Red brakes

[TACSTS]

Seems like quite a few on this board have gotten some time on SRAM's red group. I'm looking for a new set of brakes and was just wondering how the SRAM's compare to say Dura-Ace 7800. I need something with a quick release on the caliper. I'm finally tired of fighting with my ZeroG's and am looking for something reasonably light, good power, and not TOO $$$.

Thanks!

[SPOKE]

Seems like quite a few on this board have gotten some time on SRAM's red group. I'm looking for a new set of brakes and was just wondering how the SRAM's compare to say Dura-Ace 7800. I need something with a quick release on the caliper. I'm finally tired of fighting with my ZeroG's and am looking for something reasonably light, good power, and not TOO $$$.

Thanks!

the zero-G's don't open wide enough with their qr????

[wrestlr]

After my recent wreck yesterday due to the lack of stopping power I am done with the ZG brakes... at least the 07 ti models. Maybe there is hope in the negative G or maybe not but I do not want to test it any time soon.
-Mike

[pdxmech13]

The red brake calipers are really nice in modulation and very understated to most other lite weight calipers on the market. I too like the indexed brake release as it allows some fine tuning very quickly if neccessary. I do get a little noise during heavy high speed braking but I have been to lazy to make any toe adjustments to relieve this issue. I would go out on a limb and say it's the most well engineered part in the entire group. Durace may not be quite as lite but they sure have some serious stopping power atmo.

[paczki]

Mavic! Mavic! Mavic!

[flux]

After my recent wreck yesterday due to the lack of stopping power I am done with the ZG brakes... at least the 07 ti models. Maybe there is hope in the negative G or maybe not but I do not want to test it any time soon.
-Mike

I'll be testing a pair of the Neg-G's this summer. I really do like the Ti's but everyone says they are no good in the rain regardless of rim/pad selection.

Will add to my blog when they get here.

[TACSTS]

The issues I've had with my ZG's (stainless models btw) is that I carry my bike on a roof rack and have to take the front wheel on and off. One - that tiny little quick release, I assume designed as such to save weight, is very hard to get hold of. Recently mine has become doubly difficult and was sticking, requiring me to don a leather work glove and put all my grip into getting it to open so I could get the wheel off and get the bike on the car. Then 3 days ago I applied the front brake and it didn't un-apply. The whole thing is just seized. I have no clue. It's probably only got 3k or so on it, and I try to keep my bikes very clean so it's been well kept.

Anyhow, considering that I was already sort of planning on trying the new revised Rival when it comes out later this year, I was wondering how the Red brakes are.

Or what about these TRP jobs? -->
http://aebike.com/page.cfm?PageID=30&action=details&sku=BR7608

[flux]

The issues I've had with my ZG's (stainless models btw) is that I carry my bike on a roof rack and have to take the front wheel on and off. One - that tiny little quick release, I assume designed as such to save weight, is very hard to get hold of. Recently mine has become doubly difficult and was sticking, requiring me to don a leather work glove and put all my grip into getting it to open so I could get the wheel off and get the bike on the car. Then 3 days ago I applied the front brake and it didn't un-apply. The whole thing is just seized. I have no clue. It's probably only got 3k or so on it, and I try to keep my bikes very clean so it's been well kept.

Anyhow, considering that I was already sort of planning on trying the new revised Rival when it comes out later this year, I was wondering how the Red brakes are.

Or what about these TRP jobs? -->
http://aebike.com/page.cfm?PageID=30&action=details&sku=BR7608

I don't know about the TRP's but SRAM does the job well.

Have you tried WD-40 to de-corrode then some applications of Tri-Flow at the pivot points? Seems to me like all you need is some lube in the right places.

[TACSTS]

There's no visible corrosion on them. They are very clean. I put a drop or two of pro-link right on the pivot and it didn't help. It feels stuck hard, like a mechanical binding thing instead of corrosion/friction/etc. They are slated to head back to ZG to be fixed/replaced so hopefully it all will get sorted out.

[dookie]

Mavic! Mavic! Mavic!

+1.

the SSCs absolutely kill. i prefer them to anything i've ever ridden...record, DA, ZG, M5, cane creek, monoplanars. try 'em if you haven't!

[Charles M]

Negative G are a better brake in my oppinion. Better / more consistent power and still pretty light. A lot more beef...

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/tech/zerog/negcomptop.jpg
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/tech/zerog/negback.jpg
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/tech/zerog/negcomparm.jpg

The TRP are really a nice set up too. might be a little extra work to clean, but the QR is a pretty neat feature and the build leans more toward a solid rig...

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/charles/trp2.jpg

As for the new Red, I think there is a bit more modulation than D-ace and less flex front to back (or arm twist) than the earlier model. Between Skeleton Campy and D ace.

[dbrk]

Are we just saving grams? I guess I just don't understand the cost/benefit or the point of these comparisons. Modern brakes all work pretty darn well, some slightly better than others. But only slightly. All of my bikes stop reasonably well.

dbrk

[Z3c]

You might look at the KCNC brakes via Fairwheel bikes..
I am thinking that if you don't like the QR on the ZG's you really won't enjoy that aspect of the Mavic's as they don't have one.

Scott

[BrianP]

The Mavic brakes are great, but require a release on the lever (Campy). There is not a quick release on the actual caliper.

[Charles M]

Are we just saving grams? I guess I just don't understand the cost/benefit or the point of these comparisons. Modern brakes all work pretty darn well, some slightly better than others. But only slightly. All of my bikes stop reasonably well.

dbrk


There's quite a bit of difference in feel between several of the aftermarket light brakes as well as a gram drop...

Not everyone will want to pay for the difference in feel or the saved grams, but on a forum like this, trying to justify one things value and judge another is something I'll definitly leave to others...


As for the KCNC, I think they're pretty close to the standard Zero G for modulation but have a big QR that's pretty plainly easier to operate. they're also a lot less complicated in machining and easier to keep clean in general.

[RPS]

There's quite a bit of difference in feel between several of the aftermarket light brakes as well as a gram drop...Difference from one brand of aftermarket light brakes to another, or are you saying difference in feel versus standard-weight Shimano, Campy, etc.? In general do you like the feel of the aftermarket light brakes more or less? :confused:

[Louis]

Luddite that I am, on the bike on which I put 99% of my miles, I have some 20 year old Shimano single-pivot calipers. However, I do have to admit that the double-pivot Campy's on my DeRosa do stop a lot better...

[jeffg]

Luddite that I am, on the bike on which I put 99% of my miles, I have some 20 year old Shimano single-pivot calipers. However, I do have to admit that the double-pivot Campy's on my DeRosa do stop a lot better...

And double pivot Shimanos stop better than almost anything out there, which pains me since I have mostly Campy. That differential brake thing to save grams is just a gimmick to the ww crowd and entails a loss of functionality imho, not unlike that whole UT %$%^$^#^


So, for cost/stopping power:

1. Shimano

2. Mavic

3. Campy

Caveat: I have not made the leap and never intend to do so

[Samster]

One - that tiny little quick release, I assume designed as such to save weight, is very hard to get hold of. [/url]
this is why i like the campy qr system w/ my zg.

[Samster]

Luddite that I am, on the bike on which I put 99% of my miles, I have some 20 year old Shimano single-pivot calipers.jeezus louis. you gotta lose those things. with the hills being what they are where you live, and being the engineer that you are, you should know better than most of us the value of leverage.

[TACSTS]

I've always heard that Mavics were where it's at, but since this bike has Shimano shifters on it, and I might possibly leap to the re-designed Rival when it comes out, I have to rely on the quick release on the caliper.

Basically I've narrowed myself down to DA7800's or Red's. I was hoping someone had put miles on both and could do a good comparison. I know the DA's are a safe, strong, well-engineered bet. BUT - since I was considering SRAM-izing this bike over the winter anyhow, I thought I could start with the brakes if they don't suck.

[Der_Kruscher]

If you're considering Rival for the levers why not for the brakes? No experience with Red but I do have the Rival brakes and they work great...lighter than DA and cheap to boot.

[pdxmech13]

I did try here (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=46167&page=1&pp=15) yo

[palincss]

Are we just saving grams? I guess I just don't understand the cost/benefit or the point of these comparisons. Modern brakes all work pretty darn well, some slightly better than others. But only slightly. All of my bikes stop reasonably well.

dbrk

Agreed -- and wouldn't the best way to improve stopping power be to get better brake pads?

[palincss]

Luddite that I am, on the bike on which I put 99% of my miles, I have some 20 year old Shimano single-pivot calipers.


jeezus louis. you gotta lose those things. with the hills being what they are where you live, and being the engineer that you are, you should know better than most of us the value of leverage.

I guess maybe he was misled by all that irrelevant experience.

[Samster]

I guess maybe he was misled by all that irrelevant experience.
smart aleck (sp).

[TACSTS]

I did try here (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=46167&page=1&pp=15) yo

Ah, I didn't really read it that way, my mistake.

How 'bout this: Rate each brake on a 1 to 10 scale in these categories:

Power, Modulation, Fit/finish.

For example, you might say DA is a 10 on power to the Red's 7, etc.

Easier to get a feel for the performance of each brakeset that way I think.

[Louis]

I guess maybe he was misled by all that irrelevant experience.

Or maybe I'm just cheap...

You know, you can't jump on these newfangled components - they might end up just being a flash in the pan. Got to let them prove themselves over a few decades first. Kind of like "brifters." I'm still doing the DT shifters thing, but did make the leap to index. :)

[nm87710]

Using Red brakes since Nov07. DA10 prior 3 years.

DA10's are stronger/firmer but tend to offer just two modes (off/on) with limited modulation.

Red has great modulation plus the option of adjusting brake caliper tension if you want. Ball bearing pivots also help them stay smooth in poor conditions. Indexed caliper release is also nice if you use wheelsets with varying rim widths.

IMO Red brakeset is probably the most underrated/talked about piece of the groupo - and a steal at ~$200 on ebay for a new set.

[TACSTS]

...plus the option of adjusting brake caliper tension if you want...

Intriguing, how is this accomplished? I didn't see it mentioned on the SRAM site.

[Samster]

Or maybe I'm just cheap...

You know, you can't jump on these newfangled components - they might end up just being a flash in the pan. Got to let them prove themselves over a few decades first. Kind of like "brifters." I'm still doing the DT shifters thing, but did make the leap to index. :)

the neo primato deserves dt's.

[Charles M]

Difference from one brand of aftermarket light brakes to another, or are you saying difference in feel versus standard-weight Shimano, Campy, etc.? In general do you like the feel of the aftermarket light brakes more or less? :confused:

There's not a general better or worse. there are differences in stiffness, weight and stopping power, but that doesn't mean "more power" is better. Less weight is pretty simply less weight...

I know folks that like less bite and power because it lets em scrub speed and feather the brakes more.

The feel you would get out of these M5's (loads of power, zero pulse and very little pull required to lock up a wheel)...

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/tech/kuota/komgroupedetete.jpg

... is a lot different than standard Zero G (easy to feather the brakes with a lot more force required to lock up a wheel)

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/tech/parlee/parleerear.jpg


If the OP is looking for less expensive, then KCNC are reasonable (perform like Zero G but with a QR that is more simple). And they are more or less the same price as Campy Record.

http://fairwheelbikes.com/images/large/kcncrdbrkgold_LRG.jpg

and so are TRP 's (which break like Campy Skeletons).

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/tech/kuota/komsstay.jpg

And the TRP are a hundred bucks less than Campy Record...


I wouldn't imply that one of these were better or worse, and I get that there are folks that don't appreciate the newer product... That doesn't mean the weight benefits or differences in modulation are not what they are... It just means different things to different folks.

[Louis]

Forget about weight, since it's not really an issue for me.

Since I can lock-up every brake I've ever used, I conclude that they all have plenty of power.

So IMO it all comes down to one thing: Modulation...

.... and aesthetics. So many of those new-fangled calipers are the nastiest looking components I've seen in a long time.

[pdxmech13]

Durace have a spring tension adjustment as well.

[Tobias]

I know folks that like less bite and power because it lets em scrub speed and feather the brakes more.

The feel you would get out of these M5's (loads of power, zero pulse and very little pull required to lock up a wheel)...

... is a lot different than standard Zero G (easy to feather the brakes with a lot more force required to lock up a wheel)I’m confused here. :confused:

The M5s look like standard single pivot brakes which shouldn’t have much mechanical advantage to lock-up a wheel with ease. I can easily accept that they may be both stiff and light in weight due to their intricate design, but what makes them have “loads of power” and require “little pull” to lock-up a wheel?

On the other hand, the Zero Gs have a cam mechanism that mimics the greater mechanical advantage of dual-pivot calipers, yet you think they require a lot more force to lock up a wheel.

Unless the pad materials are completely different (which could then be substituted), what accounts for this discrepancy? It seems backwards from what we should expect unless I’m missing something about how the M5s work. Is there a leverage multiplier that doesn't show on the pictures?

BTW: Nice pictures.

[Charles M]

What you're saying makes absolute sense if the structures being mechanically manipulated are of the same relative stiffness. They’re not.

The M5 brake parts (arms) are about as flexible as the Israelis are on who controls Jerusalem... ;)

That's part of why Zero G have "progresive" power as the arms flex initially but the mechanical help "kicks in". That's either something you like or something you don't. The M5 are so stiff they can get away with more minimal hardware and structure.

That said, the new TRP brakes have a bit stiffer structure than the Zero G (similar to the Negative G) and also have the benefit of Mechanical support. I think folks will really like those...

[goonster]

Zero G have "progresive" power as the arms flex initially but the mechanical help "kicks in".

That scares the bejeezus out of me just reading about it.

I'd rather ride the slotted cranks off ebay than use brake calipers that look like the love child of a meth-addled civil engineering freshman and a CNC machine. But that's just me . . .

[benb]

Don't forget to try different pads too... they can have great effects on whichever caliper you stick them in.

[Tobias]

What you're saying makes absolute sense if the structures being mechanically manipulated are of the same relative stiffness. They’re not.

The M5 brake parts (arms) are about as flexible as the Israelis are on who controls Jerusalem... ;) Thanks for the feedback. I haven't tried the M5s but can tell from the pictures they don't have much mechanical advantage.

Because of that the brakes should feel very stiff just like most single pivot calipers (of old or new) or other brakes that have less leverage than what we have become accustomed to lately with modern dual-pivot brakes. They may feel great and are easy to modulate but they can't possibly have much stopping power if they lack leverage. To me it seems these things go hand in hand since stiffness doesn't change leverage much as I understand it.

It would be interesting to know how much flex a rider senses due to stretch in the cable and compression of the pads versus flex in the caliper itself.

[Charles M]

The pictures might be a bit decieveing as far as telling what the mechanical advantage is. The lever arms of the M5 are also different (length and angle)... That also effects leverage.

As for pad differences, I run same pads (and when the fit is right, same shoes) and the brakes all got tested on a nokon equiped bike with the same carbon tubular and metal clincher wheels. So relative feel is a bit more relevant. But test a carbon wheel (the same wheel as wheel weight will also effect brake feel) with Cork and another with fiber/rubber compound like swisstop or Bontrager / chimano pads and the compression and bite are dramatically different.

It's like the tire deflection / pressure thing as relates to ride smoothness. sure it can make a big difference, but it doesn't mean that frames are irrelevant with regard to ride quality...

Again it's all relative. Mechanical leverage is simply only a part of performance, and even then, what suites one person might not be another persons choice.

[palincss]

That scares the bejeezus out of me just reading about it.

I'd rather ride the slotted cranks off ebay than use brake calipers that look like the love child of a meth-addled civil engineering freshman and a CNC machine. But that's just me . . .


Don't hold back, Goon, tell us what you really think. :)

[goonster]

Don't hold back, Goon, tell us what you really think.

OK: Most civil engineers are gentle, harmless creatures, until exposed to something that moves, at which point the sudden onset of confusion and panic can be quite startling.




I keed . . . ;)

[vaxn8r]

I've never tried M5's but what I have heard corroborates what PezTech said. Super powerful with little modulation.

[RPS]

Don't forget to try different pads too... they can have great effects on whichever caliper you stick them in.Good point since a higher coefficient of friction is about the best way to improve braking without other compromises.

Higher friction can have the same high-stopping-power effect as higher mechanical advantage without introducing clearance issues and/or spongy feel. It also reduces flex in the caliper, rim, and reduces cable stretch.

[Charles M]

The problem is that fine line between higher friction and "sticktion" where pads can be grabby and pulse... The stiffer the brake arms the less the brakes shows / pads can twist... it's that grab / twist / release that you feel to some degree when you feel pulsing... On a few Metal and more often carbon wheels it can be both snatchy pads and arm flex and uneven rims that cause the pulse... when it's a combination of the two it makes for CRAP braking (but then some folks call it their "ABS kicking in...) problem is when you're front wheel is loaded under heavy braking, that "abs" stands for automatic back slide.

OK, all done with geeking out...

[ClutchCargo]

The problem is that fine line between higher friction and "sticktion" where pads can be grabby and pulse... The stiffer the brake arms the less the brakes shows / pads can twist... it's that grab / twist / release that you feel to some degree when you feel pulsing... On a few Metal and more often carbon wheels it can be both snatchy pads and arm flex and uneven rims that cause the pulse... when it's a combination of the two it makes for CRAP braking (but then some folks call it their "ABS kicking in...) problem is when you're front wheel is loaded under heavy braking, that "abs" stands for automatic back slide.

OK, all done with geeking out...

In one of your above posts, you mentioned that the TRP's "break" like Campy. Did you really mean "brake like Campy"? (Are those TRP's made be Tektro, btw?)

Oh, and one other: you compared the KCNC's to the ZG's, but I thought folks who are geeked out on brake stuff seem to prefer the KCNC's as being more reliable and easier to set up (aren't the KCNC's dual pivot as well?).

Looking forward to the response, thanks.





ride on!