Newbie Advice (repost from Bike Fit thread)

[njcampbell]

(reposted on advice that I would get more responses in the General Discussion thread)

Go easy on this newbie with maybe a not-so-agreeable post….

New to the sport, been riding about a year…enjoyed some metric centuries, ride about 50-70 miles/week and like that I’m getting fit(ter) in the process. Currently riding a hand-me-down 56 cm (best guess) 2000 (I think) C’dale CAAD 3. All aluminum frame, carbon fork, stock groupset (Coda), triple chainring (52/39/30), 9 speed 12-25 cassette, Shimano RS20 wheels (3 months old, was the first upgrade). I’m a hair under 6’2” and 230 lbs.

As I’m getting into the sport, I’m interested in upgrading my stallion and here is where I need advice. I’ve been told that I’m too big for my C’dale, so first step is that I’m going to get a fitting done to dial in the appropriate frame size. Second step is deciding on the frame material. I “think” I want a carbon frame as I’ve read that it’s lighter, stiffer and more forgiving of road vibrations.

Another consideration is that (and you’ll have to forgive me for this) I want it to look cool. If I’m being honest, I’ve got to be motivated to ride and I’m just drawn to some of the sleeker looking bikes (i.e. Orbea Onix, Specialized Roubaix, Felt, Cannondale Six 13). Giant came up on my radar and all the reviews indicate that they make a good bike, readily available and addresses my requirements, but seeing it in person just doesn’t get me fired up to ride it. I’m leaning towards something a little more exotic. Again, just being honest.

So here’s what I need help with:
Will I notice a big difference going from an aluminum frame to a carbon frame?
Will it help with the numbness in my hands?
Will it help me climb more efficiently?
How important is geometry to performance between brands? Said another way, could I get away with a less expensive aluminum frame but improve my comfort and performance considerably just because the technology is better than my C’dale?
What should I do about not being able to demo different frames? (Finding lots of obstacles regarding demo rides.)
Based on my preferences and budget (~$2k), are there other brands out there that I should be considering?
Will I be able to get away with a compact set of chainrings if I regularly use the granny gear on my triple on big hills?
Anything else that I should be considering in this search?

Thanks in advance for any and all advice!

[Dave]

You may not notice a big difference with the change to carbon, partially because larger, heavy riders suffer less from frame stiffness. I once owned a CAAD3 and I'm 5'-6" tall and 135 lbs or less. Mine was stiff, mainly in the back, but not that much rougher than a Tommasini SLX that I owned at the time. I've also owned more modern sloping TT aluminum frames (Fondiriest MDC) and not found the ride objectionable, compared to the Colango C-40 (carbon) frame I also owned.

Hand numbness is most often a fitting problem or lack of midsection strength. If your saddle is too far forward or the drop between the saddle and bars too great, you'll have too much weight on your hands. A weak midsection can cause the same problem, as can pinched nerves in upper spine.

A change in frame will not help your climbing. Your weight is the problem. Big guys never climb all that well. It's mostly about power to weight ratio. Pro riders of your height might weigh 165.

About gearing. If you use the 30/25 very often, a compact crank will NOT do the job. The lowest ratio with a compact having any decent top end gearing is a 34/27 (Shimano only). That's in between your 30/23 and 30/25. If you can get by with the 30/23, then a compact might be tolerable.

A good fitting is always advisable, but test rides often reveal little, because the bike is rarely setup to fit properly and the ride is too short. I haven't test ridden a frame since 1992. I know the dimensions I need for the bike to fit and choose to buy a frame and ride it at least 200 miles before calling it a lemon (did that with a Cervelo R3 even though it fit fine).

Your big limiter is the 2K budget. A lot of frames cost more than that. You're going to be limited to aluminum, steel and lower end carbon.

Here's a carbon framed bike in your price range, with a compact and 12-27 cassette option, but no triple.
http://www.coloradocyclist.com/product/kit/DXXAASU2

[Mud]

but Bianchi has no weight limit on the frames and carbon can be had in the low $2000s. Dave's advise about gearing is spot on but many bikes in your price range come stock with a 50/34. I don't know where you live so I can make no guess as to what you might need in gears. I will tell you that a 56cm sounds really small for you. Whatever you decide, a test ride and fitting are at the top of the list. Good luck.

[mosca]

Bear in mind that fitting involves much more than just choosing a frame size, as there are a lot of variables. I recommend investing in a comprehensive fit session - maybe contact Serotta to find a certified fitter in your area. This will make more difference than any of the other factors you mention. How you need to sit on the bike could be a factor in choosing the right one, as sizing varies between brands and models.

It is a generalization that carbon frames are "lighter, stiffer and more forgiving of road vibrations", but don't assume this will always be the case. Design trumps material.

Have fun!

[Ken Robb]

we see some good deals here on used bikes and I would prefer that route over any new $2000 bike I can think of. The Garage here has some super deals on Fierte frames for $795 +/- so you could come close to $2000 for a complete bike, especial;ly if you picked up some near-new used components for the build.

I'm 6'1 and 200 lbs and I ride 60-61cm bikes There is no way I could be even barely comfy on anything smaller than 58 cm center-center. I sold my 58cm Serrota because I could only ride it for 20 miles or so before my neck/hands were killing me.

[WadePatton]

Like the collective is saying. Fit is the thing. And no one can fit you via text. Frame size is one thing, where you wind up between the wheels is another. While in-person, professional fitment with a genuine experienced professional fitter is the best route, there are alternatives. Experienced local riders can be helpful, but don't hang on every suggestion. Some folks post up photos here for suggestions--but you're going to need something bigger than the 'dale for that. Framebuilders fit riders as part of their business. Don't know where you are, but a Serotta fit session is $200 in the Nashville market. Probably money well spent.

If you use the triple, by gosh run a triple. I run singlespeed or fixed most of the time, but when I whip out a geared bike--it's got a triple.

You could buy entry-level used stuff and try to work out your best position before plunking down the bucks for the "looks cool" bike. Nah, fit session sounds more efficient. ;)

Oh and don't put a lot of credence in "reviews" in magazines, they tend to be very easy on the subject.

Don't get hung up on materials.

Post up your location and you might find out you're in a hotbed of forum folks--or not. :D

[Lazy Bill]

my thought on this point - "improve my comfort and performance considerably just because the technology..."
Comfort and performance will increase mainly from a bike that fits, not the material.
I had a Serotta fitting that worked out great and helped me get my bike set up right while I shopped for an upgrade (though I don't think your 56 can be "tweaked" for a 6'2" rider). Find a good fitter and be honest w/ him about what you really want to do w/ the bike.

[Peter P.]

Will I notice a big difference going from an aluminum frame to a carbon frame?
Big difference in what?- weight (no); stiffness (maybe, but stiffness isn't everything); feel (not a big difference, but carbon, done well, mutes the buzz asphalt can impart to a frame, as well as minimize some shocks. Done poorly and it feels dead. Some people prefer aluminum, some prefer carbon...). Carbon is not a magic material, just different.

Will it help with the numbness in my hands?
Carbon is not a cure-all. Proper set up on the bike, which may remove some bodyweight on the hands (perhaps due to a scrunched up position on your too small frame), and regularly varying hand positions and removal of any death grip, will do more than a new frame material.

Will it help me climb more efficiently?
You're 235lbs., you could drop 5lbs. off the bike and it won't turn you into a climber. You've got to lose weight if there's any to lose. Otherwise, accept the fact you'll probably be a runaway freight train on the flats but hills will haunt you. You need to learn technique, and you must train.

How important is geometry to performance between brands? Said another way, could I get away with a less expensive aluminum frame but improve my comfort and performance considerably just because the technology is better than my C’dale?
Yes; you could get away with a less expensive frame AS LONG AS IT FITS. Even changes in technology aren't that important. For instance, a CAAD 8 isn't going to be 5x the bike your CAAD 3 is. Geometry is EVERYTHING. Or, at least the "fit" aspect of the numbers is everything. The seat tube has to be long enough so that you can raise the seat to the proper position, the top tube/stem combo has to be not too far/not too close and the head tube should be tall enough so you aren't looking through your eyebrows when you go down the road. The rest has to do with how the bike steers and the differences in handling among brands is subtle enough that you shouldn't worry about it until you've acquired a taste for what you like. Definitely study those numbers so you can understand how they translate into what you feel. Manufacturers don't go crazy weird with geometries because they want to sell lots of bikes, so you're safe with virtually any major brand, including those you're currently looking at. I think you're too new to the sport to worry about geometry but now's the time to learn and understand it. You've already learned your 56cm frame is too small, and frame size is part of geometry so that's a good thing. See if you can find/measure the other specs of your bike and WRITE THEM DOWN. You need a baseline so you can compare specs to understand how changes affect fit and handling, and that's how you do it-by knowing what you have and comparing it to what you're interested in/test riding.

What should I do about not being able to demo different frames? (Finding lots of obstacles regarding demo rides.)
Personally, I don't need demos. I can understand and respect those that would prefer them. In the absence of demos, you'll have to search the 'net for reviews of bikes you're interested in (a well written review will make you feel as if you've already ridden the bike), or ask the bike shop if you can contact any of their customers who share the size you're interested in; perhaps they can let you test ride their bike-please compensate them for their kindness. Otherwise, trust that in the end, a bike is a bike and material is far down the totem pole of importance. It's FIT that's important.

Based on my preferences and budget (~$2k), are there other brands out there that I should be considering?
Not really. Go with the brands that offer what you seek, and if looks are important to you, then that's cool too-you've got to be happy or you won't ride and if "sleek" puts you in love then do it, but ONLY after IT FITS.

Will I be able to get away with a compact set of chainrings if I regularly use the granny gear on my triple on big hills?
Yes; you don't say what size cassette you currently run, but if necessary, you can always retrofit a compact equipped bike with a large cassette on the back and a matching capacity rear derailleur. If you're tentative about compact, stick with the triple for now. Some bike shops can swap parts on a compact equipped bike for a triple setup in order to make the sale, but expect to pay for the change. Don't be afraid to ask, if you're otherwise interested in a particular bike.

Anything else that I should be considering in this search?
Yes; BEFORE you go for that fit, purchase Andy Pruitt's book,
http://velogear.com/images/vp_apmg.gif
Read it; measure yourself, and use the bike set up chapters to see what fits and what doesn't. It will give you a great idea where you are and where your fit needs to go. ALWAYS use an assistant for measuring and fit.

For an on-line tool to play with that will give you closer idea what dimensions a proper fitting bike for you might be, try this:
http://zinncycles.com/fitsystems/default_ie.aspx
You could also buy Lennard Zinn's book on road bike maintenance, which contains all the same information in the back chapters. Note that if you peruse his web site that he specializes if frames for tall riders, so if you really get deep into cycling he's a trusted source for fitting tall cyclists like yourself.

For a ballpark guess for you, I'll bet you fit a 58-60cm frame versus the 56cm which I could easily say without seeing you, is too small. Let us know what your fitting results in. I'm also not fond of big guys like you riding aluminum because I've heard too many stories where aluminum frames don't last under big guys. Don't let that scare you if you find an aluminum frame you like; just file it in the back of your head to compare to your personal experience.

[Ripple]

I recently upgraded from a Cannondale CAAD3 to a Legend SE.

If I learned anything through my experience, it is this:

1. Listen to all the advice and opinions, but test ride different bikes / materials and make a decision on what feels best for you AND what makes YOU HAPPY.
2. Find a good local bike shop who can help to ensure the proper fit.

Good Luck!

Ripple

PS - the CAAD3 is such a stiff bumpy ride ... You will likely find substantial improvement in a variety of options

[Mud]

We get any number of customers who are newbies or looking to trade up. We try to tell them the truth but many don't want to hear it. So they do what they want and most live unhappily ever after with what they have bought. This is not because they did not buy it from us but they did not listen to what we said. If you state where you live I am quite sure there will be a fitter in your area that has been used by people on the forum.

[njcampbell]

Thanks for all the stellar advice!

I'm hearing/learning that material is not as important as fit and that my cycling won't magically improve based on the type of bike I ride. This is what I needed to know.

Also, I've been to more of the local bike shops and found one that is willing to work with me. The shop that was originally recommended to me wouldn't let me test ride any of their bikes (save for around the parking lot) and wanted to sell me whatever was on the floor. I only went there b/c it was highly recommended. This other shop will cut me a deal on the price, will swap out a double crankset for a triple if I want it and will let me test ride any of their bikes around their neighborhood. (I never expected to be able to take the bike home for the weekend, but I at least wanted to take it around the block a few times, which the other store didn't and this one will.) So demo/test ride problem is solved.

For those of you with questions about my location, I'm in the San Fernando Valley in Southern California. This is where I ride most of the time, but I also get out to the Thousand Oaks and Newbury Park areas. Good riding in these areas that are near the Santa Monica Mountains...big bike lanes, long hills to grind and a healthy bike community. Talking to some of the locals, I found a guy who will do a bike fit on a machine for $50. That's the starting point, to be followed by several test rides on different bikes at Westlake Cyclery. They've got a 2008 Trek Madone 4.5 that is in my price range and calling my name.

I have to say that posting here was a worthwhile exercise and thanks again for all the input!

[TAW]

Everybody gave good advice, and welcome to the forum. This is (mostly) a great place to be and get good, sound advice.

Someone once said, "Find a bike that fits and ride it until you find out why you don't like it, then get something you like."

Most of us are in the "search" for the perfect bike. Course, then we sell it for something we think will be better and wish we had it back. :D