F3 fork, what's the big deal?

[kgreene10]

I'm not a doubter, just uncertain. What's the difference between the F3 and, for instance, the Ouzo Pro that is about 60% the cost? Is it in the characteristics of the carbon used, the layup, or some other aspect of the design? Do the more experienced among you find a performance difference between them? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Mikej]

And a fancy marketing guy to back that "S". I think they are just about the same, w/ ti drop outs on the "S" fork - same co.

[Pete Serotta]

I have used both and they both work for my type of riding...BUT the SEROTTA are built in US, by the gang in CA and NY, and the quality control is second to none. The SEROTTAs are more adaptable to the build being done (custom) and have a lifetime warranty (yeah TREK does also ;) )

Bottom line, ride which works for you - THey are both good. I have voted with my own $$s for my son in law and nephew upgrades to an F3,

The folks who I trust and have lots more knowledge than me - say it is the best fork out there.....yeah what that means to the average rider I do not know.

I have an F2 on my Legend (Reynolds enhanced) and it is great. If it had to be replaced, I would replace it with an F3.

We are lucky that we have so many great choices. Go with the one that you like best!!! :cool: :cool: We are dealing with very little logic ($$) when we outfit our bikes....

[benb]

They are the same fork except for the following differences... Both were designed by Serotta and are manufactured by Reynolds.

- F3 available in additional/different rakes
- F3 not available in 1" steerer
- F3 available in 3 stiffness levels
- F3 10.5 has a longer/beefed up steer tube
- F3 has Ti dropouts & crown race (IIRC these are installed/bonded in Saratoga as I remember seeing them in the oven, probably have a picture)
- F3 is finished in Saratoga after being manufactured by Reynolds (someone from the factory could correct me here but I remember seeing raw forks in the factory that still had Reynolds manufacturing stickers on them)

The Ti dropouts/crown may consist of a large portion of the price difference over the Ouzo Pro with aluminum dropouts/crown. The finishing is probably more expensive too. Serotta has a lot of fancy little Ti bits they put on their stuff which look pretty expensive, and all are machined in Saratoga. The fork pieces are no exception.

I'd be interested in knowing which F3 stiffness level the Ouzo corresponds with.

Fantastic forks all around.

[chrisroph]

i had an ouzo on my spectrum. great fork. i bought an f3 for a song and have been riding that for a while. great fork. the f3 feels a little stiffer torsionally. i think its an 8.5. i could easily go back to the ouzo. i would not pay the msrp difference unless i was buying a new serotta, which is far from a budget purchase but instead is a purchase motivated by trying to get the very best custom bike available, in which case i would pop for the fork spec'd by the manufacturer.

[pdxmech13]

the F3 is the steel fork of the carbon world.
The only fork available in different stiffnesses and multiple rakes.
The ouzo is a fine fork however if you were getting a new serotta why not how it was inteneded by the great desinger ?

[kgreene10]

That is fascinating information. I would have expected to hear about the performance virtues of the F3 compared to the Ouzo Pro given the dramatic difference in price.

Due to Serotta's generosity, I unexpectedly ended up with an F3 on my Fierte IT. It rides wonderfully, but I didn't know that I was riding on such a status symbol. I guess I now feel like a bride-to-be with the biggest rock.

[benb]

The thing with the difference is Serotta's frame geometries assume you are using one of their forks.

I suspect the Alpha Q forks have similar rake to the S-fork and F3.

The ouzo pro is available in multiple rakes, and it's a set of rakes that overlaps with Serotta's forks, but they are not the exact same rakes.

I would surmise if your Fierte had an Ouzo instead of one of the Serotta forks or the Alpha Q, the rake would be slightly off and the ride wouldn't be quite the same.

If you ordered a custom frame and could specify an Ouzo Pro my guess is they would change the geometry to match it. And at that point why are you buying a Serotta? You're probably changing it enough so that it doesn't ride like a Serotta?

It's the sum of the parts which would make your bike rider better then one with an Ouzo Pro which is itself a very nice fork. If you had a frame specifically designed for the Ouzo Pro, the F3 might be a downgrade as you'd again compromise something regarding geometry.

If you were looking for something more nebulous if you go look at reviews of the Ouzo you will sometimes see people complain it is whippy or flexible, but you won't hear people complain about the F3 that way, likely because they are carefully matched to a frame and the stiffness level is chosen based on the riders weight.

[vaxn8r]

The OP is the sweet spot on CF forks for 99% of people. For those that want custom rakes or demand other stiffness layups, or feel like an F3 represents "the best" then get an F3.

I have an OP on my Legend and I've never thought it wasn't all that and more. No regrets.

[Mikej]

[QUOTE=Serotta_...BUT the SEROTTA are built in US, by the gang in CA and NY, and the quality control is second to none.


So the OUZO is not made in the US? Doesn't Serotta own the Reynolds carbon facility?

[chrisroph]

If you were looking for something more nebulous if you go look at reviews of the Ouzo you will sometimes see people complain it is whippy or flexible, but you won't hear people complain about the F3 that way, likely because they are carefully matched to a frame and the stiffness level is chosen based on the riders weight.


atmo a well designed and built steel fork rides better than any carbon fork, but at a weight penalty. hence, to some people, and compared to a good steel fork, all carbon forks are whippy and flexible. the f1 is the most steel like carbon fork i've ever ridden, but it weighs as much as a steel fork. the f3 to my butt meter seems more solid than op, but it is nothing much like a good steel fork.

[Ahneida Ride]

I bumped into a guy once on a local ride. He claimed to have made the
F1 for Ben.

He claimed that he tested it against steel forks. That is, the F1 had to
be at least as stong as a decent steel fork. That was the spec. on the F1.

The rumor mill seems to bear that statistic out. The F1 is a brute.
I love my F1. Hope I never have to replace it.

[Sandy]

I bumped into a guy once on a local ride. He claimed to have made the
F1 for Ben.

He claimed that he tested it against steel forks. That is, the F1 had to
be at least as stong as a decent steel fork. That was the spec. on the F1.

The rumor mill seems to bear that statistic out. The F1 is a brute.
I love my F1. Hope I never have to replace it.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought that Dave Kirk had something to do with the design of the F1 fork. I know that the DKS rear was deveoped by Dave.


Sandy

[catulle]

I'm not a doubter, just uncertain. What's the difference between the F3 and, for instance, the Ouzo Pro that is about 60% the cost? Is it in the characteristics of the carbon used, the layup, or some other aspect of the design? Do the more experienced among you find a performance difference between them? Inquiring minds want to know.


Well, ooops, never mind...


(Dario digs Ouzo. I dig Dario...)

[Pete Serotta]

Serotta (since they bought POWAY in CA) makes the F3. Serotta does not make OP - they only make forks for themselves. The F3 was also designed by SEROTTA not Reynolds.

I think some of the info on the thread is talking about the F2 fork which has similarities to the OP. F3 is an entirely different fork than F2.


[QUOTE=Serotta_...BUT the SEROTTA are built in US, by the gang in CA and NY, and the quality control is second to none.


So the OUZO is not made in the US? Doesn't Serotta own the Reynolds carbon facility?

[benb]

When did this transition to Poway happen?

I have to look through my photos.. exactly a year ago tomorrow I visited and saw *F3* forks that said made by Reynolds on them in the factory, and no one tried to tell me Serotta was manufacturing those forks. (I'd be curious if I pulled my fork out of the frame if there is still a "Manufactured by Reynolds" sticker on the steer tube.) One of the guys I talked to did give me some rundown of the F1/F2/F3 history but even he didn't seem to know the full story.

My F3 also came with a "Reynolds Ouzo Pro" compression plug. Unless my LBS stuck that in there as a joke I've always assumed it came from Serotta.

No justification on price is needed for me.. it's just a weird relationship and no one has really ever posted a full explanation.. I don't really have any trouble believing the extra finish work, Ti bits, extra stiffnesses/rakes, and reduced manufacturing numbers fully explain the price difference.

Would be a great topic for a "Zen from Ben" column. How about a full history of the forks and business relationships with respect to carbon manufacturing? Something along the lines of Dave Kirk's excellent post about the history of Serotta and Fat Chance.

[Blastinbob]

I'd be interested in knowing which F3 stiffness level the Ouzo corresponds with.

Fantastic forks all around. IMO the 6.5 is the closest comparison.

[Ahneida Ride]

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought that Dave Kirk had something to do with the design of the F1 fork. I know that the DKS rear was developed by Dave.
Sandy

Sandy,

Dave probably had input to the F1 design and design specifications.
But I do believe this guy make them. I think they were made locally.

This is going back 3-4 years, so the details are foggy. But I did attempt
to verify some of the information he imparted to me and indeed it did
check out.

He would subject a steel fork to stress till it broke and made sure the
F1 would accept the same abuse.

I've heard stories of bent frames and no visible damage to the F1.

Hey it is all rumor mill. I wish Ben would offer some geneology of the F1.

[Sandy]

Sandy,

Dave probably had input to the F1 design and design specifications.
But I do believe this guy make them. I think they were made locally.

This is going back 3-4 years, so the details are foggy. But I did attempt
to verify some of the information he imparted to me and indeed it did
check out.

He would subject a steel fork to stress till it broke and made sure the
F1 would accept the same abuse.

I've heard stories of bent frames and no visible damage to the F1.

Hey it is all rumor mill. I wish Ben would offer some geneology of the F1.

When I read your post again I realized that you said the guy made them. I was wondering whether you meant that the guy actually built them or designed tham. I wonder if he was the only one at the time that actually made all the F1 forks. I agree with you about the fork. I really liked it, better than the F2, not sure about the F3 yet. Actually very hard to compare any of them- different bikes, materials, wheels. The F1 just seemed to stay so planted on the ground with little road buzz.


Sandy

[Pete Serotta]

Announced = November 2, 2006

On January 1, 2007, the Poway, CA facility operated by Utah based MQC will become a part of NY based Serotta Competition Bicycles.

The transition is the result of months of discussions between the collective management teams of MQC and Serotta. Ben Serotta and Dean Gestal the respective CEO's of the firms stated, "Our companies have enjoyed an excellent working partnership of more than five years. At the core of the relationship has been our honest and open dialog, in which we've shared some of our long range strategic plans and concerns with each other."

Serotta's annexation of the Poway facility stems directly from these talks as Serotta sought to increase its potency in composites while MQC continues to both strengthen and streamline its operations by concentrating efforts on its two main facilities in Salt Lake, UT and Hangzhou, China.

As part of the agreement, Serotta will retain employment of the small dedicated Poway staff headed by lead engineer Mike Lopez. Under the agreement, Lopez, a composites industry guru, will continue to provide engineering and consulting services to MQC and its customers on an 'on-call' basis. According to Lopez, "this coordinated transition is a win, win, win result for all parties involved."

About Serotta Competition Bicycles
Serotta Competition Bicycles an American company based in Saratoga Springs, NY, has been leading the world in custom bicycle design and handcrafted manufacturing since 1972.

Over the past two years, Serotta has bucked global trends by bringing a growing number of operations to in-house status and has been seeking the right path to do the same in composites. "We're fanatical about controlling our own destiny, says Founder Ben Serotta, "and for us, the formula for success includes controlling as much of the R&D and manufacturing processes as possible so we're absolutely thrilled to be adding the composites 'A' Team to the Serotta roster.

About MacLean Quality Composites
MacLean Quality Composites has successfully defied industry preconceptions about how materials can be implemented in high performance sports and industrial applications. By leveraging ingenuity and know-how, MacLean Quality Composites is able to design and manufacture best in class carbon fiber products. This unique capacity to shape materials technology is the essential ingredient in some of the most sought-after frames, forks, wheel sets, and components in the cycling industry, including Trek, Specialized, Serotta, Seven Cycles, Independent Fabrication and, of course, Reynolds' own brand of performance equipment. For more information about MacLean Quality Composites visit www.macqc.com or for information on Reynolds products visit www.reynoldscycling.com.

[Ahneida Ride]

When I read your post again I realized that you said the guy made them. I was wondering whether you meant that the guy actually built them or designed tham. I wonder if he was the only one at the time that actually made all the F1 forks. I agree with you about the fork. I really liked it, better than the F2, not sure about the F3 yet. Actually very hard to compare any of them- different bikes, materials, wheels. The F1 just seemed to stay so planted on the ground with little road buzz.
Sandy

He claimed to be the Builder. I got the impression he was the sole builder.
I suspect both he and Serotta co-worked the design.

I vaguely recall that a small group of talented women built them, something about having small yet dexterous agile hands.

He made a big deal about how strong and bullet proof the F1 was.

and that's about all I remember.

[Mr. Butterworth]

The F3 is the sh**. I have one on my Coeur d'Acier and another on my non-Serotta because I love the way it rides so much. Very smooth, precise and it has pretty, functional dropouts. I also love the way it looks.

My understanding is that the fellow who invented the Ouzo Pro fork is the same who developed the F3, at least in terms of engineering it. I believe the design was a Serotta original...

[yarg]

I have met the guy who built the f1 also. I forget his name but the company is general composites in westport ny. I met him at a little annual team triathlon he put(s) together up there (canoe, run, bike). Very nice guy, gave me a short tour of the shop afterwards. Story was that he got squeezed out of the fork deal after the f1 by the economics of production in US, you know the story. His company is into medical carbon fiber stuff, and at the time (~3-4yrs ago) they also made some awesome paddles.

[amator]

The thing with the difference is Serotta's frame geometries assume you are using one of their forks.

I suspect the Alpha Q forks have similar rake to the S-fork and F3.

The ouzo pro is available in multiple rakes, and it's a set of rakes that overlaps with Serotta's forks, but they are not the exact same rakes.

I would surmise if your Fierte had an Ouzo instead of one of the Serotta forks or the Alpha Q, the rake would be slightly off and the ride wouldn't be quite the same.

If you ordered a custom frame and could specify an Ouzo Pro my guess is they would change the geometry to match it. And at that point why are you buying a Serotta? You're probably changing it enough so that it doesn't ride like a Serotta?

It's the sum of the parts which would make your bike rider better then one with an Ouzo Pro which is itself a very nice fork. If you had a frame specifically designed for the Ouzo Pro, the F3 might be a downgrade as you'd again compromise something regarding geometry.

If you were looking for something more nebulous if you go look at reviews of the Ouzo you will sometimes see people complain it is whippy or flexible, but you won't hear people complain about the F3 that way, likely because they are carefully matched to a frame and the stiffness level is chosen based on the riders weight.

i had a 2005 ouzo pro and i swopped it out with a new ouzo peleton.
ive found the ride slightly stiffer and less flexi when im off the saddle
This is despite people commenting that they are the the same fork. YMMV.
the pro peleton is slightly wider and more aero... and heavier