Interesting CL experience

[drssyoon]

I just had an interesting Craigslist experience that I thought I'd share.

I was scanning through the local list yesterday when an ad caught my eyes. It was for a Pinarello and a Lightspeed. Some mis-spelling, not much information, tiny pictures. Thought I'd call to find out what was up - at least to check the size.

The gentleman who answered did not know much at all about the bikes, except that they belonged to a tenant who skipped out on him. He had the two bikes, a couple of bags, helmets, stand, etc. He lived not too far from me so I decided to take a look with a friend.

The house was rather funky. The bikes were stored in a wooden shed in the back yard. When we pulled them out, I knew these were special. The first was Pinarello Prince SL with Cosmic Carbons, Campy Record carbon/titanium 10 speed shifters, brakes, derailleurs, FSA carbon cranks, stem, handlebar, Look carbon pedals. The bikes looked new - not more than couple hundred miles on them judging by chains, cassettes. Pinarello had 2 carbon bottle cages as well. The Litespeed was Tuscany, identically spec'd except for the wheels which were Spynergy carbons. My jaws just about dropped when he said $2500 for both, including a Park Tool stand, 3 top-line helments, etc. Interestingly, there was a US Postal team bag as well.

Well, the bikes ended up being too large for me, but not for my friend. He had no intention of buying a bike, but he ended up purchasing the Pinarello for $1000! On the drive home, I thought about the Tuscany and called him back to purchase it just for the components, but unfortunately it was sold by then.

The gentleman told me that the tenant took off without his bikes nor a nice flat screen TV. He must have been in a hurry.

Wow! I couldn't sleep last night thinking about this. Hopefully the original owner is OK.

Craigslist can work - sometimes. You need to be vigilant and check often, and buy even if you are not 100% sure. In fact, my current Lemond Arrivee Classic was a CL purchase. Unfortunately, there are way too many clueless asking ridiculous prices for old huffys.

[false_Aest]

Eh,

Not to be too suspicious but did you guys bother to call the police and find out if those bikes were reported as missing?

If I remember correctly responsibility to make sure 2nd hand items are not stolen falls on the purchaser.

[Onno]

How do you know these bikes weren't stolen? The story sound rather dubious. Would someone owning such expensive bikes really just dump them? Would he/she live in, or rent, in a funky house? Was there even a rental unit at the funky house?

[drssyoon]

Yes, my friend will definitely do so. We did get a bill of sales from the gentleman.

We were suspicious as well. However, he had the bikes, a trailer hitch, work stand, a bike trailer, helmets, shoes, etc. They definitely looked like they were stored in the wooden shed for several months.

Wouldn't you think that if these bikes were stolen, he would not be selling them out of his house?

[Louis]

Seems unlikely that a thief would steal all that stuff. How often do folks lift a work stand? (Unless the landlord has the cyclist buried under the crawl space...)

[cmg]

or the nice gentleman locked the renter in the basement or the renter left on vacation and the nice gentleman ditched the nice stuff on craigslist. only to be reported stolen by the renter when he comes back or when they find his body......... if it sounds too good to be true, look for the lie.

[drssyoon]

Yikes - I hope that is not the case. I mean really, should we always expect the worst? That would put any "bargains" in a questionable category unless you purchased from a store, no? I've gotten some great CL and pawnshop deals.

or the nice gentleman locked the renter in the basement or the renter left on vacation and the nice gentleman ditched the nice stuff on craigslist. only to be reported stolen by the renter when he comes back or when they find his body......... if it sounds too good to be true, look for the lie.

[Smiley]

Sounds to me like a HOT situation.

[cmg]

"That would put any "bargains" in a questionable category unless you purchased from a store, no?" Yep, this one falls under the too good to be true category. it is beyond a good deal/bargain. a bargain is a 1 yr old bike at half it's original cost. a Pinarello Prince SL with Cosmic Carbons, Campy Record carbon/titanium 10 speed shifters, brakes, derailleurs, FSA carbon cranks, stem, handlebar, Look carbon pedals for $1k? at any price below $5K would still have been a great deal. the alarms would be screaming in my head, i wouldn't be able to hear anything. Be afraid of being there when the other shoe drops. But then again i'm a cynic....... maybe the gentlemans story was true. With $20k worth of bike stuff in a wooden shed in the back, yea he could be telling the truth.

[znfdl]

I think we need to call in CSI. ;)

[drssyoon]

So you would never buy such bike? What would be the threshold for your comfort level?

I purchased my Lemond Arrivee Classic with ultegra/DA, carbon bars and Ksyrium SLs for $500 from the original owner. Is that below or above the threshold?

Do you call in the SN to the local police and there is no record. Is that sufficient?

I am not trying to stir things up, but are there people who would pass up legitimate bargain because it is "too much" of a bargain?

I saw a Tudor chronograph at a local national chain pawn shop for $400 which would have had about $3000 retail. It was snatched up when I returned about an hour later. Bargains do exist, although they are few and far in-between.

I am really curious at the general view here that the seller was guilty somehow.

My view is that the guy had a tenant that skipped out on him without paying rent - for whatever the reason. He didn't know anything about bikes and their value, even after googling - he told me so. He thought the bikes were somewhere between 3000 - 7000 new. He was going to make some money and put them on the CL.

I definitely do not think it is my job to tell him that he could get $5000 for the Pinarello, and he should put it on the Serotta forum, box it up and ship it. In fact, judging by his appearance, he would not want to do that. If he had sold the bike for $3000, even with the same background explanation, would that not have raised a flag?


Very interesting reaction from the group...

"That would put any "bargains" in a questionable category unless you purchased from a store, no?" Yep, this one falls under the too good to be true category. it is beyond a good deal/bargain. a bargain is a 1 yr old bike at half it's original cost. a Pinarello Prince SL with Cosmic Carbons, Campy Record carbon/titanium 10 speed shifters, brakes, derailleurs, FSA carbon cranks, stem, handlebar, Look carbon pedals for $1k? at any price below $5K would still have been a great deal. the alarms would be screaming in my head, i wouldn't be able to hear anything. Be afraid of being there when the other shoe drops. But then again i'm a cynic....... maybe the gentlemans story was true. With $20k worth of bike stuff in a wooden shed in the back, yea he could be telling the truth.

[Acotts]

Eff' it dude. Put that Rello in high gear and ride that sucker home!

[csm]

just peel the stickers off and file away the serial number.
just in case, ya know?

[drssyoon]

Don't you know that you never do that? It would weaken the structural integrity. You need to add some numbers and turn 3s into 8s.

Kidding aside, I really hope that this is not the result of something unfortunate. Material things are just things, not worth jinxing your karma over.



just peel the stickers off and file away the serial number.
just in case, ya know?

[csm]

what happened to the tv anyway?

[DukeHorn]

I bought my Merlin off of craigslist. The owner had the original receipt back when Wheelsmith was in Palo Alto.

You can laugh, but saving a thousand or so bucks isn't worth it.

Apply your common sense to the scenario and then figure out your comfort with it.

If you frequent pawn shops looking for bargains, good for you. I just like my life a little bit cleaner without having to resort to "bargains".

Let's see, a "tenant" skips out leaving behind a flatscreen TV and two bikes (worth let's say 6k). You think he was behind that much in rent? Which part of the country do you live in? How nice was this place? The gear comes straight out of a wooden shed. He's not worried about you checking on it, you got a deal.

This reminds me of the FedEx "scam". There's a certain amount of packages "lost" that's covered by their insurance. Well, surprisingly enough, I know FedEx warehouse guys that happen to have new stereo equipment or golf gear to sell out of the back of their trunks. Yeah, I can save lots of money buying it. I don't and I'm not going to apologize for having a sense of right and wrong (even if "insurance" covers the losses).

[drssyoon]

Sold before we got there.

what happened to the tv anyway?

[CNY rider]

So you would never buy such bike? What would be the threshold for your comfort level?

I purchased my Lemond Arrivee Classic with ultegra/DA, carbon bars and Ksyrium SLs for $500 from the original owner. Is that below or above the threshold?

Do you call in the SN to the local police and there is no record. Is that sufficient?

I am not trying to stir things up, but are there people who would pass up legitimate bargain because it is "too much" of a bargain?

I saw a Tudor chronograph at a local national chain pawn shop for $400 which would have had about $3000 retail. It was snatched up when I returned about an hour later. Bargains do exist, although they are few and far in-between.

I am really curious at the general view here that the seller was guilty somehow.

My view is that the guy had a tenant that skipped out on him without paying rent - for whatever the reason. He didn't know anything about bikes and their value, even after googling - he told me so. He thought the bikes were somewhere between 3000 - 7000 new. He was going to make some money and put them on the CL.

I definitely do not think it is my job to tell him that he could get $5000 for the Pinarello, and he should put it on the Serotta forum, box it up and ship it. In fact, judging by his appearance, he would not want to do that. If he had sold the bike for $3000, even with the same background explanation, would that not have raised a flag?


Very interesting reaction from the group...


The key difference is that you bought the LeMond from its rightful owner.
As long as the two of you agreed on the price, then everyone goes away happy.

The stuff bought out of the shed was not for sale by its rightful owner.
Did it not occur to you that at some point he will come back looking for his property, which will then need to be returned as the current "owners" do not have legitimate claim to it?

[drssyoon]

You make a very good point. However, not that I support it, but in many states once the tenant abandons their apartment/room the property belongs to the owner. In Georgia, for example, you see people's stuff out on the sidewalks and roads all the time if tenants cannot make payment. The police makes sure that the tenants are not in the way as things are tossed. Ugly and not right, but that is how the law is written. The legal ownership of material passes from the renter to the landlord. Bad for karma? Yes. Against the law, no.

Anyway, we are digressing.

As I stated before, maybe I am naive, but I would like to think that the person is innocent until proven guilty and also that the original owner had reasons for doing what he did.

I am still curious about the Postal Team bag.

The key difference is that you bought the LeMond from its rightful owner.
As long as the two of you agreed on the price, then everyone goes away happy.

The stuff bought out of the shed was not for sale by its rightful owner.
Did it not occur to you that at some point he will come back looking for his property, which will then need to be returned as the current "owners" do not have legitimate claim to it?

[justinf]

If the bikes actually do show up as stolen, then a person with heart takes his lumps. Of course. this danger exists with most secondhand purchases.

In most states, the bikes were the property owner's to sell at his discretion.

As is often the case, the moralizers are quick to swarm around here.

[MilanoTom]

If the bikes actually do show up as stolen, then a person with heart takes his lumps. Of course. this danger exists with most secondhand purchases.

In most states, the bikes were the property owner's to sell at his discretion.

As is often the case, the moralizers are quick to swarm around here.

Those of us who are licensed to practice in a couple, or even a few, jurisdictions generally know better than to say what the law is in "most states." But hey, it's not like you've got to worry about anything in the event somebody goes by your opinion and it turns out to be wrong.

Just for sh*ts and grins, I checked a half dozen states (yeah, I know... I can't compare to someone who knows the law in most states). Not one statute said property could simply be sold at the discretion of the property owner. Some required an attempt at written notice. One referenced a legal eviction proceeding (and that same state also required a written inventory to be given to a "peace officer"). You get the idea. Each state (disclaimer: I didn't check 'em all) has some sort of requirements to balance the rights of the landlord (faced with a deadbeat tenant) with the rights of the tenant (faced with a crazy landlord). Without some kind of order to this mess, you could have a landlord faced with storing abandoned property indefinitely or a tenant a couple of days late on his rent, only to come home to find his bikes and TV gone.

OK, so let's say that the landlord F'ed up and sold the property. None of the states I checked indicated that the property could be subsequently retrieved from a purchaser and returned to the tenant. My guess (not legal opinion, mind you, not being one to practice in the landlord/tenant arena) is that the tenant would have the right to sue the landlord for damages resulting from the landlord's failure to follow the legal requirements in that jurisdiction (and conversion of the personal property - but I welcome some other lawyer to correct me on that), leaving the bottom feeder to keep the bicycle(s) or other item(s) in question.

Dryssyoon, care to let us know your state (I didn't notice it in your profile) so we can see if the landlord did everything required by law?

Yeah, I suppose that makes me a "moralizer." Either that or I just don't need a bargain that bad.

Regards.
Tom

[justinf]

Let me clarify: if the property owner followed proper legal procedure, the buyer and seller should be fine in this case. I never said I was quoting legal advice, Milano Tom. And I didn't see a previous post from you either.

I do hold a broker's license in several states, have cursorily studied in others, and deal with this issue on a monthly basis. So I am certainly qualified to offer an internet opinion.

And, my comments about the moralizing hold water on this thread and others.

[csm]

I too am qualified to offer an internet opinion. based on nothing. but still qualified.
though there is actually things the landlord must do to fulfill his obligation here.

[justinf]

Agreed. But any business deal is inherently compromised if someone does not adhere to the law.

[MilanoTom]

You know, although I can honestly say I've never taken a "questionable" deal, I'll be the first to admit that they're mighty hard to turn down. All I can say for sure is that if I ever did let my bike lust get the better of me, I'd never go to a forum like this one to try and get confirmation that I'd done the right thing.

Regards.
Tom

PS - Justin - Clarification duly noted. Sorry to have let my temporary indignation do my typing.

[drssyoon]

I did not realize I was trying to get confirmation from anyone on this forum. It was an interesting set of events and actually, not to rain on anyone's self-important parade, but I did not buy anything - it was my friend who bought the bike. Perhaps his moral compass isn't as righteous as some of us here. I like him just fine.

Wow... it must be great to see the world so clearly.

Over and out. Thanks.

[cmg]

i unfortunetly wouldn't have been able to buy it. the moment it would look questionable i would walk away. In order for the sale to work you have to believe someone would be willing to abandon a pair of $6-8k bicycles. i could never believe that. even if he had some kind of document i wouldn't believe it. See this as a Law and Order episode, tenant gets busted, calls relative to take out stuff from apartment, sell on craigslist to make bail, before the PD gets a search warrant. it would have actually be worth $1k for me to buy it. which means the Pinerrello would have to be about 6-8yrs old with a campy mix, one item be record level, open pro wheels, 9-10spd, something would be damaged. But i have been wrong before.

[BoulderGeek]

I'd be interested to hear the conclusion of this story, if the friend does ask the police to check prior stolen bike reports.

Seems fishy, to be sure.

[mdeeds71]

Believe it or not...when I went to the first Gulf War...I left a Serotta and an Original Klein Attitude and told the landlord to do as he wished. I was given only 48 hours to get to Ft Bragg and did not want any headaches associated with things not sorted out. I believe that was about 4-5k in bikes and bike stuff.

He sold and I never really missed them...I came back alive and without any remorse about them...although I would like to have that attitude...I will someday buy an NOS.

So far as I am concerned...Great Bargain...and since it was CL...most thefts of these types of bikes are listed on CL as well. I would have bought and checked with the CLs for these then police and slept well.

[benb]

For all anyone knows the original owner owed a ton of money on credit cards for the bikes, was way behind in rent, and was just buried and made a run for it.. it has been happening.

I've certainly met a few people who buried themselves in credit card debt to get fancy bikes. Now how stupid do they have to be to flee & not liquidate some things that would obviously pay down a lot of debt & rent??

[handsomerob]

I have a customer that paves asphault. He got a job to redo a parking lot at the Memphis International Airport. There was an abandoned car in the long term parking that needed to be moved and had been there for a long time. He made an offer on and bought it with funds going towards the parking fees. The purchase required some extra effort to get the title reissued, but he picked up a 2003 Toyota MR2 with 24k miles for $2500. His wife drove it for a year and they sold it for almost $10k.

Why someone would abandon a paid for 2003 Toyota MR2 at the long term parking in the airport for over a year is beyond me... but it happened.