Benefits of ceramic bearings?

[Delpo]

To the collected wisdom of the forum:

The Dura Ace 7800 10speed bottom bracket cups on my bike gave out. What are the benefits if any to replacing with ceramic?

I am a big guy (6'4" and 220lbs) and most of my riding is done in group rides at race like conditions.

Thanks in advance.

Delpo

[djg21]

To the collected wisdom of the forum:

The Dura Ace 7800 10speed bottom bracket cups on my bike gave out. What are the benefits if any to replacing with ceramic?

I am a big guy (6'4" and 220lbs) and most of my riding is done in group rides at race like conditions.

Thanks in advance.

Delpo


I just went through the same execise. I am also almost your size, and I opted for phil woods sealed steel bearings. I figured that the diminishing return with respect to performance didn't justify the cost (to me). Since Excel has the phil bearings on closeout for $39 (I bought cups too so Excel could press the bearings in for me), I figured I'd go that route. I've never had a problem with anything from phil woods.

[1centaur]

I have both ceramic and Phil BB replacements for some of my DA BBs. Phil is the way to go - cheaper and no worse than ceramics. We're talking about the kind of feel differences you might notice in back-to-back experiments but not by itself 3 months later anyway, though Phil is the only version I have thought, "wow, that feels pretty smooth" a few months later.

[musgravecycles]

atmo "Phil-it & phorget-it..."

[Ahneida Ride]

Phil

Is there an advantage to Ceramic bearings in a Stainless Steel race?
Need the race be ceramic too?

[Too Tall]

From the exposure I've had to exernal bearings both steel and ceramic the issue is quality dot period. The OEM steel external bearings from some companies are so pi## poor that they may as well have packed the cups with broken glass! Ceramic bearings are a case of something that never needed to happen...what we need are top motch steel spec. bearings. I know I'm not nuts?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . if you have the $$? They're lighter, harder, rounder, and more resistant to heat and corrosion. But will you notice the difference in power transfer? Probably not unless you do head-to-head experiments with a power meter. I also don't know how much weight exactly you would save with BB bearings. I got the ceramics for my Ksyriums mainly for the weight savings. I saw some ceramic bearing derailleur pulleys advertised the other day for $129. Definitely not sure THAT'S worth it . . .

BBD

[Bill Bove]

ceramic bearings are supposed to spin with less friction, so the faster a bearing spins-the more a reduction in friction will be of benifit. pulley bearings spin really, really fast, ergo ceramic pulleys should be of greater benifit than say ceramic headset bearings. in theory.

i have ceramic bearings in the BB of one bike but not in the BB of the other. i do notice a difference, i liken it to the feeling of a nice new chain and cassette. if they last longer, all the better.

i don't have anything better to spend my money on :rolleyes:

[Too Tall]

ceramic bearings are supposed to spin with less friction, so the faster a bearing spins-the more a reduction in friction will be of benifit. pulley bearings spin really, really fast, ergo ceramic pulleys should be of greater benifit than say ceramic headset bearings. in theory.

i have ceramic bearings in the BB of one bike but not in the BB of the other. i do notice a difference, i liken it to the feeling of a nice new chain and cassette. if they last longer, all the better.

i don't have anything better to spend my money on :rolleyes:

True enough Bill. Spend you FRNs on me :) I'll check out all these sill bearings for you and save you the worry.

[soulspinner]

From the exposure I've had to exernal bearings both steel and ceramic the issue is quality dot period. The OEM steel external bearings from some companies are so pi## poor that they may as well have packed the cups with broken glass! Ceramic bearings are a case of something that never needed to happen...what we need are top motch steel spec. bearings. I know I'm not nuts?

No. Good stainless is good enuff 4 all but 99.9percent.

[djg21]

From the exposure I've had to exernal bearings both steel and ceramic the issue is quality dot period. The OEM steel external bearings from some companies are so pi## poor that they may as well have packed the cups with broken glass! Ceramic bearings are a case of something that never needed to happen...what we need are top motch steel spec. bearings. I know I'm not nuts?


I've heard that ceramic bearings will polish the races, for what that's worth. The only reason I even considered the ceramic bearings is that they are said to be more imprevious to contaminants, and as external bearings on a BB are somewhat exposed, I thought this might make sense. As I don't spend lots of time riding in the rain, however, and since sealed bearings such as those sold by Phil are somewhat protected from the elements, that makes more sense to me, especially given the price differential.

I don't care about a few grams. I'm 6'3" and over 200lbs anyway. If I want to lose a couple of grams, I can chew some gatorgum and spit in a cup for a few minutes.

[gdw]

A lot of the OEM bearings are pure crap especially on some of the high zoot hubs.

[Ahneida Ride]

. . . I saw some ceramic bearing derailleur pulleys advertised the other day for $129. Definitely not sure THAT'S worth it . . .

BBD

But the Blue FSA Campy Pulleys look so Cool .... Eh ?

Yea I know ...... :rolleyes: :crap:


OK ... I am a sucker .....

[Ahneida Ride]

Incidently ... What are Enduro Bearings .... ? :confused:

Some manufactures (White Hubs) make a big deal of using Enduro's


and now that I have those Blue Campy FSA Ceramic Pulleys,
I'll drop T**2 and BBD faster then a Baked Potato. :p

Hey they were ONLY 100+ frn ..... :bike:

But they look so cool ? Right ???? Anybody? Can I get an Amen?

[Peter P.]

"Gear train AND bearing losses with a well-oiled chain absorb only 3%-5% of the power input. Because this is TRULY a minor factor affecting cycle speed, the chances for improvement are small compared to other losses." (Capitals are mine.)

"At speeds above 18mph, air resistance is more than 80% of the total (resistance)."

From, "Mechanical Factors Affecting the Speed of a Cycle" by Chester Kyle, 1986.

Ceramic bearings? You'd be better off putting your money in a slot machine.

[jemoryl]

The applications that ceramic bearings were developed for are a lot different than what we have in our bikes. I once worked in a lab where we needed to spin a disk at +10,000 rpm in a clean vacuum, sometimes at high temperatures (meaning no or special lubrication, less heat transfer to the surrounding gasses...) and we wound up using ceramic bearings. The ideal solution was a "mag lev" setup with no physical contact, but that was beyond our means. Maybe Zipp or someone is working on this?

Really, energy lost through friction in high quality bearings is such a tiny factor for cycle gear (do your hubs feel warm after you ride?) - and cearmic bearings only offer a small improvement in that area.

[Homebrew]

Incidently ... What are Enduro Bearings .... ? :confused:

Good stuff!

http://www.endurobearings.com/
http://www.enduroforkseals.com/

[BumbleBeeDave]

and now that I have those Blue Campy FSA Ceramic Pulleys,
I'll drop T**2 and BBD faster then a Baked Potato. :p


. . . but I just took delivery of my special shipment of Domina Vacanze zebra-striped bearings. you don't stand a chance! :p

BBD

[djg21]

. . . but I just took delivery of my special shipment of Domina Vacanze zebra-striped bearings. you don't stand a chance! :p

BBD

Stop. They're not yellow and black striped?

[Lifelover]

....

Ceramic bearings? You'd be better off putting your money in a slot machine.

+1000

I don't know for sure, but I can't imagine that Ceramic bearings could make any difference at all.

If a BB is having bearing issues, it about the design not the product.

[fierte_poser]

ceramic bearings are supposed to spin with less friction, so the faster a bearing spins-the more a reduction in friction will be of benifit. pulley bearings spin really, really fast, ergo ceramic pulleys should be of greater benifit than say ceramic headset bearings. in theory.

Maybe, but those fast spinning pulleys are under [essentially] *zero* load. Let's see, those pulleys a) line the chain up under the correct cog, and c) keep proper tension on the chain. Sounds like the perfect place for expensive bearings! :p

Oh, and $100 is apparently a bargain in this product segment:

http://txcyclesport.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=CB-CPS&Category_Code=

I would spend the extra $66.99 to get the *zero* friction pulley wheels, but that's just me. :rolleyes:

[Too Tall]

A lot of the OEM bearings are pure crap especially on some of the high zoot hubs.
THAT is exactly why I'm a bit peeved over this situation. By supplying sub par steel bearings and offering an "upgrade" it smells like bait and switch. Glad for Phil Wood...once again.

[jemoryl]

THAT is exactly why I'm a bit peeved over this situation. By supplying sub par steel bearings and offering an "upgrade" it smells like bait and switch. Glad for Phil Wood...once again.

Which 'high zoot' hubs have these lousy bearings? I have some pretty cheap hubs that seem to soldier on quite smoothly...

[El Chaba]

THAT is exactly why I'm a bit peeved over this situation. By supplying sub par steel bearings and offering an "upgrade" it smells like bait and switch. Glad for Phil Wood...once again.

I was reminded if THIS post that summed it up for me:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=435244&postcount=11

[Too Tall]

I was reminded if THIS post that summed it up for me:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=435244&postcount=11
Right on Sspielman speaks for me...I've got him on retainer ;)
jemoryl - I'm really refering to to external bottom brackets.

[William]

I was reminded if THIS post that summed it up for me:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=435244&postcount=11


Nail - hammer - head.

And not just on bike components either.




William

[HSG Racer]

Ceramic bearings in general will spin better than OEM steel bearings. But, they will also last longer and are more durable when compared to steel bearing and that’s a bigger advantage. I have been very happy with the Campy steel bearings but most steel bearings out there are not of the same quality.

I would suggest going with ceramic over phil wood since they are both the same price. If there were a large cost differential between the two then it may be hard to justify. But since the cost is the same, ceramic is the way to go. Try superflycycles.com for the best prices on ceramic BBs.

[Fixed]

bro if you are a cat that like the latest greatest stuff you can't be without go for it
imho
cheers

[jemoryl]

Ceramic bearings in general will spin better than OEM steel bearings. But, they will also last longer and are more durable when compared to steel bearing and that’s a bigger advantage. I have been very happy with the Campy steel bearings but most steel bearings out there are not of the same quality.

I would suggest going with ceramic over phil wood since they are both the same price. If there were a large cost differential between the two then it may be hard to justify. But since the cost is the same, ceramic is the way to go. Try superflycycles.com for the best prices on ceramic BBs.

It doesn't seem like ceramic bearings in cycling applications have been around long enough to establish the sort of track record that you hint at. The spin thing is a non-factor.

But people who go outside Campy/Shimano/Phil for the BBs are probably asking for trouble...

[saab2000]

Seems to me like there might be a Phil Wood outboard BB with some Campagnolo UT cranks in my future.

[staggerwing]

Forest/Trees

Saying ceramic is better than steel or stainless steel is as meaningless as picking a carbon frame over aluminum or steel.

For a loose bearing ball, you generally pick between grade 25 or 100, and material, high carbon steel vs 440c stainless steel. Sphericity (how close the finesses ball is to a perfect sphere) is 0.000025" for the grade 25, and 0.000100" for the grade 100. Diameter tolerances are pretty darned close, at around plus or minus 0.0005".

When you get into a precision bearing (a pre-made assembly of balls/rollers, retainers, inner and outer races, and perhaps a shield or seal), things get a little more complicated. First, you can go by ABEC grade (Annular bearing Engineers Committee); with higher being better. Most reasonable people would stop at ABEC 3 or 5. There is nothing that spins at a high enough RPM on a bike to warrant a higher grade. Next, you can pick carbon steel versus stainless steel, both for the races and balls. Then, pick whether you would like shielded or sealed. The former has lower drag, while the latter has much better protection against the elements. Finally, pick what you would like for lubrication.

Phils bearings aren't magic in any way. They have simply worked with their bearing supplier to come up with a combination of the above specifications optimized for cycling. They also happen to roll well, last a long time, and are fairly reasonable in cost. No snake oil whatsoever.

Take a look at McMaster.com, and type "bearing" into the search field. Start at page 1111, in their current catalog, and slowly work your way forward. Note how changes in specification affect price.

[WickedWheels]

I was reminded if THIS post that summed it up for me:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=435244&postcount=11

Just wondering (for those who think this is a giant conspiracy)...

Who exactly specs (or allows) lower quality bearings so that they can upsell everyone on ceramic bearings? I know it's not Shimano or Campy, as they don't offer ceramic options. Not to mention that they are just about the only companies out there that still use tradition bearings in hubs (with a good reason).

FSA? SRAM? Zipp? Perhaps... but those brands weren't in question here.

I'm not one to put a Shimano/Campy tattoo on myself. Those companies have their issues. Personally, I consider Campy Red to be a practical joke almost as funny as Shimano Saint Dual-Control levers. However, I have a hard time believing that these guys are spec'ing lower quality bearings on their top-of-the-line groups as a cost-saving measure.

[Delpo]

Thanks to all for the input. I'll give the Phil Wood's a try. Turning practical now, what do I need to do to execute the change? Can I purchase the bearings and use the same cups or do I also need to buy new cups?

Thanks again.

Delpo

[musgravecycles]

BTW, Phil-spec bearings are ABEC 10...
;)

Edit: You can reuse the cups. You'll need a bearing press though, both Phil and Enduro make one. Competitive Cyclist will install them for free if you buy the bearings from them:

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/road-bikes/product-components/2008-phil-wood-external-bottom-bracket-bearings-2712_19_TRUE.html

[zap]

For folks experiencing bearing failure, was the bb shell tapped and faced properly (width and parallel) prior to installing the external bearing cups?

[CNY rider]

Forest/Trees

Saying ceramic is better than steel or stainless steel is as meaningless as picking a carbon frame over aluminum or steel.

For a loose bearing ball, you generally pick between grade 25 or 100, and material, high carbon steel vs 440c stainless steel. Sphericity (how close the finesses ball is to a perfect sphere) is 0.000025" for the grade 25, and 0.000100" for the grade 100. Diameter tolerances are pretty darned close, at around plus or minus 0.0005".

When you get into a precision bearing (a pre-made assembly of balls/rollers, retainers, inner and outer races, and perhaps a shield or seal), things get a little more complicated. First, you can go by ABEC grade (Annular bearing Engineers Committee); with higher being better. Most reasonable people would stop at ABEC 3 or 5. There is nothing that spins at a high enough RPM on a bike to warrant a higher grade. Next, you can pick carbon steel versus stainless steel, both for the races and balls. Then, pick whether you would like shielded or sealed. The former has lower drag, while the latter has much better protection against the elements. Finally, pick what you would like for lubrication.

Phils bearings aren't magic in any way. They have simply worked with their bearing supplier to come up with a combination of the above specifications optimized for cycling. They also happen to roll well, last a long time, and are fairly reasonable in cost. No snake oil whatsoever.

Take a look at McMaster.com, and type "bearing" into the search field. Start at page 1111, in their current catalog, and slowly work your way forward. Note how changes in specification affect price.


Thanks, that's an excellent explanation.

[El Chaba]

Just wondering (for those who think this is a giant conspiracy)...

Who exactly specs (or allows) lower quality bearings so that they can upsell everyone on ceramic bearings? I know it's not Shimano or Campy, as they don't offer ceramic options. Not to mention that they are just about the only companies out there that still use tradition bearings in hubs (with a good reason).

FSA? SRAM? Zipp? Perhaps... but those brands weren't in question here.

I'm not one to put a Shimano/Campy tattoo on myself. Those companies have their issues. Personally, I consider Campy Red to be a practical joke almost as funny as Shimano Saint Dual-Control levers. However, I have a hard time believing that these guys are spec'ing lower quality bearings on their top-of-the-line groups as a cost-saving measure.


FSA AND SRAM have BB's with pretty pathetic bearing quality....

[Darrell]

No one has ever looked over their shoulder at their beaten opponent as they threw thier hands in the air and said
"Suck eggs fellas, I had ceramic bearings and you didn't"

Get out and ride your bikes more
get out and ride your bikes harder some times
stop eating so much crap food
get leaner
oh crikey, performance kick in !!!!!

[Louis]

I’ve considered getting something fancy, like a Phil Wood rear hub for my next wheel build (I’m an MA-40 / Open Pro type of guy) but it doesn’t make sense to sink $350 into a rear hub and have the ability to make the hub last forever, when eventually the rim wears out due to brake surface wear or pothole impact deformation, or whatever.

Something is designed optimally if all the constituent parts die at the about the same time, so Ultegra hubs are good enough for me… Although I did rebuild my current highest mileage rear hub a while back – by cleaning things out and replacing the bearings - and I have to say that I was disappointed in the results. Not as smooth a spin as I wanted. I guess until I see obvious pits on the cups or the MA-40 rim finally gives out, I’ll just keep riding it.

It costs me, what, 1 watt?

Louis

[Bradford]

Something is designed optimally if all the constituent parts die at the about the same time
Do you mean just like the Minister's one Hoss Shay?

http://www.grg.org/OneHossShay.htm

[RPS]

Louis, if your riding weight, mileage, bike, surface, etc… is such that an Ultegra hub lasts 5 years or more, then I agree with you that it would not make economic sense to spend twice as much to get 10 years out of a “fancy” high-cost hub. You’d have to do it to save weight, increase performance, or something else beyond durability.

On the other hand if I went through hubs every six months I’d easily invest twice as much to double its life expectancy. For my personal needs Ultegra is a great value since I’ve never worn one out. However, I'm guessing bigger guys who ride more and/or on rougher roads can justify more durable equipment easier than I can.

[markie]

I’ve considered getting something fancy, like a Phil Wood rear hub for my next wheel build (I’m an MA-40 / Open Pro type of guy) but it doesn’t make sense to sink $350 into a rear hub and have the ability to make the hub last forever, when eventually the rim wears out due to brake surface wear or pothole impact deformation, or whatever.


Louis


The phil wood geared hubs are super heavy, but if you want a super durable set-up you could pair it to a ceramic coated rim, possibly an open pro. I have a few miles on a fixed gear phil wood and ceramic open pro and and couldn't be happier.

[palincss]

. . . if you have the $$? They're lighter, harder, rounder, and more resistant to heat and corrosion. But will you notice the difference in power transfer? Probably not unless you do head-to-head experiments with a power meter. I also don't know how much weight exactly you would save with BB bearings. I got the ceramics for my Ksyriums mainly for the weight savings. I saw some ceramic bearing derailleur pulleys advertised the other day for $129. Definitely not sure THAT'S worth it . . .

BBD

At least, your wallet will be lighter.

[palincss]

I’ve considered getting something fancy, like a Phil Wood rear hub for my next wheel build (I’m an MA-40 / Open Pro type of guy) but it doesn’t make sense to sink $350 into a rear hub and have the ability to make the hub last forever, when eventually the rim wears out due to brake surface wear or pothole impact deformation, or whatever.


You mean you discard the hub when the rim wears out?

I'm on a mailing list with a lot of folks from the Pacific Northwest. Some of them wear rims out in 2 years. As they say, if you don't ride in the rain out there, you don't ride at all.

Are you seriously saying you wouldn't relace a wheel on a used hub?

[CNY rider]

You mean you discard the hub when the rim wears out?

I'm on a mailing list with a lot of folks from the Pacific Northwest. Some of them wear rims out in 2 years. As they say, if you don't ride in the rain out there, you don't ride at all.

Are you seriously saying you wouldn't relace a wheel on a used hub?


You beat me to it.
The rim is the "disposable" part of the wheel.
I have 2 sets of DT 240s hubs that I expect to be riding on long after their current rim sets wear out.

[Louis]

Are you seriously saying you wouldn't relace a wheel on a used hub?

Depends on how much life is left is in the hub. If the entire bearing system can be replaced (including all wear surfaces), sure, but to get that, say in a Phil, you have to spend a huge amount of money up front. Might as well spend a lot less and get a whole new hub to go with your new spokes and rim.

[WickedWheels]

FSA AND SRAM have BB's with pretty pathetic bearing quality....

LOL!!!

[musgravecycles]

Depends on how much life is left is in the hub. If the entire bearing system can be replaced (including all wear surfaces), sure, but to get that, say in a Phil, you have to spend a huge amount of money up front. Might as well spend a lot less and get a whole new hub to go with your new spokes and rim.


Are you kidding me?!?! Phil hubs last forever bro, I know of several pairs with approaching 70K. Hubs like this can be re-laced into new rims many times over...

[soulspinner]

+1