Sounds stupid, but what is cycling pain?

[kgreene10]

People talk about suffering through the pain all the time and I know it sounds stupid, but I'm not sure I get it. On hard rides, my legs may give out or my HR flies up too high and I can't breath, but I feel like my engine stops producing power without having any serious pain. If I were in better condition, would I be able to feel more pain before I blow up?

Tell me about your pain.

[3chordwonder]

+1

I think that for a lot of rec riders the word 'pain' is interchangeable with 'the normal sensations associated with maximum physical effort'.

imho.

[saab2000]

People talk about suffering through the pain all the time and I know it sounds stupid, but I'm not sure I get it. On hard rides, my legs may give out or my HR flies up too high and I can't breath, but I feel like my engine stops producing power without having any serious pain. If I were in better condition, would I be able to feel more pain before I blow up?

Tell me about your pain.

Yes. The better shape you are in, the better shape you can get into. Simple as that.

There are times when a rider reaches the limits, but normally we call all do better. For example, I find myself getting into decent shape this year, but still have weight to lose. Lots of it. It won't really come off anymore 'til I make massive sacrifices I am not sure I am willing to make. I enjoy my riding even so. But if I could lose 10-12 Kgs......

But yes, you can ride through the 'pain'. Whatever that means. It means something different for different people. The more you ride hard, the better you can define what it means. And the more you ride hard with other riders, the better you can further define what it means.

The pain/threshold is in the head. Not really in the legs or lungs. There are limits, but they are much higher than you think.

[Your_Friend!]

Kgreene!



I Have Been Lucky!_Enough

To Have Ridden

Up Some Steep_Mountains!

Some_Moments At Speeds

Well Over 8mph!

At These_Times

This Feels Like

Your Whole_Body

Is Filled With Tiny Bits

Broken_Glass!




Love,
Y_F!

[kerrycycle]

Pushing so hard you forget the last few minutes & start to see bright flashes; a.k.a. solo breakaway.

[swoop]

try this... the next time you blow up... don't back off. think of that blow up point as the beginning and instead of seeking the relief that is backing off... just keep going. you'll realize that some of the barriers that you thought were physical and real.. are really arbitrary.

its sort of like david blaine holding his breath for seventeen minutes. you teach yourself that your body is tricking you into shutting down when there's really so much more to squeeze our of it. you can literally go so hard that you get tunnel vision... but you have to learn to not accept the signals to back off. you have to not see them as a threat... and you can't see backing off as relief...

to be honest i think it involves tapping into a relaxed unconstricted anger.... and the gasoline that fuels it is breathing. you have to ram oxygen in.

[William]

try this... the next time you blow up... don't back off. think of that blow up point as the beginning and instead of seeking the relief that is backing off... just keep going. you'll realize that some of the barriers that you thought were physical and real.. are really arbitrary.

its sort of like david blaine holding his breath for seventeen minutes. you teach yourself that your body is tricking you into shutting down when there's really so much more to squeeze our of it. you can literally go so hard that you get tunnel vision... but you have to learn to not accept the signals to back off. you have to not see them as a threat... and you can't see backing off as relief...

to be honest i think it involves tapping into a relaxed unconstricted anger.... and the gasoline that fuels it is breathing. you have to ram oxygen in.


Pushing through the pain. Most of it is mental, and when you begin to feel that you can't push any more, you dig deeper and push through it because unless you've collapsed onto the ground, there is always more to tap into.

t...o be honest i think it involves tapping into a relaxed unconstricted anger.... and the gasoline that fuels it is breathing. you have to ram oxygen in

Aboso-freakin-lutley! I'll talk to myself mentally, push and taunt myself..."Don't you effin stop". "Close that gap" "Don't let them effin catch you dammit..PUSH PUSH!!!!" "Catch that MOfo, get him go go go!!!". I'll push the crap out of myself to go beyond barriers that I thought I had. Sure there will be physical pain, but that's pain from exertion, not from physical injury which is different. Most barriers are ones you create. It's a liberating feeling when you discover that you can push through it.


William

[wasfast]

It's important to define the difference between "good" and "bad" pain. Running out of gas when working at your preceived maximum is a "good" pain. That sort of pain is the body's natural limiter to help prevent permanent injury. Moving that threshold up is what training is.

Bad pains include sharp joint pains, pulled muscles, numb extremities (Johnson, fingers and toes...sounds like a New Jersey law firm..) and other discomforts that shouldn't be there.

My wife wanted to start walking (never exercised in her life) about 15 years ago. We're going up a moderate hill at a decent clip. Her shins were killing her but she thought that doing that was "pushing through the pain". It's definitely not, it's creating injury.

The cliche' that is repeated often from Greg Lemond is "it never gets easier, you just go faster". It's sad but true.

[Too Tall]

I love that expression "easily accessible anger" it is useful to deal with the pain you speak of. What is it? That my friend is your moving fox hole. You get to decide what is and is not your absolute limit + a bit more and will you cross into the unknown territory of pain. What is it? How about riding for many hours on end as hard as you can possibly go doing damage to your body and more knowing you'll push yourself even harder to acheive an honorable result? That's pain my friend. It happens everyday and in many ways. What's yours?

[Fixed]

try this... the next time you blow up... don't back off. think of that blow up point as the beginning and instead of seeking the relief that is backing off... just keep going. you'll realize that some of the barriers that you thought were physical and real.. are really arbitrary.

its sort of like david blaine holding his breath for seventeen minutes. you teach yourself that your body is tricking you into shutting down when there's really so much more to squeeze our of it. you can literally go so hard that you get tunnel vision... but you have to learn to not accept the signals to back off. you have to not see them as a threat... and you can't see backing off as relief...

to be honest i think it involves tapping into a relaxed unconstricted anger.... and the gasoline that fuels it is breathing. you have to ram oxygen in.

classic swoop at his best +1

[Big Daddy]

At this week's Tuesday night Worlds...Tilford and crew decided to show up to sharpen up for JM this weekend. They put 8 seconds into us...3 laps to go, i rallied the team and went to the point. Last lap it was me on the arrowhead...i buried myself completely and going into turn 3 of 4, the tunnel vision was pressing in from both sides HARD. I love those moments. your body says "owie", but inside you know the motor has more...keep going through.

BTW...i could only take 2 seconds out of them.

[shoe]

speaking of accessible anger and pain..i once dated a girl who wasn't angry enough to be a good mtb'er or atleast that is what my friend said...i think he might have been right though...dave

[ClutchCargo]

try this... the next time you blow up... don't back off. think of that blow up point as the beginning and instead of seeking the relief that is backing off... just keep going. you'll realize that some of the barriers that you thought were physical and real.. are really arbitrary.

its sort of like david blaine holding his breath for seventeen minutes. you teach yourself that your body is tricking you into shutting down when there's really so much more to squeeze our of it. you can literally go so hard that you get tunnel vision... but you have to learn to not accept the signals to back off. you have to not see them as a threat... and you can't see backing off as relief...

to be honest i think it involves tapping into a relaxed unconstricted anger.... and the gasoline that fuels it is breathing. you have to ram oxygen in.

and then there's "unrelaxed constricted anger" !

:D

[avalonracing]

try this... the next time you blow up... don't back off. think of that blow up point as the beginning and instead of seeking the relief that is backing off... just keep going. you'll realize that some of the barriers that you thought were physical and real.. are really arbitrary.


He beat me to the punch with this.
If you don't feel the pain it is because you are stopping before it starts. Just be careful not to injure yourself. Try riding with some riders that are much better than you and don't let them get away... no matter what*

*that said, do not injury yourself and DO NOT blame me for any injury. I'm just trying to help you understand this elusive "pain" that you have been so sadly missing :rolleyes:

[Elefantino]

This Feels Like

Your Whole_Body

Is Filled With Tiny Bits

Broken_Glass!
Well put, Pengie.

[Clydesdale]

Nerd Alert!
Wisdom from Star Trek ...

Spock and pain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20xg52VEpRA)
Spock - "I am a Vulcan. Pain is a thing of the mind, the mind can be controlled..."
Kirk - "You're only half Vulcan, what about your human half?"
Spock - "It is proving to be an inconvenience."

[Tom]

I've said it before. Pain doesn't go away when you stop doing what causes it. Discomfort does.

Just being pedantic...

But on topic - this spring I've just lost my hammer. I haven't been able to do what I could before without noticing how uncomfortable I am. I used not to notice but this year so far I do. My head simply won't get me going when things get tough. I think I know why... I've gone past the point of good stress at work to where I'm just mentally tired all the time. I'm still riding as much but little ring rides are a staple.

It supports Swoop's point. It's really all in your head.

[swoop]

when you put yourself deep in the coffin.... it can take a days to feel not in pain. there's a great line from ralph aldag in that movie about every dot on the polka dot jersey representing a year off his life for the suffering.

when i was riding around with the rabobank guys a couple a years ago the thing they were being canderous about was the toll the suffering was taking on them. karsten kroon said to me, 'its all the suffering that makes it (being a pro biker) so hard'.

when you really strip it down, the best guys have the physiology to go fast, they train right, they diet, the live it, and they have an uncanny ability to hurt themselves. cycling is in many ways as violent and brutal as boxing.

i poached the picture from hatch's blog. i know she gets it just cuz she sees the beauty in this. its a heightened state of consciousness... flecha didn't crash. he stopped pedaling after the finish line... its the suffering that gives this sport its nobility... and it didn't stop when he laid down on the tarmac.

[Tom]

It might not stop hurting right away. Could be days. But if I did it to myself, it's just discomfort.

[Fixed]

'.

cycling is in many ways as violent and brutal as boxing.
more so imho

[chuckred]

People talk about suffering through the pain all the time and I know it sounds stupid, but I'm not sure I get it. On hard rides, my legs may give out or my HR flies up too high and I can't breath, but I feel like my engine stops producing power without having any serious pain. If I were in better condition, would I be able to feel more pain before I blow up?

Tell me about your pain.

I've pushed myself in mtb races to the point that my quads and hamstrings both cramped up at the same time on a climb, leaving me with no choice but to fall over sideways and roll on the ground until they un-locked. Then get up and slowly start moving towards the finish until I could pedal again. Mentally, I wanted to keep going, but physically, the brakes were on.

As I recall, it was pain... but I got over it.

[swoop]

i hear that steve hampsten's brother used to push himself so hard motorpacing that he passed out on the bike. that's takes a lot of desire to ignore all those signals from the body telling you to back off. talk about keeping you hand over the flame and watching the skin bubble.

cyclists have a sadistic streak in them. you can't go fast unless you can hurt yourself. its not discomfort yourself, its hurt yourself. i don't get faster over time... instead you develop the capacity to hurt myself and not back off.

[M.Sommers]

It's when your new Rapha jersey gets crapped on by a bird at high speed.

[ecl2k]

FWIW the physiologic basis for pain is probably not lactic acid accumulation during anaerobic exercise.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition/16run.html

[swoop]

there is a neurological component as well as a biological one. i think the relationship between suffering and managing the suffering is as much about training the body's systems as it is reprogramming patterns of thought.

[cadence231]

there is a neurological component as well as a biological one. i think the relationship between suffering and managing the suffering is as much about training the body's systems as it is reprogramming patterns of thought.


I see this "flaw" in myself...need of reprogramming. I usually want to and do run away from troubles in my life...I panic. When racing/training I get all sorts of negative thoughts that race through my head that are not condusive to getting the job done. Much self-doubt and defeating internal dialogue.
On the bike or not some days are better than others (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88UmKXyQ3w8).

[Kevan]

Tell me about your pain.

buy more bikes.

[M.Sommers]

The worst pain, regret, is a result of trying to avoid pain.

[WadePatton]

Get a singlespeed mountain bike... :banana:

[swoop]

I see this "flaw" in myself...need of reprogramming. I usually want to and do run away from troubles in my life...I panic. When racing/training I get all sorts of negative thoughts that race through my head that are not condusive to getting the job done. Much self-doubt and defeating internal dialogue.
On the bike or not some days are better than others (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88UmKXyQ3w8).
sounds to me like you're ripe for a breakthrough. push yourself.

[William]

I'm not a psychologist and I won't pretend to be one. All I know is that I always had this need/urge to be near the front of the action. What ever it took to be there in the thick of it so I could cover breaks, make my own when the opportunity was right, or cover for team mates that were off the front. Do what it takes and never quit. Like Cool Hand Luke when he wouldn't stay down, as long as I had something to push, I push it. Now, I wasn't stupid so I would pick and choose my moments, and try to recover when I could. But when the hammer has to come down, I'm in. Does that make me sadistic? :confused: :)

As Swoop said, in racing it takes that type of mentality, but you also have to have the genes/body type to create power and recover quickly better and faster than you opponents. The brain comes in to decide the right moves to take and cover, but also to help push you through those imaginary barriers. I'm paraphrasing here but the difference between elite Olympic level athletes and good athletes in any given sport is the mental edge.


Time to get keyed up and go train one of my guys. Get him to push farther then he has previously.



William

[Tom]

And there's another point - there's the mental makeup that makes you able to get yourself up on the sharp end no matter what it feels like, the mental makeup that allows you to kill yourself day after day going up gigantic hills and getting the polka dot jersey and the mental makeup that allows you to ride hundreds and hundreds of miles at a time for way longer than your body wants to stay awake much less on the bike - and my theory is that they are not interchangeable.

These are only three examples of the mental makeup thing. I think that as a person has physical gifts in combination that allow them to do something they also have mental gifts in combination that allow them to do something. These things are different, matching up the mental to the physical is when things get good.

I know somebody that tests incredibly well when they check them out for stuff - XC skiing, biking, rowing - and is pretty good at these sports. This person is capable of killing themselves when there is no distraction to take their mind off it. They just say they don't think about it, they put that part of themselves somewhere else. That just amazes me.

[swoop]

william, i'd disagree a little on the semantics.... but i'll leave it at that. i think we're talking about different things... and i can't identify with what you wrote!
rather than break it down.... i'll just beg to differ a little but support you ...

...
i'd add...
i know the one thing i don't have as a cyclist is talent. i don't have a shred of talent for the bike. i never will. it can't be trained in and it has nothing to do with categories.
the guy i rode with yesterday had talent. i don't. i can bull through some things and train really effectively and rely on that to a small degree. i can suffer like a pig.
and i can just always hit the gas and refuse to back off... and hope it fakes some guys out...
fortunately you don't need talent to do well locally. you just have to train and hope you catch a break.

but man, i dont have a shred of talent in me on the bike. most of the folks i know don't either...
...
sitting on the front of the group doesn't have much to do with suffering... its just being vigilant and efficient.

..
the mental part i was speaking to are the neuronal pathways one forges in
the brain with regards to shutting down and the amount of repetition (ie, intervals) it takes to forge new pathways to habituate the brain to not shutting the body down under stress. its less an emotional process and more a behavioral reshaping.

[Len J]

..
the mental part i was speaking to are the neuronal pathways one forges in
the brain with regards to shutting down and the amount of repetition (ie, intervals) it takes to forge new pathways to habituate the brain to not shutting the body down under stress. its less an emotional process and more a behavioral reshaping.

Spot on!

There is an uncomfortable place between pain and real damage that we can learn how to inhabit where our peak performances come from....it's a learned behavior to survive and thrive there. One of the things a trained athlete trains is his/her ability to thrive in this pain filled place and to really recognize what he/she can survive. (It's also a metaohor for life which is another reason I love it)

The hardest athletic thing I've ever done was running the last 5 1/2 miles/30 minutes of my third marathon with absolutly nothing left in the tank but mental toughness....it took me months to fully recover....but the residual confidence about what I can survive lasted much longer than the pain.


Len

[Fixed]

the pain of not being able to ride
can hurt too imho
cheers

[johnnymossville]

I've been replaying the race I did last Saturday in my head and where things went wrong. Looking back I find it "almost" amusing that during a solo break-away attempt somehow I managed to last long enough for my wife and kids to see me out there in front of the charging field. Yeah, lame, I know.

Right after "The Job was Done" the field not only reeled me in, but proceeded to drop me, leaving me to finish the last 10 miles or so alone. Oh I was in pain for sure, but I gotta wonder. If my wife and kids were just another mile up the road past the next hill, and into the tailwind/downhill section, how much more successful would my break have been? LOL! It did manage to blow apart the field into a couple smaller chunks.

Nice thing about racing, there's next week's race and I hope I learned something last week.

[Tom]

Funny, but you reminded me of one of the races where I couldn't hang with the front group. When I went over it in my head afterward to figure out where I went wrong I didn't think I didn't train right or anything like that - I decided I simply didn't try hard enough when it really began to hurt like hell on the hill where I came off the back. I concluded I could have kept up if I only tried harder.

Whenever I find my hammer again I think I'm going to take a run at a few big hills around here and see just where I break. It ought to be fun.

[flux]

could be so many things.

[M.Sommers]

Being a Chicago Cubs fan = pain
Watching Star Trek: The Motion Picture 1979 = pain
Watching Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan = joy
Listening to stories from nieces and nephews = joy
Cycling to your utmost limit = pain and joy

Oh and this hurts too:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=45248

[TimD]

I gave up just this morning.

We were six. At the 20-mile mark I did a long (4 minute) pull at 24-30 on a narrow & busy road. We turned left onto the final 3 km fast section and I slowed down to get on the back. The 2nd guy (a former 2) had other ideas and quickly went back up to 28. I gapped to 100', got back on, rotated to the front, pulled for 20s, came off, and couldn't hang on the tail of the three remaining.

Or could I have?

I'm 49, I don't race, and I'm not fat. Try harder or be happy?

[Fixed]

I gave up just this morning.

We were six. At the 20-mile mark I did a long (4 minute) pull at 24-30 on a narrow & busy road. We turned left onto the final 3 km fast section and I slowed down to get on the back. The 2nd guy (a former 2) had other ideas and quickly went back up to 28. I gapped to 100', got back on, rotated to the front, pulled for 20s, came off, and couldn't hang on the tail of the three remaining.

Or could I have?

I'm 49, I don't race, and I'm not fat. Try harder or be happy?
if your bros are going to dump you don't pull so long and when they did don't pull through again till you recover and rest imho

but i might do the same thing the cat 2 did after a strong cat pulled for a couple of miles pay back for the macho cat pulling for to long see ya
cheers

[andy mac]

a lot of pro/fulltime and even dedicated athletes often carry a number of injuries for a seson or perhaps forever.

in ski racing everyone it was pretty rare for us not to be carrying a few injuries.

physio, icing, massage, shots, trying to block it out etc was the norm.

[thwart]

For some sick reason, it seems the more pain (the non-injury kind, anyway) during a work out, the more endorphins wind up running around in my head afterward. Most of the time, anyway.

So... want the buzz? Do the work.

YMMV.

[Louis]

In addition to cycling, I also row (erg) and it's interesting to compare the two. (Even at my relatively low level.) I find rowing more challenging psychologically, because on each and every stroke (especially in the last 1000 meters) you have to make a conscious decision about how hard to push/pull. On the bike, it seems to be more of a "flow" thing, and because they're happening so quickly, I'm not deciding on each and every pedal stroke how hard to go, even at low cadences when climbing. The battle against yourself just seems different in the two activities.

Louis

[jeffg]

Lose 12 pounds in two days due to food poisoning ...

Ride 200+ miles and climb 20,000 feet two days later, hallucinate for a while, keep riding and watch the road melt in front of you and keep pedaling, finish the ride and pass out in the car before you can try to drive home ... be dizzy for days afterward.

Bliss and suffering all in one ...

I am not sure I can suffer in Swoop's way since that it shorter and more intense

[swoop]

In addition to cycling, I also row (erg) and it's interesting to compare the two. (Even at my relatively low level.) I find rowing more challenging psychologically, because on each and every stroke (especially in the last 1000 meters) you have to make a conscious decision about how hard to push/pull. On the bike, it seems to be more of a "flow" thing, and because they're happening so quickly, I'm not deciding on each and every pedal stroke how hard to go, even at low cadences when climbing. The battle against yourself just seems different in the two activities.

Louis

watch these sprints ....

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5w9z_la-legende-du-tour-en-bretagne_events

[KJMUNC]

Slept in the back of my truck the night before in a sleeping bag, woke up and rode 100mi of steep n deep climbs capped by the grind up Brasstown in a freaking Spring snow storm. Like an idiot I only had short sleeves and a 23 on the back as I'd already packed the rest of my gear in the moving truck. I have no memory of the climb whatsoever and came to about an hour later, completely hypothermic in the back of my truck with the heat blasting, stuffed into a sleeping bag while a buddy poured Ommegang down my throat to try and get me to revive. Missed the race completely, but it was a glorious day in the hurt locker.

Swoop is right.....it's all in your head and you can go a lot longer than you think you can. Most don't have the ability to trick their body into that extra gear often, but when you do it's a whole other world.

[Clydesdale]

playing around on youtube and found some vids I thought might apply to this thread...

here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-KueBsUAEo&feature=related) (check related videos for some old footage - great stuff)

here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkv8krkrRNM&feature=related)

or here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLmbkBqpC4o&feature=related) (from 2:45 on, the faces tell the story)