2009 Dura Ace for $2670?!

[nbrewste]

A la Competitive Cyclist: http://tiny.cc/339VH

$700 for a pair of shifters?
$300 for a cassette that's not even full Ti?

$2670 for a grouppo (without hubs!) seems a bit steep.

[rsl]

Ouch!

Everytime I see this kind of price increase I start worrying I'll never be able to afford another new bike!

[johnnymossville]

Well, looks like Dura-A$$ is out of contention for my next groupset. SRAM Rival is looking better every day, not to mention Campy Centaur.

[benb]

They are pricing it for the riders who believe that the more expensive something is, the better it is.

E.x. you could ship the best/lightest component group in the world, but if you priced it at $1000 a significant segment of the market would refuse to buy it as they would outright believe it had to be inferior since it cost less.

It was a Gamble for SRAM but pricing RED so high seems to have worked perfectly, many folks who automatically associate high price with quality jumped right away. If SRAM had undercut D/A and Record with RED these people would likely have stuck with Record.

Shimano is making the same bet.

[CNY rider]

They are pricing it for the riders who believe that the more expensive something is, the better it is.

E.x. you could ship the best/lightest component group in the world, but if you priced it at $1000 a significant segment of the market would refuse to buy it as they would outright believe it had to be inferior since it cost less.

It was a Gamble for SRAM but pricing RED so high seems to have worked perfectly, many folks who automatically associate high price with quality jumped right away. If SRAM had undercut D/A and Record with RED these people would likely have stuck with Record.

Shimano is making the same bet.


As much as I wish you were wrong, your analysis is spot on.
Sort of sickening, no?

[Bill Bove]

Look for price increases of 15-20% across for all 09 product, bikes, wheels...
It's a rough economy out there.

[Onno]

For the most part, cost and quality are in fact strongly correlated. Sure, bike companies know that there will always be a segment of their consumers who will buy the most expensive stuff, and probably this is where the greatest profits are made (and perhaps keeps these companies afloat for the rest of us). But it's not all smoke and mirrors, and as we've seen in virtually every area where we consume bikes and bike parts, there's lots of trickle down from the newest, most expensive, luxury stuff into the more affordable versions. As with most tech stuff, though, one has to realize that as price doubles, quality only increases by 10 or 20 percent. (There's probably a more precise formula!)

[benb]

What is the performance increase with this new dura-ace?

0.1%?

What is the percentage drop in weight?

What is the likely percentage loss in durability?

Is there any change in serviceability? Can you tear the shifters down and clean/lube/rebuild them?

Other thought that crosses my mind is what is the lowest level component group that can be used to hit the UCI weight limit? Can you do it with a 105 level bike now? Or Rival or Centaur? (Without gazillion dollar carbon wheels)

[nbrewste]

Save weight in the frameset, not the grouppo.

Rival and Centaur weigh about 100g more than Force which weighs about the same as Chorus which weighs about the same as the 7800 D/A.

Red and Record weigh less than all, but the performance difference between the respectively lower priced grouppos? Negligible.

Now the 09' Dura Ace aesthetics -- that's a whole other thread...

[Big Daddy]

I'm seeing RED (http://willyoumaketheleap.com/seered/)

[amg]

Ouch!

Everytime I see this kind of price increase I start worrying I'll never be able to afford another new bike!

Diddo! I'm thinking more refurbish rather than replace these days!

[soulspinner]

08 chorus fer 1200 looks like a steal 2 me.. :)

[CaliFly]

08 chorus fer 1200 looks like a steal 2 me.. :)


Amen

[goonster]

It was a Gamble for SRAM but pricing RED so high seems to have worked perfectly, many folks who automatically associate high price with quality jumped right away.

And when you say "jumped" you really mean "leaped," no? ;)

http://www.vsocan.org/imgup/cliff_jumping_cropped.jpg

[Sandy]

Look for price increases of 15-20% across for all 09 product, bikes, wheels...
It's a rough economy out there.

Because of the value of the dollar? How will you react to such increases? Simply pass it all on to the consumer? With the "rough economy out there" can you really do it? 15-20% more might really hurt sales of certain brand bikes etc. Car manufacturers certainly can't increase prices by those numbers. Can't sell what they have for some models, even with huge discounts. What does a bike retailer do? Are bike sales up because of gas prices? Overall, or just certain priced lines?


Sandy

[PaulE]

but the fact that the $ is in the toilet and may go down further vs. other currencies in the near term also has an impact on how they price the new group. They certainly don't want to introduce it at $2,200 and then increase it $100 every month or two. It will be interesting to see the price increases on any of the complete bikes sold by the big manufacturers that are full D/A 7800 equipped this year and full D/A 7900 equipped next year.

After it's out for a while, it will start to get discounted. And there will be interim improvements like the switch from the 7800 to the 7850 rear hub, Ultegra becoming Ultegra SL, etc. Those are certainly reasons not to be an early adopter.

And as always, over the next couple of years I expect these new features will trickle down to Ultegra SL, Ultegra if it's still offered as well, and ultimately 105.

[RedCoeurd'Acier]

Any Trickle downs to Ultegra SL and 105 will be reflected in these groups also going up in price too. It's and endless circle and we are caught in it. Just like the Gas prices now and the lazy politicians who are doing nothing to helps us, because this is and election year!

[I Want Sachs?]

Because of the value of the dollar? How will you react to such increases? Simply pass it all on to the consumer? With the "rough economy out there" can you really do it? 15-20% more might really hurt sales of certain brand bikes etc. Car manufacturers certainly can't increase prices by those numbers. Can't sell what they have for some models, even with huge discounts. What does a bike retailer do? Are bike sales up because of gas prices? Overall, or just certain priced lines?


Sandy
I think the free market will eventually dictate what the price is. Each distributor, dealer, shop, and rider will evaluate what these items are worth and products will thrive or die based on each individual's needs and demands. If the DA hubs are getting ridiculously expensive, perhaps someone should get the cheap American dollar chris Kings or Phil Wood hubs to go with their DA kit. Oops, I forgot that American companies can charge high prices, but Asian companies can't.

[rphetteplace]

Funny I was going to post this exact thread when I got home today at lunch.

$2700 for a group is a complete rip imho. So now D/A is $700 more than Red? That's ridiculous. Shimano didn't up the anty enough on 7900 to make it worthwhile. So basically the cost of 7900 is TRIPLE that of Ultegra-SL? Everytime Shimano comes out with a new group they bounce the price up big time. 7700 was like $1K, then 7800 was $1700, now 7900 is $2700. F Shimano. I'll stick with 9 speed, or buy Chorus.

[bostondrunk]

As someone else mentioned, I think it will drop in price a few months after it is out, just like Red seemed to do.

[paczki]

Does it come with a domestique?

[TAW]

As someone else mentioned, I think it will drop in price a few months after it is out, just like Red seemed to do.

Agreed. The marketing will be that this group is so much better that it's worth the high price, then it will drop to a more reasonable price. Maybe some of you guys can try it out for a few months, then sell on the classifieds for 1/2 price. :)

[stormyClouds]

I dislike price increases as much as the next guy, but I do see a positive side of this.
In a way, I don't mind seeing Shimano, Campy and SRAM having groups that are a little out of my price range. It reminds me of when I was a teenager in the eighties and Shimano introduced the XTR mountain group. There was no way that I was going to be able to afford that top-notch gear on my bike, but man did I lust after it. At first, you rarely saw it, but dreamed about it every night. I had STX parts which were way down the line (but good enough for me at the time).
As I got older I bought Dura Ace, Record and XTR parts for all of my bikes. At first it was really exciting. Then you realize that you really aren't a better rider with those parts and that honestly, you can't really feel the difference. I am sure that I would have been every bit as fast (or slow) with Ultegra, Chorus, XT or lower.
Now you see the top-level stuff everywhere and it is far from exotic. It is kind of fun to want parts like Clavicula cranks. Are they noticeably better than a Record or DA crank? Or more importantly, would they really be an improvement for the average Joe rider that most of us are?
In a way, I would rather ride Ultegra for awhile and lust for DA. It might bring a little excitement back into component shopping/lusting.
Maybe this is just a function of getting older and having more money, but I kind of miss the old days.

Note: Of course this is all based on the assumption that the new DA gear is better and lighter than the current DA and Ultegra.

[WadePatton]

Does it go to eleven?!

:D ;) :cool:

sorry I tried and tried, but couldn't help myself. :fight:

[handsomerob]

08 chorus fer 1200 looks like a steal 2 me.. :)

For the same price as one 7900 kit you can get TWO 7800 Dura Ace kits... http://www.probikekit.com/display.php?code=A0105

better yet... how about THREE Centaur kits... http://www.probikekit.com/display.php?code=L4051

I will probably get flamed for this but dropping $2600 for gruppo knowing the alternatives would be a bit embarassing... It wouldn't be quite as bad as wearing a diamond encrusted, blinged out Rolex, but still over the top nonetheless.

[legacysti888]

Welcome to the Bike Components for the Rich and Famous.

Too rich for my blood and I know I will not be any better with these on my bike.

What I really need is to just go out and ride and race more.

[Fixed]

another reason to buy a singolo
cheers :beer:

[PaulE]

I remember upgrading from the black plastic or nylon Simplex derailleurs on my first 10 speed, a Peugeot UO8, to metal ones made by Huret that worked better. On my second 10 speed, a Dawes Galaxy, I upgraded the Simplex plastic to Campagnolo Valentine or Valentino, a six speed cluster and a Sugino cotterless crank. Then I was devastated to learn that there were different Reynolds 531 tubes, straight gauge and double butted, and my Dawes was the lowliest of the grades. Back then there was always something higher to lust after. It will be fun to see this new stuff start to come out and lust after without getting it. It won't make me any better.

I dislike price increases as much as the next guy, but I do see a positive side of this.
In a way, I don't mind seeing Shimano, Campy and SRAM having groups that are a little out of my price range. It reminds me of when I was a teenager in the eighties and Shimano introduced the XTR mountain group. There was no way that I was going to be able to afford that top-notch gear on my bike, but man did I lust after it. At first, you rarely saw it, but dreamed about it every night. I had STX parts which were way down the line (but good enough for me at the time).
As I got older I bought Dura Ace, Record and XTR parts for all of my bikes. At first it was really exciting. Then you realize that you really aren't a better rider with those parts and that honestly, you can't really feel the difference. I am sure that I would have been every bit as fast (or slow) with Ultegra, Chorus, XT or lower.
Now you see the top-level stuff everywhere and it is far from exotic. It is kind of fun to want parts like Clavicula cranks. Are they noticeably better than a Record or DA crank? Or more importantly, would they really be an improvement for the average Joe rider that most of us are?
In a way, I would rather ride Ultegra for awhile and lust for DA. It might bring a little excitement back into component shopping/lusting.
Maybe this is just a function of getting older and having more money, but I kind of miss the old days.

Note: Of course this is all based on the assumption that the new DA gear is better and lighter than the current DA and Ultegra.

[I Want Sachs?]

I know I am going to get lynched for this, but here it goes.

I do like the fact that bicycle components are going up in price and is seen as something worthwhile. It means cycling has reached an importance in our societal value.

A Timex Ironman is 1/1000 of a Patek Philippe, and has functions five time over with all the (alarm) bells and whilstles :) . It even weight less for those who are gram conscious, and plus is probably more accurate to boot. However, we accept that Timex is much cheaper because somehow the general public accepts that aesthetic/status value of Patek has some inherent worth, and many are willing to pay for it. This means timepiece as expression of oneself has reached an importance in value within our culture.

Similarly, a finely made Dura Ace crankset charges more than functional equivalent Ultegra means our society does value importance of bike.

If there are anyone who never buy anything more expensive than the cheapest functional parts, then by all means, knock on Dura Ace. If you have ever paid for a burger costing more than McDonalds, which just fill in the basic function of feeding some calories, then don't gripe about Shimano wanting to capitalize on the status that cycling has achieved.

Flame on. :beer:

[paczki]

Similarly, a finely made Dura Ace crankset charges more than functional equivalent Ultegra means our society does value importance of bike.

The Ultegras come stamped off of the production line, but those master ex-samurai sword crafters who hand make the exquisite Dura-Ace cranks, they are priceless.

I thought the price just went up because they figure they can sell them to more heart surgeons for more money!

:beer: :beer: :beer: :banana: :)

[I Want Sachs?]

[QUOTE=paczki]

I thought the price just went up because they figure they can sell them to more heart surgeons for more money!

QUOTE]
Exactly. If these heart surgeons are supporting Shimano on the high end, so that Shimano can put out more cheap but very functional parts for more low cost riders, that's a good thing. The problems arises (such as this thread's concern) when cheap riders wants the top end, the lightest, the newest parts, which does not make them any better rider, at a low price. Just like those heart surgeon are not any better in their riding because their Dura Ace cost more.

I am glad that Vanilla can get a lot of money for his bikes. It means people appreciate his artform in a bicycle. Whether a Vanilla rides better than a Specialized, I don't know. Sasha, I can test ride for you for free if you like. :banana:

[RedCoeurd'Acier]

This all started because Competitive cyclist is trying to make bigtime dollars on this new groupset. As everyone has noticed about competivitive cyclist, they are very high on most items and seem to be very good about marketing their high end prices also. It was said that the retail prices maybe be about 10-15% higher on the new groupset parts, than what they will actually be on the retail end. I would say that any redesigned group with Shimano's newer features, will rise in price to keep up with shimano's urge to make higher and higher profits. Look at the oil companies now. Their 2nd quarter profits will be record profits again. Its coming down to "SuperCapitalism".

[michael white]

I would imagine, too, though this is just a wild cynical guess, that jacking up the initial prices on new parts help clean out the unsold current inventory.

[dannyg1]

DA7900 =$2700
Super Record 11=$3600

Complete bike=$8000?

[fiamme red]

DA7900 =$2700
Super Record 11=$3600

Complete bike=$8000?A Meivici SE frame and fork alone are over $8,000. Get some Lightweight wheels, and you're on your way to a $20,000 bike.

[Ahneida Ride]

A fed reserve non-note is not redeemable in anything, least of all, dollars.

[Jeff N.]

but the fact that the $ is in the toilet and may go down further vs. other currencies in the near term also has an impact on how they price the new group. They certainly don't want to introduce it at $2,200 and then increase it $100 every month or two. It will be interesting to see the price increases on any of the complete bikes sold by the big manufacturers that are full D/A 7800 equipped this year and full D/A 7900 equipped next year.

After it's out for a while, it will start to get discounted. And there will be interim improvements like the switch from the 7800 to the 7850 rear hub, Ultegra becoming Ultegra SL, etc. Those are certainly reasons not to be an early adopter.

And as always, over the next couple of years I expect these new features will trickle down to Ultegra SL, Ultegra if it's still offered as well, and ultimately 105.And by the time it reaches 105, it'll be time for Dura Ace 8000! Jeff N.

[39cross]

<snippet>...Then you realize that you really aren't a better rider with those parts and that honestly, you can't really feel the difference. Heresy, Sir, of course you need them! Otherwise how will our economy function?

[bostondrunk]

I will probably get flamed for this but dropping $2600 for gruppo knowing the alternatives would be a bit embarassing... It wouldn't be quite as bad as wearing a diamond encrusted, blinged out Rolex, but still over the top nonetheless.


Well, for people who can afford a Mevici frameset, $2600 for a groupo is probably no big deal.

[Acotts]

I think some of the struggling fame builders out there on the wrong side of the bubble should spend all their time crafting boutique custom components.

I mean, why stop at custom frame? Custom shoes cobbled to custom pedals attached to one-peice titanuim cranks and chainrings. Tungsen, tinanium and exotic alloys on a 12 speed casset.

Fine leather and mahogany hoods. Titanium, Cf and mahogany derailures.

Brakes that your frame wears like earings.

Bike grease made from baby whale Spermaceti.

A fast bike should look like the interior of a Maybach.

I think there would be a market for this.

Dream It
See it
Build It!

What was the name of the American bike builder fromt he 40's who not only built his own bikes, but fabricated his own components?

[rspecker]

I don't know how to justify a new bike, even if I can theoretically afford it. $8,000-$10,000 for a new bike. Ouch.

[frenk]

Some years ago Dura Ace and Record were exotic stuff that you didn't see everyday.
Now I see them on every other bike. Same for Lightweights, Bora, etc.
People see those stuff on pro bikes in TV and next day they buy them (me included -ok maybe not LWs or Boras).

Magazines helped companies a lot in making normal riders believe that they need top end stuff to ride well, and this is the result. Big companies can put the price tag they want, people will buy anyway.

I speak for the Italian/Euro stuff (don't know if in the US it's the same): I believe magazines (the way they are now) are one of the worst thing in the sport (from the riders' perspective). They transformed the sport in a business where riders are cows to milk.

[johnnymossville]

A peloton full of Dura-Ace, Red, Campy Record. I think it's great people have such disposable income to spend on such things and still find a way to complain of $4/gal. gas prices.

It makes it that much sweeter when I ride by them on my 105 equipped $600 beater. :p

[PaulE]

And by the time it reaches 105, it'll be time for Dura Ace 8000! Jeff N.

Just think of the blowout pricing they'll have on the 7900 old-school stuff then! Stay away from the bleeding edge, I tell ya'! :)

[Vancouverdave]

Bikes that are too expensive for some of us can be good for all of us.
The more that very wealthy people--the kind of people who buy and sell elections and politicians, newspapers and television stations--ride bikes, the more they will lean on their bought and paid for legislators to pass cyclist-favoring laws. I'm all for that. I'll stick to that mechanic's favorite for my own bikes--the "customer castoff" group.

[KJMUNC]

There is almost always enough room on the curve to increase pricing for disposable-income goods without a dramatic shift in demand. Personally I love seeing pricing like this as it means I might finally be able to buy a Record 10 gruppo for a decent price when all those with deep pockets ditch perfectly good stuff for the latest-and-greatest.

Good on them for having the resources to buy the high end stuff.....whether or not people like seeing weekend warriors riding continental pro level gear, they are a major, and important force within the cycling marketplace.

I'd rather buy a used gruppo from a guy who rides his $10k bike twice a month than a local Cat II who beats his gear to hell every weekend from Feb-Nov.

[jimcav]

A Timex Ironman is 1/1000 of a Patek Philippe,
Flame on. :beer:

you pick one of the best hand made watches in the world, compared to a nothing special quartz machine made watch. either pick an entry level mechanical watch, or a different comparison. like is a VXRS worth over 10 times as much as an asian robot carbon frame? it is not 10 times lighter. it may not even look 10 times better. i won't go 10 times faster. but i will feel better on the vxrs and i will ride more. i think part of putting red, DA, or record on a bike is that you love your bike, love riding, and want to use the best you can--it becomes an expression of the passion for cycling. sure maybe it just means you've got the cash, but even so, fit/finish/aesthetics/price all come into play with everything you buy.

jim

[texbike]

Seems a bit crazy to me.

I love the sport but can't see spending that much money on a component group.

Especially when the 12 year old Dura Ace 7400 group on my main rider is plugging along just fine.

Texbike

[tomwd3]

As always, it's what the market will bear.
Personally, I dont think these initial prices will hold.
Early adopters will always pay a premium. Call it the "cost of specialness"
I ride the DA7800 and it's amazing. I have yet to find myself in any situation where I thought..."if only I had a new grouppo. I'd be going faster"
I don't care for the 2-tone 7900.
For me it's EITHER black OR silver.
The super-record looks awfully sweet. Super Sexy. Hmmm...those lever hoods look alot more like DA7800 than the 2008 record. I've ridden a few Record equipped bikes, and I always worried about my hand bouncing over that little nub. Like when I'm spacing out or looking for killer squirrels. Plus, I found the plastic on the hoods to be overly hard.
I'm very sensitive. :)
Either way, I'm not paying over 2K for any gruppo.

[ricolicious]

Who buys an entire groupset anyway when getting one of the top Shimano/Campy/Sram components? I personally like only the levers and derailleurs and then get something better for the other components. :)

[Spud]

I'm surprised at the lack of support for the new DA. I think it's a perfect testament to Shimano when you here of people still riding 5 year old groups that are still going strong, I don't see that happening with Sram Red in 5 years. A company like Shimano has to come out swinging! There are plenty of people that will pay the premium for it and why should Shimano take the moral high ground and keep there prices low-just because DA is 2k+ doesn't mean you have to buy it. DA comes with a 3 year warranty, if you wear it out-congratulations-you get an upgrade and you rode the heck out of your bike and probably loved it!

[sg8357]

A couple ways of looking at the price.

DA is the racing group, meaning your sponsor pays for it.


The new DA finally costs more than the old French junk beloved of
Japanese collectors, now I can buy Simplex Juy parts for less than
what the racers pay, I guess that is progress.