flat cornering skills

[flickwet]

Late apex or slow in fast out is what was taught at Skip Barber racing school. Bikes are different, what kind of line is faster? with all that entails. Smooth arcs with mid apex, what about getting up and hammering through a turn in a crit. I guess what I'm saying does a constant radius "carve" conserves the most momentum?

[WadePatton]

I think the automobile (and motorcycle) approach to cornering isn't exactly applicable to cycling. The big difference being that the full tractional limit of power is always just a twitch of the right foot (grip) away when using mechanical propulsion.

Pushing the limits of traction after the apex just isn't part of the bicycle equation atmo. But I've not studied it that deeply. :bike:

AS to your question, if I were bent on tenths of seconds, I'd simply have someone time me taking different lines through the same or a series of turns. What works for me might not work for all.

FWIW--while dirt is different, I do like catching everything just right on a tight turn and lifting the front under power coming out. Feels pretty sweet and changes the line!

[brians647]

I think the automobile (and motorcycle) approach to cornering isn't exactly applicable to cycling. The big difference being that the full tractional limit of power is always just a twitch of the right foot (grip) away when using mechanical propulsion.

Pushing the limits of traction after the apex just isn't part of the bicycle equation atmo. But I've not studied it that deeply. :bike:

AS to your question, if I were bent on tenths of seconds, I'd simply have someone time me taking different lines through the same or a series of turns. What works for me might not work for all.

FWIW--while dirt is different, I do like catching everything just right on a tight turn and lifting the front under power coming out. Feels pretty sweet and changes the line!

What is this, motocross? lol...

Bikes are different. You're primary concern should be keeping the bike as upright as possible so you can pedal, and/or taking the gentlest arc so that you can carry the most speed possible.

You really don't want to be going outside, inside, outside in a crit, or you'll leave a wake of crashed bikes in your wake (assuming you're not strung out single-file).

[WadePatton]

What is this, motocross? lol...

.
Mebbe I should esplain. It's a function of one-speeding, big gear at low speed makes that maneuver possible. ;)

[CMY]

Late apex or slow in fast out is what was taught at Skip Barber racing school. Bikes are different, what kind of line is faster?
Depends. It's not about power so much as it is about momentum (like a 427 Cobra vs. a prepped NASA-spec Miata). Small, two-seater, front-engine, RWD cars with vastly different driving styles needed.

FWIW I still apex a turn to the bathroom. Hard habit to break. :banana:

[Ti Designs]

Late apex or slow in fast out is what was taught at Skip Barber racing school. Bikes are different, what kind of line is faster? with all that entails. Smooth arcs with mid apex, what about getting up and hammering through a turn in a crit. I guess what I'm saying does a constant radius "carve" conserves the most momentum?

See, that's the problem with the Skip Barber school. They teach you the fast line in one car (maybe two if you're doing the street school) and that's what you know. In autocross school we learned the fast line in an 87 Civic - and almost straight line from gate to gate with very little throttle lift, then we got to try the same thing in a car with a bit more power (a Europa with a 351). Then, after a short break while we put the cones back, we talked about conserving time, which is pretty much what you're asking about.

There are two factors in turns, available power and momentum. Within momentum you need to look at what came before it and what came after it. First, think of the bike as the most underpowered race car in the world - OK, maybe the second if you've ever raced a 2CV. Power itself isn't going to push you out of a turn, but the lack of power could mean that it's either better to conserve momentum (neutral corner) or get back on the pedal stroke as soon as possible (late apex)

From here you need to start looking at corners as individual and seperate events that have an entry, the turn itself and the exit. The first question is what do you have for momentum going in? what do you want or need for momentum coming out? Let's say it's one of those crits that goes around a tight 120 degree turn (with manhole covers) and then goes up the steepest hill in town. You're not taking any momentum thru that turn form entry to exit, so your best plan of attack is to get out of the turn early and get on the pedals hard. In that case a late apex where you're closing down the inside line gets you upright and ready to stomp on the pedals soonest. If it's a downhill corner it becomes a question of how much speed you can take into it. If you're not using the brakes at all, a neutral corner is as much as you're going to get out of that turn. If you're getting into the brakes, a late apex is probably best. The early apex is reserved for going from a fast section to a much slower, very technical section.

As for riding (racing) with groups, the limits of your line are dictated by the people around you. That said, a better line in a corner puts you in the controlling position. One of the advantages to the late apex turn is the straight braking zone coming into the turn, which gets you there sooner, but at a lower speed as the steering effort is cranked in. In driving the rear car can punt the front car off the track, in cycling the rear rider will probably crash if they try the same move.

[RPS]

(a Europa with a 351).A miniature Pantera. I'd love to see that. :cool:

[batman1425]

FWIW I did a crit training series a few years ago and every week before the "B" race a local Cat1 would give us pointers on the corners and lead us through lines to maximize speed. The thing he emphasized most was the use as much road as you can for the turn. Start wide, finish wide and to stay as smooth as possible in your leans and steering inputs.

I find that starting wide, hitting the apex and exiting smooth and wide helps maintain momentum instead of using your bikes momentum to keep you leaned over at a steeper angle to take the turn tighter.

It seemed to work as I can often coast through a turn with this line and stay even with riders pedaling through a turn and sometimes pass riders while coasting :D

Not sure if this is the correct way to do it, but it seemed logical when he explained it and has helped me a bit.

[Fixed]

a wise cat once said if you have to pedal through a turn your not going fast enough
cheers

[Charles M]

OK....

Are we asking as it relates to racing or just going fast?


All the corniering pontification aside, in know 20 guys that would love to run a little tighter into a corner and simply have you finishing a turn hoping not bot nail the exit outside curb...

Racing moto's and or bikes with nobody around and the lines are not much different... but trying to carry speed versus close quarters racing are two different lines.

[brians647]

Mebbe I should esplain. It's a function of one-speeding, big gear at low speed makes that maneuver possible. ;)

Good God, that sound like fun!

a wise cat once said if you have to pedal through a turn your not going fast enough
cheers

That's always been my problem. :rolleyes:

[Lincoln]

...with one additional point to consider: where and what is the next turn? If the next turn is soon and going the opposite direction then a late apex will get you in position better, if it's soon and going the same direction then an early apex will tend to work better. If the next turn isn't for a while then all the other stuff matters more.

These concepts all apply to cars, motorcycles, skiing (bumps and gates), road biking, mt biking and a few other sports I've participated in. One constant is that in a series of linked turns (alternating direction) it's easy to move from late apexes to early apexes but really hard to go the other way.