Campy better, shimano better....provable?

[William]

Ok, scottcw's thread, and some responses about Campy vs. Shimano got me thinking. Other than personal preference, can anyone sight any quantifiable/provable reason for one being better than the other?

As I stated in the other thread, I have only** used Shimano groups (105, Ultegra, & Dura Ace) and I can't think of any major problems I've had with them over the years. I know people who use and love Campy. So other than personal preference, is there anything else that can be cited?

As far as Campy snobbery is concerned, my feeling is that it probably has more to do with having a link/name that evokes the image of classic European cycling heritage than actual performance. Just MHO. :)


William
(**Well, ok, I do have a set of wheels built on Campy Omega V's that have proved quite durable over the years)

[LowCel]

I have both Shimano and Campy and they both work perfect. The only reason I prefer campy is because all of the cables run under the bar tape. To me it just makes everything look a lot cleaner. It also gives me a little bit of a wider bar to keep my hands on.

Other than the cable routing I think the whole campy vs. shimano thing is crazy.

[Tom Robison]

who cares. :argue: I think Campy has an edge in that their parts are re-buildable. And as LowCel mentioned, the cable routing looks nicer (although this type of routing puts slightly more stress on the cables). But beyond that they both get the job done.

Tom

[Spectrum Bob]

I ride campy,, my wife rides shimano, but then I have a PC and my wife has a Mac
Some say tomato…….

The artest in me likes the look of campy, my wife prefers how the shimano hoods feel.
I maintain them both, I fiddle more with my campy stuff, but I like to fiddle.

I think this is one argument that will never be resolved or ever end. It is something fun to argue about when we get bored of what is going on here on the forum

Just my $.02

BugSplatBuddah Spectrum Bob

[zap]

I have both and prefer campy for reasons already posted. Additionally, I do not like the wider Shimano D/A Q either.

Ten years ago my favorite was Mavic Zap groupo. I still have it but it's 8 spd and current stuff does shift better.

I hope Campy will release their electronic groupo in the next year or two :banana:

[Big Dan]

Maybe I was the only person who used a Veloce headset... :crap: Yes it lasted a week...and those little springs that pop out of the 8 speed cassette....and yes the $99 dollar chain tool..sweeet... :D

I'll stick with Shimano..thanks

[kenyee]

And the poll doesn't take into account the mixes that can be done:

e.g., shimano brakes and campy levers lets you pop open the brakes further (if you use both brake releases) to make wheel changes easier...

[eddief]

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/Shiftmate.asp

[Mr. Butterworth]

but why oh why does Campy still use that godawful square taper BB design? :confused: :confused:
In fact, the DA 10 crank and BB setup is stiffer AND lighter than any campy combo.

[LowCel]

Thats why you go with an FSA carbon with Ti bb with campy. :D

[Spectrum Bob]

I like the way you think LowCel. That is definitely one of my planed upgrades for the future!

BugSplatBuddah Spectrum Bob

[dgauthier]

Would U.S. Postal have won the Tour running Campy? Of course they would. Parts don't matter one bit.

Not only do components not matter, but neither do frame materials, rim cross section, number of spokes, etc. Watch the races, and you'll see all sorts of bikes with all sorts of components racing side by side. At no time is it possible to point and say "the carbon fiber frames always win", or "the deep cross section rims always win", or "the Campy/Shimano components always win". The winner is always the fastest *rider*.

[Bill Bove]

but why oh why does Campy still use that godawful square taper BB design? :confused:
What's the big deal with Campy's square taper BB? In the 5 or 6 years that the Shimano Octilink has been around I have seen more stripped Shimano cranks from improper instalation than I did in 20 years of square tapers. Square tapers have worked for a long, long time. The new one piece DA and Ultegra 10 BB's do look nice and may very well be significantly better but does that make the square taper awful? How'ed we get along for all those years? :confused:

[scottcw]

My preference for Campy is purely based on ergonomics. I like Campy shifting and do not like my brake levers moving.

[Mr. Butterworth]

Progress...

Clearly square BBs are not aweful... hyperbole aside:

Yes, we got along just fine with square taper BB units for many years, but like so many of our most beloved bits of junk, they are antiquated.

The reason you have seen so many stripped out Octalinks is because of bonehead mechanics not taking the 3 seconds required to line up the spines correctly.

Furthermore, we are comparing top-of-the-line groupos here, where weight and stiffness matter a great deal. Certainly there is nothing wrong with the square taper design as it stands on its own. Then again, there is nothing wrong with cathode ray tubes, slide rules, etc.
There is nothing wrong with square taper, there are just better, newer alternatives. For my money I choose to use the better (and usually less expensive in the case of Campy vs Shimano) product.

[terry]

campy not only looks better-those new shimano cranks & levers are godawful ugly (IMHO) they are a more customer-friendly concern. i agree with bill bove re square taper-in 30 yrs of campy i've never had a single problem with square taper and i can't imagine anyone can tell the difference, obviously shimano's octalink system wasn't the be all & end all in crank design. i'll never buy shimano, not only because of looks but because of their indifference to the consumer, especially now with their price-fixing policies.

[Big Dan]

None of them really care about the customer..Campy doesn't care :no:
Again what were we supposed to do with the 8 speed wheels or 9 speed???...before they rushed to 10 speed??...talk about leaving the customer hanging :confused: ...

[Bill Bove]

I agree that Shimano did us a favor by not redesigning their rear hubs (almost(9sp cassettes won't fit on 10sp wheels) but I didn't have any major problem changing freehub bodies on my 8sp wheels to 9sp bodies that still work with 10sp cassettes.

The real problem with Campy is that most shops have a staff that only understands mountain bikes, many are even afraid of road bikes. Campy is trying to adress this problem with their "Pro Shop" program. A network of qualified dealers who sell AND service Campy components.

[RichMc]

I'm with ScottW. The thumb button shifters are great. I also like the fact that the brake levers don't move. There are fewer cables flying out in the breeze in front of you and my Campy rear hub is near quiet in comparison to some Shimano hubs I've heard. Have both Campy and Shimano on two bikes. Other than those small points I can't say that one works better than the other. I vote for Boston tapping the keg.

[saab2000]

The reasons that people have given here are all personal preference. There is no scientific, or even anectdotal, evidence that one setup is better than another setup.

Some like the lower Q factor of Campy. Some like the supposedly stiffer cranks/BB of Shimano. Is there ANY evidence that either will make someone better?

I have seen studies that show that aero is better than low weight. Someone actually has put in the effort to quantify this. The aero advantage is small, but at least it was demostrated.

The Campy/Shimano thing really is personal and there is, AFAIK, no way to "prove" that one is better than the other.

I ride Campagnolo stuff, but I am the first to admit that we would not have the cool campy stuff we have today if it were not for the pressure put on by Shimano. If it were not for Shimano, and to a lesser extent Suntour, we would not have Ergo, or 10-speed, or carbon cranks, or kicka$$ Record brakes.

The truth is that we would be riding an updated C-Record groupset. Come to think of it, that might not be a bad thing..... It was my favorite gruppo of all time!!! :D

If Shimano would think about hiding the shifter cable instead of having it flopping around out there in front I might consider it..... :rolleyes:

[William]

The pilot speaketh the truth. :)


William

[Dekonick]

Shimano advantage: Cost. Its cheap - and you can get parts at any shop.

Campy advantage: Rebuildable. Ergonomic. Clean. (cables hidden)


As far as cost goes; Campy would be alot less expensive if the almighty dollar would do better v.s. the new Euro.


They both work just fine.

My vote goes to Campy because the thumb shifter and non-moving brake lever make for a much safer (IMHO) ride. I dont feel half as comfortable descending at 50 on Shimano compared to Campy (mostly because the lever does not move - and I like that when I am concentrating on the road surface that is in my line of travel. Last thing I want is a sudden unexpected shift because I hit a rut or bump...)

Hrmmm - Can I change my vote to Campy and a bottle of Chimay? :beer:

[zap]

I might be mistaken, but hasn't lower q been proven to fix some biomech problems?

[OldDog]

I have had more than a few occasions to contact Campy USA. Each and every time my questions were handled in a professional manner, both verbal calls and emails. Try to even get a hold of Shimano consumer direct.

Dealing with Campy is like dealing with Serotta. Both do business through authorized dealers, but when you need an answer a dealer can't or won't get for you, their there to support you as a customer with prompt curtious service.

I think anyone here who has ridden long enough can attest to the fact that Shimano does not last. For my money I'd rather shell out 30% more upfront for a quality Campy group and ride it 3X as long as what you will get out of Shimano. I tried an Ultegra group in '96, it lasted about 6K, then a DA group in '98, swapped that out for a record group before the season was over. Will never go back.

My only beef these days with Campy is the use of plastic (carbon) down the line. They should'a quit with Record and left Chorus and Centar aluminum, though I know it's cost cutting thing disguised as technical wonderment.

Youse all have a nice weekend :beer:

[toaster]

When you can go to Campy's website and download product manuals and see all the small parts that make up a component and just how the Record pieces trickle down to Chorus, Centaur, and even Veloce I guess you may realize the company has thought out (one aspect of) customer service a bit better than Shimano.

With Shimano it's hard to get any information like that on your own.

[jeffg]

The reasons that people have given here are all personal preference. There is no scientific, or even anectdotal, evidence that one setup is better than another setup.

Some like the lower Q factor of Campy. Some like the supposedly stiffer cranks/BB of Shimano. Is there ANY evidence that either will make someone better?

I have seen studies that show that aero is better than low weight. Someone actually has put in the effort to quantify this. The aero advantage is small, but at least it was demostrated.

The Campy/Shimano thing really is personal and there is, AFAIK, no way to "prove" that one is better than the other.

I ride Campagnolo stuff, but I am the first to admit that we would not have the cool campy stuff we have today if it were not for the pressure put on by Shimano. If it were not for Shimano, and to a lesser extent Suntour, we would not have Ergo, or 10-speed, or carbon cranks, or kicka$$ Record brakes.

The truth is that we would be riding an updated C-Record groupset. Come to think of it, that might not be a bad thing..... It was my favorite gruppo of all time!!! :D

If Shimano would think about hiding the shifter cable instead of having it flopping around out there in front I might consider it..... :rolleyes:

I have both, but I run a low Q crank with Shimano 9 speed and it makes a huge difference for me personally in terms of comfort and efficiency. I think a Phil square taper BB is one of those perfect parts that are now rare in the cycling industry (perhaps any), but if the new integrated crank/BB floats your boat, I would get the new integrated PMP setup for 2005. If I am not mistaken it as as light as the FSA or Campy carbon in AL and the current PMP is already light, stiff, and smooth ...

[Sandy]

Shimano, Sandy, Supersonic, Speedy, Stellar, Sweet, Shifting,.....
are all S words, which means that they are Superior (another S word).

Campy is a C word, very early in the alphabet, well before letters became sophisticated (another S word).

Isn't it obvious???? Case closed!!!!

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSShimano

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSandy :)

[Jeff N.]

As I've stated before, I own bikes equipped with both, and I find it hard to believe that anyone can walk away from a head to head test/comparison of both groups and say that Campy Record is better..... and still keep a straight face. I feel that the new DA-10 is far superior. And like it or not, Lance has won 6 TdF's in a row with DURA ACE. Jeff N.

[ace007]

After riding both - Dura Ace for almost 8 years - I like the Campy components better. Reasons - No protruding cables from the shifters, you can pull the upshifter toward you and still shift, very precise shifting, and they are rebuildable. Of course I wouldn't be upset if someone said I had to use Shimano. I like the fact that Campy is a cycling equipment company and does not also make fishing reels. Of course everything in cycling is subjective. Just my 2 cents. :D

[Big Dan]

Rebuildable?? What you guys go to Branford Bikes and spend $200.00 bucks in parts to rebuild a $199.00 dollar shifter??? ... :crap:

[Tom]

You go to Branford Bikes and buy the 60 cent spring to rebuild the 200 dollar shifter.

Anyway, this question is pointless. The fact that I use Campagnolo is unequivocal proof that it is clearly the better product.

Now go, you, and find the tap.

[terry]

1. i've replaced the pulley/jockey wheels on record 10 rder-try and do that with shimano
2. i've replaced the 16t cog on a record cassette-friend had to pay $180 for a new DA 10 cassette when his 15T cog skipped.
3. this buddy crashed/broke his new XTR levers-couldn't buy just one lever (never mind the need parts) had to buy both levers-for $340, of course he refused, he gave up on shimano.

[vaxn8r]

I think anyone here who has ridden long enough can attest to the fact that Shimano does not last. For my money I'd rather shell out 30% more upfront for a quality Campy group and ride it 3X as long as what you will get out of Shimano. I tried an Ultegra group in '96, it lasted about 6K, then a DA group in '98, swapped that out for a record group before the season was over. Will never go back.


That doesn't ring true at all in my experience. My 1986 Shimano 6 then 7 speed is in perfect condish. Same for my 1992 DA 8 sp. Not one problem.

I have worn out both Record and DA BB's. I have worn out Campy brifters. Of course it was easy to repair but I didn't have a bike for about 10 days and I've never had to rebuild my Shimano shifters, other than to make my 6 sp a 7 sp...and that was a simple insert.

Other experiences may vary I'm sure.

IMO buy whatever you like or can afford. It's aggravating that Campy owners, and Shimano owners to a lesser extent, for some reason feel it's a religious type issue and their sworn duty to sway other riders. It's all good stuff...except for Campy from about 1987-1994 (?)

[Kevin]

Sandy,

We have already had this discussion. S is an inferior letter. As demonstrated before, the letter K kills the letter S. As far as the rest of you spelling Kampy with a C, it is a common mistake. If you research Kampy you will see that the K was mistakenly replaced with a C when the first Kampy arrived at Ellis Island. No doubt it was some person with an S name, perhaps Sandy, that made the mistake.

Anyways, I vote for Kampy for purely aesthetic reasons. It looks great. Shimano looks like the S word.

Kevin

[Kane]

Luckily for us bike parts are cheap considering the cost of design and forging Aluminum. Having said that the best thing about the c vs. s debate is the fervor of the debaters.

Pro Campy:
warmth of carbon fiber shifters on cold days, repair ability, multiple shifts in one push, upgrade ability, brakes were better (till DA 10), FACE THE FACTS: ITALIAN IS COOL!!

Pro Shimano: Leverage of the brake levers is simply better, Cranks are superior, they were the pioneers of brifters, hollow bottom bracket, the parallelagram (sp?) design that they stole from suntour is really brilliant and it took campy a decade or so to copy it, front derailleur is better than anyone other brand.

ANTI CAMPY: ???? (blasphemy), sqare taper bb is bogus but it is Phil Wood compatible, they took us down the path 10 speed with wimpy chains

ANTI SHIMANO: replacement costs, moving brake lever in two planes, they totally screwed themselves with the sti brifters on the mtn bikes. Sram was dead in the water and now everyone I know who is equiping a new frame is using sram thumb shifter/derailleur and somebody elses disc brakes

THE KEY DECIDING FACTOR: .......
It is all about how the shifters feel in your hands and whether or not you can shift the shimano junk without braking at the same time.

MY CHOICE:
Campy 9 speed triple drive train with a shimano ultegra triple crank and shimano ultegra front derailleur, shimano xtr cantilever brakes. Italian cool with a touch of weight weenie practical.

[gasman]

They both work well and at the top end both are really expensive. They feed our passion and let us have more fun using great gear. :banana: :banana:

The debate will never end, will it ?

[Tom Robison]

Rebuildable?? What you guys go to Branford Bikes and spend $200.00 bucks in parts to rebuild a $199.00 dollar shifter??? ... :crap:

I've got many miles on my Ergos and they are rebuildable for about $45.00 + shipping by Peter Chisholm at Vecchios in Boulder, CO. The prices at Brandford are way too high and their information is often suspect.

Tom

[dirtdigger88]

why do cyclist insist on this silly argument? :confused: :crap:


jason

[Climb01742]

every rider will "prove" to their own satisfaction which is better. and that is the only proof that will count. in my case, i have conclusive unshakeable airtight foolproof evidence that i like shimano better. am i right? in my head i am. :beer:

[Jeff N.]

every rider will "prove" to their own satisfaction which is better. and that is the only proof that will count. in my case, i have conclusive unshakeable airtight foolproof evidence that i like shimano better. am i right? in my head i am. :beer:Dura Ace 7800 specifically, right? Jeff N.

[FierteTi52]

Dura Ace 7800 specifically, right? Jeff N.

I think whole Campy VS Shimano thing is a issue with no real answer. We all have our personal idea of what is perfection is. For me, Shimano's new D/A 7800 is as good as it gets.
Jeff G.

[DfCas]

If you don't have the money for Campy.












Just kidding
Dan frankenbikes C.

[TmcDet]

when I bought my first road bike last yr about this time, I was dissappointed by the fact that I could not test ride a bike with Campy on it. Every bike that I was able to ride had Ultegra I was not impressed with the Ultregra so without ever riding a bike with Campy on it I went ahead and order Campy for my Serotta and I have never regretted it. I actually let a guy test ride my bike last week at the request of my local bike shop, he ordered Campy after he rode it.....guess my point here is that even more people might choose the Campy stuff if they could were able to test ride it before they bought.

[vaxn8r]

Not impressed with Ultegra? Your first road bike ever? You are truly hard to please. If you had ridden past iterations from either Shimano and Campy...you might never have gotten back on another road bike again.

How people find fault with this stuff is beyond me. Just ride the bike.

[William]

That's pretty much the reason that I started this thread. There is no prove-able, quantifiable, reliable proof that one is better than the other. It's all as Vax, our Swiss pilot, and a few others pointed out, subjective and based on personal preference.

Now, with that being said, I say we tap the keg and have a cold one and revel in the camaraderie of cycling. WHERE THE HECK IS BOSTON DRUNK!!! YOU BETTER NOT :no: BE HAVING YOUR OWN PRIVATE PRE-TAP PARTY OR IT'S GOING TO BE YOU AND ME IN THE OCTAGON MY MAN!!! :butt:

Just ride happy everyone. :)

William :D

[Jeff N.]

Wasn't it wonderful though? In the TdF? Seeing DA-7800 close-ups all the time with Campy in the distance? For 6 years in a row? Mmmmm...brought tears of joy to my eyes. Didn't notice Lance had any problems with braking/shifting. Guess he had that figured out. I think those exposed cables didn't hurt much either...less housing & cable=less weight.
Time for a nice long ride up the coast. Gosh I hate them dang Yankees. Hope the Bo-Sox can do 'em in finally! Wouldn't that be something? Wish my Chargers luck...it'll be a long season. Jeff N.

[Dekonick]

Ergonomics count IMHO - and Campy wins there. It is easier to shift with your thumb, you can shift multiple gears with one push, and the brake lever does not move. Do Campy and Shimano work well? Yes. Is Campy better designed for *my* riding style? Yes. For this reason I believe Campy is better. I honestly believe if you had two exact bikes, one with Campy, the other with Shimano (Record + D-Ace) and rode them both you would find they work equally well. I also would bet that you would (after you get used to it) prefer the non-moving brake lever, the ability to shift multiple cogs, and the overall feel.

Campy just feels better.

IMHO.

[Climb01742]

jeff n--yep, DA 10 rocks my little world. i have one frame sporting '04 chorus...yuck!!! but hey, that's just my measly personal POV. Go Sox...smite the yankees! and the charger throwback uni's are, IMO, single best pro uni of all time. especially when worn back in the day by lance allworth catching bombs thrown by john hadel (sp?).

[Big Dan]

I know people always complain about the cables going on the outside hanging, but I really don't like to use the double groove handlebars in order to keep the Campy cables out of the way... :crap:

[davids]

All good points, and the only one that I couldn't argue with is Climb's...

All of the Campy ergonomic advantages fall by the wayside for me for one simple reason: Those thumb shifters are right where I want to put my hands!!!! :no: :no: :no: So, I ride Shimano.

I'm looking forward to the new 10-speed Ultegra. Think there will be a compact Ultegra crank?

Oh yeah. The Sox win the Wild Card handily, and are soon to face the Yankees, exhausted from their struggles against the Twins. I am filled with dread. I am a Boston fan...

[vaxn8r]

I honestly believe if you had two exact bikes, one with Campy, the other with Shimano (Record + D-Ace) and rode them both you would find they work equally well. I also would bet that you would (after you get used to it) prefer the non-moving brake lever, the ability to shift multiple cogs, and the overall feel.

Campy just feels better.

IMHO.

That's exactly my point Dek, I have both. I love both. It makes no difference to me what you like but I disagree about your premise. They both are very, very good. Many would argue they prefer the smoother, more responsive shifting of DA compared to the more solid "clunck" shifting of Campy. Some like/need a non-moving brake lever. Many of us have never "brake-shifted" and never will. Some love thumb down shifting and some find that thumb paddle gets in the way when climbing out of the saddle on hoods. Some like to say they can shift all the way up the cassette in one fell swoop. In reality who does that? Isn't three sprockets enough for one, 2 milisecond up-shift? Is that really an issue in real life racing/riding? That's a feature I've never once used on my Record set-up and I ride in the hills every day.

It's all goooooood. I bet if the Campy crown rode Shimano for a month and vice-versa this wouldn't be a thread. Of course that depends on set up. A bad set up can ruin everything. 10 speed set- ups are finicky and if it's not dialed perfectly it just won't be very fun.

[Jeff N.]

Ergonomics count IMHO - and Campy wins there. It is easier to shift with your thumb, you can shift multiple gears with one push, and the brake lever does not move. Do Campy and Shimano work well? Yes. Is Campy better designed for *my* riding style? Yes. For this reason I believe Campy is better. I honestly believe if you had two exact bikes, one with Campy, the other with Shimano (Record + D-Ace) and rode them both you would find they work equally well. I also would bet that you would (after you get used to it) prefer the non-moving brake lever, the ability to shift multiple cogs, and the overall feel.

Campy just feels better.

IMHO.Ergonomics? Those stubby little Campy hoods? Jeez, my hands practically fall foreward and off with a little sweat! DA-10? Never happen. Because they are intelligently designed. As a side note...hey! How 'bout dem Chargers? Winning for now, anyway. Jeff N.

[bostondrunk]

The bottom line is....
saab is right, the 'ol C Record group was the best ever, period. I miss my Delta brakes! Super smooth BB, gorgeous crankset. Nice white rd pulleys!! Too bad ****mano showed up with STI to ruin everything... :argue:

[zap]

If you like the old C Record, buy a groupo, put it on a lugged steel bike and be happy :banana:

:beer:

[vaxn8r]

The bottom line is....
saab is right, the 'ol C Record group was the best ever, period. I miss my Delta brakes! Super smooth BB, gorgeous crankset. Nice white rd pulleys!! Too bad ****mano showed up with STI to ruin everything... :argue:
BD, I think you have selective recall. :)

[Ahneida Ride]

I love Campy. But the hoods are designed for a child !
And the Rubber grips slide all over. i could see one opting for
****man-no for that reason alone. There is no real estate
on the hoods. How does a monster like Uncle Willliam ride
Campy ? I dunno.

Campy Snob .....

Ahneida

[William]

I love Campy. But the hoods are designed for a child !
And the Rubber grips slide all over. i could see one opting for
****man-no for that reason alone. There is no real estate
on the hoods. How does a monster like Uncle Willliam ride
Campy ? I dunno.

Yes, yes. With my meat hooks, when I call a business on the phone, I have to wait for the recording to go through all the prompts until it gets to the; “if your fingers are too big to push the buttons, please mash your palm on the numbers….now”. :rolleyes:

I have to admit that I like the bulbous real-estate of the DA hoods. When hammering along, I like to rest my forearms on the tops of the bars and set my palms over the tops of the rounded hood/shifters. Never, ever, have I had a problem shifting/braking with the dual function levers. Cables showing? Never bothered me and has no effect on performance so I don't really care. They are down low and pretty much out of sight. So, functionally speaking, I like DA. I’ll give Campy the nod for aesthetically pleasing looks. Those pointy nubs look like they would annoy the crap out of my palms though. Just my opinion. :)

Oh man, BD has the Beer Bong, watch out…. :no:


William

[William]

Campy Snob .....

Ahneida

I love you anyway AR! ;)

:confused: :confused: :confused:

William :D

[saab2000]

If you like the old C Record, buy a groupo, put it on a lugged steel bike and be happy :banana:

:beer:

I have exactly that. I have a 1987 Grandis with a nearly complete C-Record gruppo. It is pretty stuff and is extremely durable.

The reason it was not really successful is that that was the time that Shimano really started coming out with some innovations. STI really worked. I think that their brakes were called SLR or something like that and they really worked well too.

The C-Record gruppo was, functionally, not much different than the previous Super Record stuff. Shimano, OTOH, came out with functional changes which were perceived by some as improvements. Campagnolo was forced to play catch up for the next 15 years and in my opinion has finally caught up with the latest brifters - precise and light action.

They had already caught up with other things like brakes long ago.

Again I will say that none of the changes or improvements really make me a "better" cyclist and cannot be demonstrated scientifically to be superior. I ride my old 1987 Grandis sometimes and am continually reminded that it is just as fast as my 2004 Strong with the 2004 Record gruppo.

I stand by what I said in my first post - It cannot be shown that one is "better" than the other. Everything people have said is based on personal opinion and personal preference.

[bostondrunk]

I would, but setting up a full C-record equipped steel bike is an expensive proposition for a poor drunk biker.

The only thing that wasn't great on the C-record group was working with the cable on the deltas. But they were damn purty!!! :beer:
What is it, about $350 US for a new pair of deltas of ebay....
There is a new C-Record crank on there now, but its a 170, so only for the short stubby people here....

[Dekonick]

I do have small 'mits' with long fingers. That may be why I prefer campy. I have used the ability to shift most of the casette, usually when cresting a hill and going from my 25 to a 15 or 17. Ill admit I have not gone from 25 to 12...

Its nice to know I could if I wanted to... :rolleyes:

[Bruce]

I'll have to post. There are quanifiable differences. I have ridden Shimano and Campy (but mostly Campy) and this is what I see.

1. Carbon is warmer on cold days and looks way cooler.

2. The Shimano brake release is a defective design because it diminishes breaking ablility if you forget to put it back. This could easily get you KILLED going down a steep hill after a flat change. Bad design. Period.

3. Hidden cables. Looks better, works better.

4. 10 sp on 4 lines, not 1. And 5 years of 10 sp experience, not one. The extra gear is worth it, it is wasn't, why are you running the new DA stuff?

5. Campy bearing are noticably smoother. A Shimano guy was telling me this just last month. Built a pair of wheels with Record hubs and could not stop talking about how smooth they were. I told him welcome to the club. And this is a DIEHARD Shimano guy. I kid you not.

6. Campy is rebuildable. I have replaced the $4 springs in several shifters and they shift like new. With Shimano you are reduced to flooding them with WD40 and praying the the Shimano gods.

7. Campy hubs are easier to adjust.

8. Multiple cog up and downshifts.

9. Shimano is a mixed shift on depress and shift on release. This is a really REALLY stupid design. Campy is 100% shift on depress. Not only is it faster, it is more intuitive. Try using a camera that is snap on release. Very hard to use and a poor ergonomic design. If you can't figure out what I am talking about, try shifting the small lever on Shimano, but just push it in and hold it. Does it shift? No, it waits till you release. Now shift with the big lever, it shifts when you push it, not release it.

10. Trimable front D. Campy has been able to shift a triple (I have even seen it shift a QUAD!, try that Shimano) since day one of Ergo. Not so for Shimano, and you can't really trim Shimano anyway.

11. Campy lasts longer. OK, some of you will say otherwise, but the prevailing experience on this board and others says Campy stuff lasts, Shimano wears out. In fact, Shimano conditions people to accept worn out components. Kind of like Microsoft conditioned people to accept crashing computers. Cycling parts don't have to have a short life.

12. The STI design does not separate braking and shifting well, and you can do one when you want to do the other.

There are probably others, but so much for now.

[dgauthier]

I'll have to post (. . .)

And the award for "Most Intelligent Post of All Time on Yet Another Campy vs. Shimano Thread" goes to . . .

[Serotta PETE]

Bruce wins and the :beer: is his to come and get, ;)

[soulspinner]

Extremely articulate and well thought out post. Reasons that I have used Campy and love it. I have not tried new Dura-10, but I always end up braking when I try to shift the 9 speed. Four years on my chorus and no issues whatsoever, just chain replacement and finally this year a cassette replacement. Hidden cables are just a benefit visually and to those of us who are uncoordinated when exhausted. I concede that the Shimano bb design is superior, but overall for this rider( who hasnt raced in 18 years) Campy works flawlessly when set up correctly and that heavier shift feeling lets me know the shift has been executed. Dont get me wrong, both systems are amazingly efficient, and neither should cost you a race, but Campy works better for this old guy...

[Tom Robison]

2. The Shimano brake release is a defective design because it diminishes breaking ablility if you forget to put it back. This could easily get you KILLED going down a steep hill after a flat change. Bad design. Period.

I have to agree with you on this one. I ride a Legend with Campy Record. I try to make sure I reset the quick release on the brakes if I've had the wheels removed. Sometimes my brain gets stalled. Just this morning I'm heading down my street towards the stop sign and grab the brake lever. Crapola! I forgot to reset my brake's quick release after my bike and I got a ride home from my wife the previous evening. They stopped just fine even in the open position. I think braking with the quick release open with Shimano is more problematic and not a good design.

Tom

[gdw]

The adjustable quick release on Shimano's brakes has been around for a long time and actually was one of the highlights of the older Campy Super/ Nuovo Record groups. Older riders are used to them and remember to close them before riding.. just like we remember to close our quick release skewers after fixing a flat. They also allow you to adjust the distance of the pad from the rim so that you can limp home after breaking a spoke. :banana:

[gasman]

When I decided in '95 to upgrade my old Peugot PX10E I had Campy chorus front and rear derailluers, they were down tube friction and I loved them.
When I tried out the chorus gruppo and the shimano gruppo I found I liked the Shimano better as it seemed smoother and more refined. I was told the Campy would smooth out in time but I went for the quick fix on my new steed.
If Shimano had not come out with STI we would still all be using campy friction down tube shifters. If campy had not come out wiht 10 speed then shimano would not have either. They are both good systems and work well. Some of the statements made by Peter don't jive with my experience.

1. I don't keep my fingers on my shifters while riding, carbon does look cool but my fingers get cold in the winter because of the wind chill and the air temp. My carbon bars don't keep myhands any warmer,or would carbon shifters.

2.I have never had a problem stopping with my my Shimano brakes even when they were left open, I just had to squeeze a little further.

3. Hidden cables are cool but they don't make the system work any better.

4.Campy does have 10 speed on on 4 lines, they were the first but Shimano will catch up.

5. I have never been able to tell much difference in bearing smoothness with well lubed and adjusted hubs.

6. Campy is rebuildable but with 4 bikes that have shimano, commuting daily, riding at least 200 days a year for the last 9 years I have had one Shimano brifter wear out- and it was the perfect excuse for me to use with my wife to upgrade to 9 speed at the time.

7.I've never had a problem adjusting my hubs. My K's are even easier and I never had to adjust my old Phil Wood hubs.

8.I can shift multiple cogs with a couple quick flicks it seems as easily as holding down the shifter.

9. Shimano does shift on release but I fail to see why that is a problem, it shifts easily and when I want to shift.

10. Shimano derailluers do trim a little but if the it is adjusted properly I have not had a problem with chain rub. Campy is probably better if you need to make adjustments mid ride.

11. Campy may last longer but my Shimano has worked great for 9 years.

12. I'm not sure why the compaint about shifting accidentally while braking or vice versa. I've never experienced it,ever.
I have experienced not getting out of my cleats and going over on my side. It seems that is much more serious and potentially embarrassing.

I know the debate will never end and I am glad that there are two producers of high quality compnents. The competition makes them both improve at a faster rate than they would without competition.
Let's just ride eh ?

[William]

Bruce wins and the :beer: is his to come and get, ;)

Not so fast there Pete. The gasman makes some good points that reflect my own experience with Shimano.
Besides, if we want to jump on our Shimano equipped bikes and head into the mountains for some good ole’ fishin, we’re still set with Shimano. Flawless gruppo and fishing equipment to boot. We are set! What do you get with Campy? A pizza cutter. :p You know the old saying; give the man a pizza cutter, and he has a pizza cutter. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life (something like that :rolleyes: ).

Anyway, to the point:

Shimano= Flawless performance, tough, built for big meat hooks, self-reliance, sustenance, flame broiled Salmon.

Campy=Solid performance, for little hands, a pizza cutter.

Get your pint glass :beer: ready gasman. I’ll start up the grill.

:rolleyes: ;) :)

William

[Serotta PETE]

Campy has a great wine bottle opener. No I do not have one, they want too many $$$s. (but maybe one of these days).


Shimano vs campy will be going on for many more years for there is not a single correct answer. We all have experiences and opinions. They both work well.


Personally, I have had the opportunity to try both and preference is for the campy. The campy finish seems to hold up better (at least on 9 speed cranks),, Yeah I know this does not effect perforomance.


I still give the vote to Bruce.................... :banana: :banana: :banana:



Beers at the next open house for Bruce :beer:

[William]

Campy has a great wine bottle opener.

Ok, I concede that point. ;)

William :D

[Jeff N.]

Hidden cables be damned. Exposed cables=less cable/housing=less weight/friction. Plus, I like the gear indicator. A quick glance lets me know what range I'm in.
I'll stick with DURA (L)A(N)CE-10. Simply the new standard. Jeff N.

[Big Dan]

Jeff....remember that Campy shifters are warmer... :crap:

[Serotta PETE]

Lets got get the beer and head for the grill!!!!

:beer: :beer: :beer:

[Ahneida Ride]

Excellent Posts.

Finally..... real perspective, not trash talk.

But I reiterate, Cramppy hoods are way too small. As a Cramppy snob
I'm stuck with them. Cramppy ... Make hoods in two sizes !!!!

[Serotta PETE]

Excellent Posts.

Finally..... real perspective, not trash talk.

But I reiterate, Cramppy hoods are way too small. As a Cramppy snob
I'm stuck with them. Cramppy ... Make hoods in two sizes !!!!

Wish they made M3s in two sizes... ;)

[gasman]

Lets got get the beer and head for the grill!!!!

:beer: :beer: :beer:

Well said and something we can all agree on !! :beer: