Is Postal falling apart along with Lance's Tour potential?

[Bruce K]

Today Velonews ran a story that Christian Vande Velde is trying to get out of the last year of his USPS contract to join Roberto Heras at his new team.

I wonder how many defections USPS and Lance can stand before he will no longer have sufficient support to have a shot at another Tour win.

It also makes you wonder about the status of USPS. I have not yet heard that they are confirmed for this season, even though they have a few more days to get that fixed. Couple that with the number of key riders jumping ship and you just have to think that Lance and Postal are in trouble.

BK

[Kevan]

Given what government watch groups have reported regarding the postal service's sports marketing expenses, the impact that had on future budgets and methods of operation, as well as, Lance's waning career, and the fact that most cyclists only have year-by-year contracts, there's no doubt going to be some shakeup at the USPS bicycle rack.

I think there is little doubt that Lance's 6th will be the hardest fought both at the negotiation table and on the road.

[e-RICHIE]

i think it's more likely that these are t weisel's issues, not postals; he owns the team - they are just one of several visible sponsors. i'm speculatin' that as long as he cares to play, there will be sponsors waiting in the wings to support his efforts.

e-RICHIE

ps

:bike: :bike: :bike: :bike: :bike: :bike: :bike: :bike: :bike:

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that to me is absolutely vital in maintaining the motivation and forward momentum of any organization. That “something” is a fair and collegial sharing of credit and achievement among the members of the team. To many employees, having their contribution publicly acknowledged, as well as an occasional chance to share in the spotlight, is equally--or more--important than just the paycheck. That sense of sharing has been sadly lacking on Postal. It’s a one-man show, and we all know who that man is.

Look at the record . . . I believe someone else here on the forum noted that no other member of Postal has won a stage in the Tour as long as Lance is racing. I have to note what a big deal it seemed to be last year when, through an early race fluke, Rubiera ended up in the yellow jersey for a few days. Yet, despite the obvious fact that it would only last for a few days and it could very well be the only time Rubiera EVER wears the yellow, he STILL had to go do gofer duty for Lance. How much of an embarrassment must that have been for him to be seen on worldwide TV by--especially by his friends and family--playing Steppin Fetchit for lance while wearing the LEADERS jersey, fer Pete’s sake! It says something about the team philosophy, just as it would have said a lot if LANCE had played domestique for just a few minutes, giving back something to someone who had given so much for him.

I think acts like you saw with Rubiera say much more in a negative way about a team than any positive things a mere paycheck can say. I also think that riders are real people with real career desires and they have grown to see Postal as a great way to learn and get going when you first break in, but people like Heras and Vande Velde are correctly seeing reality and realizing they are never even going to have a chance to earn top dog status as long as Lance is there. Tyler is a smart guy, seeing that--you never would have seen him being allowed to break away on Stage 16 this past year like he did if he were still on Postal. Couple that with the obvious sponsorship upheaval on the horizon and the long lead times for making future ride deals and the beginnings of major shakeout for personnel are not that surprising. I don’t see Hincapie leaving because he gets the support he wants early in the season for his beloved Classics, and Ekimov is close to--in fact already returned once from--retirement. But everyone else could jump ship at any time.

If you want to see the fellowship and fairness that Postal lacks, look at CSC while Tyler was there. Riis garners high marks from Tyler and his riders for the way he runs the team. Look at the depth they showed this past year to win the team category, with three separate riders winning stages--and team leader Tyler cheering them on and giving them public credit for their help! Two entirely different approaches. Which team would YOU rather be a member of if you could not be team leader?

I think the biggest factor in Lance’s winning a sixth tour--or not--could very well turn out to be whether he has the magnanimity to let somebody else break away or win a stage and get some of the glory.

Remember the old Munster’s TV show? It was a running joke that whenever Herman walked innocently into a public building, people would suddenly start hurtling through windows as they ran away. If you see Lance win a sixth--or not--and retire along with Postal sponsorship ending, then you are gonna see the Herman Munster type exit for lots of Postal riders.

BBDave

[Tom]

Postal was put together for one purpose, anybody signing on knows that. They further their careers by being part of the group that delivers their guy to first place. When the time comes, they bail. That's what Heras is doing and it makes a lot of sense.

A guy like Rubiera embarrassing himself? Hell, no. I think he raised his stock with the people putting teams together by a lot. Personally, I thought what he was doing was incredibly honorable. People like that are who I want on my side in any contest.

If a team run like CSC can do that and get individual first place, all the better. Their strategy is different and their results are good. However, ask any TV watcher in the US who won the team classification in the TdF or any grand tour and they will simply stare at you like a cow. Team classifications aren't selling Nikes or Treks.

[PaulE]

I agree with e-RITCHIE. USPS is already USPS presented by Berry Floor. Berry Floor may be waiting in the wings to become the main sponsor when USPS' contract ends. Also, Weisel was the force behind the Subaru-Montgomery team before he left Montgomery to form his own investment firm. That probably had something to do with LA getting an endorsement contract with Subaru, and maybe Subaru wants to come back as a team sponsor as well. If LA retires after this year's TdF, whether he wins or not, how much longer would he have value to Subaru as their spokesperson?

Could the turnover at USPS partly be due to other guys on the team already angling to be annointed the successor to LA as team leader after this year's TdF?

[BumbleBeeDave]

I agree with you about the marketing . . . but I meant that the TEAM embarrassed Rubiera, not that he embarrassed himself!

BBDave:D

[Johny]

Sorry , it is not Rubiera, but Pena, who wore the yellow jersey.
And I do not see anything wrong with that "Pena" story in the TdF. Simply, any riders appreciate how precious to put on the yellow jersey. Without the team effort, Pena would not get the chance. Again, it is a team sport. The strategy of the USPS is to win the Tour and only Lance is capable of donig it in the team.

Christian Vande Velde was once considered as one of the future stars. However, back luck and politics had kept him from being selected in the TdF team. And Simply, he would get more money and serve better in the Liberty team because Heras and the team want him. Hey, he is a big buy excellent at time trial (will be very useful in the Team Time Trial) and a hard working domestigue also good at climbing.

Lance once said to one of his teammates, something like "If you donot want to work, it is fine. We will find someone else to do the job". Yes, this is a one-man show but again, this team is created for Lance.

[dbrk]

There are other Postals who have shown that they too have promise for helping Lance win a sixth, such as Michael Barry who is just dying to get a spot on that Tour team. Perhaps Vande Velde sees the writing on the wall for his own chances or there may plenty of stuff we don't know.

Support is crucial but look at Ullrich last year. He had, imho, terrible support but he nearly won on the sheer prowess of his abilities. So long as Lance can climb with the best of the best and stay in the top three of a time trial, the only way he can really lose is if the team time trial flops---or someone else just plain beats him. Tour riding is that peculiar combination of being the best-or nearly-or close enough in all facets of riding. It's unimaginably hard in my mind. Cycling has a way of sorting out the truth, no?

dbrk

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . My mistake about Pena. But I stand by my comments. It was early in the race and giving him a bit of respect as the yellow jersey wearer would not have been strategically disadvantageous for the rest of the team . . . and it is symptomatic of the general team setup.

At the bottom line it is the one-man show that will drive riders away. Postal may be a professional and productive ship for the time being, but I do not see it as a happy ship.

BBDave

[bags27]

Lance aside, I want e-RICHIE to build me one of those cool trikes he used in his post. The traditional Sachs red (though maybe a bit more rake).

[Bosun]

I read a report on the "incident" when Pena went back to get waterbottles--it was humorous. When Pena got back to the car, Johan said "the yellow jersey doesn't get bottles..." Pena told this story, laughing about it. He did on his own volition--there was no deviant alpha male ordering him to do it.

Second--I don't think that the mentioned bikers ever expected to move up the food chain in Postal--and become a top dog as it were. All of these teams are set up with roles, and most of the riders in the TDF realize that they will not win, much less win a stage. It's their job--they ride for money, and if another team will provide more money (which is also the same as exposure) they will go there.

:bike: :bike:

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . he should not have been sent back up to the peloton carrying bottles for the team. The fact that Bruyneel would not pick up on that and ORDER him to go back and have someone else do it partially proves my point.

Second--These riders may realize they are not going to be promoted as long as Big Tex rules the roost, but giving them a chance to grab some TV time in a breakaway or try for a stage victory early in the Tour is the kind of thing that team leaders traditionally do to cultivate the personal pride that contributes to those riders being motivated to work harder for the team leader when he needs it. Any rider who is, required as a matter of policy to :crap: all the time without getting any :beer: is going to be asking himself sooner or later what he is getting out of the deal besides a paycheck--and as I said, to many people the intangibles are as important as the paycheck.

BBDave

[Len J]

BumbleBeeDave:

I think you are projecting how you would feel onto the riders.

I look at it this way; A rider goes to USPS with full knowledge that 1.) It's Lance's team, 2.) Other than some early training races, if Lance is in the race, everything is about making sure that Lance wins, & 3.) Lance & Brunell believe that every ounce of energy is important in a grand tour. Therefor, no Individual efforts that are not tactically sound (towards Lance winning) will be allowed, ie no waste of anyone's energy (vis a vis the goal). They know what they are signing up for. On the other side, Bruneel, Lance, & USPS know that there is an inherent risk in not playing to the individual's need for recognition, that risk being thier defection. I suspect they are always looking for new talent because of this. Both sides are taking a risk in order to get rewards.

What rewards you say? For the riders, a chance to gain training and major tour experience, as well as paydays that are well in excess of the average Domestique on any other team. All 8 USPS riders (excluding Lance) in the last two TDF's got a check for over $100,000 each year for their assistance to Lance winning. (He gave them 100% of his winnings (over $400,000) and matched it from his own money. This was over and above their Salary. CSC riders sure didn't get that. Prior to 2002, they each got checks for $50,000+.

The gains to the Team are obvious.

You may not like their strategy, but it is hard to argue with 5 straight wins.

Len

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . with the success of the strategy. It stands for itself. And of course I am projecting my feelings onto the riders because that is the only frame of reference I have--my own. How would I feel if I were in that situation? I would be looking at my own skill and talent level, and then looking elsewhere to see who might be willing to pay me as much--or almost as much--and make up the differences with those intangibles of glory and publicity.

I think that is common among workers in many industries, especially athletes who may have more ego investment than most. For Postal, denying the personal ego-gratification of the domestiques may be a winning strategy for the short term, but it may also require a larger investment in labor to locate fresh supplies of new talent and an acknowledgement that they will have to keep that up or fail.

BBDave

[Len J]

Couldn't agree more.

In addition, Christian has not been a part of USPS TDF for the last two years, as well as dropping out early in 2001 (after the wreck in stage 3 that broke his arm, he hung on for the TTT (where he also crashed (I think) and then withdrew)/ So his loss is not that big a deal. But the point remains that there is some risk in the USPS strategy, a risk they accept.

Len

[Tetraptych]

Relatively new poster here, but I've been lurking for quite a while and I just wanted to point out something in reference to Pena carrying the water bottles in the yellow jersey. Assuming he did go back for them himself and asked to carry him, it seems very possible to me that he did this as an expression of humility, to prove that wearing the yellow didn't go to his head. Cynic that I am, I'd probably be bracing myself to being ordered around the moment he put the jersey on, even if he was the nicest and most humble person around.

He might have simply felt very awkward and uncomfortable having his normal responsibilities shifted onto someone else's shoulders, and opted to keep doing his job as normal, the fact that he is the first and only Colombian to wear the yellow jersey being thrill enough.

I think anyone going to work for USPS would have to do so with both eyes open, knowing they were going to be working like dogs with very little chance of glory for themselves. Some people are perfectly content with this, and some people change their minds after a few years.

Look at it this way: a good friend of mine worked as a computer animator for Disney for a few years. They were horrible to work for, and his treatment was almost Dickensian in its long hours and low pay. But he suffered through it for a few years, hated it most of the time, then left with pretty much every door he could have asked for open to him.

I think USPS is pretty much the same: long hours and hard work for little glory, but there are other things that can be just as rewarding. This is most definitely not to say that recognition isn't important, but private recognition and confidence in their own contribution can be enough for some people.

[mavic1010]

The USPS strategy may be short-term, but then again, their main sponsorship is over after this year and it doesn't seem like they are having too much trouble attracting young talent. Their budget is huge, they basically travel like rock stars, and they ride for one of the premier cycling teams in the world.

Doesn't seem like the domestiques are complaining too much about not getting enough face time in addition Lance and Bruyneel were overjoyed to see Pena in yellow for a few days and give him props during the interviews, especially since Pena has given alot during the past 3 years for Lance.

Their is gratitude for all their (domestiques) work, however, should Pena be treated like a team leader just because he was in yellow for a few days? He did ride behind all the other domestiques during the flat stages etc...but let's face it, he's a great domestique and not a team leader. He received some of the perks of being in yellow but not all they are attributed to being a team leader.

In addition, they stacked their team to help George out in the Classics (2002), and George couldn't do it (much to the displeasure of Lance when he rode some of those classics); they stacked the team for the Vuelta and Heras came through right at the end (2003).

In my opinion, USPS does alot for their team members, but the main goal of the year never changes...win the TDF, plain and simple.

[Kevan]

While there's no quibble that the Posties are basically a TdF team, they do compete in other races. These races give the other members of the team the opportunity to win a place in that event, with Lance sometimes working in support of that rider (If he's there!), quid pro quo style. At one point during last season, I can't recall all the details, Lance had been working for one rider to show, but unfortunately things didn't work out as hoped. I think Lance voiced some frustration that his teammate hadn't tried harder to seize the glory. Anyway... Hincapie has had some success with the Spring classics, no?

Team ownership may remain the same, but with the change of sponsorship and possibly new objectives that come with that, and team members seeking their own destiny elsewheres, isn't there a general metamorphosis in the team that goes beyond simply flashing a new race kit? It must be hard to keep the chemistry working with all that change going on.

I'll leave it to those closer to the dynamics of pro racing to know what goes on. But a sport that fosters individual glory, there's no way we can expect people to remain tied down forever, acting in support of another. Knowing one's limits certainly helps in making a team player, but assuming those limits are few... why not go for the yellow yourself?

BBD your views are noble, however the Posties have made it clear their objective and the chemistry that works for them. TdF 2003 showed two primary objects for the teams either it was for a jersey or it was for stage win. The strategies for these different objectives seem completely different.

Until I recently got the 12 hr. DVD for the 2003 TdF, I had only a sketchy idea of the antics that go on...

I’m still learning.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . they have made their objectives and methods crystal clear. No argument there. My main observation was that it is not the kind of atmosphere I personally would want to work in and I can understand if others also feel that way and vote with their feet.

BBDave:crap:

BTW Kevan . . . did you get my e-mail the other day?--BBD

[Kevan]

I've replied.

[csm]

I think lance will win the tour this year and I think his team will come together fine. could this be another ploy of weakness by LA to get to his rivals?