Casting failure on a tubular tire. Frame checklist after the accident

[VectorPi]

Hello

This is my first post on the forum. I have been a lurker since building up my 2006 Legend Ti. It has been an incredible bike for me. All was well till 3 weeks ago. I was riding a 70 mile loop and was ~ 15 miles away from home on my way back. I had a nice tail wind and as such pushing 25+ mph. I was working to maintain speed up a hill, in the drops with more weight over the front wheel, when I felt the front wheel shift and then lock. At that point the wheel became a pivot point. I saw the ground and focused on keeping my head from hitting it. I tried to role into the hit, but my shoulder took the brunt of the force. I end up breaking my left clavicle in a couple places, hitting the inside of both knees on the road( I was still clipped in throughout the accident and after ) and road rash on my back. I slid into the ditch on my back with the bike on me and the saddle. I have inspected the bike the best that I can. What I found was the only thing that made contact with the ground, save me, was the saddle. I destroyed my Thoork saddle. The Easton EC90 seat post was damaged at the collar. My headset was loosened up a bit. My EC90 front wheel is a bit out of true, but not bad. The casing( cotton base strip) on the front tire has pulled away from the rest of the tire. From what I can tell, that pulled away as I was working the bike side to side. After the accident, the I found the tire was stuck between the rim and the brake caliper. I figure that the tire locked up the rim and I had enough weight shifted forward to cause the rotation. Nothing else is damaged or even scratched. How concerned should I be about the frame? The saddle broke apart at the rail, so that hit with quite a bit of force. I would be more concerned with a carbon fiber or aluminum frame, but wanted the opinion of the group.

Thank you for any help

Michael

[Louis]

Bummer. Sorry to hear that.

Just out of curiosity, exactly what part of the tire are you calling the "casting"? Do you mean casing?

[tbushnel]

I am trying to picture what happened (got any pics?). Do you mean the tire casing pulled away from the basetape? Was the tire flat or low on pressure (I am guessing not)? What kind of tire and rim?
Hope you are mending well. I don't have anything intelligent to say about the frame, sorry.
ted.

[VectorPi]

I am talking about the base tape,cotton strip, on the back of the tire( change made to title ). That was still glued in that section to the rim while the rest of the tire was pulled free. The tire was still infated after the accident to at least 100 psi. As the EMS worked on me, the fire dept guys played around with my bike and freed the tire up. But I was in the ditch for 45 minutes on my broken shoulder staring at the front wheel before they got there. So I got a pretty good look at it. It was a miracle that I saved my left shoe. The fire dept guys couldn't figure out how to get my foot out of it. So they were going to cut the shoe off.

I was running my new Easton EC90 Aero wheels with Continental Podium tires. I have run this loop for a couple years. As such I ride it flat out at the beginning of the riding year and at the end just to see if I have improved. I was riding it faster than the previous fall, with the new rims, so I was pretty happy with th results until that point.

[Louis]

It was a miracle that I saved my left shoe. The fire dept guys couldn't figure out how to get my foot out of it. So they were going to cut the shoe off.

That's what you get for using one of those fancy new shoes :p Would't have happend if you'd been wearing your Pro Keds!

So, you rolled the tire. All the tubular fanatics here (I think TooTall is the leeader of that gang) can tell you how to prevent that from happening next time. I would just tell you to ride clinchers...

I bet your frame is fine. Have your LBS check out the fork, front end, and the seat tube / clamp and see what they say.

Good Luck
Louis

[VectorPi]

I was unware that the cotton/cloth backing on the tire could pull off the tire. The glue used the attach the tire held as the cotton backing is still on the rim. I have been riding tubulars for about two years. My normal set of rims are Campagnolo Eurus clinchers. The Eastons are put on to make me feel fast and special events( Ironman Kansas )

[Too Tall]

Very very sorry to hear about your incident and glad you are on the mend too. Hopefully in 6 to 8 weeks you can begin again to workout. In the meantime if you can muster the energy take a good snap shot of the basetape failure for me and post it. It may be that the basetape was never solid due to mfg. or poor storage / age of the tyre. Also, if you glued this tyre what is your process in brief? I've seen basetape comprimised due to over application of glue (too much solvent seeps thru and weakens the basetape / tyre carcass bonding) and using the wrong glue.

Carry on sir.

[oldguy00]

What kind of glue did you use (what brand)? Did you use any cleaners/solvents on the rim prior to mounting?
I've had tape pull off of old tubulars, older than a year and ridden through lots of weather, but it only happend as I was tearing the tire off the rim, not while riding.
The podium is a lowish end tire, I'd put a better tire on those EC90's, either a competition, a Vittoria Corsa, or a Veloflex, but thats still no excuse for this to happen...
Hope you are feeling better soon.

[stevep]

What kind of glue did you use (what brand)? .

key question. some glues eat through.
too bad, hope yr back soon

[Fixed]

bro i'd check the fork out real well
imho cheers

[Polyglot]

Overinflation can also lead to separation of the basetape from the casing. My unscientific findings have also pointed out that carbon rims that don't dissipate heat very well also suffer from this type of problem more often.

[VectorPi]

I used Continental glue. My process of gluing starts with the stretching of the tire on the rim for a couple days. The way that I glued the tires up was I put two coats of glue on the rim itsself with 24 to 30 hours of dry time between. I also put a single layer of glue on the base tape of the tire and allow that to dry. The last step that I do is I apply a thin third coat to the rim and mount the tire after 30 sec of wait time. I check the alignment of the tire and repeat for the other tire. With both on the bike, I pump up the tires to ~120 psi and roll down the driveway on them and reinspect the tires. After that I let the wheels sit for ~30 hours.

I usually run 120 psi in the front tire and 125-130 psi in the rear.


I will try to get some pictures taken of the damage. It is a bit difficult being a south paw and not being able to use that hand. The retraining of the right hand for daily tasks has been challenging. As such I was able to get the bike torn apart to a point, but I am limited in what I can do at this point.

thank you for the replies.

[vaxn8r]

Make sure you get a professional to inspect your frame.

Anything can break sadly, pedal axels, crank arms....anyway, I've had the same thing (I believe) happen to sew ups but I found it on pre-ride inspection and didn't ride them. I don't know if a pre-ride inspection would have caught this but maybe.

[VectorPi]

Pictures of the tire

[oldguy00]

I don't use nearly as much glue as you did, but hard to say if that was the cause of the problem?
I don't apply any to the tire, I just put a thin-medium coat on the rim, wait a half hour, then apply another thin coat, mount tire, inflate a bit, straighten it, inflate to 100 and leave over night.

[Too Tall]

How you feeling Michael? Thanks for the photo. Looks like the base tape is / was properly glue saturated by the manufacturer. Now I wonder if it was stored properly and was the base tape to carcass glue bond ever any good despite it "looking" ok? When you tug on the basetape do other parts want to separate or is this the only bad / sketch spot? All signs at this point suggest there was never a good bond between the basetape/tyre carcass.

Some folks might suggest you never did a decent job preparing the basetape to receive glue as evidenced by exposed untreated cotton basetape. I think that's irrelevant...the basetape stayed put and the tyre came off the basetape. Further, it is less likely you over applied glue to that tyre causing a comprimise of the basetape. From the pics. you were pretty stingy with glue. FWIIW That's about the same amt. of glue I use for commuter wheels.

Do some picking on the remainder of the basetape. Is the remainder solid?

[bhungerford]

You mention improper storage, what would be the ideal storage for tubbies? And isn't there a difference whether the tire is actual rubber or synthetic?

[regularguy412]

I don't use nearly as much glue as you did, but hard to say if that was the cause of the problem?
I don't apply any to the tire, I just put a thin-medium coat on the rim, wait a half hour, then apply another thin coat, mount tire, inflate a bit, straighten it, inflate to 100 and leave over night.

+1 on this method

It's the one I've always used without any issues ( so far ).

Mike in AR :beer:

[VectorPi]

The base tape pulls away from the tire without much effort on my part. Storage wise, I keep my bike in a extra bedroom, no direct sunlight and temps in the 70 to 75 F range.


I am healing fine. The doctor stated that the bone was lined up as well as he could do with a plate and screws. I have a bruise running from my neck down my left peck and arm. I think most of the discomfort is from the muscles and soft tissue damage. Funny thing, most people say, "well you are done with bikes now after this." I can't wait to ride again. The x-rays of my knees showed no damage to the bones and the doc said I could ride inside on a recumbent trainer. So I have been doing that 3 times a week.

After pulling the tire, I checked the Easton EC90 rim. It is a hair out of true exactly were the base tape failed and the tire wanted to meet the brake pad.

[bhungerford]

Glad you don't have to have the plate/screws...my wife had that last summer, and just took it out, she can't wait to get back on her bike. Rest up, the healing will go by quick and you'll be back out soon.

[Gothard]

For reference, I use *much* more glue, but I use my tires to bomb down passes at 50+ with repeated hard braking that make the rims so hot I can't touch them. I would not be confortable with that much glue (for my conditions of riding).

[ClutchCargo]

For reference, I use *much* more glue, but I use my tires to bomb down passes at 50+ with repeated hard braking that make the rims so hot I can't touch them. I would not be confortable with that much glue (for my conditions of riding).

Goth-man -- you mean you would not be comfortable with "that little glue", right? i.e., you would use more glue, given your riding. not trying to be cute here . . . gluing up my first set of tubulars and this thread is resonating, iykwim ! Thanks for clarifying . . .
:)



Ride on!

[Gothard]

Yes, much more glue. I had to pull one last week (a seriously misshapen Competition), and I would not have been able to pull it on the side of the road.
I lost a tubular once about 20 years ago, coming down a pass. Took me 30 minutes to get going, of which 25 to stop shivering.

[bostondrunk]

You mention improper storage, what would be the ideal storage for tubbies? And isn't there a difference whether the tire is actual rubber or synthetic?

Don't store them underwater. :)

I only ever use just half a tube per tire. Never seem to have a problem. I'd chalk this one up to bad luck, not user error.

[bhungerford]

now i know, and knowing is half the battle... :p


would have made me laugh without the smiley

[Too Tall]

Vector you say the basetape pulls away easily right? That's the problem. I'll wager these tyres for one reason or another never had a good chance on your bike. Maybe it was improper storage or some mfg. error. In any case your best bet for the future is to double check the tyres are solid before riding.

FWIIW I store tubular tyres in tupperware and tyres that are on stretching rims are stored in plastic garbage bags.

Glad you are healing fast, you'll be back at it soon :)

[coylifut]

that's so clearly a base tape failure. you did nothing wrong. major bummer and I hope you are back on the bike soon. get a couple sets of eyeballs to ogle your legend, but I'd be surprised it it isn't A OK. Finely crafted Ti bikes are quite sturdy.

take care

[Ahneida Ride]

I was running my new Easton EC90 Aero wheels with Continental Podium tires.

I would NEVER run Conti Tires ....
I've seen to many sidewall issues.

I am glad you are alive. A member of local club was not so fortunate.

Please take care and get well soon.

[coylifut]

I would NEVER run Conti Tires ....
I've seen to many sidewall issues.

I am glad you are alive. A member of local club was not so fortunate.

Please take care and get well soon.

a member of a local club died because of a Continental tire?