Creaking: stumped (with long description)

[keevon]

EDIT: FOUND IT! See page two.

I have developed a creak/crunching sound on this bike:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=40786
It happens when pedaling out of the saddle, on the down stroke of the driveside crank. It's sort of a three-part clicking sound. I can usually replicate the click by leaning the bike against a wall, rotating the driveside crank to 6:00, and pushing the pedal hard towards the frame (deflecting the BB shell). That's a single click, however, and seems to 'unclick' when I rotate the bar. The bar and levers aren't the culprit, as standing next to the bike and weighting both sides of the bar separately doesn't produce the click.

Here's a list of the things I've tried. All have failed.

- Replace alu chainring bolts w/ steel, grease threads.
- Grease + reinstall hidden 5th chainring bolt.
- Lightly grease BB axle + reinstall cranks w/ torque wrench.
- Grease pedal spindles + reinstall pedals.
- Swap out Keo Carbon pedals w/ new Keo Classics.
- Grease BB shell, teflon tape cups + reinstall Chorus BB.
- Swap Chorus BB w/ new Token BB (grease + teflon tape).
- Grease FD clamp bolt + reinstall w/ teflon tape on seat tube.
- Grease + reinstall cable guide bolt under BB shell.
- Grease hanger threads, teflon tape bolt + reinstall RD.
- Lube faces of replaceable hanger.
- Loctite + reinstall replaceable hanger bolt.
- Swap out rear wheel.
- Lube frame + fork at QR clamping faces.
- Lube frame at cable housing ferrules.
- Friction paste + reinstall stem.
- Grease crown race + reinstall fork.
- Grease around integrated headset bearings + reinstall fork.
- Remove bottle cages.
- Inspect frame for cracks (none seen).

I think that's everything. I'm stumped, dismayed, and have wasted too much time this week chasing down this creak. I'm hesitant to go to the LBS, because they'll likely try everything I have and charge me for it.

What am I missing?

[Louis]

Get a mechanic's stethoscope to help pinpoint the location. Even Harbor Freight carries them.

Louis

[PaulE]

these noises really frustrate me when I go through a long list like yours and the noise is still there.

It sounds like you are able to partially recreate the noise without riding the bike. Is there a slight amount of deformation of the chainrings so that the chain is momentarily contacting the front derailleur?

You put teflon tape under the front derailleur clamp, where I would normally use some grease. I would think teflon would work the same as grease, but?

Maybe take off the front derailleur and cable and try the standing and pushing routine or a short ride and see if the noise is still there?

I know you can partially recreate it by pushing on the crank without riding, but maybe your shoes or cleats are worn or the cleats are loose?

When you installed or changed pedals, did you sufficiently tighten them with the pedal wrench? Some people figure the pedals will naturally tighten and therefore don't use the wrench to make them really tight. A lot of times it doesn't cause a noise, but sometimes it can.

You swapped out the rear wheel but not the front? Try swapping the front wheel if you can.

Could there be microscopic cracks in the square hole in the crank or could the hole be just a little bit deformed, causing the creak? Maybe you can try replacing the crank?

Are those rear carbon seatstays on that bike? If so, are there any microscopic gaps in the bonding to the frame? Can you push/pull on the stays and make the noise?

Don't know if any of this will help. Hopefully someone else with more expertise will chime in here, and I hope that you solve it. I will be interested to hear what it is when you ultimately succeed.

[CNY rider]

Nearly the same noise drove me effin crazy on my Legend.

I replaced my front skewer for an unrelated reason and the noise disappeared.

I would have sworn it was coming from pedals or bottom bracket.

Give it a try.

[vaxn8r]

Nearly the same noise drove me effin crazy on my Legend.

I replaced my front skewer for an unrelated reason and the noise disappeared.

I would have sworn it was coming from pedals or bottom bracket.

Give it a try.
Yes, try some new wheels.

Try some new shoes/cleats.

Replace all cables and housing.

Try a different crank if possible.

All else fails, take it completely down, repaint the dang thing and rebuild it.

Been there.

[Volant]

I had a similar thing happen a while back, I finally decided to strip the entire bike and rebuild - guess what, same thing happened on rebuild with all new drivetrain. O-k-a-y, so back at it, on the second go-around (putting original parts back on), when placing the seat post back in, I noticed a spot on the end of the post that was worn - very small, smaller than a pin-head. I remember thinking, "You got to be &@#!'n me?!" I placed a different (slightly shorter) post in and voila, noise gone. I couldn't believe it because I'd swear it was coming from the bottom bracket! Nope, it was the seatpost rubbing up against the inside of the seat tube.

[fierte_poser]

Try different clamping forces on the front and rear QR skewers.

Try different QR skewers.

[H1449-6]

I feel your pain. The elusive squeak sucks.

[keevon]

I ruled out shoes/cleats by riding my other bike with the same shoes. No creaks. Cables/housing are fairly new, but I might disassemble and lube the housing ends where they enter the ferrules.

I'll try swapping out the front wheel and QR's.

I'll also try completely removing the seatpost and riding around the block.

If things persist, I can try swapping out the crank.

All excellent suggestions so far. Thanks guys.

[thwart]

Usually this will show as a scratch or line on the bottom bracket itself, but I've had a similar "symptom" with too long a screw attaching the cable guide on the bottom of the frame... with significant torque on the crank it would contact the bottom bracket, producing a click.

Doubt that that is it, but thought I would throw it out there...

[hokoman]

i had a tick that drove me nuts on my serotta ti... i did everything i knew including replacing the bb and even the pedals (both very expensive record bb and titanium zeros) - i still had the tick and it drove me nuts..... i had the first generation record carbon cranks on this bike and even when the bolts were fully tightened to the bottom bracket, there was a little play that would creak like when i stood up on my bike. check the crank and bb connection.... the beautiful record crankset is in my junk drawer now.

[deechee]

ditto. front wheel. my gf's bike had a really annoying creak, only figured it out after I let her try my wheels... go figure.

[vaxn8r]

i had a tick that drove me nuts on my serotta ti... i did everything i knew including replacing the bb and even the pedals (both very expensive record bb and titanium zeros) - i still had the tick and it drove me nuts..... i had the first generation record carbon cranks on this bike and even when the bolts were fully tightened to the bottom bracket, there was a little play that would creak like when i stood up on my bike. check the crank and bb connection.... the beautiful record crankset is in my junk drawer now.
Funny thing. Same experience. I had an '06 Record CF crank. I took everything apart on the bike, including new chainring bolts and reinstalling the PW BB. Nothing helped. I replaced with a new Record UT crank and new BB. Problem solved. Don't know if it was the BB/crank interface or the chainring bolts but one of them.

My '06 PW BB and Record crank are on my closet floor as we speak. Creak is gone.

[benb]

Are those rear carbon seatstays on that bike? If so, are there any microscopic gaps in the bonding to the frame? Can you push/pull on the stays and make the noise?


+1

Try this.. put the bike in the work stand, take the rear wheel out, stand behind the bike, put one arm on each dropout and squeeze... see if that duplicates the creak.

I had this happen with my old Trek.. it was the bonding between the Aluminum and the carbon... I'm also guessing it is possible for a tiny bit of dirt to work it's way into the joint and cause the noise when the bike flexes.

This annoyed me so much it's 100% the reason I asked Serotta to delete the Carbon stays from my Concours despite much pleading on their part that a Serotta would never have this issue due to the way they miter the carbon stays.

I would be real curious to tear one of these mass market frames apart.. my guess is the carbon stays on my Trek and possibly on this Specialized are not cut & mitered to the exact size.. and on large frames the stays do not go all the way to the TT/ST joint and instead they just rely on bonding so they can use the same carbon stays on multiple frame sizes.

[TAW]

I was working on a friend's bike that had the same type of creaking noise, and I thought for sure it was the BB, so we replaced it. The noise ended up coming from the rear brake. When the frame flexed, the rear brake where it attached to the frame was clicking. Never would've believed it was coming from there, but finally found the source by physically flexing the frame without pedaling.

[Gothard]

"-Lightly grease BB axle + reinstall cranks w/ torque wrench."

To me that is a mistake. Remove both cranks, clean and remove very thoroughly all the grease from the axle/crank interface(think window cleaner, squeaky clean and dry tapers), then put the cranks back on.

Took me what, 2 years to find that on the same crankset on my Colnago.

[DRZRM]

I had a similar issue on my old Legend, it may have been the reason I stopped lurking and finally posted for the first time. The dropout was loose on my F-1 fork, but I swear I tried everything else first. Just didn't sound like it was coming from the front. Had to replace the fork.

[Peter P.]

Good; you've already eliminated a lot of possibilities.

Now it's time to REALLY eliminate them.

Swap in an ENTIRELY different set of wheels. They don't even need to be Campy compatible. perform your "press with your foot" test. This should eliminate the wheels.

Now you're going to REMOVE parts of the bike, one at a time, and repeat your test. You should apply your force on the bottom bracket.

Pedals, then crankarms, bottom bracket, front derailleur, seatpost, whatever. Remove them one at a time and repeat your test until the noise disappears.

I know it's a hassle, but it's gotta be done.

Report back with the results.

[keevon]

An update on my creaking issue: it's still not fixed.

Here's what I did today:

- swap out front wheel and front QR
- swap out cranks and chainrings, installed on clean BB axle
- removed rear wheel and flexed seatstays (no creaks)

Standing next to the bike and pushing the driveside crank towards the frame doesn't make the click anymore, but pedaling out of the saddle and swaying the bike side-to-side still does.

I'm thinking it has to be the fork or the headset. Both were new with the frame, which I received NOS in February. It's a 2005 frameset. Is it possible the FSA headset needs reinstalled, or new bearings, or replaced? I don't have much experience with integrated headsets.

[mschol17]

I don't know about integrated headsets, but I had a stubborn creak that was solved by pulling out the fork and regreasing the headset bearings.

Best of luck.

[djg21]

Yu mention that you changed wheels. I was in your boat as of today with a three successive clicks when the cranksrotated. After changing pedals. lubing my cable ends, tightening and lubing chainring bolts, etc, I figured out ithat the cones on my (powertap) rear wheel loosened up -- a lot.

[Sam in VA]

My AeroAl Lemond had a "click" while pedaling and "pushing" on the crank, and I tried most of your solutions to no avail. I finally took it to my LBS, and the mechanic discovered the problem. The end of MTB length seatpost that I hadn't gotten around to cutting was contacting the insides of the seat tube on either side when I flexed the frame while pedaling. Try pulling your seat post and repeating the "push" test on the crank arm.

[regularguy412]

I've been chasing an intermittent, right-side click when pedaling, too. I've taken the BB out, chainrings/bolts out and the pedals. Everything has been anti-seized at any contact point and reinstalled. Still had the click.

Changed wheels (different skewers, too). Still there.

Took the saddle off and inspected. Also took the American Classic Al seatpost clamp completely apart and anti-seized all the interfaces. Click still there.

Tonite, I took the seatpost completely out of the frame and anti-seized the entire inserted length, along with the top four inches of the seat tube.

Will find out tomorrow if that is the source.

Mike in AR:beer:

[keevon]

The creaking ended up being in the fork/headset area. While it's possible that the stock Specialized full-carbon fork is to blame (loose dropout?) I believe the culprit was insufficient preloading on the integrated headset bearings. Two things contributed to this problem:

1) The top headset bearing sits a tad deeper in the head tube than normal, and thus the headset top piece rests partially on the neoprene gasket that gets installed on top of the bearing, not fully on the compression ring as it should. FSA makes microspacers that rest on the compression ring to solve this problem.

2) The stock compression plug sucks. It's an expanding wedge system (similar to some quill stems) without o-rings. When the top cap is tightened, the plug actually slips up in the steerer tube until it hits the cap. This, along with #1 above, prevents adequate preload on the bearings.

I figured this out by swapping in a fork with an aluminum steerer tube and starnut, which really let me crank down on the top cap. Even with the top cap bolt scary-tight (which should have seized the bearings) I could still turn the fork with just the slightest amount of drag. A ride around the block with this setup was creak-free.

So the plan now is to reinstall the headset with a microspacer or two and get a better compression plug. Hopefully the bearings and/or head tube weren't damaged while I was riding around with a slightly loose headset.

Thanks again for all of the suggestions.

[TAW]

Isn't it great when you find the problem? I can tolerate a creak more when I at least know what's causing it. Good job.

[Peter P.]

Thanks for reporting back with your solution!