my thoughts.

Which brings me around to the whole forum crap that went on. It all comes down to not being able to accept that people have another point of view that may be just as valid as your own, and sometimes they might even be right.

At least that was my take.

[gone]

I am going to go out on a limb here and predict 2,659 views before this one goes cold.

FRN's come and go...but the love fest never ends.
We have a winner!

Although the topic did drift a bit.

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[Fixed]

where is manet when you need him?


. Chuck Close Roy Lichtenstein Alberto Giacometti

David Hockney Jackson Pollock
Picasso:

Max Ernst Robert Rauschenberg -
cheers some of my favs
and Keith Haring

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[girlie]

Man I'm an Ed Ruscha, Cindy Sherman, John Baldassari, Janine Antoni, Mel Bochner, Paul Pfeiffer, Barbara Kruger, Janet Cardiff, Felix Gonzalez, and Gary Hill fan.

AND Warhol.

:beer:

[M.Sommers]

imperfection is perfection
cheers atmo 1.1
cheers


Certain flaws are necessary for the whole. It would seem strange if old friends lacked certain quirks. ~Goethe
Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it. ~Salvador Dali
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. ~Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

But I always lean on Jonathon Livingston Seagull for the simple goals of life: striving for self-perfection and trying to understand love. Perfection might be a moving target, but it should always be the goal atmo.

"The gulls who scorn perfection for the sake of travel go nowhere, slowly. Those who put aside travel for the sake of perfection go anywhere, instantly. You will begin to touch heaven, Jonathan, in the moment that you touch perfect speed. And that isn't flying a thousand miles an hour, or a million, or flying at the speed of light. Because any number is a limit, and perfection doesn't have limits. Perfect speed, my son, is being there."

" Listen, everybody! There's no limit to how high we can fly! We can dive for fish and never have to live on garbage again!"
~Jonathon Livingston Seagull


:beer:

[johnnymossville]

One of my art teachers in college told me a story about Warhol that kinda put some things into perspective for me.

Warhol came to the university to do a talk/workshop. All the art school faculty took him to dinner and wanted to probe him with every philosophical art speek thing they could think of.

All Andy wanted to talk about was getting home to tend to the tomatoes in his garden. I enjoyed that.

[michael white]

There are films/interviews of Warhol that are an absolute riot. . . I highly recommend looking them up. He makes perfect sense in hindsight.

[rasterdogs]

I need Ahneida's Bar Wrap.

He's a good guy with the good stuff.

I'll pay in FRN's or whatever.

Cheers,
JimD

[M.Sommers]

I need Ahneida's Bar Wrap.

He's a good guy with the good stuff.

I'll pay in FRN's or whatever.

Cheers,
JimD

LOL.

We hate it when our friends' bar tape is better than ours:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb1uytt7zaM&feature=related

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[girlie]

I agree entirely with that list, + others...except for Warhol (but not as an artist; only as a PROvocateuer...).

:be:);)er::D(i.e. NFF:emotion/icon = really good red wine, sans bananas.....
.
.
.

You don't think Warhol paved the way for these artist. Like Picasso he redefined how one draws.
He understood the viewer and made it not about himself and all about the viewer.....yes by often making it all about the surface of himself but really a non-selfish act....a sort of self sacrifice...or rather a gift of self...he was a performance artist.....drawing off from the viewer and not from the same place as the tradition of the painter.

girlie

[Fixed]

you have to go to the factory to know for real cheers

[Steelhead]

I had a roommate in college that had an original Warhol lithograph in our apartment. It was a big one - we never locked the doors much, always had crazy parties and stuff -- his grandmother that had more oil money than they could ever count gave it to him.

[girlie]

you have to go to the factory to know for real cheers

But I cannot visit Rembrandt......yet I see and feel it and believe.
:)

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[M.Sommers]

But I cannot visit The Factory on Tatooine......yet I see and feel The Force and believe.
:)

Fixed.

:beer:

[M.Sommers]

Yes: absolutely....
But I think Picasso was a major artist who was a good msrketer;
I think Warhol was a minor artist who was a major marketer....
And our "branding" culture has evolved along Warhol's prescribed path, of course....He wasn't stupid.

Picasso could draw (anatomy, for instance) like crazy, like LdV....
AW couldn't draw anatomy better than a blind crab....

Unfortortunately, this is this "progress" of our art culture....

Someday, maybe you and I could talk about the "Italian" architect "David Fisher ("Italian" name: ***???), who was claiming yesterday to being the "first" architect to build "moving" skyscrapers....in $$$ Dubai, of course: whoredom conquers all, temporarily...and permanently in the saddest cases.

Warhol was marketing guru of art during a time (60's) when TV/Marketing/Advertising was King. He was a pimp, not a producer. Sliced Velveeta Cheese already existed, Warhold simply talked about the wrapper. Soup and Soda cannot compete with Picasso.

[johnnymossville]

Oh, Andy had skills drawing, check out some of his early figure drawing sketches. He was good.

The problem with drawing well, is that Art Schools are full of people that draw well.

[michael white]

you can't compare Warhol to Picasso--you can't compare anyone from the 20th C. to Picasso. Picasso was likely the only modern artist who has a fighting chance against the titans of the Golden Age . . . but the truth is that in that company, he doesn't shine so bright. Rembrandt? forget about it. Not to mention the Florentines.

But within the context of his generation, Warhol was visionary, and there is lyrical content which holds up and continues to move me. There's a lot of stunningly human improvisational grace. He is, of course, very easy to put down for all the reasons listed above, as well as simple bad taste . . . Putting him down as a hack, which he was, is so easy to do, he did it himself. Which only adds to his charm.

best,
mw

[Fixed]

Man I'm an Ed Ruscha, Cindy Sherman, John Baldassari, Janine Antoni, Mel Bochner, Paul Pfeiffer, Barbara Kruger, Janet Cardiff, Felix Gonzalez, and Gary Hill fan.

AND Warhol.

:beer:
Some women favs: Emily Jacir, Susan Rothenberg, Pat Steir, Miriam Shapiro, and Louise Bourgeois
cheers

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[girlie]

Yes: absolutely....
But I think Picasso was a major artist who was a good msrketer;
I think Warhol was a minor artist who was a major marketer....
And our "branding" culture has evolved along Warhol's prescribed path, of course....He wasn't stupid.

Picasso could draw (anatomy, for instance) like crazy, like LdV....
AW couldn't draw anatomy better than a blind crab....

Unfortortunately, this is this "progress" of our art culture....

Someday, maybe you and I could talk about the "Italian" architect "David Fisher ("Italian" name: ***???), who was claiming yesterday to being the "first" architect to build "moving" skyscrapers....in $$$ Dubai, of course: whoredom conquers all, temporarily...and permanently in the saddest cases.

Agreed about Picassos draftsmanship......though Warhols talents were more of the conceptual kind. He drew conceptually. For example.....In one of his videos, the hair cutting one. A person sat in a chair about to get their hair cut.....20 minutes or maybe 10 pass with the preparation of the act of cutting. Finally the scissors cut. The audience was side to applaud. And that was the point imho. He understood the viewer and being viewed. His video was not about the video or the imagery rather the viewer the audience. For that he was/is considered a master....look to the electric chair or car crash series.
Amazing!
Redefining of drawing from life and representing the figure....or what is considered figurative.

[Kevan]

to bike ride through MoMa.

OUT OF MY WAY!!!!

[fiamme red]

to bike ride through MoMa.

OUT OF MY WAY!!!!If you wreck your front wheel, you can borrow a spare. 36 spokes, so not appropriate for weight weenies.

http://www.moma.org/collection/browse_results.php?object_id=81631

http://www.moma.org/images/collection/FullSizes/43283005.jpg

[girlie]

to bike ride through MoMa.

OUT OF MY WAY!!!!

Cadance90 will be there pulling a Duchamp.

[M.Sommers]

Agreed about Picassos draftsmanship......though Warhols talents were more of the conceptual kind. He drew conceptually. For example.....In one of his videos, the hair cutting one. A person sat in a chair about to get their hair cut.....20 minutes or maybe 10 pass with the preparation of the act of cutting. Finally the scissors cut. The audience was side to applaud. And that was the point imho. He understood the viewer and being viewed. His video was not about the video or the imagery rather the viewer the audience. For that he was/is considered a master....look to the electric chair or car crash series.
Amazing!
Redefining of drawing from life and representing the figure....or what is considered figurative.

Morrissey > Warhol
Pompadour > Wigs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJdVzc1Jhfc

And all you artists ate too many Fruit Loops atmo, except Mrs. Fixed. //Off to put on flame retardant suit made by NASA. :D For the artists:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxZo5UODCCg

:beer:

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[paczki]

6 words, girlie: ISABELLA STEWART GARDNER MUSEUM; BOSTON. MA.; USA....


May I strongly suggest to anyone in the Boston area to go to the Spanish art in the age of Philip II exhibition at the MFA!

Hows that for thread drift!

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[girlie]

6 words, girlie: ISABELLA STEWART GARDNER MUSEUM; BOSTON. MA.; USA....

Been there done that a bunch of times.....but yes it is beautiful:)
I miss L.A. and NYC!
Liked the Opening of the new ICA in Boston.....Boston so needed it!
The MFA in Boston is going to be building a new wing for contemporary art.....it will be many years but maybe just maybe Boston is ready to join the rest of the art world.

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[paczki]

Been there done that a bunch of times.....but yes it is beautiful:)
I miss L.A. and NYC!
Liked the Opening of the new ICA in Boston.....Boston so needed it!
The MFA in Boston is going to be building a new wing for contemporary art.....it will be many years but maybe just maybe Boston is ready to join the rest of the art world.

The current exhibition at the MFA of Antonio Lopez Garcia is one of the finest exhibitions by a contemporary painter I've ever seen:

http://www.mfa.org/exhibitions/sub.asp?key=15&subkey=5339

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[girlie]

The current exhibition at the MFA of Antonio Lopez Garcia is one of the finest exhibitions by a contemporary painter I've ever seen:

http://www.mfa.org/exhibitions/sub.asp?key=15&subkey=5339


Painting = Boston
I'd enjoy the show......and like the work just not a painter.
Boston needs - imho - to open it's doors to more than just paint:)

[paczki]

Painting = Boston
I'd enjoy the show......and like the work just not a painter.
Boston needs - imho - to open it's doors to more than just paint:)

Well go to the Anish Kapoor exhibition at the ICA then! A little glitzy, but good. Or go to Inman Square tonight and see the avant-garde electronic light show. There's endless stuff here.

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[capybaras]

Teen Accurately Describes Robert Mapplethorpe Exhibit As 'Gay'
JANUARY 11, 2007 | ISSUE 43•02
DETROIT—Despite having viewed only a single Robert Mapplethorpe photograph of a pink orchid during a class trip to the Detroit Institute of Arts yesterday,
14-year-old Greg Callahan accurately characterized the deceased artist's work as "totally frigging gay." "Art is for homos, and this museum is for homos, and
this guy is obviously a homo," said Callahan, correctly identifying Mapplethorpe's sexual orientation without reading his biography. "I'll be in the stupid café."
Though he refused to observe any of their work, Callahan added that the rest of the artists featured in the "Perspectives On Perspective" exhibit—including David
Hockney, Andy Warhol, Pablo Picasso, and Hannah Gluckstein—were all gay as well, a claim which was 75 percent correct.

[girlie]

Teen Accurately Describes Robert Mapplethorpe Exhibit As 'Gay'
JANUARY 11, 2007 | ISSUE 43•02
DETROIT—Despite having viewed only a single Robert Mapplethorpe photograph of a pink orchid during a class trip to the Detroit Institute of Arts yesterday,
14-year-old Greg Callahan accurately characterized the deceased artist's work as "totally frigging gay." "Art is for homos, and this museum is for homos, and
this guy is obviously a homo," said Callahan, correctly identifying Mapplethorpe's sexual orientation without reading his biography. "I'll be in the stupid café."
Though he refused to observe any of their work, Callahan added that the rest of the artists featured in the "Perspectives On Perspective" exhibit—including David
Hockney, Andy Warhol, Pablo Picasso, and Hannah Gluckstein—were all gay as well, a claim which was 75 percent correct.


Ya 75% cause Picasso REALLY liked the ladies.

[capybaras]

He was only 5'3" but girls could not resist his stare

[girlie]

He was only 5'3" but girls could not resist his stare


I think it was not his stare.....there are men who deserve several women....if you earn it then we can respect....and earning it may have to do with respecting 'US.' Oh Picasso was Picasso and I have faith in the ladies to have been there for the right reasons - whatever they may have been:D
Benjamin Franklin had it as well - if I'm not mistaken.

[capybaras]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8vaOI-lovo

[girlie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8vaOI-lovo


Oh I'm the asshole:)

[capybaras]

you just need some schooling :banana:

p.s. hope you know this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDJShMk-r88

[Bruce K]

capy, I'm guessing she's had more schooling than most of us here. :rolleyes:

BK

[capybaras]

+ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuxGIX7YYcc :)

[girlie]

+ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuxGIX7YYcc :)

+3 and good night.

[rounder]

Going back to the atmo comparisons...i don't think he would compare himself to andy warhol, picasso or any of the others. The guy builds bikes and tries to make each one perfect. If he is highly critical of his own work because he has high standards and makes a mistake that is so small that he is the only one noticed, and the bike is otherwise great in every other way, then i can see why he believes that imperfection is perfection. I would much rather have one of his bikes than a picture of a heinz 57 can or some other trendy piece of art. Go atmo.

[taz-t]

.

[girlie]

Going back to the atmo comparisons...i don't think he would compare himself to andy warhol, picasso or any of the others. The guy builds bikes and tries to make each one perfect. If he is highly critical of his own work because he has high standards and makes a mistake that is so small that he is the only one noticed, and the bike is otherwise great in every other way, then i can see why he believes that imperfection is perfection. I would much rather have one of his bikes than a picture of a heinz 57 can or some other trendy piece of art. Go atmo.

Picasso once sad something along these lines......

Try to draw a circle...always being equi distant from the center. Everyone knows what a circle looks like. You don't have to think about it just do it. Always trying to be true to what is a circle.
Now if you draw a circle - it will have flaws. If one was to copy someone else's circle they would make the errors of the person they copy as well as their own errors.....and in the end it would not look anything like a circle.....and possible maybe unrecognizable as a circle at all.

That the style and persona is within the imperfection while trying to obtain perfection. All I am saying is this principle was coined well before e-richie....and that he (atmo) is artist enough to recognize it. Wonder if he realizes it?

ROUNDER........it is post modern society...most has been said and some say all has been done....I personally am not a dead end post modernist......but I will not scream originality where it is clearly not do. I will recognize 'smart enough to know' :)
I know RS frames are well made and an art of craftsmanship......that is a spade.

Best,
girlie

[flickwet]

Teen Accurately Describes Robert Mapplethorpe Exhibit As 'Gay'
JANUARY 11, 2007 | ISSUE 43•02
DETROIT—Despite having viewed only a single Robert Mapplethorpe photograph of a pink orchid during a class trip to the Detroit Institute of Arts yesterday,
14-year-old Greg Callahan accurately characterized the deceased artist's work as "totally frigging gay." "Art is for homos, and this museum is for homos, and
this guy is obviously a homo," said Callahan, correctly identifying Mapplethorpe's sexual orientation without reading his biography. "I'll be in the stupid café."
Though he refused to observe any of their work, Callahan added that the rest of the artists featured in the "Perspectives On Perspective" exhibit—including David
Hockney, Andy Warhol, Pablo Picasso, and Hannah Gluckstein—were all gay as well, a claim which was 75 percent correct.truly effin hilarious,thank-you

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[michael white]

In the 20th Century alone, one can compare Warhol to "the Donald", and Picasso to Braque; as well as to others, in both cases.



obviously if you're looking only at cubist still lifes you can compare Braque to Picasso and might prefer the former. Looking at the totality of the work, Picasso's painting drawing sculpture ceramics not to mention his work in just about every other art in the modernist era, and no you can't compare anyone, not even Pollock, to Picasso. Moving outside the past century, though, it becomes easier to do. Rembrandt or Velasquez, sure, and that would likely not be flattering to Picasso. The great Italians are in their own world. that was my point. Not trying to construct academic pecking order, just trying to honor what has been done.

as for Warhol, I remain confident y'all are underestimating him--last time I was in the London Tate and really looked at the Marilyns, etc, I was deeply moved. . . ymmv.

best,
mw

[andy mac]

i read the first page then skipped to the last.

wow - can't even begin to imagine what's in between. would certainly make an interesting study for someone.

:beer:

andy

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[michael white]

ok.

ps: reread Wilde, too.

best,

mw

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