how to make this forum "better"

[Climb01742]

no one asked me. but i'd like to offer what i believe are constructive suggestions. i wholeheartedly invite others to constructively join in.

1. accept the chaos. the web is chaos. that is its power and beauty. and its downside. paid media is all about controlling your message. the web is all about joining into a partnership with your audience and creating a shared "brand". paid media is a one way street. the web is a two-way commune. its upside is infinitely greater. but it has downsides that paid media doesn't. if controlling its message is paramount to serotta, kill this forum. you'll never be happy with the chaos and shared identity that the web fosters. but know this: if you kill this forum, you will be taking a huge step backward.

2. take the passion out of moderating this forum. passion has a HUGE role and place in the forum, and in evangelizing for the brand. but NOT in moderating the content. hire someone. treat this forum as the brand asset it is, not as a hobby. professionalize how serotta runs it. but don't try to professionalize what the members do. see point one. having a passionate ombudsman for the brand is a brilliant idea. having a passionate moderator, not so much.

3. participate in the forum. the brand would gain a lot if there was a regular, knowledgeable serotta perspective offered. not as the voice of authority or god or the scolding parent threatening to take away the toy if the kids don't play nice. but as a fellow rider, builder, and lover of all things velo. i've had the extreme pleasure of riding with ben. he's a great riding partner. same with brian smith. if someone, or some ones, from serotta was an active member in the discourse about its frames, history, goals, methods and mojo would be improved immeasurably.

4. use the forum membership. ask us questions. try out ideas on us. use us for research. give members new products to test and demo. you have a resource here of knowledge, experience, passion and oddly, yet perhaps most useful, criticism. a brand's critics are often its most helpful source of insights. tap the folks here.

5. understand the limits of ROI. the odds of anyone being able to quantify the value of this forum are small. but that's not the right question. this is: why is every marketer on earth with any sense trying to create a bond with their customers EXACTLY like what you have here?

6. accept that the world has changed. no company 100% owns their brand anymore. there is far greater "power" in letting go than trying to hang on to it. i'd guess that the greatest respect this brand has gained on this forum is from the freedom you've given members here. you were ahead of the curve on that. don't try to go back. it's a loss-loss situation.

7. connect more. reach out more. have more, not less, open houses. have more events. e-mail forum members. engage them as people and riders. embrace not just the chaos, but the humanity and passion behind it. meet your peeps. hang with your peeps. don't blog at us. be among us.

8. keep your promises. here's some tough love. ben, don't tell folks you're going to give a digital fireside chat each week, then bail. either don't start what you can't or won't finish, or follow through with your promise. it's hard to view the stoppage of ben's zen as anything other than disrespect for the forum or a form of pique. neither is beneficial.

9. be wary of free advice. :D

ok, that's my 4 cents. what about others? suggestions?

[shinomaster]

What was Serotta's original vision for this forum?

[Dan Le foot]

Good stuff, Climb.
dan

[vaxn8r]

Climb, I like how you think.

+ + + + +

[bostondrunk]

I hope no one takes offense to this (Climb included), but perhaps the solution is to stop posting threads like this that seem to encourage people to state how -they- think the show should be run.
It's Serotta's show, let them run it, and stop complaining.

[Climb01742]

I hope no one takes offense to this (Climb included), but perhaps the solution is to stop posting threads like this that seem to encourage people to state how -they- think the show should be run.
It's Serotta's show, let them run it, and stop complaining.

no offense taken, BD. the spirit was to go beyond complaining. to offer suggestions. but your POV is thoroughly valid, as well. it's hard for me not to care about the fate of this forum, and (sincerely) the connection it affords me to folks like you. :beer:

[mosca]

I can only speculate that Ben et al. want this forum to be more of an open resource for all kinds of cyclists rather than the "clubhouse" that it generally has been.

I would love for Ben to spell it out for all the regulars here, myself included. I don't see why the forum can't become a better marketing tool for Serotta and a better online resource for everyone.

And yeah, I agree with all of Climb's points - while I think this forum gets way too self-referential sometimes, if someone from the company doesn't step up and lay down the ground rules, the lunatics will be forced to take over the asylum...

[Lifelover]

I hope no one takes offense to this (Climb included), but perhaps the solution is to stop posting threads like this that seem to encourage people to state how -they- think the show should be run.
It's Serotta's show, let them run it, and stop complaining.


+1

There is one thing that I learned rather late in life in regards to giving unsolicited advice/opinions (which I love to do by the way).

If I openly give my advise/opinion and it's not followed, I tend to feel a small twinge of bitterness or "I told you so"ness. Neither is productive for me or the relationship at question.

Serotta (the company and the forum) will flourish or flounder and all we can do is watch and maybe send them some good mojo.

[Ahneida Ride]

On the last "Open House", Serotta really did bail out.

There was a well advertized informal "get together" culminating in a
fantastic reception at Ben's house. All events were well attended by
Serotta Illuminares. (Thanks Ben, Karen and Smiley ! )

I suspect the "Open House" was getting a bit outa hand, similar to the
TdFL.

Both of these events could easily escalate, generating huge numbers of
participants that neither visionary imagined. Having attended both initial
offerings of the "Open House" and TdFl, I can testify that they
were laid back and manageable.

Lake George Village, right up the road, has a Motorcycle Weekend.
it's rather intense. Motorcycles aficionados everywhere. A fun event for
all. Could "Open House" grow exponentially grow to this order of magnitude?
My response is yes ... Is this beneficial to Serotta? Don't ask me ....
I only post here (poser too !) ;)

[1centaur]

(I wrote a longer post and 6 posts intervened. I wiped out a couple of hundred words to keep the pith).

I doubt the original vision is relevant. It has become what it has become: a meeting point for several hundred serious bike riders/cyclists to talk about anything (with as many as several thousand more stopping by occasionally to read).

Climb's challenge is really a personality test and a vision test for Ben and Ben alone.

Value-adding ideas:

Put on a wildest/ugliest paint scheme contest, voted on by forum members (so everybody plays with the paint program). Put on a Best Cycling Bike Wisdom POTM contest to remind people what's great about this forum, and archive past winners. Have the company put every non-standard painted frame in the gallery and have us vote on best looking bike of the month. Have dealers send in build-of-the-month nominees (pictures and weight) for us to vote on. And hey, use a moderator to PM people who are not playing nice in the sandbox and feel free to cut them off.

As to why Ben's Zen has been on hiatus, I wondered about that too. It should be several times a year, not every week - there's not enough to say.

[Kirk007]

in making the forum better. Personal responsibility is a key (and perhaps an eject button for those who prove themselves too irresponsible). So in addition to Climb's thoughts, which I agree with, I offer the following observation and suggestion:

I've been thinking a lot about the threads/posts that seemed to get folks going recently - camelbacks, stem angle, shaved legs, cyclists/bike riders - and see a common thread. First, almost all of posts ask others to comment on an individual choice. A couple things happen. Some folks give level and kind advice; some give advice with an edge; some give sarcasm, and some are simply neanderthals. Someone (often not the original poster) objects to the edgy answer, sarcasm or neanderthal and off we go. It's easy to pin blame on the sarcastic wise crackers and neanderthals and yes that seems partly fair. On the other hand it is oh so predictable. If we ask for opinions on the internet, particularly on something that involves "style" we should be prepared for opinions, good, bad and ugly. The bike rider/cyclist distinction that came up in one of the threads got me thinking about labels and our own personal baggage. I think swoop's distinction was right on; I've been both (at least in my mind), but for many people (me too when I first read it and before I thought it through) the concept of bike rider seemed less than cyclist. Was this swoop or was it ourselves? Me, I think it was the reader's perceptions not swoop's intent.

When we worry about the cool kids, cabal, or whatever we want to label some contributors as, we need to recognize that a lot of that us vs. them that is perceived is just that - our own insecurities and perceptions as much or more than the other poster's intent (although some folks just can't seem to help themselves and perhaps those that repeatedly demonstrate unacceptable conduct that is offensive should be kicked out of the village - note: yes this raises all sorts of questions as to what violates the forum "standard" and who makes that call, which loops back for the need for clearly stated rules of conduct by our host). If we all check our gut feelings for the reason behind the emotions that some posts raise before we respond, we all may be better off.


The majority that post here strike me as not only smart and decent, but very genuine caring folks. Collectively, if we strive to maintain a high level of discourse, and discourage, whether its ignoring or correcting or ultimately having a moderator remove posts (posters) who insist in being uncivil through personal attacks, disrespectful posts etc., I think we can go along way towards returning the forum to what it was. It takes a village to raise a child (or something like that right?).

[M.Sommers]

1). BBD is a gentleman. I could not reply to him in the locked thread. I'm a big BBD fan. :beer:

2). Fixed is my spiritual advisor. I hope that when I run for the Big Office in 2020 my affiliation with Fixed does not come back to haunt me. :beer:

3). I've had the great fortune to share 23 years with Labrador Retrievers. I know how to make Labrador Retriever sounds. I say we go to Pete's house, I use my Labrador Retriever sounds to lure his dog away. We dognap his Lab and create a new user name from which his dog can post; with assurances the Forum stays up, we return said Labrador Retriever. :beer:

4). I need a dose of Swoop. I need him to lay into me for being lazy and not making a full windsor knot this morning. NBA basketball hasn't pulled me in yet, the Celtics are rough on the road, my Yankees stink, the Giro is only televised on Sundays...I need some Swoop. :beer:

[DukeHorn]

When I look at the threads recommendation under this one, I notice there's a 2005 thread by Climb on "self-policing the forums". So maybe you can put part of the blame on the "newer" folks, but sarcasm, confrontation etc. is just part of the internet, whether 2008 or 2005 or 2002 (which is I think pre-Serotta forum days).

[Len J]

While all Climb's suggestions are worthy suggestions on what Serotta could do, I'd like to offer some constructive thoughts on what we, the posters, could do:

1.) Think before we respond
2.) Respond with civility
3.) Give the person you are responding to the benefit of the doubt
4.) Don't add to the noise side of the signal to noise ratio if you don't like it........add to the signal side if you like that side.

IMO, ATMO, YMMV, etc. etc.

Len

[DHallerman]

+ some very large number to Climb's 9 points

In fact, atmo, he's not talking to Serotta only, but to any company that has an online presence -- especially one with a niche audience, like cycling.

Heck, I've cited this message board in various talks about online marketing, cited it positively for how it creates true word of mouth for its product and its product category.

Do you know how rare that it?

(Actually, since you're on this Serotta board reading this, you probably do know.)

Dave, who would be far less Internet-happy if this board went away.

[capybaras]

Good suggestions, Climb. More dancing bananas might help too. :banana:

[dekindy]

Quit making OT posts. That would unclog the forum dramatically and keep more Serotta/cycling threads on the first page. Some days every other post is OT.

Quit posting crash and death notices. There are multiple tragedies a day. I want something here that I cannot get elsewhere.

This is still hands down the best cycling forum that I have found and the one that I check first and always. Heck, I found out more information on my Schwinn Paramount here than all other forums combined.

[david]

no one asked me. but i'd like to offer what i believe are constructive suggestions. i wholeheartedly invite others to constructively join in.

1. accept the chaos. the web is chaos. that is its power and beauty. and its downside. paid media is all about controlling your message. the web is all about joining into a partnership with your audience and creating a shared "brand". paid media is a one way street. the web is a two-way commune. its upside is infinitely greater. but it has downsides that paid media doesn't. if controlling its message is paramount to serotta, kill this forum. you'll never be happy with the chaos and shared identity that the web fosters. but know this: if you kill this forum, you will be taking a huge step backward.

2. take the passion out of moderating this forum. passion has a HUGE role and place in the forum, and in evangelizing for the brand. but NOT in moderating the content. hire someone. treat this forum as the brand asset it is, not as a hobby. professionalize how serotta runs it. but don't try to professionalize what the members do. see point one. having a passionate ombudsman for the brand is a brilliant idea. having a passionate moderator, not so much.

3. participate in the forum. the brand would gain a lot if there was a regular, knowledgeable serotta perspective offered. not as the voice of authority or god or the scolding parent threatening to take away the toy if the kids don't play nice. but as a fellow rider, builder, and lover of all things velo. i've had the extreme pleasure of riding with ben. he's a great riding partner. same with brian smith. if someone, or some ones, from serotta was an active member in the discourse about its frames, history, goals, methods and mojo would be improved immeasurably.

4. use the forum membership. ask us questions. try out ideas on us. use us for research. give members new products to test and demo. you have a resource here of knowledge, experience, passion and oddly, yet perhaps most useful, criticism. a brand's critics are often its most helpful source of insights. tap the folks here.

5. understand the limits of ROI. the odds of anyone being able to quantify the value of this forum are small. but that's not the right question. this is: why is every marketer on earth with any sense trying to create a bond with their customers EXACTLY like what you have here?

6. accept that the world has changed. no company 100% owns their brand anymore. there is far greater "power" in letting go than trying to hang on to it. i'd guess that the greatest respect this brand has gained on this forum is from the freedom you've given members here. you were ahead of the curve on that. don't try to go back. it's a loss-loss situation.

7. connect more. reach out more. have more, not less, open houses. have more events. e-mail forum members. engage them as people and riders. embrace not just the chaos, but the humanity and passion behind it. meet your peeps. hang with your peeps. don't blog at us. be among us.

8. keep your promises. here's some tough love. ben, don't tell folks you're going to give a digital fireside chat each week, then bail. either don't start what you can't or won't finish, or follow through with your promise. it's hard to view the stoppage of ben's zen as anything other than disrespect for the forum or a form of pique. neither is beneficial.

9. be wary of free advice. :D

ok, that's my 4 cents. what about others? suggestions?

yeah, what he said.

besides that, i'm still trying to figure out what the problem is.

[thwart]

Quit making OT posts. That would unclog the forum dramatically and keep more Serotta/cycling threads on the first page. Some days every other post is OT.

Quit posting crash and death notices. There are multiple tragedies a day. I want something here that I cannot get elsewhere.

Different strokes...

For me, that is some of what makes this place human. Nothing but solid uninterrupted bike stuff... uh... no, thanks. Not for me.

Good points, Climb. Most companies would kill for what Serotta has generated here, I would think... but it could be enhanced a little.

[pdxmech13]

Haven't the majority of us always been helpful and trying to have some fun on the side ? Maybe the moderators need some time off and we the people act like caring folks again. I'm not quite sure as what has happened over the last few days, heaven forbid I go on vacation and try to ride my bike somewhere beautiful.

[Charles M]

I like the OT stuff...


(sorry up front) It's the one a day (or more lately) fix / complain threads I could do without.

My suggestion though would be for a few fairly self absorbed folks to lead by example rather than pontification...

[Elefantino]

Geez. I take a day off and come back to TEOT(SF)WAWKI. So, this is what I sent ...

Ben:

Thanks to you, the garage and Russ Howe ... I love my new La Corsa. I bought it, and the used Concours, because of this forum after a three-year absence from being a Serotta owner. You cannot buy the kind of brand loyalty this forum generates. (Well, maybe you do buy it, but it can't cost a lot for a server, at least not compared with the goodwill and giggling-little-girl enthusiasm that is generated here for the brand.) I am such a Serotta dork that I have two stickers on the back window of my minivan.

Sure, there are issues. Every family has the goofy uncle (or aunt) who is an embarrassment to the clan. But good families overcome the goobers and function well. And, despite a great deal of gooberdom here, occasionally egged on by yours truly and others whose sense of humor is often too off the wall, this is a wonderfully functional Web family.

Keep the forum. It's one of the truly wonderful things in the bicycle business, something you can't find anywhere else.

If you do, I promise to buy more stickers for the minivan.

Best,

Mike

[Ray]

Cycling seems to have taken a reduced role in my life lately, so I've been hanging out here a bit less lately. But that's never slowed me down much before and there IS something different going on here. I don't know what it is, but it's a drag because this place has always been something very special (as I can hear Phil Ligget say). It seems like it used to be more free-wheeling and yet also better at self-policing. More heavily moderated now, but less civil somehow, despite Pete's nearly heroic efforts. I don't claim to understand how or why this works like this, but I'm observing it. I don't even know if its a cause and effect relationship or just two unrelated things happening simultaneously. But I have a hunch they're related.

I think way too much about a lot of stuff, but I don't think a whole lot about branding and product identification and marketing and how it's changed in the internet world. Climb knows this stuff really well and I defer to him - his ideas sound right to me. And I know I agree with him on lots of other stuff, so I'd probably agree with him here too, if I thought about it as deeply as he has.

I don't own a Serotta, but I've probably sold a few through very informal word of mouth due SOLELY to this place. The company has a special place in my cycling heart that this forum is responsible for. I'd bet that's true of lots of folks here who are Serotta owners and who aren't. That seems like a very positive thing for the company, but only they can determine how the pros and cons balance out. I hope they find the right balance, where ever that may be.

-Ray

[Louis]

Maybe we should consider cutting back on the hand-wringing and navel-gazing?

.

[rwsaunders]

+1 to Climb and the other bits of insight and wisdom posted in this thread. I've had the pleasure of working as a vendor with the brand, that possibly has one of the most loyal customer bases that one could hope for...HONDA. Check out this link....they get it as ATMO always writes. There's a chance to get it here as well.

http://www.ohio.honda.com/News/homecoming/index.cfm

[Ray]

+1 to Climb and the other bits of insight and wisdom posted in this thread. I've had the pleasure of working as a vendor with the brand, that possibly has one of the most loyal customer bases that one could hope for...HONDA. Check out this link....they get it as ATMO always writes. There's a chance to get it here as well.

http://www.ohio.honda.com/News/homecoming/index.cfm
Interesting. I'm a lifelong Honda buyer. They've earned my loyalty by making consistently excellent products that I almost don't have to think about anymore. I've owned other vehicles that have disappointed me in any number of ways, but never been disappointed with a Honda. But I've never gone to any online Honda place or felt any sense of community with them - they just make great *****. I think bikes are different, but interesting that Honda has also done well with its "community" building.

-Ray