I shook Obama hand..

[gasman]

I'm on call at the hospital taking the stairs up to the 5th floor when someone says Obama is here. I stop at the 3rd floor because I see a secret service agent down the hall-he says Obama is just down the hall. So.. I see a group of nurses and a few docs and just a couple feet away there he is. I walked up and shook his hand-I did have on scrubs and my american flag scrub hat. I told one of the nurses that I don't wear lapel flags but I'm so patriotic I wear an American flag hat. The secret service guy next to us laughed. Senator Obama spoke very kindly to the nurses but I could only stay a couple of minutes so I missed much of what he said.
Still it was cool to shake hands briefly with someone who could potentially be the next President. I sure wouldn't want to be on the campaign trail-way to tiring.

And yes I have washed my hands, since I wash them at least 20 times a day at the hospital.

[Fixed]

cool he looks fit
cheers imho

[SoCalSteve]

cool he looks fit
cheers imho

Think he rides a Serotta?

Just askin'

Steve

PS: I am gonna vote for him either way (and this is not political)!

[gasman]

he's trim but I don't know if he's fit. How can you have time for anything like working out ?

I asked if he rode a Serotta-he said he has a Mevici on order with full DA.





Is this how rumors start ?



.

[gdw]

:p

[Kevan]

one of the nurses "Sweetie"?

Couple years back I was out rakin' the leaves and this here president and senator walk by and shake my hand. I had a spare rake, but they weren't too interested.

[Sandy]

one of the nurses "Sweetie"?

Couple years back I was out rakin' the leaves and this here president and senator walk by and shake my hand. I had a spare rake, but they weren't too interested.

A few years back, I met you, shook your hand, and you called me "Sweetie". I have been suffering ever since!! :rolleyes: :) :)


Suffering Shaking Sandy

[Fixed]

he's trim but I don't know if he's fit. How can you have time for anything like working out ?

I asked if he rode a Serotta-he said he has a Mevici on order with full DA.





Is this how rumors start ?



.
he plays a hard sport basketball .. he has a spring in his step still
cheers

[CNY rider]

I think you've got me beat, but one time I was making hospital rounds as a resident, walking slowly backwards as I talked to my interns and medical student, and next thing I know I'm right up against Mr. October, aka Reggie Jackson.

He was a real gentleman with everyone that met him in the hospital that day.

[Ray]

We're not allowed to talk about politics here, but VERY cool nonetheless. I saw him speak early in the campaign, but not from particularly close up. You can probably tell from my avatar/sig where my sympathies lie.

He'd better not ride a Serotta - it would play right into the elitist thing they're trying to pin on him. If he rides, it should be on a Huffy! He plays a lot of hoop - pretty good for a 46 year old guy.

-Ray

[Bill Bove]

Ray, i have your avatar on a t-shirt, it's cool.

I don't wear a flag pin my lapel to show my patriotism either, i have a dd214 for that :p

[coylifut]

I saw him running in Queen Kapiolani park in Honolulu about 2 months before he announced his candidacy. I saw this very tall African American man running towards me, dwarfed by two taller African American men on each side. As the trio went by I said "look honey he is running." He chuckled a bit and continued on.

[dvs cycles]

Do you still still have your wallet?
:p
And did you wash your hands afterwards?

[M.Sommers]

One can't help but like the man atmo.

[Avispa]

I asked if he rode a Serotta-he said he has a Mevici on order with full DA.

That's it! When I was thinking of someone to vote for.... then I read that he is going to get DA!

I guess I won't be voting, because I doubt if the other two have anything Campagnolo! :p

..A..

[Blue Jays]

"...he's trim but I don't know if he's fit..."He unfortunately chainsmokes cigarettes.

[hansolo758]

He unfortunately chainsmokes cigarettes.

Didn't Michelle make him give them up recently?

[Ray]

Ray, i have your avatar on a t-shirt, it's cool.

Very cool - where'd you get it? I saw a picture of Phil wearing one when the Dead did a benefit for him, but I scoured the Dead site and elsewhere to find one for sale. With no luck. I'm glad to know they're out there - I'd buy one if I could find it.

-Ray

[coylifut]

Didn't Michelle make him give them up recently?

the news story is the spouse made him give up smoking if he embarked on running for pres. Don't know if he's upheld his end of the bargain, but that's the story.

[Ray]

the news story is the spouse made him give up smoking if he embarked on running for pres. Don't know if he's upheld his end of the bargain, but that's the story.
I think he's been quoted as saying he's slipped a couple of times, but has basically stayed off of them. I can't imagine how hard it would be to quit under less stressful times and I can't even BEGIN to imagine the stamina required and stress imposed when running a serious presidential campaign. Trying to combine the two sounds truly insane. If he can pull that off and manages to get elected, being president should be a piece of cake in comparison.

-Ray

[BumbleBeeDave]

He's spending a heck of a lot of time on planes--where you can't smoke anyway. Forbid anyone smoking on the campaign bus and he has wife with him some (or most?) of the time to keep an eye on him. He's probably so damn busy he doesn't have a chance to lapse.

BBD

[Fixed]

He unfortunately chainsmokes cigarettes.
that is not true anyway imho and if he did he would have something in common with with a lot euro pro bike racers
he will be in tampa wednesday a.m. i'll be there
cheers

[Blue Jays]

"...he did he would have something in common with with a lot euro pro bike racers..."So that is why LeMond and Armstrong crushed so many overseas riders in the Tour de France all those years in a row!

[Fixed]

that is plain silly imho
cheers :beer:

[Tobias]

that is not true anyway imho and if he did he would have something in common with with a lot euro pro bike racers
he will be in tampa wednesday a.m. i'll be there
cheersSimple enough then – ask him if he is still a chain smoker.
While you’re at it, ask him why he started smoking in the first place.
I’d like to know how relatively young and smart people take the leap.
It’s not like the dangers haven’t been known for the last 30 years. :confused:

[Fixed]

bro i can ask why fat people eat at mcdonalds too ...is this what they call trolling ?

[Tobias]

One can't help but like the man atmo.Like as a man, yes.
Like for president? That's a little different.
I don't vote based on likeability. Never have.

[Tobias]

bro i can ask why fat people eat at mcdonalds too ...is this what they call trolling ?If you are replying to me, I have no idea what trolling is. Sorry, you'll have to educate me on that.

[goldyjackson]

Simple enough then – ask him if he is still a chain smoker.
While you’re at it, ask him why he started smoking in the first place.
I’d like to know how relatively young and smart people take the leap.
It’s not like the dangers haven’t been known for the last 30 years. :confused:

Read "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell, and you'll get why smart people start. It isn't about knowing the dangers. It's about making it "uncool." That's a rough summary of it, but I think evidence would bear this out...

Unfortunately, there are many pro athletes in all sorts of aerobic sports who will have a smoke...

[Tobias]

Read "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell, and you'll get why smart people start. It isn't about knowing the dangers. It's about making it "uncool." That's a rough summary of it, but I think evidence would bear this out...

Unfortunately, there are many pro athletes in all sorts of aerobic sports who will have a smoke...I have to admit I’m deeply biased on this subject. Too many people I loved died from smoking; but at least they started before it was known how dangerous it was.

I view people who start in light of available health information as having qualities I don’t particularly admire. It’s not to say he is not likeable and a nice guy. I’m sure he is, but I still don’t get it.

[Blue Jays]

"...there are many pro athletes in all sorts of aerobic sports who will have a smoke..."Giorgio Chinaglia was known to smoke a cigarette if he missed a penalty kick or similar mistake. He wasn't particularly warm with fans during his playing years.
Can't speak to his intelligence. It is peculiar to start smoking in today's day and age.

[rwsaunders]

that is not true anyway imho and if he did he would have something in common with with a lot euro pro bike racers
he will be in tampa wednesday a.m. i'll be there
cheers

I had to do the Google, Fixed.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=2855994&page=1

[sellsworth]

Last summer my family and I visited the Senate chamber when McCain was speaking and Obama was presiding. Little did we know then what would become of them!

[gasman]

I have to admit I’m deeply biased on this subject. Too many people I loved died from smoking; but at least they started before it was known how dangerous it was.
I view people who start in light of available health information as having qualities I don’t particularly admire. It’s not to say he is not likeable and a nice guy. I’m sure he is, but I still don’t get it.

Tobias-

There is an excellent article in the latest Scientific American on smoking addiction. There are a lot of good studies to show that many people are hooked as a young teen after, for some (about25%) just one cigarette. Most others are hooked after just a few weeks of smoking maybe a total of 20 cigarettes.

My father and my mother-in-law both died from lung cancer from smoking. I used to feel as you do but man it is a easy habit to pick up.

[gasman]

I saw him running in Queen Kapiolani park in Honolulu about 2 months before he announced his candidacy. I saw this very tall African American man running towards me, dwarfed by two taller African American men on each side. As the trio went by I said "look honey he is running." He chuckled a bit and continued on.


Great one-liner Terry


I almost called him Mr. President but I decided to hold my tongue.

[vaxn8r]

gman--P Barnes, son of W. was at the DAC working out this AM. He saw Barack across the gym working out. He went up to him and had a nice conversation with him. FYI, P. is a 19 year old kid. Obama took several minutes to meet with him. I asked P. if Obama was surrounded by suits and he told me "just one". Pretty cool experience for the young guy.

A month ago I was in Honolulu having dinner with some of my wife's friends. Obama went to Punaho, a well known private high school in Honolulu. When they heard he was running last year their thought was "Barry Obama? Wow!" They said he was a a pretty typical kid. Quiet. Good athlete/basketball player. Clearly they had no idea his future fame. Barry Obama...sounds so...pedestrian. Barack! Now there is a name!

[Tobias]

I used to feel as you do but man it is a easy habit to pick up.I guess I wonder why more people don’t have greater personal discipline. Not to be sanctimonious, but how hard is it to say no when you know what is at stake?

And then I have to wonder if those who give in to peer pressure at 15 are not more likely to cave under pressure at 50. Do people really change? I kind of doubt it, not significantly anyway. If a person does whatever it takes to fit in as a youngster, why wouldn’t they do it as an adult?

I’m guessing they would, and maybe that’s what makes them all successful politicians.

Not picking on Obama here, it just scares me that so many politicians have tried cocaine and who knows what else. It must be a reflection of their personalities IMO.

[goldyjackson]

I guess I wonder why more people don’t have greater personal discipline. Not to be sanctimonious, but how hard is it to say no when you know what is at stake?

And then I have to wonder if those who give in to peer pressure at 15 are not more likely to cave under pressure at 50. Do people really change? I kind of doubt it, not significantly anyway. If a person does whatever it takes to fit in as a youngster, why wouldn’t they do it as an adult?

I’m guessing they would, and maybe that’s what makes them all successful politicians.

Not picking on Obama here, it just scares me that so many politicians have tried cocaine and who knows what else. It must be a reflection of their personalities IMO.

I really do recommend reading "Blink." It's a great book, and it's not much about smoking. I'm not trying to quibble here, but personal choice and will power are much misunderstood concepts in human behavior, imho. Subconscious thoughts are ALWAYS more powerful than will power. There's just so much written on this, that I can't hope to do it justice. For smoking, as a teenager, I can KNOW it's bad for me and THINK don't do it, but the way our culture pounds me with images of how it's "cool" makes it a real battle in my head...

[harlond]

I guess I wonder why more people don’t have greater personal discipline. Not to be sanctimonious, but how hard is it to say no when you know what is at stake?

And then I have to wonder if those who give in to peer pressure at 15 are not more likely to cave under pressure at 50. Do people really change? I kind of doubt it, not significantly anyway. If a person does whatever it takes to fit in as a youngster, why wouldn’t they do it as an adult?

I’m guessing they would, and maybe that’s what makes them all successful politicians.

Not picking on Obama here, it just scares me that so many politicians have tried cocaine and who knows what else. It must be a reflection of their personalities IMO.Is this a serious post?

[malcolm]

Tobias, not trying to start an argument but you sound a little self righteous. I don't smoke, never have and find it revolting. I could never see myself having any sort of relationship with someone that did on a regular basis. I also realize that this is a personal bias. I don't think you can extrapolate weakness of character or personal discipline based on a single bad habit or choice. Certainly it can make you wonder what he was thinking, but lets dissect anyones life and see who hasn't made a bad choice or two. I think fixed's analogy of eating is a good example. It is no different than smoking, although I find it less repulsive, it is probably almost equally unhealthy when done to the extreme. I think we need to take a good look in the closets and corners of our own life before making sweeping judgements.

[coylifut]

I guess I wonder why more people don’t have greater personal discipline. Not to be sanctimonious, but how hard is it to say no when you know what is at stake?

And then I have to wonder if those who give in to peer pressure at 15 are not more likely to cave under pressure at 50. Do people really change? I kind of doubt it, not significantly anyway. If a person does whatever it takes to fit in as a youngster, why wouldn’t they do it as an adult?

I’m guessing they would, and maybe that’s what makes them all successful politicians.

Not picking on Obama here, it just scares me that so many politicians have tried cocaine and who knows what else. It must be a reflection of their personalities IMO.

The politicians that scare me the most are the ones who haven't tried cocaine and who knows what else. I think curiosity and youthful experimentation are normal.

[Ray]

And then I have to wonder if those who give in to peer pressure at 15 are not more likely to cave under pressure at 50. Do people really change? I kind of doubt it, not significantly anyway. If a person does whatever it takes to fit in as a youngster, why wouldn’t they do it as an adult?

I’m guessing they would, and maybe that’s what makes them all successful politicians.

Not picking on Obama here, it just scares me that so many politicians have tried cocaine and who knows what else. It must be a reflection of their personalities IMO.
I think your first statement here is pretty much hogwash. Of my friends and acquaintances, the VAST majority (myself included) were pretty impressionable at 15 and are quite independent minded as adults. I think this is the typical pattern. Its the rare teenager who's immune to peer pressure and the relatively rare adult who hasn't learned to move beyond peer pressure. Why do you think tobacco companies aim their advertising and marketing so squarely at kids? Because they can still get them and get 'em hooked. Not many people START smoking as adults.

I also wouldn't trust a politician who DIDN'T try pot and coke and whatever when they were young. They're either lying or they don't have much inherent curiosity. I'm pretty much as clean as they come these days - I rarely even have a beer, but I tried most of what was out there as a kid. And I don't regret any of it. A few people I knew went too far with it and never really came all the way back, but the vast majority experimented, got what they needed from it, and stopped. Or may still smoke a little bit of pot from time to time, but lead full and productive lives.

-Ray

[Tobias]

I also wouldn't trust a politician who DIDN'T try pot and coke and whatever when they were young.Leaving personal politics out of it, that's insane. You'd actually not trust a politician who grew up in an environment where he/she was too busy working, studying, or just too broke to buy drugs? Incomprehensible. Maybe you did more drugs than you think. :)

They're either lying or they don't have much inherent curiosity.So you're saying that all politicians (do you include others too) who passed on trying drugs are either liars or have no curiosity? That too is insane. What if their curiosity was centered on other stuff totally unrelated to getting high? Is valuable curiosity limited to frying one's brain?

I appears from comments here that drug use will be a prerequisite to run for office soon enough. :rolleyes:

[Tobias]

Is this a serious post?Absolutely. And if you have anything to add, have at it.

[Tobias]

I can’t imagine why grown men here are sending a message to young kids stating that if they don’t do drugs – or at least experiment with drugs -- that when they grow up some people won’t trust them or will think they lack curiosity.

Is that what we want to be saying?

I’ve seen a lot of spin in my days, but this takes the cake. “My guy did drugs so it must be a good thing, and makes him a better person.”

[coylifut]

I can’t imagine why grown men here are sending a message to young kids stating that if they don’t do drugs – or at least experiment with drugs -- that when they grow up some people won’t trust them or will think they lack curiosity.

Is that what we want to be saying?

I’ve seen a lot of spin in my days, but this takes the cake. “My guy did drugs so it must be a good thing, and makes him a better person.”

I would much prefer that no one partake in mind altering substances, but if they do, I'm not a one strike and you're out kind of guy.

[malcolm]

I think the message is I would rather be lead by someone that has an education but has also done something other than just go to school or prepare to be president.

[gasman]

gman--P Barnes, son of W. was at the DAC working out this AM. He saw Barack across the gym working out. He went up to him and had a nice conversation with him. FYI, P. is a 19 year old kid. Obama took several minutes to meet with him. I asked P. if Obama was surrounded by suits and he told me "just one". Pretty cool experience for the young guy.
A month ago I was in Honolulu having dinner with some of my wife's friends. Obama went to Punaho, a well known private high school in Honolulu. When they heard he was running last year their thought was "Barry Obama? Wow!" They said he was a a pretty typical kid. Quiet. Good athlete/basketball player. Clearly they had no idea his future fame. Barry Obama...sounds so...pedestrian. Barack! Now there is a name!


Cool !!

[Blue Jays]

When offered drugs during high school and college my easy answer was: "No thanks. They're both unhealthy and illegal. Go away from me."
It's rather easy to deal with peer pressure using that or a similar technique.

[Fixed]

When offered drugs during high school and college my easy answer was: "No thanks. They're both unhealthy and illegal. Go away from me."
It's rather easy to deal with peer pressure using that or a similar technique.
bro you went to high school in the late 60 -early 70's if you said no you were out of touch and remember alcohol is a drug too and more kids die from it than you might think
cheers imho

[RPS]

When offered drugs during high school and college my easy answer was: "No thanks. They're both unhealthy and illegal. Go away from me."
It's rather easy to deal with peer pressure using that or a similar technique.I like that.

My favorite was giving the guy a dirty look that said “what makes you think I’d possibly want to follow in your steps.”

I was fortunate that there wasn’t much pressure to do drugs on the engineering/technical side of campus – most guys were fairly conservative. The other side of campus is another story.

[Blue Jays]

"...bro you went to high school in the late 60 -early 70's if you said no you were out of touch..."That is hilarious!

[Ray]

That is hilarious!
It's true though. Maybe we need to allow for some understanding between eras here. I was in high school in the early/mid '70s. The pot wasn't that strong back then and EVERYone did some. You could function on it, the legal ramifications were minor at most, it was cheaper than booze and you didn't get a hangover. There was plenty of other stuff around too, but pot was pervasive. I was a small-time jock in high school and it wasn't like it was just the freaks who got high. Everyone did - the entire football team did, the whole baseball team did, everyone did. Except for a handfull of super-straight fundamentalist kids and lots of them did too.

I know that both attitudes, consequences, and the drugs themselves changed in the '80s. I stopped getting high pretty much when the pot got too strong to function on which was very late '70 and into the early '80s. Clinton is about 12-14 years older than I am and he probably DIDN'T inhale, ridiculous as it seems now. I'm just a couple of years older than Obama, and drugs were just part of being in high school in those days.

I don't condemn people who didn't try them who are younger or substantially older than I am. But anyone who's about my age who never even tried was in a VERY small minority and I really would question what kept them from trying them.

-Ray

[Fixed]

just ask the current president he is from then too
cheers

[csm]

you shook his hand? isn't there like a million dollar reward for his capture?
oh, OBAMA not OSAMA... my bad.

[flickwet]

It's true though. Maybe we need to allow for some understanding between eras here. I was in high school in the early/mid '70s. The pot wasn't that strong back then and EVERYone did some. You could function on it, the legal ramifications were minor at most, it was cheaper than booze and you didn't get a hangover. There was plenty of other stuff around too, but pot was pervasive. I was a small-time jock in high school and it wasn't like it was just the freaks who got high. Everyone did - the entire football team did, the whole baseball team did, everyone did. Except for a handfull of super-straight fundamentalist kids and lots of them did too.

I know that both attitudes, consequences, and the drugs themselves changed in the '80s. I stopped getting high pretty much when the pot got too strong to function on which was very late '70 and into the early '80s. Clinton is about 12-14 years older than I am and he probably DIDN'T inhale, ridiculous as it seems now. I'm just a couple of years older than Obama, and drugs were just part of being in high school in those days.

I don't condemn people who didn't try them who are younger or substantially older than I am. But anyone who's about my age who never even tried was in a VERY small minority and I really would question what kept them from trying them.

-Ray
Rays right, as they say if you remember the seventies you were'nt there. Firestone High School Class of 75

[M.Sommers]

Someone who admits they did something wrong/illegal, on their own accord, openly, without having to testify is a man in my book. Obama inhaled. He admitted it. I can accept that. Even if drugs were never a part of my life, ever. Lion-O was on steroids!!!

[itsflantastic]

you shook his hand? isn't there like a million dollar reward for his capture?
oh, OBAMA not OSAMA... my bad.

If I may be so blunt...
that's whack.

don't really care if you are kidding. i've got low tolerance for the promotion of ignorance. :no:

but, it's cute that you know how to rhyme.

(ps- 'O' drew a crowd of 75,000 in Portland Oregon today! Wow, Wow, Wow!)


now, lets get back to bikes.

[itsflantastic]

i think he should ride be riding a vintage 'nago personally... no meivici (no offense to our hosts).

[Ray]

If I may be so blunt...
that's whack.

don't really care if you are kidding. i've got low tolerance for the promotion of ignorance. :no:

but, it's cute that you know how to rhyme.

(ps- 'O' drew a crowd of 75,000 in Portland Oregon today! Wow, Wow, Wow!)


now, lets get back to bikes.
Hear Hear! That's the kind of crap that got politics banned here a while back. This thread has mostly been free of political commentary but a few comments about watching your wallet and joking that the guy is a Muslim are just basic slime. Even though I was one of the advocates of keeping politics open to the forum, if we can't do any better than that, I agree that we should just skip it and keep to bikes.

I'm keeping my avatar and sig though until they pry them from my cold, dead, fingers..... Or, you know, words to that effect.

-Ray

[csm]

Crap? It was a joke. lighten up dorks. it was not political at all. it was a admittedly bad pun. it doesn't mean anything other than what it said. almost seems like you assumed I was not an Obama fan.
seriously, get a life. that comment was no where near approaching some of the banter that lead to thread locking.

[ClutchCargo]

A few years back, I met you, shook your hand, and you called me "Sweetie". I have been suffering ever since!! :rolleyes: :) :)


Suffering Shaking Sandy

is how rumors start atmo !

p.s. poor Obama; if he really did order DA he lost
over half the votes on this forum right there ! :rolleyes:

[William]

is how rumors start atmo !

p.s. poor Obama; if he really did order DA he lost
over half the votes on this forum right there ! :rolleyes:


He needs to consult with Douglas about mixing and matching components on a commuter or fixie.





William

[Ray]

Crap? It was a joke. lighten up dorks. it was not political at all. it was a admittedly bad pun. it doesn't mean anything other than what it said. almost seems like you assumed I was not an Obama fan.
seriously, get a life. that comment was no where near approaching some of the banter that lead to thread locking.
Except that the whole Obama/Osama/Muslim thing has also been part of the hit-job his opponents are trying and every time its repeated, it sounds like another voice in that hit job. Which IIRC is exactly the kind of thing that got the political topics banned in the past. I don't have a problem with anyone liking or not liking any political candidate - my preferences are pretty obvious. But I do have a problem with that level of discourse.

-Ray

[gdw]

I would have made the same comment if he had shaken Clinton's or McCain's hand.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . so far is that it's beginning to slide into personal attacks. Is it really worth jumping all over each other? Please lighten up? . . . Many thanks!

BBD

[Ray]

What's your problem? I would have made the same comment if he had shaken Clinton's or McCain's hand. Thin skinned people like you are exactly why we should avoid politics on this forum.
Fair enough. I was reacting mostly to the Obama/Osama thing and reached to quickly for another example. Apologies.

I once shook McCain's hand - whatchoo gotta say about that? :beer:

-Ray

[Fixed]

bro this year is a touchy year for all sides none of our leaders want us to be mad and hateful about this stuff ..the good thing about lawyers they can disagree and still be friends something most of us could learn imho
cheers

[gdw]

and didn't intend my post to be so harsh. Monday's are bad days to run out of coffee. :beer:

[William]

..the good thing about lawyers they can disagree and still be friends something most of us could learn imho
cheers


Dude, if these two can live together, then the rest of us should have no problems at all.

http://www.architecturaldigest.com/images/homes/2008/01/carville/hoar01_carville.jpg


Just sayin' :D



William

[Ray]

and didn't intend my post to be so harsh. Monday's are bad days to run out of coffee. :beer:
Not a problem - I deserved it. I used your line as an example to back up a larger point I was making. I stand by the larger point, but had no business using you as an example of it.

We keep each other honest - the key is to try to do it civilly. We all fail sometimes.

-Ray

[RPS]

I don't condemn people who didn't try them who are younger or substantially older than I am. But anyone who's about my age who never even tried was in a VERY small minority and I really would question what kept them from trying them.Ray, I’m roughly your age, and will share a few reasons why I didn’t try drugs.

After school I worked. Weekends typically involved working both Saturday and Sunday.
After work I had to study – and because of language barrier it left me with little free time.
I didn’t have money to buy drugs, and if I did, some adult would have picked up on it immediately.
I grew up in a very small town where everyone knew everything.
None of my friends did drugs either.
At that time use of illegal drugs was punished severely – including marijuana.
The few kids in my high school who tried drugs (other than alcohol) were removed.

And to your earlier comment about drugs and lack of curiosity – I was always curious about a lot of things; but mostly about the physical world around me. And yes, I did lots of stupid experiments as a kid, but none involving drugs.

By the way, what’s the point in experimentation when the results are well known? Isn’t getting high like hitting your hand with a hammer? We know what’s going to happen, right? I personally think a higher state of curiosity drives exploring the unknown.

[goonster]

Isn’t getting high like hitting your hand with a hammer? We know what’s going to happen, right?

:confused:

I'm a late bloomer and first got drunk at age nineteen. It was not the same as reading about it.

[RPS]

Except that the whole Obama/Osama/Muslim thing has also been part of the hit-job his opponents are trying and every time its repeated, it sounds like another voice in that hit job. Which IIRC is exactly the kind of thing that got the political topics banned in the past. I don't have a problem with anyone liking or not liking any political candidate - my preferences are pretty obvious. But I do have a problem with that level of discourse.

-RayThe potential problem with “apolitical” threads like this is that it indirectly promotes Obama; if nothing else by just mentioning his name.

And for those who don’t like him or don’t like his political views it must be hard to sit quietly on the sidelines under the “no politics” forum requirement.

I think it's asking a lot of some.

[shinomaster]

Someone who admits they did something wrong/illegal, on their own accord, openly, without having to testify is a man in my book. Obama inhaled. He admitted it. I can accept that. Even if drugs were never a part of my life, ever. Lion-O was on steroids!!!



YEah...Bush did coke...He is super!

[RPS]

:confused:

I'm a late bloomer and first got drunk at age nineteen. It was not the same as reading about it.True, but why don't you break your left femur so you know first hand what that feels like? :confused:

From my perspective it's not about experimentation, it's about following the crowd to be accepted.

[Ray]

By the way, what’s the point in experimentation when the results are well known? Isn’t getting high like hitting your hand with a hammer? We know what’s going to happen, right? I personally think a higher state of curiosity drives exploring the unknown.
OK, sorry to have painted with such a broad brush. I'm sure things were different in a small enough town where everyone was watching. But it was pervasive where I was, and seems to have been for a number of other folks.

And no, I wouldn't say it was like hitting your head with a hammer. It was actually a lot of fun, mostly very pleasant, and, in some cases, QUITE educational. Some drugs were TOO pleasant and addictive and that's where people got into big trouble. They liked it too much until they couldn't control it. I tried some of those exactly ONCE, found out how nice they were, and NEVER went back there because I knew what could happen. Far from hitting your head against the wall, it was like sinking your head into the nicest, most all enveloping pillow you've ever seen.

But pot was just a nice mellow buzz that could help you laugh VERY easily. I still think it should be at least as legal as booze - far less destructive. I liked it and did a lot of it for a couple of years. Have very successful friends who still smoke from time to time and I might too except for bad lungs, asthma, etc. And psychedelics were something I really think everyone should at least try. They really can force you to question just what we do and don't understand about the world we live in and I found them to be a net positive. Very very powerful and not to be taken lightly or often, but very educational, interesting, fun, frightening, all of that stuff. I knew a few people who spent too much time out there and got pretty messed up, but most people who treated them with respect got a lot out of them. I'd actually LOVE to hear a candidate say he or she had done mushrooms or peyote a few times and learned a lot from them and didn't regret it. I'd vote for them almost regardless of their political views! :cool:

Drugs have been demonized and there clearly is a very BIG downside to lots of them, but people wouldn't do them if there wasn't a very real upside to it also. As Goon said, it's not like reading about it.

-Ray

[BumbleBeeDave]

The potential problem with “apolitical” threads like this is that it indirectly promotes Obama; if nothing else by just mentioning his name.

And for those who don’t like him or don’t like his political views it must be hard to sit quietly on the sidelines under the “no politics” forum requirement.

I think it's asking a lot of some.

. . . but I also politely disagree that it promotes him just by mentioning his name. By this time it's not secret who the three main candidates are. Among those here who are staunchly anti-drug, yet who had not heard this about him, the reaction to seeing the info here could be quite the opposite. It could easily cost him supporters.

But I personally have no problem with discussing politics of the election as long as the discussion is about issues and not personal attacks on either the candidates or other posters. Discuss the effect of candidates drug use on their ability to be a good leader? Sure, because it's the sum total of life experience that makes a person what they are AS a person and a leader. Personally, I have respect for someone who may have done something unpopular and/or just plain dumb in the past, but who can stand up and admit they did it, they made a mistake, they learned from it, and move on. In fact, I'd be very nervous about voting for anyone who doesn't have the ability to admit their mistakes and learn from them. But I don't know the entire context of this particular story--is what I describe above really the way he did or said it? I can't be sure, so I'm going to reserve judgment.

Unfortunately, what was proving to be impossible some weeks ago when Pete imposed the "no politics" rule was precisely an ability to reserve judgment and discuss issues dispassionately. Everything seemed to suddenly devolve into personal attacks on the candidates or other posters. It created a huge amount of bad will that seemed to be spreading to other subjects. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but that's certainly the reason I urged Pete to get rid of the political stuff. Maybe now people have calmed down enough that he could allow it again. He's allowed this thread so far. Maybe he'll chime in here . . .

BBD

[Ray]

The potential problem with “apolitical” threads like this is that it indirectly promotes Obama; if nothing else by just mentioning his name.

And for those who don’t like him or don’t like his political views it must be hard to sit quietly on the sidelines under the “no politics” forum requirement.

I think it's asking a lot of some.
I agree with that completely. I didn't have a problem with the political threads until they got out of hand. I like a good civil discussion of politics, but hate when it turns into flame wars, which some of ours started to do. So I don't have a problem with these threads not happening much if at all and I haven't started one since the ban. But when there's one out there, I obviously can't resist jumping in. And trying my best to keep the discussion civilized. But not always succeeding.

EDIT - and I agree with Dave's point too. As long as the discussion is civil, you can learn things about a candidate that might turn you against him or her. Which is useful. If we can do it civilly. I think Obama's admission of his drug use was pretty upfront. I don't see a downside to it. But whatever you think, it's just more information to factor into forming your opinion.

-Ray

[Acotts]

Tobias-

Taking the thread back to an earlier tangent, I want to address cigarettes. I think it is disgusting, I never have or never will date a smoker, and is just plain bad for you.

Still, I smoke about 1-2 packs a year. Now, 300 days out of the year, i do not even think about them. I run, bike, swim, lift weights, and box. I have big lungs and I use them a lot. (I used to swim 50 meters underwater after every swim class when I was in college. Its further than you think)

But when I smoke, I want to do damage to me. I want to be unhealthy. I want to hurt myself. Its morbid, I know, but I don’t think that I am the only one who does this. Its just part of how I deal with my depression. (This only happens in the winter. I don’t think I have ever smoked a cigarette in the sun.) Its like cutting myself. it provides some sort of physical release for my emotional anxieties. Some how this got into my programming and I cant let go of it, because when I smoke, I just don’t give an ‘eff about letting go of it.

So as weird as it is, I smoke for all the same reasons that you don't. This usually happens once in November and then again in February. This started at about the age of 16, and I still do it 10 years later.

anyways, this is just one mans reasoning. I smoke becuase it is bad for me and I am not an alchoholic.

[csm]

I thought the whole muslim attack on obama was uncalled for. I still think my comment was kinda funny.
mccain was able to poke fun and laugh at himself. I'd think Obama would be able to do the same.
btw, I'm not telling who I am voting for.

[RPS]

Drugs have been demonized and there clearly is a very BIG downside to lots of them, but people wouldn't do them if there wasn't a very real upside to it also. As Goon said, it's not like reading about it.

-RayRay, apparently my background is so different that I see things in a different light – not that it makes it better than yours.

Truthfully, the idea of a president who used (and may still be using) drugs scares the heck out of me (generic comment, not referring to Bush or Obama). I view it in the context of what’s at stake, not from a personal/moral standpoint. When I worked in a chemical plant with lots of explosives, poisons, and fire hazards all around, everyone was subject to random drug testing because if anyone showed up to work high or with a hangover lots of people could get killed. Mistakes in many fields are not like missing a musical note, or a number on a spreadsheet. Consequences can be severe.

Airline pilots are tested to make sure they don’t do drugs due to obvious consequences. Do we want people who do drugs working at a nuclear power plant? How about in charge of a nuclear submarine? Where do we draw the line? I don’t know, but I want to make sure the doctor that operates on me is not high or hung-over either.

Without getting into politics; what I find intriguing about this debate/discussion is that many are willing to accept a president who has command over the world’s mightiest nuclear arsenal with fewer requirements than what we require of a pilot, a captain, or a plant worker.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Ray, apparently my background is so different that I see things in a different light – not that it makes it better than yours.

Truthfully, the idea of a president who used (and may still be using) drugs scares the heck out of me (generic comment, not referring to Bush or Obama). I view it in the context of what’s at stake, not from a personal/moral standpoint. When I worked in a chemical plant with lots of explosives, poisons, and fire hazards all around, everyone was subject to random drug testing because if anyone showed up to work high or with a hangover lots of people could get killed. Mistakes in many fields are not like missing a musical note, or a number on a spreadsheet. Consequences can be severe.

Airline pilots are tested to make sure they don’t do drugs due to obvious consequences. Do we want people who do drugs working at a nuclear power plant? How about in charge of a nuclear submarine? Where do we draw the line? I don’t know, but I want to make sure the doctor that operates on me is not high or hung-over either.

Without getting into politics; what I find intriguing about this debate/discussion is that many are willing to accept a president who has command over the world’s mightiest nuclear arsenal with fewer requirements than what we require of a pilot, a captain, or a plant worker.

. . . a leader who can admit his mistakes and feel as if he's legitimately learned from them. To me the subject of the mistake is secondary. The way they are admitted is also important, though. Remember Clinton and his Mary Jane experiment? Claiming he "didn't inhale" ended up being a bigger mistake than the original drug experimentation seemed to be. It's still a staple political joke. Did anyone seriously ask Obama in this situation how long ago that drug use was? Whether he's used any more? How recent that use may have been? How he would react if he found out his own son had done the same thing? The answers to those questions actually concern me more than his smoking one reefer in grad school to see what it was like . . .

BBD

[RPS]

I think Obama's admission of his drug use was pretty upfront. I don't see a downside to it.Ray, I don't want to get into politics about any one candidate.
In general, I think all politicians have discovered that they can't hide their past.
It is that that makes them admit to things they would rather not have done.
The consequences of hiding their past and then having it surface a day or two before an election is much worse.
To me it doesn't say anything about the candidate -- just about information flow of our times.

[coylifut]

Ray, I don't want to get into politics about any one candidate.
In general, I think all politicians have discovered that they can't hide their past.
It is that that makes them admit to things they would rather not have done.
The consequences of hiding their past and then having it surface a day or two before an election is much worse.
To me it doesn't say anything about the candidate -- just about information flow of our times.

His admission about his drug use was in his first book, Dreams from My Father. It was published in 1995, before embarking upon his political carrer. I agree with your above statement, but at least in this case, his admission(s) don't appear to be a strategic and defensive move.

[shinomaster]

Doing a bong hit in college isn't quite as bad as starting a war or corruption imho.

[Ray]

Truthfully, the idea of a president who used (and may still be using) drugs scares the heck out of me (generic comment, not referring to Bush or Obama). I view it in the context of what’s at stake, not from a personal/moral standpoint. When I worked in a chemical plant with lots of explosives, poisons, and fire hazards all around, everyone was subject to random drug testing because if anyone showed up to work high or with a hangover lots of people could get killed. Mistakes in many fields are not like missing a musical note, or a number on a spreadsheet. Consequences can be severe.
Has Used doesn't bother me for reasons already discussed. Still Uses would bother me, but again, its not totally black and white. Do I want a president who drinks heavily? Of course not. Do I mind if he has a couple of drinks every now and then? No, not really. If he or she happens to prefer a couple of tokes off of a joint, I don't have any more problem with that than a couple of glasses of wine. Except that pot is illegal and they should obviously obey the law, but, frankly, that law should be changed.

Heavy use of ANY recreational drug is not appropriate for a president, but the occasional drink or toke would not bother me. And, while we're on it, I'd rather my pilot not be high or drunk, but if he has to be one or the other, I'd rather he be a little bit high. I, unfortunately did drive slightly drunk a few times and slightly high a few times. Being drunk screws up your judgment more and makes you less cautious. Being high always made me more cautious, for whatever reason.

-Ray

[dvs cycles]

..the good thing about lawyers
Oximoron time. :banana:

[Fixed]

ray for v.p.
imho
cheers

[goonster]

what I find intriguing about this debate/discussion is that many are willing to accept a president who has command over the world’s mightiest nuclear arsenal with fewer requirements than what we require of a pilot, a captain, or a plant worker.

You are all over the map, my friend.

First of all, performance can't be assured by a drug test. You mentioned hangovers twice in the context of testing, and that won't fail a test at all.

Second, I believe in this thread there are some folks who are willing to accept a president who admits to trying weed as a kid, not firing up the bong in office. Mkay?

By the way, for the record, non-partisanlike, I'm aware of one sitting president in the last fifty years who incapacitated himself with an awareness-altering substance during a crisis of state, to the point that his Secretary of State quietly took over the reigns. The People didn't accept his behavior and he eventually resigned.

Thirdly, pilots, ship masters and plant workers don't have to run the gauntlet of a bloodthirsty press and a mob of political enemies, so the requirements remain quite high, atmo.

[RPS]

His admission about his drug use was in his first book, Dreams from My Father. It was published in 1995, before embarking upon his political carrer. I agree with your above statement, but at least in this case, his admission(s) don't appear to be a strategic and defensive move.What do they say about the best defense?

Besides, I think most politians know from a very early age what they want, and start a long process of grooming themselves -- or in some cases being groomed by others like their father (thinking of Kennedy).

[goonster]

Being high always made me more cautious, for whatever reason.


An acquaintance said he sometimes waited for the stop signs to turn green. Quite safe, that. :)

[Ray]

An acquaintance said he sometimes waited for the stop signs to turn green. Quite safe, that. :)
And depending on what you were high ON, they just might :cool:

Lest anyone be concerned, these are all pretty distant memories. But VIVID!

-Ray

[coylifut]

What do they say about the best defense?

Besides, I think most politians know from a very early age what they want, and start a long process of grooming themselves -- or in some cases being groomed by others like their father (thinking of Kennedy).

Conspricacy theories always give me a gigle. Thank you for today's entertainment.

:D :D :D

[Karin Kirk]

redacted

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . my freshman poli-sci professor said a lot of stuff that just went right by me, no memory of it at all. But I do for some strange reason remember him telling us that all winning political candidates are the same, no matter what the party. They start out building a coalition of voters that want to climb on the bandwagon for whatever reason, whether it be agreeing on one key issue or group of issues, being swept up by the personality, or just wanting to back a winner.

But as soon as the candidate is elected, he/she has to inevitably start actually making decisions that actually affect people's lives, and every decision alienates somebody. Eventually the leader alienates enough people that he loses enough of the coalition to get re-elected. I'm sure if Obama gets elected he will prove no different, regardless of how emotional things are now. He will have to stop just talking the "change" talk and start actually walking the "change" walk . . .

BBD

[Fixed]

he is in my city wednesday i will be there
it's a mile from where i work
cheers

[Fixed]

. . . my freshman poli-sci professor said a lot of stuff that just went right by me, no memory of it at all. But I do for some strange reason remember him telling us that all winning political candidates are the same, no matter what the party. They start out building a coalition of voters that want to climb on the bandwagon for whatever reason, whether it be agreeing on one key issue or group of issues, being swept up by the personality, or just wanting to back a winner.

But as soon as the candidate is elected, he/she has to inevitably start actually making decisions that actually affect people's lives, and every decision alienates somebody. Eventually the leader alienates enough people that he loses enough of the coalition to get re-elected. I'm sure if Obama gets elected he will prove no different, regardless of how emotional things are now. He will have to stop just talking the "change" talk and start actually walking the "change" walk . . .

BBD
bro you are way smarter than me but he is nothing but change look at the cat his face is america imho
cheers

[El Chaba]

I thought political content was banned?????

[rwsaunders]

I thought political content was banned?????

ditto.

[Tobias]

I'm sure if Obama gets elected he will prove no different, regardless of how emotional things are now. He will have to stop just talking the "change" talk and start actually walking the "change" walk . . .

BBDThe election of Clinton or Obama will prove me wrong because I thought the odds were higher for the first female or minority president to be a Republican.

My concern is not so much that reality will set in when he/she has to deliver on campaign promises as you mention, but that the masses don’t like to be overwhelmed with excessive change all at once. A little change is good -- too much leads to chaos.

If we look for a parallel in the financial markets, too much uncertainty leads to unstabilizing volatility. Similarly, a minority/female president who is not particularly conservative or experienced will have a tough time with the transition.

I think Obama will likely win, but I also think he has many unprecedented challenges ahead of him. Not fair, but one I expect nonetheless.

[Tobias]

So that was fun. I think I have kept this post non-political; I just wanted to share the experience of it. Thanks for reading.Not really IMHO; but that's completely OK with me.

How can you and Dave endorse Obama and not it be political? By what definition of "politics"?

[Karin Kirk]

Not really IMHO; but that's completely OK with me.

How can you and Dave endorse Obama and not it be political? By what definition of "politics"?

OK, sorry. I deleted the post.
My intent was to talk about the experience of the rally, rather than the issues.
My apologies for bringing it up and hopefully I did not offend anyone.

[malcolm]

Karin, sorry I missed it.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Not really IMHO; but that's completely OK with me.

How can you and Dave endorse Obama and not it be political? By what definition of "politics"?

. . . I was not endorsing him at all. I just think it's fascinating to watch it all. Obama is a fascinating character study. If he does win he will be the first black ever in the Oval Office. That's bona fide history in the making that no one can dispute, and you don't often get to see that. If he wins our system--and probably our society--will be shaken up simply by the fact of his race, and it takes a whole lot to shake up our system with the inertia it's built up.

Pete is well aware of this thread--if it gets out of hand I'm sure he will shut it down pronto. The problem in the first place was not political content itself. It was the way people could not seem to discuss it courteously. If that has changed then maybe he will relax the ban. I'm enjoying the thread, mostly because people ARE being courteous.

BBD

[Pete Serotta]

Life and Living are political..... Dave is right on........ :banana: :banana:

. . .

The problem in the first place was not political content itself. It was the way people could not seem to discuss it courteously.

BBD

[RPS]

OK, sorry. I deleted the post.
My intent was to talk about the experience of the rally, rather than the issues.
My apologies for bringing it up and hopefully I did not offend anyone.Karin, you should repost it.
I happen to agree that it is impossible to make a statement about a candidate without it being somewhat political,
but your post was much less so than others above.
Based on Pete's latest comment I'd go for it. He seems a little more flexible in light of civility. Your post was politically bland anyway.
IMHO you are one of least controversial on the forum.

[Karin Kirk]

You calling me "bland?" Now that will make me start a flame war, for sure! :p

I generally try to be non-confrontational; that is quite deliberate. So I will keep it that way for now.

But thanks for being nice. :)

[M.Sommers]

The story of the day is Ted Kennedy, he has brain cancer. He endorsed Obama. I wish the man well. I disagree with Mr. Kennedy on many issues, but I truly hope he can get well. He's a legend.

:beer:

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . yet another thread with the bland leading the bland. :rolleyes:

(Sorry. Couldn't resist!)

BBD

[benb]

He'd better not ride a Serotta - it would play right into the elitist thing they're trying to pin on him. If he rides, it should be on a Huffy! He plays a lot of hoop - pretty good for a 46 year old guy.

-Ray

This is what's hysterical about politics and the media.

If Obama rides a Serotta he's an elitist who can't identify with the common man just like John Kerry was painted as.

But if a candidate flies his private jet to his his $500 million parcel of private land with to have a fox hunt with his 500 head of purebred hounds... that's cool and not elitist at all.

[Fixed]

The story of the day is Ted Kennedy, he has brain cancer. He endorsed Obama. I wish the man well. I disagree with Mr. Kennedy on many issues, but I truly hope he can get well. He's a legend.

:beer:
that sucks bigtime i am broken hearted
I looked up to the kennedys my whole life
cheers

[Tobias]

OK, sorry. I deleted the post.
My intent was to talk about the experience of the rally, rather than the issues.
My apologies for bringing it up and hopefully I did not offend anyone.I wish you wouldn’t have deleted your post Karin; it was very well written. If I knew my comment was going to have that affect I would have not replied at all.

To your point, I agree that Obama is very charismatic. He has a great voice and a big friendly smile, and does a great job delivering speeches. It reminds me of the speech Michael Douglas gave in the American President – very moving. On the other hand I’m not moved in the real world by charismatic people – for all I care they could get an actor to deliver the speech with equal effectiveness. I stay focused on the message, not the delivery.

I like Obama as a person well enough and think that we are overdue for a black president – although I’d much prefer a man of Colin Powell’s character, experience, and wisdom. Anyway, I like Obama OK, I just don’t like most of his political positions.

I won’t be voting for him but won’t get bent out of shape if he wins either. As we get closer to the election if it still looks like he will win, I’ll take action to protect myself and my (limited) interests. In my opinion his presidency will bring about change well beyond what most Americans think; and I don’t mean that as praise like most are using the “change” word.

[Fixed]

You calling me "bland?" Now that will make me start a flame war, for sure! :p

I generally try to be non-confrontational; that is quite deliberate. So I will keep it that way for now.

But thanks for being nice. :)
you and dave are two of my heros even more now thanks
cheers

[Blue Jays]

That is unfortunate news about Senator Kennedy's recently-diagnosed brain tumor because he looks far healthier now than he did fifteen years ago.

[Ray]

In my opinion his presidency will bring about change well beyond what most Americans think; and I don’t mean that as praise like most are using the “change” word.
I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at here, but I think our society is on the verge of massive changes REGARDLESS of which of the remaining candidates wins. Peak oil has gone, in a VERY short time, from a fringe theory to a commonly accepted phenomenon and its either upon us or very close. Thus begins a relatively rapid transition into an economy that vastly de-emphasizes oil usage and that's gonna mean big changes regardless. With major implications for the environment, the economy, and international relations. Massive stuff coming quickly is my guess. The question is which of the two guys left standing is best able to preside over the beginning of that transition. My preference is obvious, but I don't think the amount of 'change' is going to be terribly different regardless of who wins. Only how the change comes about.

And another voice of sadness for Ted Kennedy. Sounds, from early reports, like a pretty tough diagnosis. Love him or hate him, he's been a very effective legislator. And, like lots of successful politicians, a great and greatly flawed man. A guy I've come to respect enormously. And the only Kennedy brother of his generation who will die of natural causes - for whatever that matters, it came to my mind when I heard the news this afternoon.

-Ray

ps - jeez, I got so engulfed in this discussion of drugs and politics that I didn't even notice I blew through 3,000 posts. I think the next thousand is gonna take a lot longer than any of the previous three.

[RPS]

My preference is obvious, but I don't think the amount of 'change' is going to be terribly different regardless of who wins. Only how the change comes about.I wouldn't have noticed. :)

Who are the two guys left? Clinton and Obama, or Obama and McCain? Not sure who you mean.

Since you bring up energy -- which happens to be an excellent example and close to home for Texans -- it should be a reminder for all of us that what happens in US economy and US politics doesn't happen in a vacuum. Oil is up 34 percent this year even though demand is about the same, and I can't help but believe that our present political status doesn't affect world markets. World oil producers are quite aware of who the front runner is, what his energy views are, and what he may or may not likely do.

In addition to differences on oil and energy in general, McCain and Obama have different views on taxes as well. Change will happen without a doubt, but the outcome can't possibly be similar. Regardless of my personal opinions, I can't expect the same outcome from such different approaches.

It will be very interesting over the next few years. I feel like a repeat of the oil crisis under Carter all over again. Hopefully it will turn out better than last time.

[Ray]

I wouldn't have noticed. :)

Who are the two guys left? Clinton and Obama, or Obama and McCain? Not sure who you mean.

Since you bring up energy -- which happens to be an excellent example and close to home for Texans -- it should be a reminder for all of us that what happens in US economy and US politics doesn't happen in a vacuum. Oil is up 34 percent this year even though demand is about the same, and I can't help but believe that our present political status doesn't affect world markets. World oil producers are quite aware of who the front runner is, what his energy views are, and what he may or may not likely do.

In addition to differences on oil and energy in general, McCain and Obama have different views on taxes as well. Change will happen without a doubt, but the outcome can't possibly be similar. Regardless of my personal opinions, I can't expect the same outcome from such different approaches.

It will be very interesting over the next few years. I feel like a repeat of the oil crisis under Carter all over again. Hopefully it will turn out better than last time.
By two guys left, I meant Obama and McCain. I don't mean to dis Hillary, but it IS over. How she handles herself and how she deals with her supporters will have some effect over whether Obama or McCain gets elected. But she's just not gonna be the next president, as much as some folks might still like to believe she will be.

Your mention of Carter is interesting. He was terrible at a lot of parts of being president - no argument here. But if we'd have started dealing with the energy issues when he was trying to push us to, we'd likely be in a much stronger position today. Or, if things had been a few hundred votes different in Florida eight years ago, think of how different things would likely be today. We can differ over whether it would be better or worse, but we can probably agree it would be very different.

-Ray

[vaxn8r]

I didn't really want to get into this thread for a variety of reasons but it brought to mind a quote of Lance Armstrong:

"I try not to take the risks that I feel are very risky, but at the same time I try to find the risks that are just below there. And I love to take those and I think those are great for pushing the envelope a little or just reminding yourself that you’re alive. Fear is good and being scared is good. I need that at times. Whether or not that’s going downhill on a bike at 70 miles an hour, or jumping off a cliff, or riding a motorcycle -- those are just fears that I think are healthy. But would I go smoke a cigarette? Never, because that’s a risk that I don’t ever need to take."

You all know I'm not a big LA fan but I gotta side with him on this one. I've ridden a bike downhill at 68 mph but I've never once felt the need to experiment with drugs. To have done so is a personal choice but it doesn't make one a better person because did or did not partake. I respect those I've met who used/experimented with drugs and then moved aside. I also respect those, like me, who respected the risks associated with experimentation and had the maturity at a young age to withstand the peer pressure. We all percieve and take risk according to values we were raised with and developed through personal experience. I try not to judge others based on past performance but on what they have become.

So Ray, even you are OK in my book. XXOO

[RPS]

...snipped....
We can differ over whether it would be better or worse, but we can probably agree it would be very different.

-RayYes Ray, I agree a Gore presidency would have been quite different. However, I try not to spend a single second thinking about whether it would have been better or worse. It is what it is and we'll never know so why waste my time on it? Wasting time here is much more productive. :rolleyes:


P.S. -- As an engineer, Carter had some good technical ideas. He just couldn't convince the people that we had to take action. If we had, we'd likely be more like France today.

[gasman]

Man-

all this discussion just 'cause I shook a guys' hand.


Wow I was even happier to meet Dave Kirk and e-richie than Obama.

[Ray]

I've ridden a bike downhill at 68 mph but I've never once felt the need to experiment with drugs. To have done so is a personal choice but it doesn't make one a better person because did or did not partake. I respect those I've met who used/experimented with drugs and then moved aside. I also respect those, like me, who respected the risks associated with experimentation and had the maturity at a young age to withstand the peer pressure. We all percieve and take risk according to values we were raised with and developed through personal experience. I try not to judge others based on past performance but on what they have become.

So Ray, even you are OK in my book. XXOO
Same back at you Vax.

Funny how we perceive BIG risks though. None of the drugs I ever took coulda killed me. Unless I got waaaaaaaaay more into them than I ever did. Descending on a bike at 68 mph surely could if you lost it. I took all sorts of risks when I was young, some of them not all that calculated. Now I take a lot fewer risks and each one is a far more calculated. I think all of us find ways of figuring out where the edge is when we're young, and stepping right up to it and sort of peering over it into the abyss. And most of us are lucky enough to live through it and not go over the damn thing.

-Ray