Another Group Ride Bad Story

[Mud]

First let me see that my wife and I do not do group rides. Nothing against them but we do not consider ourselves anywhere close to being elite riders and anyone less than that scares up.

But over the last 12 years I have seen some really bad accidents, mostly caused by Peleton Fever. This is a disease where for no good reason you suddenly decide that you can safely ride in a group a few feet apart even though you have not done it before.

This one took place near the four corners outside of Boonton and was a club ride. We just came on it on our way home. We usually stop for a drink just west of the four corners since we do not feel that drinking on a bike and cars mix well for us. (Guess we will never make it in the Tour.)

The riders were headed west and someone stuck there hand out to say they were slowing, the rider behind did not see it and was watching something else. A broken helmet and probably some serious shoulder damage and an ambulance were the outcome.

I see other groups of some really could club riders and they move along at 20+ mph without any problem. It is beyond me why people think that riding a bike length off someone's rear wheel that you do not know and have never ridden with is safe, or perhaps saying that you are slowing can be heard above the noise of the group and the wind.

Keep the shiny side up. :banana:

[Karl Lee]

I understand what your mean but lots of clubs offer slower rides, say a pace of 12 mph, then you can go up from there to 14-16 mph and so on just to learn etiquette, improve conditioning and strength, and meet new people. BTW, the faster rides and riders ride a lot closer than one bike length! Accidents do happen though as you have experienced.

[toaster]

What exactly is Peloton Fever?

I may have it, atmo.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . immediately and everybody takes off like scalded cats. It's amusing when it's a century. There's usually no way those guys will be able to hold that pace for 100 miles and, sure enough, most of them don't. It's fun to pass them later in the ride . . . :rolleyes:

BBD

[Mud]

It does not seem to matter. We can hold our own with the 15mph rides and can climb any of the hills. The accidents also happen on the 12mph rides which is what I think this one was.

[Kevan]

and trust. People know how I behave and I know how they do. Throw a new kid in from the block, a wary eye is given him until we can read his actions.

Riding with a group, a rider is responsible for maintaining his line and communicating. Some folk are better at it than others.

[Michael Maddox]

A 15mph "peloton" is a little ridiculous, imho.

I think riding with stronger, more experienced riders would be a good place to start, though NOT always.

I don't like group rides because of the total disregard of common sense and traffic regulations. 4 or 5 is fun. 15 or 20 is generally an accident waiting to happen.

[Mud]

We don't go. Being a rider capable of of riding in a large group takes years of practice. Ridng at 15mph and being in a 15mph group ride is a whole different issue. We ride almost every day. I would like to keep it that way.

Your point is excellent. Small groups are a place to start to learn with experienced people. The few group rides we did in earlier years started out with the right intent and 20 miles into 25 mile rides Peleton Fever hit and we would just drop off the back.

Our riding is our riding. We will not change what we do. It is all about having fun. My only point was that I have seen too many of these all for the same reasons, not enough experience/skill and lack of paying attention.

[jharsha]

Reminds me of what happened in TOSRV last year. It was early on the first day and I was in a nice group of 12-15 riders and we were cruising along at 24-25mph with very smooth trade offs. We caught up a couple riders who then jumped on-- no problem so far. After riding a while things started getting a little skittish. I was working my way back from from the front about mid-pack and was alongside one of the riders we had just picked up. I said hello and he was very pleasant- he then said "Wow we sure are going fast! I've NEVER ridden in a paceline before."

It looked like a bomb went off! People were sprinting out front and braking like crazy to put some space around this guy. He looked at me and asked what happened. I replied in the friendliest tone I could that this was probably not the place or speed to learn to paceline. I suggested that we drop off the back with his friend and I would try and help him learn the art. He was happy as a clam! We rode together for another 30 miles or so and he was "getting it".

I think that was my good deed for the day and I enjoyed doing it.

[Blue Jays]

"...This was a slow ride. It does not seem to matter. We can hold our own with the 15mph rides and can climb any of the hills. Accidents also happen on the 12mph rides which is what I think this one was..."Now I have this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhkJBBTBA4M&feature=related) in my head! :D

[nm87710]

:beer: The accidents also happen on the 12mph rides which is what I think this one was.


Thanks for the giggles...I sorry :crap:

Last time I saw a 12mph group ride was at polo bike match. Yes, they fell down and crashed into one another alot too but it might have had something to do with having a beer in one hand and a croquet malet in the other :beer:

IMO, faster/harder riding yields smaller groups with better skills. Wittling a large group down to a half dozen riders who know how to play the game makes for some fun. :banana:

[Ti Designs]

I read these posts where people warn about the dangers of group rides and it just makes me laugh.

If you know nothing about playing piano, and you sit down in front of one and start playing, you'll probably get noise. So from this we can conclude that a piano is just a loud, noisy box of strings, right?

There's this assumption that cycling is a sport without basic skills - it's like riding a bike, you never forget. Really, most people never learn, so there's little to forget - they just don't know that. Why would anyone assume group riding skills are instinctive? here's a news flash, you weren't born knowing how to walk, it's just normal to take a few years to learn.

Every time the subject of group riding comes up, most of the responses come from people who clearly don't do group rides, can't do group rides or are scared to death of them. The concept of "only ride with people you know" comes up every single time. This would explain why in three years of trying I've not gotten more than 4 forum members together for a ride. It would also explain why so many people suck at it. The basic rules of a group ride are simple. Each individual is responsible for showing up with the skills needed - drafting, contact and the understanding of how pacelines work and the various ways they can be used. Rider communication should handle the differences between the understood rules from one group to the next. Leave the ego at home. Once you have this, a group can form from total strangers and work perfectly. Here's a little tip: If you've spent the time to lean the skills and understand how it all works, it's easy to tell who hasn't. Spend the first few minutes with any new group just watching who does what.

As for the pace of rides, most people don't have a clue. Group rides should be faster than individual rides, at least the way I understand drafting they should be... But then most riders don't get the point of the paceline and they have the advantage of having their eyes mounted in the front of their head. Riders get to the front and sit there while the speed drops to that of a single rider while the whole group behind taps their fingers waiting for this idiot to pull off. The guy in front doesn't know this, his effort seems high and he/she only sees what's in front of them. Think of fast pacelines as doing anarobic intervals, you can push yourself above your AT for maybe 30 seconds, then you're going to need some recovery time below your AT. Well, if you have 4 people in a paceline and drafting saves 30%, the rider in front can be 10% over while the riders tucked in can be going the same speed in recovery mode at 20% under, and the whole line travels at the speed one person could only sustain for a very short period. If a rider sits on the front for 10 minutes, they may feel the same effort, but the whole group has slowed to the point where the group ride no longer makes sense.

I don't seem much of a learning structure for teaching group riding skills, which may explain why most group rides around here turn into pissing matches. Few coaches ever show up on rides (if you go strictly by the USACycling coaching certification program, there's no reason to think that a coach knows anything about group riding - it's just not required) and few experienced riders are going to take the amount of time to teach the subject well. Many clubs run clinics, but that's worth about as much as a weekend PhD program. As a coach who does ride with my clients (how else do you teach these things???), I've found I can make it cost effective by putting together groups who can learn skills together. I have a number of groups that go out at set times during the week, the cost of coaching is a fraction of what it would be on an individual basis, and the group dynamics make learning that much better. The riders don't have to be matched, in fact it's probably better if they're not. Pacelines are a matter of going fast while sharing the work - nothing in that says that it has to be equal. Teaching the stronger riders who to keep weaker riders in does more for group rides than any individual's strength ever could. In fact, I've had the best luck starting out with weaker riders because they are forced to learn techniques that keep them in the group where the stronger riders use their strengths, which don't always hold up when they get into faster groups.

Lastly, every group has it's own rules, keep in mind that these rules aren't carved in stone at the great temple of cycling. If you ride with others, keep in mind that their rules may be a bit different. If you have clear reasons for doing what you do, you can argue for doing things that way. If it's a matter of "we do things this way", who died and made you king? The other day I managed to start a bit of a conflict within a group ride because I made contact and moved another rider off her line as I pulled through in a paceline. That rider is one of my students and she's perfectly comfortable with contact, but others in the group insisted that was "dangerous as hell". I've always felt that it's more dangerous to not be comfortable with rider to rider contact within the group, but what do I know?

[Elefantino]

I read these posts where people warn about the dangers of group rides and it just makes me laugh.

If you know nothing about playing piano, and you sit down in front of one and start playing, you'll probably get noise. So from this we can conclude that a piano is just a loud, noisy box of strings, right?

There's this assumption that cycling is a sport without basic skills - it's like riding a bike, you never forget. Really, most people never learn, so there's little to forget - they just don't know that. Why would anyone assume group riding skills are instinctive? here's a news flash, you weren't born knowing how to walk, it's just normal to take a few years to learn.

Every time the subject of group riding comes up, most of the responses come from people who clearly don't do group rides, can't do group rides or are scared to death of them. The concept of "only ride with people you know" comes up every single time. This would explain why in three years of trying I've not gotten more than 4 forum members together for a ride. It would also explain why so many people suck at it. The basic rules of a group ride are simple. Each individual is responsible for showing up with the skills needed - drafting, contact and the understanding of how pacelines work and the various ways they can be used. Rider communication should handle the differences between the understood rules from one group to the next. Leave the ego at home. Once you have this, a group can form from total strangers and work perfectly. Here's a little tip: If you've spent the time to lean the skills and understand how it all works, it's easy to tell who hasn't. Spend the first few minutes with any new group just watching who does what.

As for the pace of rides, most people don't have a clue. Group rides should be faster than individual rides, at least the way I understand drafting they should be... But then most riders don't get the point of the paceline and they have the advantage of having their eyes mounted in the front of their head. Riders get to the front and sit there while the speed drops to that of a single rider while the whole group behind taps their fingers waiting for this idiot to pull off. The guy in front doesn't know this, his effort seems high and he/she only sees what's in front of them. Think of fast pacelines as doing anarobic intervals, you can push yourself above your AT for maybe 30 seconds, then you're going to need some recovery time below your AT. Well, if you have 4 people in a paceline and drafting saves 30%, the rider in front can be 10% over while the riders tucked in can be going the same speed in recovery mode at 20% under, and the whole line travels at the speed one person could only sustain for a very short period. If a rider sits on the front for 10 minutes, they may feel the same effort, but the whole group has slowed to the point where the group ride no longer makes sense.

I don't seem much of a learning structure for teaching group riding skills, which may explain why most group rides around here turn into pissing matches. Few coaches ever show up on rides (if you go strictly by the USACycling coaching certification program, there's no reason to think that a coach knows anything about group riding - it's just not required) and few experienced riders are going to take the amount of time to teach the subject well. Many clubs run clinics, but that's worth about as much as a weekend PhD program. As a coach who does ride with my clients (how else do you teach these things???), I've found I can make it cost effective by putting together groups who can learn skills together. I have a number of groups that go out at set times during the week, the cost of coaching is a fraction of what it would be on an individual basis, and the group dynamics make learning that much better. The riders don't have to be matched, in fact it's probably better if they're not. Pacelines are a matter of going fast while sharing the work - nothing in that says that it has to be equal. Teaching the stronger riders who to keep weaker riders in does more for group rides than any individual's strength ever could. In fact, I've had the best luck starting out with weaker riders because they are forced to learn techniques that keep them in the group where the stronger riders use their strengths, which don't always hold up when they get into faster groups.

Lastly, every group has it's own rules, keep in mind that these rules aren't carved in stone at the great temple of cycling. If you ride with others, keep in mind that their rules may be a bit different. If you have clear reasons for doing what you do, you can argue for doing things that way. If it's a matter of "we do things this way", who died and made you king? The other day I managed to start a bit of a conflict within a group ride because I made contact and moved another rider off her line as I pulled through in a paceline. That rider is one of my students and she's perfectly comfortable with contact, but others in the group insisted that was "dangerous as hell". I've always felt that it's more dangerous to not be comfortable with rider to rider contact within the group, but what do I know?
A lot. Good post.

[Tom]

I agree with you - and one thing I particularly noticed is your comment about stronger riders keeping weaker riders in. I would imagine that's a good thing to be able to do because sometimes you need numbers toward the end, no?

Going back to the first post - in my opinion the guy in back needs to keep his eyes open and pay attention and the guy in front can't just assume because they said something they can then go and slam on the brakes. Perhaps that's not exactly what happened but I see that happen sometimes.

The fastest long ride I did wound up with a group of nine, one guy stronger than hell, a couple other strong people and then the rest like me. I found I was way more mentally tired than physically tired when we were done just because my attention was so very focused for five hours straight. I had never ridden with any of those people before but pretty quickly you could get their tendencies, you just had to watch what the hell was going on.

[Mud]

Much depends on whether people are willing to take the time to help. Store rides are usually mixed and scary, just not for us. We would love to do a nice group ride. We are reasonably social people. But many skills take a long time to master.

I used to teach tennis for a living in BB Dave's area. I don't care how good you are as an athlete. Skills learned at an early age are irreplaceable. I could take lessons from Ti from now til death and I would never be 100th of his skill level. I think the important thing is to recognize that and not put oneself and others in harm's way. That is the only point.

Insofar as the comment about 12 mph group rides, that is real. People only seem to remember the times they were at 17 mph, not when they were crawling up a long hill. But clubs have rides and the speeds are posted. I would never argue.

I watch the Colavita and other teams do their rides and it is nice to watch even tho they go by so fast. I can appreciate the skills even tho they are not my own.

[Steelhead]

Reminds me of what happened in TOSRV last year. It was early on the first day and I was in a nice group of 12-15 riders and we were cruising along at 24-25mph with very smooth trade offs. We caught up a couple riders who then jumped on-- no problem so far. After riding a while things started getting a little skittish. I was working my way back from from the front about mid-pack and was alongside one of the riders we had just picked up. I said hello and he was very pleasant- he then said "Wow we sure are going fast! I've NEVER ridden in a paceline before."

It looked like a bomb went off! People were sprinting out front and braking like crazy to put some space around this guy. He looked at me and asked what happened. I replied in the friendliest tone I could that this was probably not the place or speed to learn to paceline. I suggested that we drop off the back with his friend and I would try and help him learn the art. He was happy as a clam! We rode together for another 30 miles or so and he was "getting it".

I think that was my good deed for the day and I enjoyed doing it.

Good for you - a lot of people would have just given that guy the serious stink eye and never helped him to learn what he was doing. I learned single and double pace line rising from some masters club guys that took time to take a bunch of us juniors out a way long time ago. They helped us and coached us. I feel good in a bunch as long as it is obvious that everybody knows what they are doing, and you can't tell that by the kind of bike someone is riding either. Good stuff. :)

[bzbvh5]

What exactly is Peloton Fever?

I may have it, atmo.

Answer: Trying to win the Yellow Jersey when there is no jersey to be had.

The group I ride with (the donut ride, 14mph) we ride wheel to wheel and stay in line, different people take a pull, and everyone shouts out warnings. Newbies are politely shown the etiquette and they catch on quickly without being told. They may have questions and we answer them all. The 5 years I have been doing this ride there has been 1 single person wreck. Someone got a wheel stuck in a groove in the road.

The 18mph ride with the more experience riders about once a month has a pile up with broken arms, bikes and collar bones. They all seem to be trying to work their way to the front. At stop lights, some will come from the back and weasel their way into the front where there is no room for them. Apparently, being left behind at the light is a sin no one wants to commit.

[benb]

Once again Ed is preaching the gospel.... just how the heck do you get people to stop the insanity.

The ride I occassionally go on averages ~20-21mph. But all these bad behaviors are still rampant to the Nth degree.

It drives me bonkers.. most of the people are fairly smooth and it's not *super* dangerous, but none of them understand that 5 minutes is not an appropriate amount of time to pull the group.

The speed yo-yos like crazy.. every time someone pulls off it jumps up to 26-30mph briefly, before slowly winding down to 20-21mph, then the guy finally cracks, peels off, and the next guy explodes.

The other thing that drives me bonkers is rather then working their way back when people pull off, they kill themselves to try and stay with the advancing side of the paceline. As a result they never form up with the people behind them, denying the guys working their way back the chance to recover on retreating side of the paceline... which of course also forces the guy behind them to take a longer pull then is probably necessary, cause he can't pull off due to the guy racing him to his left.

Just a question of how you bring it up without looking like an ass. My honest desire is to pick some of the slower people and try to make a second group that follows 50 yards behind the lead group if the slower folks would turn out to be more willing to try to ride correctly. I'm sure it'd make them feel great if they could hang on to the whole ride when pacelining correctly.. cause as it is the group will leave with 25, and finish with 5.

Only issue is if it doesn't work I don't necessarily know all the routes and I wouldn't want to get the slower folks lost.. but then they always find their way back anyway, and even though I don't know all the routes, I generally always know the way home.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . .with significant numbers of people I don't know, then I try to hang back for a while and see what the dynamics are. Around here I don't often have to do that anymore. Partly that's because I don't do many club rides--by necessity and desire I usually end up riding with anywhere from 1-5 friends and we all know each other's riding style pretty well.

But if I'm traveling and go with totally new people I've learned it's best to watch and learn. That came in handy at times when I visited Kansas City. You can do a group ride every night of the week there, and there are a few I learned not to go to again. Either they would go careening through the city like they were racing for money, or the group was just plain not welcoming to outsiders. Either way, I'm out . . .

BBD

[toaster]

It cracks me up to see the term "Peloton Fever" used but not defined in this context of group riding.

Going for the yellow jersey?

What must really be the issue, and it's never any different, is that in most group rides there is no cohesion and the likelihood of mishap is at an all time high because individuals don't know what to do.

Obviously, Ti Designs knows what he's talking about. One has to wonder when one looks to the skies and sees a flock of migrating birds in formation and yet human beings with large brains can't manage to ride their bikes with others and get the same economy for the energy used.


The difference has to be that birds are dumb and nature is omniscient. The birds simply have no ego, no reason to beat the other, and simply adjust their effort to match the others and sit in the draft without thinking.

To ride better in a group a bicyclist would have to consider what is best for the others and ride with a certain effort and ride just a bit harder in the front. Instead, we get the people who either go too hard when it's their turn, or worse, accelerate a bit then slow again below the pace that was once established. This is mostly due to ignorance combined with ego or stupidity.

[bhungerford]

well i haven't been in a real paceline/group ride in a long time, but as i remember it, i think you can prevent yo-yo speeds with your computer, that's what i would do anyways, as the pace got established and it was my pull i'd just make sure i kept the speed the same as it was while back in the line. take my pull and then drift back for my recovery.

So it probably does come down to big egos and half wheeling....

[Fixed]

bro ride in a fast group then ride the same course again to see what you missed
just about everything
cheers imho

[BumbleBeeDave]

bro ride in a fast group then ride the same course again to see what you missed
just about everything
cheers imho

. . . when I lived in Tulsa and has just gotten my Vitus, which would probably make it the summer of '85. I wanted to go see what a "group ride" was like and unfortunately the one I chose was the local racing club. There were maybe half a dozen guys there. They were not particularly welcoming, but took me out and I spent the next 15-20 miles pedaling as hard as I could, out of breath, and seeing nothing but the derailleur of the guy in front of me. When I finally dropped off the back the last guy looked back, but they didn't wait and obviously didn't care about whether I was OK or not. Welcome, Newbie . . . I rode the 15-20 back home wondering if this was all there was to a "group ride" and deciding that if it was, then I would just ride alone. Ever since then, I have a low tolerance for "snotty group" dynamics. But there are plenty of friends and others to ride with who apparently share my viewpoint . . .

BBD

[nm87710]

[QUOTE=toaster]... human beings with large brains can't manage to ride their bikes with others and get the same economy for the energy used. [QUOTE]

I see a full fairing recumbent in your future... :rolleyes:

[toaster]

[QUOTE=toaster]... human beings with large brains can't manage to ride their bikes with others and get the same economy for the energy used. [QUOTE]

I see a full fairing recumbent in your future... :rolleyes:

Maybe in YOUR future, not mine.

[nm87710]

[QUOTE=nm87710][QUOTE=toaster]... human beings with large brains can't manage to ride their bikes with others and get the same economy for the energy used.

Maybe in YOUR future, not mine.


Those flocks of migrating birds you referenced...by chance are they African or European swallows?? :)

[taylorj]

bro ride in a fast group then ride the same course again to see what you missed
just about everything
cheers imho
+ 1. You rule Fixed!

[Kevan]

I'm feeling terrific and am pounding out the route pretty much on my own (not that I'm going to win any races) and eventually decide to slow down the last 10 or so miles and wait for my pals to come up from behind. What happens next is nothing more than a undisciplined mob rather than anything resembling a paceline. One guy is up on the grass and weeds passing me on the right while the others pass to the left. He just makes it back to the pavement. Amidst the crowd is my pal and so I jump on. Doesn't take long to figure this group is behaving like a group of cowboys galloping their horses towards the town saloon on a Saturday night. All that was missing was the shooting of pistols into the air. Five miles left of this ride, let's raise us some hell! There was virtually no talent, just a get there first attitude. I tried once breaking off the front and clearing myself from the scene, but the traffic and road intersections made that impossible. I dropped back...WAY! back.

"Each individual is responsible for showing up with the skills needed - drafting, contact and the understanding of how pacelines work and the various ways they can be used. Rider communication should handle the differences between the understood rules from one group to the next. Leave the ego at home. Once you have this, a group can form from total strangers and work perfectly."

Oh, if it only would happen.

[fiamme red]

Kevan, was that on the Bloomin' Metric? I've witnessed stupid behavior like that the two times I did it, which was why I decided not to do it again this year.

[Acotts]

Kevan, was that on the Bloomin' Metric? I've witnessed stupid behavior like that the two times I did it, which was why I decided not to do it again this year.

There are about 3000 riders at the Blooming Metric. If you cant find someone you feel comfortable being in a pace line with; that is your fault.

Or maybe you should change your expectations a little when you notice about 1/3 of them on hybrids and mountain bikes. Or, if you see a gaggle of riders with their knees pointing straight out, 5 abreast, wobbling left and right, you pass them quickly and never see them again. Sort of like what you do on any training ride or commute.

Anyways, I dont think the paceline is that complicated. You stay on the person's wheel. You try to keep the speed as consistant as possible and you yell warnings and point at pot holes. Not very complicated. It just requires lots of concentration and effort.

Some of you sound like you need a trained domestique in order to get within 100 feet of another biker. Perhaps if you learned to relax a little the paceline would not be so timid.

[fiamme red]

Some of you sound like you need a trained domestique in order to get within 100 feet of another biker. Perhaps if you learned to relax a little the paceline would not be so timid.True story: I was waiting for a friend at a Bloomin' Metric rest stop, about 20 miles into the ride. I was just about to leave, so I was straddling my bike. A big oaf (200+ lbs.) arrives at the rest stop, pulls up right next to me, and as he's dismounting, trips and falls, with his bike, on top of me and my bike. Result: I was pretty badly bruised and my rear wheel (Campagnolo Omega rim) was wrecked. He muttered an apology and then was lost in the crowd. I had to be sagged back to the finish.

[Acotts]

True story: I was waiting for a friend at a Bloomin' Metric rest stop, about 20 miles into the ride. I was just about to leave, so I was straddling my bike. A big oaf (200+ lbs.) arrives at the rest stop, pulls up right next to me, and as he's dismounting, trips and falls, with his bike, on top of me and my bike. Result: I was pretty badly bruised and my rear wheel (Campagnolo Omega rim) was wrecked. He muttered an apology and then was lost in the crowd. I had to be sagged back to the finish.


Huh...i dont know what to say.

...That really sucks.

I am sorry that happened.

[Acotts]

I hope that you accept the fact that you expirience is not representative of the majority of expiriences in that event. I will say that there were certainly a few hundred folks out there that I would not get within ten feet of.

But I simply just passed them.

[keno]

prevents you from knowing one of the key indicators of group experience level - the warmup. The very best riders ease into it, the very worst sometimes need to establish just how bad they are right at the start. If folks aren't interested in taking care of their own bodies, they sure as ***** ain't gonna be worried about mine.

keno

[Kevan]

Kevan, was that on the Bloomin' Metric? I've witnessed stupid behavior like that the two times I did it, which was why I decided not to do it again this year.

That's why I rode the ride pert-much on my own. Occasionally, I'd ride quietly behind a couple guys who would work their way past me but then would settle down to the point I would have to pass them. I spent a good amount of time yoo-yooing a sizable group around the reservoir. They couldn't remain consistent so I kept passing them only to motivate them enough to pass me again. They were pretty harmless so I enjoyed an occasional breather hanging with their group. Eventually, I got to thinking about my own pals, pulled up to some coasting and soft pedalling,eventually parking myself outside the last food stop and waited there until I grew impatient and started my slow ride again ,waiting some more time, until eventually one showed up. He and I hung back from the cowboys and shook our heads.

Knowing how this event is played, I find my own rhythm, my own ride, meet my pals at the terrific food stops, or don't. I figure we are all one big party, that you never really ride totally alone. I don't get too bent out of shape. If I find a paceline that works then terrific. If I don't...then terrific.

You can't spit on what was a wonderful morning to ride.

[Blue Jays]

"...I was waiting for a friend at a Bloomin' Metric rest stop, about 20 miles into the ride. I was just about to leave, so I was straddling my bike. A big oaf (200+ lbs.) arrives at the rest stop, pulls up right next to me, and as he's dismounting, trips and falls, with his bike, on top of me and my bike. Result: I was pretty badly bruised and my rear wheel (Campagnolo Omega rim) was wrecked. He muttered an apology and then was lost in the crowd. I had to be sagged back to the finish..."Bummer. Your wheel wasn't immediately recognized as wrecked? What a lousy way for the ride to finish. Coupled with the fact that he escaped without paying for a new wheel.

[palincss]

Every time the subject of group riding comes up, most of the responses come from people who clearly don't do group rides, can't do group rides or are scared to death of them. The concept of "only ride with people you know" comes up every single time. This would explain why in three years of trying I've not gotten more than 4 forum members together for a ride. It would also explain why so many people suck at it. The basic rules of a group ride are simple. Each individual is responsible for showing up with the skills needed - drafting, contact and the understanding of how pacelines work and the various ways they can be used. Rider communication should handle the differences between the understood rules from one group to the next. Leave the ego at home. Once you have this, a group can form from total strangers and work perfectly.

So, for you "group ride" is synonymous with pace lines?

[Ti Designs]

So, for you "group ride" is synonymous with pace lines?

Depends on the group. My Friday ride is a pure social ride, the tight group is all about talking, not drafting. When there's an emphasis on speed it becomes a paceline ride. Most of the time it's a little of both.

The question sounds a lot like the classic "I don't race" or "I just ride for fun" sort of reaction to the suggestion of learning something used in racing. My reply to that (if that is the case) is simple: There's no down side to having skills. They don't weigh anything, they can't make anything less fun, they aren't taxable... Learning how to ride in a paceline means you can go fast (some would call that fun), not learning means when others form a paceline you get dropped (few would call that fun). Being comfortable making contact with another rider means being able to relax in a group and have fun, not learning means fearing for your life in any group setting (have you read many of the posts about group rides?) The bottom line is that the guys who look relaxed and comfortable on a bike are the same ones with the skills to ride in a group or paceline. They can ride alone, they can ride with a group, they can go fast, they can go slow... If there's a down side to having skills, please point it out to me 'cause I don't see it.

[fiamme red]

Bummer. Your wheel wasn't immediately recognized as wrecked? What a lousy way for the ride to finish. Coupled with the fact that he escaped without paying for a new wheel.My knee and hip were bleeding, so I hobbled over to find someone with a first aid kit. After I took care of that, I went back to my bike to continue the ride and realized that my rear wheel wouldn't spin.

Sound Cyclists used to run a century in September called the "Harvest Ride." It was much more sparsely attended than the Bloomin' Metric and I really enjoyed it the three times I did it.

[T.J.]

If there's a down side to having skills, please point it out to me 'cause I don't see it.


+1

I hear people all the time that refuse to do pacelines because its " to dangerous". I honestly do not get that mentality and I think people that refuse to paceline are missing out on one of cyclings finest arts.
I was racing last weekend near Chatanooga when a break got off the front on a three mile climbthat came at the 15mile mark. The remaing pack got strung out pretty bad on the climb, I made it to the top with a group of six and we quickly formed a paceline and the chace was on. We kept catching and swallowing up riders along the way and at one point we were up to close to thirty riders working in unison to pull back the leaders. That to me is a thing of beauty. By the end we were down to a group of 12 as the pace heated up and riders got popped. We ended up driving a hard paceline for a little over 40 miles non stop with no incident. Point is I ended up with a top 20 instead of 70th thanks to the paceline atmo :beer:

[Fixed]

I think ti said something like this

what do you call it when 4 cats ride their bikes together ? a race
it does not matter who they are imho :beer:

[mikki]

well i haven't been in a real paceline/group ride in a long time, but as i remember it, i think you can prevent yo-yo speeds with your computer, that's what i would do anyways, as the pace got established and it was my pull i'd just make sure i kept the speed the same as it was while back in the line. take my pull and then drift back for my recovery.

So it probably does come down to big egos and half wheeling....

This post was of particular help to me. Never can figure how to keep the pack right with me without going out too far in front or slowing them down too much.
Thanks!! I'll try it this weekend.

Also, Ti Designs and jharsha's posts about helping others in pacelines were very infomative and appreciated.

[Volant]

Knowing when the situation isn't right for you, and doing something about it, like dropping back, is as much a part of group riding as is knowing how to ride in a group.
I do like how one club in town cuts right-to-the-point on its website. It says something like, "Know the route, as the ride is aggressive and you may get dropped. These rides average 24-26 mph. We won't wait for you. If you're not familiar with riding in a group or paceline, join our Tuesday night beginner group rides to learn the ropes before moving up."

[Kevan]

there's no consistency to their pedal stroke. The event isn't a race; there is no discipline to speak of. Anyone can basically do whatever they want. It's here that a basic hunting trait seems to take over some of us. We see a target up ahead, we reel him in, we state our dominance by passing them, and then we relish the moment by sitting up and relaxing out front. Maybe it's youthful blood or simply stretching out our spring weather legs, but I actually think it is lacking the concept in maintaining one’s pace and understanding the dynamics of a group. It's somewhat rude, isn't it, to pass someone in a hard-fought one-sided battle only to then relax, forcing the conquered now to take corrective action passing the hunter? What’s up with that? Should I be instructing those young bucks that when they pass me, that they stay out front unless they want me to join in their games? It's like playing golf somewhat, isn't it? Playing through, but uninvited-like? I guess I've resigned myself to the situation as it regularly stands on organized rides such as these.

I'm by no means the paradigm of the quintessential cyclist. I’m not a cat racer and I don’t do double centuries. I’ve never removed or installed a headset. I feel myself being slower this season, heavier too. But I do some things right. I hold my line. I’m not jerky and uneven while pedaling. I don't throw my bike back into your front wheel when I go to stand on a climb. I communicate to protect others. I try to be consistent and most importantly…predictable. I even been told that I’m a pleasure to be out front in a paceline, and no…that didn’t come from Sandy. I don't have a bike computer, but my senses are honed well enough for me to try to stay even-keeled in my effort and speed. I will admit that I’m grunting up steep hills right now, but I make it a point to either be far to the right or far to the left, dropping back paceline style so others can pass.

For what it’s worth, I try to set a quiet example.

[JonB]

I've never understood on group rides how someone at the front just burys themselves to go a certain pace, yet won't rotate out.

I've never understood on group rides how someone can be on the front, leading a charge of 20+ guys riding at 20+ MPH and doesn't point out potholes, sand, etc.

I've never understood on group rides how the group can approach an intersection, obstacle, whatever and not yell "SLOWING!"


The first situation, I just watch and chuckle... then attack when they look quite pooped. The second situation, if I see that someone doesn't point out a pothole, I'll quite loudly inform them that they need to do so. In the third situation, I'm the guy yelling "SLOWING!"

[palincss]

Depends on the group. My Friday ride is a pure social ride, the tight group is all about talking, not drafting. When there's an emphasis on speed it becomes a paceline ride. Most of the time it's a little of both.

The question sounds a lot like the classic "I don't race" or "I just ride for fun" sort of reaction to the suggestion of learning something used in racing. My reply to that (if that is the case) is simple: There's no down side to having skills. They don't weigh anything, they can't make anything less fun, they aren't taxable... Learning how to ride in a paceline means you can go fast (some would call that fun), not learning means when others form a paceline you get dropped (few would call that fun). Being comfortable making contact with another rider means being able to relax in a group and have fun, not learning means fearing for your life in any group setting (have you read many of the posts about group rides?) The bottom line is that the guys who look relaxed and comfortable on a bike are the same ones with the skills to ride in a group or paceline. They can ride alone, they can ride with a group, they can go fast, they can go slow... If there's a down side to having skills, please point it out to me 'cause I don't see it.

I rode in pacelines in the early 90s. I'm no longer interested, and have no desire to ever ride in a paceline again.

As for a downside to having skills - I used to be able to roll a cigarette with one hand, and light strike-anywhere wooden matches with my thumb. Those skills have been useless for me for almost 40 years.

I ride with groups all the time with no pacelining. It's nice. You don't have to give up riding with others if you don't want to ride in pacelines.

[bironi]

I readily admit that I love to suck a wheel, but it has to be a good wheel. I try to avoid the front end of group rides where almost everyone is oxygen deprived. This usually makes for bad decision making, and greater potential for serious crashes. And frankly this body is getting to old to take the beating.

My favorite rides are with my regular riding buddies on the same fixed gear inches. We hang on each others wheels on everything except steep climbs. When we want to relax and chat, we simply ride side by side.

What always amazes me in group rides is how many people are clueless about becoming a better rider. I have always looked for the best riders, and tried to model my riding on theirs. What I see most often is the less skilled riders trying to best those with skills far above their own. There are many riders that are stronger than I, but the stronger ones without the skills are the ones to be given a wide berth.

[T.J.]

I try to avoid the front end of group rides where almost everyone is oxygen deprived. This usually makes for bad decision making, and greater potential for serious crashes.


Interesting thought. I find the exact opposite to be true in the pack racing. It seems it tends to be the ones in the back of the pack that are on the rivet tryin to hold on that the greater potential for a crash is.

[trymorecowbell]

I've never understood on group rides how someone at the front just burys themselves to go a certain pace, yet won't rotate out.

I've never understood on group rides how someone can be on the front, leading a charge of 20+ guys riding at 20+ MPH and doesn't point out potholes, sand, etc.

I've never understood on group rides how the group can approach an intersection, obstacle, whatever and not yell "SLOWING!"


The first situation, I just watch and chuckle... then attack when they look quite pooped. The second situation, if I see that someone doesn't point out a pothole, I'll quite loudly inform them that they need to do so. In the third situation, I'm the guy yelling "SLOWING!"

1st situation: FYI, Some riders( a very small %) actually want to get a workout and prefer to minimize wheel suck. I've yet to see a training program that recommends sucking wheel to improve.

2nd & 3rd situations: 1st rule of peleton hierarchy - Can't lead from the back. Stay up there if ya wants to lead, change the route, call out ants in the road or yell slow, slower, slowest. Back seat wheel sucking whiners who love to pip guys usually get the Rodney Dangerfield treatment.

[Ti Designs]

1st situation: FYI, Some riders( a very small %) actually want to get a workout and prefer to minimize wheel suck. I've yet to see a training program that recommends sucking wheel to improve.

Motorpacing???

[T.J.]

Motorpacing???



yes :beer: one of the best workouts you can get IMHO

[Ti Designs]

I rode in pacelines in the early 90s. I'm no longer interested, and have no desire to ever ride in a paceline again.

I'm slow and lazy. If not for paceline rides my average speed would be a brisk running pace - what fun is that?

[JonB]

1st situation: FYI, Some riders( a very small %) actually want to get a workout and prefer to minimize wheel suck. I've yet to see a training program that recommends sucking wheel to improve.

The way I see it is that they're not on the front to get their "workout". They're just not bright enough to pull off. If they're so interested in getting their "workout" and wanting to ride on the front, why aren't they training solo?

2nd & 3rd situations: 1st rule of peleton hierarchy - Can't lead from the back. Stay up there if ya wants to lead, change the route, call out ants in the road or yell slow, slower, slowest. Back seat wheel sucking whiners who love to pip guys usually get the Rodney Dangerfield treatment.

The way I see it is that the first rule of peloton heirarchy on a training ride/group ride is good communication. If someone doesn't point out a major pothole and a bunch of guys stack it, well, they'll be getting more than the Rodney Dangerfield treatment.

[Ti Designs]

1st rule of peleton hierarchy - Can't lead from the back. Stay up there if ya wants to lead, change the route, call out ants in the road or yell slow, slower, slowest. Back seat wheel sucking whiners who love to pip guys usually get the Rodney Dangerfield treatment.

Funny you should bring up Rodney 'cause the way you lead from the back is with respect. A few years back there was a local ride I call the shark ride 'cause there were a few guys with some serious horsepower and a lot of smaller fish. When the sharks were lurking in the back the pace stayed mellow, when then started to move up things got interesting.

It's the guys who sit and watch who gain respect for the better riders. That respect keeps them from doing anything stupid. The guys who don't look around have no respect for the strength of the other riders. They may think they're leading the ride, but when the stronger riders take over they're the first ones off the back.

[Mud]

I'm slow and lazy. If not for paceline rides my average speed would be a brisk running pace - what fun is that?

We climb up Splitrock to see the Lamas. We climb Hardscrabble and wonder how anyone can afford the heating bills in some of the homes. We climb Diamond Spring to see how the donkeys are doing. We circle the airport twice to warm up and see how the Alpacas are doing. We climb Rockaway to check on Tony Llama who guards the sheep from the coyotes (yes that is his name). There seems to be a pattern here. As my boss says (former pro racer) "You see a lot more than I do". I also can't go nearly as fast as he does. I might take fast. There are just so many llamas to see.

[palincss]

I'm slow and lazy. If not for paceline rides my average speed would be a brisk running pace - what fun is that?

There's lots more interesting things to see on a bike ride than the a$$ of the guy in front of you.

[markie]

There's lots more interesting things to see on a bike ride than the a$$ of the guy in front of you.

Some people like ass! :butt:

[fiamme red]

We climb up Splitrock to see the Lamas. We climb Hardscrabble and wonder how anyone can afford the heating bills in some of the homes. We climb Diamond Spring to see how the donkeys are doing. We circle the airport twice to warm up and see how the Alpacas are doing. We climb Rockaway to check on Tony Llama who guards the sheep from the coyotes (yes that is his name). There seems to be a pattern here. As my boss says (former pro racer) "You see a lot more than I do". I also can't go nearly as fast as he does. I might take fast. There are just so many llamas to see.I've never seen the llamas. Are they on the road that goes to the "haunted" reservoir?

I have seen the alpacas at the Four Corners.

[rounder]

Good posts ti...thanks!!

[Ti Designs]

We climb up Splitrock to see the Lamas. We climb Hardscrabble and wonder how anyone can afford the heating bills in some of the homes. We climb Diamond Spring to see how the donkeys are doing...


That's just weird, I grew up in Wayne NJ and I know all those roads from 20 years ago. Do you know Otter Hole road in West Milford or Skyine drive in the ramapo mountains? memories from when I was fit and fast...

[Mud]

At the top of Splitrock where the pavement changes there is a corral that held two gelding llamas. I have not seen them since the Fall. I stopped a person walking a dog who said she had not seen them either. Since the climb is not my favorite, no llamas no more climbing that hill.

There are llamas at the alpaca farms. You can't miss Tony. He is really social and knows when you talk to him. Definitely the grand PooBah of the pasture.

I don't know Otter Hole. I used to MTB at Waywayanda quite a bit and also at Ramapo. Wife kept getting PI in Ramapo so that ended. I used to work in Wayne at the JCC on Ratzer Road. Definitely not a great experience since I moved to NJ to take that job.

I wish someone from the forum would stop us say "hello". We are hard to miss. :banana:

[trymorecowbell]

Motorpacing???

All right, but apart from the motorpacing, sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us? :)